Question for Christians about Heaven and Hell
Simple question - want answers. No stalling, poetry, symbolism, excuses, etc.
Assuming you are good enough to get into heaven, clearly you have friends and relatives who are not Christian, or are the wrong variety or who act in such a way that would piss God off enough to send 'em to hell. How could you possibly be happy in heaven knowing people you love and care about are being horribly tortured forever, and how could you not resent or hate God for doing that to them (no trying to say they did it to themself - belief isn't a choice and ultimately God would have many options other than torture in hell.)
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A christian once said that in heaven god makes us forget about our family/friends that are burning in hell. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
Robert Green Ingersoll once argued that if deep down someone literally believed in the exclusivist doctrine that only Christians went to heaven, they would be either driven insane, or a depraved physcopath to begin with. The notion that hundreds of billions of dead are being mercilessly tortured at the whim of a supposedly all-forgiving entity is nonsense and makes me think that idiot Christians who subscribe to exclusivist doctrine cannot possibly operate under the delusion of omni-benevolence, part of the attributes of God as listed by the catechism. They are essentially kowtowing to a ruthless, vindictating murderous, bloodlusting jurispruder with no love or respect for his creations. He would be the first to go to hell if it actually existed.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
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I'm sure the answers are coming!
I just posted several of the questions that were posted in one f the threads here on another site I frequent. This one has christians and atheists, it's a private thingy. Anyway, one of my friends (I'm assuming that won't last much longer, based on her response) said this:
My reply:
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Another website has my privates? O.o
Haha! Sorry...I sold them to the highest bidder.
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I don't understand why anyone would support and revere a being that ultimately dosen't care about you.
And how can anyone say that he the Christian god is a loving god??? It dosen't make sense to me.
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MattShizzle you need to read my posting carasmatic christian view point it will give you some insight on this matter. Peace and Godbless
The thing that always got me was that:
a) God and Satan are polar opposites at war with each other
b) God sends bad people to hell to be tortured by Satan
c) But if Satan is punishing people for God then surely that means there is an alliance between them. If they really were polar opposites good vs evil and at war, would God trust Satan to do his work in punishing for him? If they really were at war, would Satan not use these people as an army against God, or actually be on their side for being bad people.
This is one of many reasons why I always found Christianity to be absolutely ridiculous.
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You are right, Matt, religious wars are killing people.
So, what if the issue about going to Heaven weren't about good or bad but alive or dead? The essence of the Gospels and the entire Bible, for that matter, is that we are dead in our sin. The wages of sin is death, and we are all sinners. Lord knows that I have done my share of really bad stuff.
If you want proof, just look at how a couple of toddlers fight over a sucker when they cant even yet talk. It's our nature. Now, God being Holy cannot be in the presence of sin, or that would make Him not God. If that is true, then any sin would put distance between a person and God. So, we are all dead. This means that your sin of whatever is not better or worse than mine. We are both dead. What we then need is a savior. We need forgiveness. We need some vehicle that will allow us back into the presence of God. Well, it's pretty easy to look around and see that we have little success at covering up for our mistakes. Just look at how the world views the US today. Man isnt capable. So, God did it Himself. He sent Jesus down and provided the means to be back together with Him. All we have to do is believe. This makes it absolutely fair for everyone. Everyone plays by the same rules. Believe and you're in.
There is no subjectivity in God's model. There is subjectivity in what man has done with God's model with the "good enough to get to Heaven measurement", which is prideful and was instituted hundreds of years ago through the church of all things. Pride is sin. Sin equals death, and we are back at the start.
As a Christian and one who knows Jesus personally, I apologize on behalf of all the Christians in this world that have judged you and made you feel excluded. God's Kingdom is for everyone. Jesus didnt come to heal the healthy. He came for the lost. And, we are all in that boat.
I hope that you find your truth as you seek it.
John
Jacob,
May I offer another view of the things that have been on your mind regarding God and satan?
What if God were love and created everything for that purpose? What if we were created to love God? Well, we cannot make anyone love us, can we? It's not possible. God can't do it either. Yes, there are things that even God cannot do.
So, He gives us free will. This allows us the freedom to choose to love, and it gives us the freedom to do whatever else we will.
satan was the head angel. his name was lucifer. he led a rebellion against God when he thought that he could be above God (choice). So, God cast him out of Heaven. satan is the essence of evil. But, I might suggest that the opposite of good (God) is not evil (satan). The absence of good is evil. So, where God isnt leaves room for where satan is. At the fall, man was cast out of Eden, and dominion was turned over to satan where man had been given it. All things under man were/are now under satan. God keeps His promises, and He had promised the world to man.
