Rational people with irrational claims
Offline Hello, I'm using this as an opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Alex, and I'm still in my teenage years. I've done a lot of thinking over the past couple of months, as religion has started to play a bigger role in my life. I started questioning why I had considered myself 'Christian', and what made these claims true. I asked myself questions of life, and the universe. I unknowingly questioned my family members, who would never give me an acceptable response. I decided to become an agnostic. But that still wasn't good enough. I went to school and discussed my viewpoints with friends, and I only ended up making them angry. After awhile, I questioned myself further, and with much more concious effot than it took to convert to agnostic, I became an Atheist. Now I'm incredibly satisfied with my life and my place in the universe. I never found anything like this being a Christian.
My question is, why is it that people in my life who I find to be incredibly intelligent and good thinkers, are all Christian? Am I the only one who has thought this thoroughly about it? Am I the only one open about it?
For example, my math teacher (geometry) teaches us logic and proving things false. The catch is, he's a preacher. How has he not questioned his views? If he has, why hasn't he proved them false? Any logical set up would work.
Another example is my friends mom. Her son is incredibly smart. Calculus smart (he's in the same grade as me). He doesn't believe in organized religion, but he refuses to let go of the belief in a deity. His mom would be pretty angry if he did. She is smart too, and has a degree in engineering, yet she is heavily catholic.
I only know of one other atheist in my school, and he isn't very open about it. Is Toledo really this ignorant?
My parents generally support my views, even if they don't agree. So I'm not being attacked so much at home as at school. Am I missing something here? It seems like everyone else is missing something that's obvious to me. Do they feel the same way about how I think?
Thanks for the responses and the amazing forum 
~Alex
Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God" 
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Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.
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They must be compartmentalizing their religious beliefs. In every day life they are very rational. However religion is sheltered in their brains from their rational side.
My parents both have Master degrees and are both very smart. Same with my brother. However they all believe in god.
Strange isn't it? If you point out something that is irrational in the bible they will often back down and agree with you. Then they will immediately fall back into believing it.
I've found the behaviour highly disturbing.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
There are several things to consider.
1) You're in the single most religious modern nation in the world.
2) As you've seen firsthand, admission of atheism is generally discouraged. In other words, you probably do know some atheists, but they keep their mouths shut for fear of losing friends, family, or their job. (Yes. It happens.)
3) There's something called compartmentalization, which is basically a psychological term, used to describe how people can put things in mental 'boxes.' Some boxes, we just don't think about, while others, we examine critically. Most intelligent theists just don't put their beliefs to the same scrutiny they apply to the rest of their lives. There is also significant evidence that some people have a higher tolerance for cognitive dissonance than other people. (Cognitive dissonance is when we believe a thing is both true and false at the same time, essentially.)
Definitely not. Have you seen how many responses we got from The Blasphemy Challenge that were teenagers?
That's why we need people in your age group to be brave. Your friends are all at a critical point in their life. It's not a perfect analogy, but smoking is kind of like Christianity. Most people who start smoking in their teens have a VERY difficult time ever quitting, and very few people start smoking after 25. In the same way, most people will become Christian before they've reached adulthood, and very few adults, proportionally, become Christians. Any of your friends who make it out of college without becoming Christians are likely to be a lot safer. Speaking out now can make a huge difference.
You see how it works? It's not the logic that holds people back. It's the social penalties! People lose their friends and their families if they admit their own good sense!
If you have some time, please read this essay that I wrote a year or so ago, ok? Belief despite understanding the logic, and three steps to freedom.
I think it talks about exactly what you're seeing all around you, and might help you understand why people are so afraid to admit they don't believe in Jesus.
Yes. Toledo, and that whole area of the midwest, is pretty bad off when it comes to theism vs. education.
It's called brainwashing. You sound like a very intelligent person, but no, you're probably not the only person who can see the logic. You're one of the only ones who is admitting it. Within a few years, if it hasn't happened already, all of your peers will have forgotten any doubts they have, and will be thoroughly brainwashed. They will probably never leave Christianity. If you're not familiar with how brainwashing works, basically the human brain doesn't care too much about accuracy when there's repetition. In other words, if you say something enough times, people will believe it, regardless of whether it's true or not. Just think of how the news media changed the entire nation's focus from Osama Bin Laden to Saddam Hussein in less than a month, simply by plastering Hussein's face all over every tv in America 24 hours a day!
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hello there Alex, I'm also new here.
In my opinion the reason you think that most of the intelligent people who surround you are Christian is because MOST of the people who surround you are Christian, let me ask you this - how many Atheists do you personally know? - I'd imagine that not so many.
