Jutter

Jutter
Jutter's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2006-08-24
User is offlineOffline
Jutter

Hello,

let me start with my background as a freethinker. Never done that before elaborately really. To go all the way I should first set the scene by stressing I'm dutch. Holland, though a protestant monarchy with strong Catholic roots as well and currently the home of many Muslims too, is one of the world's most secular countries. I was born in 1970.
My folks (post-WW2 kids) were raised Catholic but the indoctrination ultimately didn't take, so my older sister and me got a non-religious upbringing. Perhaps it would a bit too much of a stretch to call my folks rationalists. Compulsive nitpickers yes, so they did help sharpen my wit and grow accustomed to having my words challenged, and they are hooked on knowledge quizzes on TV, which contributed to an interrest in a broad array of subjects. But dad has a bit of a consiracy theorist in him, and some superstitious beliefs in e.s.p. links among siblings or some shit like that. My sister takes after him in this respect I fear.

In school my exposure to religion was virtually nonexistant. My earliest memory is this strange lady (who I afterwards luckily never saw again) in kindergarden when I was four or five, who tried to get the little ones praying with her. She called me to the front of the class, and ultimately I just mimicked what she appearantly insisted me to do. It of course did not give me the idea I was talking to someone. That was the only direct theistic indoctrination I've ever had to endure. Apart from that, during my years at a R.C. highschool, experiencing the oddity of some teachers praying out loud before devouring their sandwiches at lunchbreak about sums it up.

As a result I was an implicit atheist for the largest part of my life. It wasn't untill I engaged in more phillosophical selfexploration at a later age, that I became more aware of how contrary theism is to my views and vice versa. (those explorations were kind of a proto-stage of the work I describe in my MySpace blog) It was with the initial desire to get feedback on my explorations that I wound up on Internet Infidels, by that time my atheism was of an explicit nature. It was at the AN that I was first introduced to Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection kit, and logical fallacies in general. Why on earth isn't this stuff in the dutch curriculum?? (no don't tell... it's not something on earth... sigh) but some unfortunate friction made me leave there in favor of IG forum. (When personalities clash, getting out of each others face, for at least the time being, is sometimes the wisest thing, no hard feelings.) Infidelguy Forums has been my regular freethought hangout for a couple of years now, and recently I joined it's moderator staff.

A major project of mine, currently in hybernation due to other obligations, is a book I'm working on, featuring (a written image of) me stuck in my own fantasyworld dominated by a memic-badguy/alledged supreme being, who I have to deal with in order to escape my trap. It's my intention to make this story a strong pro-rationality meme, and I think the story having a memic badguy will play an important part in that. Bigotry will be a big theme also. Workingtitle: the questionmark shaped hole.

That about sums it up.

~Let us be reasonable~

You want to claim there's such a thing as "the supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare you to be "paracorrect" in doing so. 


LeftofLarry
RRS local affiliateScientist
LeftofLarry's picture
Posts: 1199
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Good to see you here. Can I

Good to see you here. Can I ask you a question about Holland? How do the Dutch as a whole perceive theism and especially fundamentalism as in the US's xtian right and the muslim fundamentalism?

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.


Jutter
Jutter's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2006-08-24
User is offlineOffline
LeftofLarry wrote:Good to

LeftofLarry wrote:
Good to see you here. Can I ask you a question about Holland? How do the Dutch as a whole perceive theism and especially fundamentalism as in the US's xtian right and the muslim fundamentalism?

Let's see what I can provide in the way of an answer. If you think about it for a moment, you'll realize there can be no whole Dutch perception on any of those items due to it's cultural diversity.

One thing I can do is show you the following for comparison. Picture all the freethinker boards and their trafic this one for starters, IG... that's quite some traffic, the AN, the graveyard of the gods (not superfamous in our circles but let's add them), IIDB now there's a bussy sucker, that's like comparing a pub to an auctionhall, there's Melody's board on Myspace, looked around there yet? There are probably more. Infidelgirls? Infidelteens?

Okay, now here are the only freethinkerboards in the dutch language worth mentioning I know, and the biggest one is Belgian. There's also 'de vrije gedachten', a dutch freethinkersorganisation with strong hystoric roots but seemingly gathering dust these days.
http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/
http://www.skepp.be/discussieforum/
Check out the traffic at those, nevermind the lowland swahili.

Another thing... I once e-mailed a letter to several major dutch newspapers inquiring about their willingness to adress the subject of bigotry towards the non-religious in the USA. Never got an answer, so be open to the idea that maybe they don't give a rats ass.

Muslim fundamentalism IS an issue here in the Lowlands. Our troops are deployed in arabic fuckstan too. Navy, F16's, Elite troops you name it. We do get to incidently hear about maroccan girls getting killed on dutch soil by some fucked up fundycousin because she had become 'too westernized'. Theo Van Gogh was slaughtered by a muslim fundy. But here's the stupid thing. The dutch nonreligious are generally not skilled at deconstructing theological antics, or at recognizing the fire you're playing with when you trivialize the abrahamic mindfuck, and a lot of them are just dumbfucks who turn it into a racial/ethnic issue. Holland's atheists are I venture, mainly of an implicit nature, living with far less or virtually no prosyletizing, often not even aware that there's such a word as atheist for it. But a the same time, when I watch something like the Friday pheateauphuck at geenstijl.nl (big online hit in holland, funny photoshop contest with political themes) and the jokes that were made after the whole danish cartoon brooha, I also realize the dutch are aslo still delightfully in your fucking face rebellious.
I think it can make a big diffrence though if you're an apostate in an agressively evangelial environment, because then to arm yourself you have to dig into stuf as contradictions and logical fallacies.