So, God doesnt send "Bad" people to hell to be tortured. As my post to Matt discusses, dead people go to hell - not bad people. Those that "choose" not to accept God's gift of salvation in Jesus continue down their road of choice. The choice away from Jesus is death. So, your choice leads you to hell. It doesnt matter how "bad" you are. Again, my bad is probably worse than yours. But, I am forgiven through faith in Christ, so I go to Heaven.
There most certainly is a war between Heaven and satan's army. God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. He has a definite advantage in knowing everything and being all-powerful, so He works all things to His good, independent of the attacks that satan throws on man. This is oversimplified, but until Jesus comes back, there will continue to be a battle.
John
How is it a choice when there's no evidence a god exists?
Your question speaks to a different issue altogether.
However, it is by the Spirit of God that one comes to know Him. There are no words that I can offer you to "convince" you of anything, so I shall not try to do so.
If there is no God, then there is no evidence. If there is a God, there is evidence all around you, and the choice then becomes one of whether yous see it or not.
However, on my side, there are miracles, and those you cannot refute. This I will guarantee, you will see one happen before your eyes before this weekend is over. In the Name of Jesus, I declare that to be. I will leave it to you to decide what happens next.
I will offer you an historical perspective. 500 people saw Jesus walking after His death. There was enough momentum from that movement that a sect developed big enough for emperor Nero to blame the Christians for the burning of Rome in roughly 70 something AD. Now, that sect had to have enough substance for Nero to make such a claim.
And, this was documented outside of Christian Gospel. Josephus has all kinds of stuff written in our secular history books to this point.
Is there enough evidence to support the fact that Rome existed? I cannot prove that it did. But, I can look with an open heart and say that yea, it sure does look like there was.
Same is true for Christ. We really have to land on one thing - did He come back from the dead? If so, He did what He said He would do. If He didnt, He is a liar, and it really doesnt matter what the other evidence says cause God doesnt lie. If He did, He again isnt God, and we are all amazingly misguided.
By the way, I was agnostic. Not sure that it will matter to you, but I do appreciate the line of questioning.
Religion is horrible.
John
Sigghhh.. You obviously haven't read things around here. The Josephus writings were a forgery. The BuyBull doesn't count as any sort of evidence. The universe is evidence the universe exists. that's it. And by the way most of us don't believe Jesus ever actually existed.
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You are right; I havent read things around here. Sorry to come across so uneducated. This is not my intention.
It's easy to rationalize one's position. We must justify ourselves in order to prove ourselves accurate in our decision making. Otherwise, we have to admit our errancy and humble ourselves. No one likes to do that, do they?
So, I must revert back to 1st century tactics. I will let God do what God does best - be God. What kind of miracle do you need to see? And, if you saw that, would you believe?
Thanks for your thoughts...
I'd need to see something that could not possibly be explained any other way. Better yet, have something that could be independantly reviewed by scientific sources.
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Then, in the Name of Christ, you shall see your miracle.
Jesus still does them today. And, it makes sharing His love for you so much easier. Why do I want to try and duke it out through words with people who are probably a whole lot smarter than me? All I have to do is call on Him.
Father, for Your glory, I pray that Matt experiences the supernatural in a way that he most certainly knows it to have come from You. Show Matt Your awesome Love. Open Heaven this weekend, Father. In Jesus' Name. Amen
Please let me know how He does it. It always blows my mind how creative He is.
Have a great weekend.
John
I'm not anticipating being a Christian come Monday.
That's a good one. I vote for that one.
I wasn't really thinking along those lines, but since you brought it up...
you know? the mere fact that you are anticipating something and did not come back with "they are not possible cause there is no God", which is what I would expect a true atheist to state says that you really do believe in God - somewhere deep in your heart. You know why? Cause there really is a God, and He really does love you, and He wrote it on your heart, and you cannot erase it no matter what you try.
The same goes for all of your buddies out here that are reading this thread wondering what is going to happen this weekend to you. The mere fact that you give one iota of a shot that a miracle could happen says that you believe.
Atheists cannot erase what is on their hearts. It is not possible. We can deny truth, but we cannot erase it. Veritas? What is veritas?
Your miracle will come because I asked and believed, and Jesus promises.
If you choose to become a believer, that is up to you. I pray to God that you do.
I wish you well no matter what.
Actually I don't believe there are miracles. I believe there are coincidences, hoaxes, hallucinations, etc. Even if a "miracle" did occur, it could have been Vishnu or Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or aliens with superscience we dont understand even) that performed it!
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A boy walks up to an unknown man and asks if it is ok to have some candy.