As you seem to already know, there are different kinds of smart, some of these types of smart only require a lot of exercise, for an example, if I took Chemistry and studied the entire periodic table by heart some may consider me smart but it's really just the result of hard work and studying.
Also, this is obviously not proven or anything but from my own experience, religious families (especially Christians, it would seem) are very strict and school work is given extra attention and care.
Again, Mathematics and Engineering aren't really subject that would require a person to do a lot of thinking about the universe, whether god exists or not the sum of two numbers remains the same- if instead they were biologists or zoologists it would be different since those subjects would put them in daily conflict with their beliefs.
Welcome to the forums..
I've wondered the same thing. One reason people can still believe irrational things is because they do just block it off. I think people are afraid of what will happen if they critically examine their faith, and so they strive not to. And trust me, you will make people angry when you question their religious viewpoint, because poeple sure don't like being told theirs are wrong. However, I feel it must be done to break the stigma around questioning it.
And I totally agree with your comment on life being more fulfilling now! Those sill theists don't know what their missing..
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Wow thanks for the quick responses guys
! It's good to know that there are people outside of this bubble I live in who think like me.
I think you're right about the compartmentalizing thing. It sounds like how my friends act. If there is a subject they are uncomfortable with, they pretty much ignore it. It's most likely the same way with faith. That makes me wonder exactly how many of them have ever thought beyond what their parents have told them in any serious manner. From a kid's perspective, I can see how they would view it as 'beyond them', or 'we don't have to worry about that yet'. I used to think the same way. It's just dissapointing that we can't talk about it so openly. My teachers seriously advise against writing any religious related papers (which I do anyways
, and get fairly good grades!), and again, everyone just either finds some excuse to ignore what I say/attempt to disprove it, or gets frustrated with me. GAH sometimes I want out of here.
Although I admit, sometimes I do push it too far. Even though people get mad at me for it, I refuse to be closed about my beliefs. I'm just a very outspoken person. It'll probably come back and bite me in the behind, but I wouldn't be being true to myself if I just shut up about it.
Again, thanks for letting me know there is some hope for humanity yet
.
~Alex
Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God"
-
Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.
Hi Alex
Welcome to the forums. Like you I found this place to be a much needed breath of fresh air.
I went through similiar steps as you. Raised as a christian. I rejected going to church and organized religion (much like your friend that mentioned) I still clung to the idea of a creator that I was conditioned to cling to no matter what. Finally I decided if there is such a god he's a prick. Then became an atheist and like you I felt so at peace and suddenly life was just great!
I've also come to realize to, like fluffz said. There are different kinds of smart. I've discovered a whole new level of smart people since I've joined this forum and have been reading so many intelligent posts.
Thats excellent that you're being true to yourself and not being quiet that your an atheist! Keep it up! I remember getting attacked by a close friend when I first proclaimed I was an atheist. I suddenly became a horrible person with no morals. I was shocked that my friend could even imply such things. I even started wondering if being an atheist was a wrong horrible thing and then I found this forum and all these great atheist and I decided to stand firm and tall about being an atheist.
I have one other sibling (younger sister thats 17) that was subjected and force fed religion even more then I was. She stated during a conversation where I was trying to give her critical things to think on about religion, "I'm just going to believe what I believe because I've chosen to do so and I'm set on it." SO she was thoroughly taught to just not question it.
I also firmly scolded her for that statement and I told her, she is NOT to toss away and disregard factual information. Believe in it because at this time you think it's right, but challenge it and strive to learn and understand more about the world!
Hi Alex,
There's a book I'd like to recommend to you. The End of Faith, by Sam Harris. It explains in a really concise and straightforward way why many atheists are starting to speak up about religion. It's a very inspiring book and could help you feel less isolated. I know it was pretty hard for me when I was in school wondering why the heck more people weren't outspoken atheists, and I didn't even grow up in the religiously dominated USA, but in Canada, where it is merely considered 'impolite' to talk negatively about religion. This fear of offending people or 'hurting their feelings' is really what Sam Harris is talking about when he claims that religious moderates give protection to extremists when they defend the idea of faith. Look at the recent events with the Danish cartoonists depicting Muhammad or the schoolteacher who was nearly lynched for letting a class of 6-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Also, you may be interested in the RRS sister-site http://www.freethinkingteens.com/. Your username and password from here should also work there.
Welcome to the forums!
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I can relate to you on that. When I came out as a atheist to my friend he instantly started attcking my morals. The day before he thought I was a christian and I was fine.As soon as he knew I was a atheist though, I was a moraless,evil bastard. pish. I try live my life more moral than my christian friends (not that hard actually) so they don't have any room to speak.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
Yeah SabbySu ....