They didin't teach about logical fallacies when I was in highschool. Do they these days? They damn well should I think. Hammering in there that ad-hominems are lame alone could improve schoolyard behaviour I think. Rambling now.

~Let us be reasonable~

You want to claim there's such a thing as "the supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare you to be "paracorrect" in doing so. 


LeftofLarry
RRS local affiliateScientist
LeftofLarry's picture
Posts: 1199
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
I meant to include "from

I meant to include "from your perspective"... but you answered just fine...interesting to know.. as far as Melody's group yeah, I've visited her group and forums as well as hung out wiht her and the beltway atheists for our independence day in washington dc. She's cool...

Anyway, I knew about the cartoons, that's why I was asking.

interesting...

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
I didn't learn about logical

I didn't learn about logical fallacies until college - and only because I minored in philosophy.


AntiFaith
AntiFaith's picture
Posts: 197
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
I agree Jutter. I think

I agree Jutter. I think people should know about logic. I am a weakling when it comes to it, but I am trying to learn.

I think that people have the right to know exactly what the bible is. What the New Testament really shows Jesus as. I think showing contradictions that are also ethical problems will hit the heart with more impact than many of the bibles other contradictions.

I am working on a myspace all about Jesus. Just Jesus. Well that and Christianities track record from past to present. News Paper articles that show what some missionaries do and have done over seas. Stuff like that. I hope I get a lot of angry Christians. They will be even more angry, some of them, when they don't get what they expect -an angry atheist. What they will get is an open minded and concerned apostate of the Christian religion. I think I want to also show the positive, like explaining what free thought is and how it can improve living on many levels. I think it can, but I am not learned enough about it or logic. But I will be. I will juggle that and school.


Jutter
Jutter's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2006-08-24
User is offlineOffline
Oh just to show another side

Oh just to show another side of me aside from the intro, and sideshot.


That's me 'defeating' Goliath. Loooooove coastering.

~Let us be reasonable~

You want to claim there's such a thing as "the supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare you to be "paracorrect" in doing so. 


AntiFaith
AntiFaith's picture
Posts: 197
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
I recognise you from IG.

I recognise you from IG. Glad to see you here Jutter.


Jutter
Jutter's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2006-08-24
User is offlineOffline
AntiFaith wrote:I agree

AntiFaith wrote:
I agree Jutter. I think people should know about logic. I am a weakling when it comes to it, but I am trying to learn.

There's a semi-lazy way out. Refferenceguides
the more you dig stuff up the more it'll stick and the less you'll have to look it up eventually.

Steve's page of logical fallacies is my personal fav. Verry accesible and well organized and it gives you little exersizes to test things out for yourself. When you google "logical fallacies" it doesn't show up on the front page anymore these days so here's the link for bookmarking.

http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/

Oh (where are my manners) and thanks for the welcome everyone. Smiling

~Let us be reasonable~

You want to claim there's such a thing as "the supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare you to be "paracorrect" in doing so. 


AntiFaith
AntiFaith's picture
Posts: 197
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
Bookmarked. Thank you very

Bookmarked. Thank you very much. I will take a break for a while and see how much I can understand. I will not put it off any longer. I was afraid to ask atheists for help with this. Because all atheists are suppossed to be smart. I am not stupid, but I am not as smart as many atheists.

Welcome to RRS! Smiling


Jutter
Jutter's picture
Posts: 65
Joined: 2006-08-24
User is offlineOffline
AntiFaith wrote:Bookmarked.

AntiFaith wrote:
Bookmarked. Thank you very much. I will take a break for a while and see how much I can understand. I will not put it off any longer. I was afraid to ask atheists for help with this. Because all atheists are suppossed to be smart. I am not stupid, but I am not as smart as many atheists.

Welcome to RRS! Smiling


Well there's "knowledgable" smart, and then there's "wise" smart.
When you're not "smart" enough to know something the "smart" thing to do always is ask. And people here will consider it "smart" when you do, unless they're dorks and even then a little nudge will make 'em snap out of that. Eye-wink

~Let us be reasonable~

You want to claim there's such a thing as "the supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare you to be "paracorrect" in doing so. 


AntiFaith
AntiFaith's picture
Posts: 197
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
Did you know, that I learned

Did you know, that I learned some of these from how atheists used them? I do not know most, but I do know:

Non-sequiter. Circular logic. Begging the Question. Red herring. Argument from ignorance. I know these by how atheists pointed out that I always did them, when apologising. Hehe. I messed up special plead on a thread here with a Christian. ha.

I definately need practice, and I would like to learn them all.

p,q ..I forget what all it looked like. I want to speak without logical fallacies. To see if what I say is not crap.