"Ask your father", replies the man. "I do not know you."
So, the boy does. And, his Father gladly grants the boy his desire.
And this is relevant how? By the way nothing even unusual happened so far...
This reminds me of a deleted scene from the movie Dogma. In it, Jason Lee's character (I can't remember his name) talks about hell. He says that in the beginning Hell was simply the absence of God. "After being in His presence you know how terrible this absence can be." It was humans that turned it into the lake of fire, suffering, torture pit that it is because we believed it was impossible for God to forgive all our horrible sins. Humans created our own torture. While I am not a theist by any means (I consider myself agnostic) this could be entirely true. Maybe hell isn't the lake of fire we have come to believe it is. If we are all rejecting God by not believing in him then maybe this view of hell is accurate. I offer this as an alternative explanation because I haven't seen a theist offer any yet.
"Offensive or not, sacred or not - religion and superstition – Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Scientology and so on - must be open to all forms of criticism and ridicule." - Maryam Namazie
Is that from the Silmarrillion? I love Tolkien too. Couldn't finish reading that book though. Way too heavy.
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Yeah, Silmarillion is really heavy reading. I've tried three times to finish, and barely get past the first few chapters. There are two problems: the Cosmology Tolkien created isn't that interesting, and Tolkien's son (forgot which one) was a lousy editor. There was a reason Tolkien never published it in his lifetime: it wasn't nearly as good as Lord of the Rings.
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I do not know who the "elect" are, ergo I cannot possibly understand "why" they would not be there. all I know is that God is a "good judge" and will judge fairly according to His law. And on that I must rely that He has dealt reasonably and shown mercy upon who He will show mercy upon.
Yeah, it was dry and repetative. It was a very simple crossover of Christianity and Paganism and I got the impression he was writing a bible without the nasty vindictive God or the stories like Sodom, which shows God's favoured ones in a bad light by modern standards. It was just a simplified good vs evil story. Much as I love Tolkien's creations including the backstories which go back milennia, I did find the Silmarrillion boring as fuck. I've still yet to read the new book being brought out which has never been published before. Apparantly it's about incest and was written just after WWI, probably when he was totally fucked in the head from the trenches.
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So how do you even know he exists?
"So how do you even know he exists?"
I hate to speak out of turn, but was your question for me?
Yep. After all there is no real evidence.
You are correct! There is "Zero" physical/tangible evidence that God exists! I do agree with you 100% I support your observation, and will stand with you and by your observation if any of my brethern should call it false.
As for me? How do I know He exists?
I have seen a manifestation of Him, I have been in His presence multiple times, I have heard His voice speak to my heart, and I have observed the cause and affect of His will in my life. The so-called "evidence" I have of His existence, is for my eyes and ears, and heart only. It is a personal "Special Revelation". ALL Christians recieve these special revelations, they all differ as to time, place, and content of such.
Im sorry but this seems like a cop-out to me. "I have seen him and spoken to him but nobody else witnessed it because it was just for me." I believe this "God speaking to my heart" that alot of believers talk about is simply an emotional reaction. You are just interpreting an emotional reaction that occurs naturally in your body in a way that helps you explain it to others. Religion is notorious for preying on peoples emotions. How many times did Ray Comfort appeal to peoples conscience in that debate?
"Offensive or not, sacred or not - religion and superstition – Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Scientology and so on - must be open to all forms of criticism and ridicule." - Maryam Namazie
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. And I thank you for sharing it with me. I can understand how this type of opinion could be easily formed. And if I had my way, I would have God reveal Himself to ALL HUMANITY, and be done with it! But alas, that is not His plan, so all I can do is share "my evidence", and if the person sees fit to reject it, then that person has done his job! He/She has listened to the evidence, and judged for themselves the validity of it.
Thank You again for allowing me to share...
I have a question to all Atheists. If you have a child and they become deathly ill and the doctor gives them a month to live but the doctor told you of a new drug coming out that might instantly cure your child's illness. But no testing had been done so side efects are unknown.
Would you A: Get the drug and hope it cures you child or B: let nature takes it course and die.
It's a fact that one day we will all die. I don't know about you but I enjoy living it's great so why would I want to die forever. You may not die in a month it may be 20 to 30 years from now but it might be tomarrow also
If you would answer A on above question then why would you take that chance with your life when eternal life God will give you if you believe in him and his son Jesus. If I am wrong in my beliefs I will be in the same boat as you just dead. But if I'm right then I will have life eternal and you will miss out. Don't take the chance become a believer. Peace and God Bless
I have a question to all Atheists. If you have a child and they become deathly ill and the doctor gives them a month to live but the doctor told you of a new drug coming out that might instantly cure your child's illness. But no testing had been done so side efects are unknown.