As most of the others said, there is very likely a bit of compartmentalization going on with the people you talk about. There's also a fairly large amount of social pressure on people your age to fit in and all that, and atheism is quickly becoming the new homosexuality - don't ask, don't tell. I can remember the year after I graduated, many guys (and girls) that I graduated with came out and are now openly gay. Back in high school, though, they were too afraid of social rejection to do anything like that. Likewise, the further you leave high school behind, the more open people around you will become in expressing their [dis]beliefs.
As for me, well, I'm just irreparably insane.
Of course, once you go to college, bisexuality is the new theism... every other girl you meet has messed around with another girl. When I was in college, we called them LUGs -- Lesbians Until Graduation. I have no idea if that term is still used.
The difference between theism and sexuality is that there are more people who accept homosexuality than people who accept atheism, and if you're an employer, you know better than to fire someone for being gay. Not so for us atheists.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Welcome aboard.
As others have mentioned intelligent people believe in religion due to brainwashing. There are dozens of major religions in the world and thousands of minor ones, so why do all the people you know follow the same one? Not to mention almost everyone in the world follows his or her parent’s religion. They have had it forced onto them from an early age and have just learnt to accept it. The same happens for every different religion throughout the world. I’m sure many have questioned their beliefs personally but due to the pressure of parents, peers and society in general they have kept their superstitious beliefs.
Organised religion is a form of mental terrorism that preys on the young and the weak minded. Once captured by the terrorist (while young or weak) it becomes extremely difficult to break free. Congratulations on being someone who has managed this difficult feat!
How old are you? That's really mature. I was 17 or 18 when I started to consider myself first an agnostic and later an atheist (I'm almost 23 now). Prior to that I had been rebelling against my own family's rather superficial Judaism with (I realized later) a VERY CONTRIVED NEO-PAGAN PHASE that lasted several years. I attributed this to Judaism being a particularly difficult faith to escape from, considering the pressure within the minority to uphold traditions. Fortunately my family had always been pretty secular, and around the time I decided I didn't believe in God my parents and my younger siblings had all independently reached the same conclusion. I commend you for being so comfortable with this in the face of the adversity and alienation you describe.
There's a great phrase to describe the neurological effect of compartmentalizing reason and science with religious faith: Cognitive Dissonance. We are a kind of cognitive elite, unfettered by sentimental attachments to religion. Though some of us simply never believed, others, like you and I, had to overcome our own mental stumbling blocks at first. The best of us subject our own prejudices to constant scrutiny.
The Christian thing... incidental. Geography. Colonial settlement patterns. White flight. Suburban sprawl, whatever. Where I grew up there were so many Jews I thought Halloween was a Jewish holiday until I was six and started going to Public School, for no other reason than that almost everyone I up until that point was Jewish.
Generally, there is an inverse correlation between religious tendencies and education. The higher your education, the less likely you are to take theology literally or to believe in God at all. That most of the adults in your area somehow reconcile their faith with the technical, logical, or scientific skills associated with their jobs
You're part of an enlightened minority, a cognitive elite. Maybe your parents and friends will join you on that level one day (they're supportive of you, so at least they're somewhat open-minded), but try not to fault them for their faith. I blame society. I blame the failure of our educational system to produce more kids like you who turn out to be critical thinkers. There aren't enough of those these days, and we're often under-appreciated as so-called "ivory-tower intellectuals." The frustration you feel won't go away so long as you are passionate about the truth. You have to turn it into a tool, a source of strength and discipline on your intellectual journey. Cultivate your innate reason and capacity for rational thinking. And man, if you ever are persecuted at your school there are activists who will stand up for you. Margaret Downey works her butt off digging up the dirt on discrimination against non-believers across the country that never seems to make it to the headlines.
Hope to see more of you around here. Great post.
---FTD
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
Hi Alex, since I've been here I've found a lot of people brought up in very similar situations. This place really is a great help for people like you as well as people like me with no religious upbringing.
Atheist Books
Yeah, i'm actually 15
! I had this period in my life at the beginning of this school year where I challenged who I was and what I believed. It was a great mental workout (I'm both mathematically and scientifically inclined) and it just made life that much easier to not have to worry about what came after it.