Would you A: Get the drug and hope it cures you child or B: let nature takes it course and die.
It's a fact that one day we will all die. I don't know about you but I enjoy living it's great so why would I want to die forever. You may not die in a month it may be 20 to 30 years from now but it might be tomarrow also
If you would answer A on above question then why would you take that chance with your life when eternal life God will give you if you believe in him and his son Jesus. If I am wrong in my beliefs I will be in the same boat as you just dead. But if I'm right then I will have life eternal and you will miss out. Don't take the chance become a believer. Peace and God Bless
The only problem with that statement, is that the person making the choice would have to be one of the "Elect" written in the "Lamb's Book Of Life" before the foundation of the world.
If they are "Elect", there is no "chance" for them to take. They will one day be saved, but in God's time, and not ours. If they are not one of the "Elect" then they have no "chance" to take to begin with.
Therin lay the problem with "theists" here. Ours is not to "Preach", but to stand by the open door to see if the sheep hear the voice of the "Good Shepherd".
The probability of "Elect" being here is small, but indeed possible. It would not be to Satan's benefit to take a chance on allowing the elected to come here and take up residence, and establish lasting relationships before regeneration, simply due to the fact that it would create doubt in the minds of others once the person had been justified, and placed on the road to sanctification by God. Which would create an unhealthy environment in His control of the un-elected. ie: if Sapient were "Elected", and became regenerated, it would cause a shockwave through the power structure, and topple all he has worked so hard to mold.
Granted Satan does not have a name by name list of the elect, but he has a good enough sense of who is solid enough, and who might not be, hence the possibility of some being here. Who knows? Sapient might actually be one? Now wouldn't that be a hoot!
As I've seen many times on these forums, christians like you, daddymatt33ih, can't seem to resist using Pascal's wager as a way to try and convert atheists to your cause. In my opinion it is irresponsible to try and use fearmongering to convince people to believe what you believe. Instead for once, why don't you give good solid evidence why I should become a christian? I have not yet seen from any christian solid and undeniable evidence proving your claims of a supreme being. All I have heard so far are fairytales, bogus stories, and downright laughable personal anecdotes. As I and the entire athiest community are not claiming anything supernatural or extraordinary that leaves the burden of proof on the christian community which, as of yet, has not proven anything. So please, save your conversion tactics for someone who will believe your fairytale. Also why wouldn't you want to continue living? What is so wrong with being alive? The question you ask is downright silly. Any person in their right mind will strive to live even when the odds are against them.
Your god's silence speaks loud and clear
i would go with A defiantly. To just let the child die would be cruel
Thats jsut stupid , if i take chance with Jesus adn it turns out to be Allah thats the true god then i am jsut as fucked as i am now , the only diffrenece is right now i dont have to waste my time every week at a church being told my natraul feelings/urges are wrong and sinful
Pascals wadger much:P
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I don't see how religion/ lack of would change the answer unless say they were anti-medicine through their religion.
I personally don't have children yet. I'd like to think I would way up the pros and cons of the evidence that existed on this medication (generally they will test medication before they give it to patients) before making a decision. It would perhaps depend on what my child had to say, if he/she were old enough to understand. If the medication backfired and it made my child's life unbearable perminently i.e. in perminent pain/ vegetative state, then I might then seek euthanasia, that being the most humane course of action - something which is illegal in this country and in America for reasons I just don't get, normally supported by theists.
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A. Now, if that was in any way comparable to religion, then I'd be all about it. However, it is not. Pascal's Wager=automatic loss.
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This is a moot question as no drug goes untested. If there were such a drug that would cure whatever my childs illness is I would get the facts concerning all possible benefits and side effects before making my decision and if my child were old enough I would allow them that choice.
As an atheist I know that the life I am living now is my only life so I also enjoy living my life to the fullest. It doesn't matter when I die. I have no fear nor expectation of any afterlife to motivate my morality. I have only the desire to be a good, rational person who treats people with the dignity and kindness that I want in return.
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By the way, all weekend nothing even unusual, let alone miraculous happened. Fuck, nothing even "good" happened. So, the Christian god therefore doesn't exist.
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I didn't think so. I'll try praying tonight. It's bound to work eventually.
Dear father,
I pray that at some point during the next 70/80 years of my life you show me this very specific sign. I will see a swan swimming on a lake. Don't worry, you don't have to show it me now, I mean, it's dark out and I'm about to go to bed, but just as long as I see it before I die. Then I will truly believe that you are the one.
Amen.
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