I had two more social experiences today. The first one was about this girl I'm attracted to. We were having a discussion at her locker about how she hadn't studied for her biology test. I was like, awesome, maybe I'd have a chance to help, since I know my fair share of science materials. Well, she pulled out her book and it was on (of all things) Evolution. I see her pull it out and in my head I'm thinking "crap, this isn't going to turn out well". She starts talking and goes to "I hate evolution..." Me *tentatively* "Why's that?"...She says "Because they're teaching it like it's actual fact. It's actually just a theory. I know it's whats believed, but I still have serious doubts about it".
I slowly put my head down and pass it off. I know she's a christian (most people here are). I just didn't think she was one of the 'intelligent design' bunch. Since she is I'm going to be a bit more hesitant in revealing my atheist nature(and I mean that in the most positive way I can. Anyone who knows me would say I am incredibly outgoing and moral). I still am really attracted to her, but I sort of lost a bit of hope here. I don't know if I should go for a relationship or drop it and not attempt anything. If I should go for a relationship (i'm really hoping), is there an easier way to go about it?
Also, in our lunch, my friends and I were talking, and one of my friends starts talking about his beliefs to some of the other people sitting with us, and since I didn't want to get in an argument, I just sat back and listened. However, one of my friends that I've had for a long time, and I was pretty close with, looks at him, and goes "Whatever you do, don't be an atheist." She then proceeds to give me dirty looks. I hadn't had any dispute with her before, and we had actually sort of discussed our beliefs before. I have no idea where that came from. It's a little disturbing. And depressing :'(.
Sorry to unload so much on you guys. I just have nobody really I can talk to here at home. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
~A light in the middle of a dark room.
Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God"
-
Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.
That does suck slightly. I'm rather torn on athiest/theit relationships,especially in teen years when emotions are rampant. I can sympathise here with you here.Almost all my friends are christian,including all but one of the girls I've fancied. Maybe it could work, but you'd probably both have to agree not to discuss beliefs. As for "intelligent design bunch" hay,at least you do get some moderates there.I don't think we have any. Lastly,not to sound condescending,but you're 15.You don't need a realtionship right now so don't stress it too much.
I know where you're coming from.Many times I have listened to christians sprouting off some rididculous claims and have sat back,silently screaming inside.Either because I wasn't out the closet at the time,or just didn't have the energy for a arguement.However, I would encourage you to speak out whenever you can.Only by this can we raise the awareness we need.As for the disparging remark,ya it sucks. I've had good friends who are christians suddenly and painfully attack me.If it happens alot, you may just have to leave them. Or when people don't know(or care) you're atheist and you hear them saying theists are immoral,depressed people.Just have to prove them wrong..
I hope I helped slightly.Don't worry,I have no one to talk to at home either.I'll leave it at that before this turns into a teenhelp forum.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
"Rational people with irrational claims"
Yeah like people saying I AM not GOD as YOU
so sad ..... 
funny too 
Atheism Books.
I find it astounding that in the 21st century someone in the west would be treated this way. I feel for you Alex. You’re an intelligent thoughtful person and should not be ostracised because of others superstitious beliefs.
It’s a pity you weren’t born in Britain. No one here cares about religion and most 15 year old girls are easy!
Or were when I was that age...
If you really like this girl then by all means ask her out. You should however let her know about your beliefs early on and ask that you don’t discuss it much. If she likes you too then she will agree and not make an issue of it either. If she doesn’t respect your wish then she is not worth the time. Move on mate – plenty more fish in the sea and all that!
"Try to tell the truth and stand your ground.
Don't let the bastards get you down." – Kris Kristofferson
Wow thanks guys! I'm already feeling a bit better and more confident. Yeah, it'd be nice if I was born in Britain
. I think I'm gonna try to get to know her a bit better, then maybe ask her. I'll also try to keep my eyes open for another (not magical fairy believing) fish in the sea. Of course, the best I could hope for would be one that doesn't believe strictly in the bible, but theist is unfortunately, a given. 
~Alex
Living life to its fullest, without the need for a "God"
-
Becoming an Atheist has made my world make sense, but the people in it less and less so.
Not necessarily a given. Just wait until college.
I agree with Loc, at 15 a relationship is really not necessary. Besides, give it a few years and you might have luck with an older crowd. Once you hit your 20's, age differences start to matter less in relationships. Especially in academia. There are two girls I'm attracted too right now (One is an atheist, the other is almost an atheist but still considers herself pretty spiritual. She's really against organized religion though, and they're both interested in getting involved with the Secular Society that we started on campus). Assume as a general rule that if you're at a decent college in 3 years, you're going to meet other freethinkers. If I were you, I'd consider taking some Biological Anthropology classes, since you're math/science-inclined. Plenty of freethinkers in that department, considering it focuses primarily on human evolution and our relationships with other living things.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”