Feminism and Sexy Rationalists
Offline I had a chance to recently read excerpts of Ariel Levy's Female Chauvanist Pigs. It is a lengthy discourse on how pornography has become mainstream. For example, the book describes women "objectifying" themselves by attending pole dancing classes or wearing cleavage showing crop tops with the Playboy emblem. Essentially the book is an attack on the pornification of culture and that women who participate in this raunch culture are being negatively conditioned by patriarchy.
The book has been lauded by some on the sister site called Skepchicks, a website of rationalist/atheist women. Yet paradoxically, the folks on the site have themselves posed in erotic photos as part of the Skepchicks calendar. Even Rebecca Watson, one of the founders of Skepchick (and who posed for the calendar), has written pro-porn blogs. I find it very hard to believe that she is being hood-winked by male domination.
If you have read about Scarlett Johanssen, you'll get a sense of how rational she is on life in general not to mention that she is a committed atheist. And yet she is being duped by patriarchy for showing her cleavage?
If rational women want to look sexy and be objectified (if you want to call it that) by choice then I have a tough time buying Levy's argument. And for that matter, I have a tough time understanding what mainstream feminism is trying to accomplish in this regard. I know a number of intelligent women (eg. in Law and Medicine) who choose to wear tank tops and thongs at Halloween parties. And yes, the men at those parties will get boners. And mainstream feminists self-righteously call this Sluto-ween. In atheistic and more gender inclusive societies such as Norway or Sweden, there is far more raunch in the mainstream compared to the US. In a free, secular, liberal, democratic society wherein civil liberties are upheld, men and women have a choice of doing whatever they want as long as the rights of others are not violated. I just don't see anything wrong with a person wanting to look sexy. Am I wrong in this point of view? Or am I being blinded by patriarchy?
I think everybody knows how I would respond. Never could decide between Aphrodite and Athena...so I want to be both.
I've gots ta git B-to-tha-izzack ta plott'n mah nefarious pizzle ta destroy tha public image of atheists n bitchez.So that pole dancing class I took objectified myself...wow, I was doing it to strenghen my body but what the hell do I know?
Revelations 1:3
Everwun what reedz these wurdz will has cheezburgrz and everwun what heerz theez wurdz will has cheezburgrz. Also, pay attenshuns, cuz iz comin. Habeeb it.
Taken from the lolcat bible
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Revelation_1
Thanks for the GIRL topic again ragdish.
- Generalizing, a rant, partly joking, evolution is so damn slow -
Guys way of thinking ruins about everything. It's so awful our embarrassing history of keeping women as slaves. I look at men in disgust. We in the west haven't progressed much ahead of the mid-east.
I see men as weak, dumb innocent fools of our animalistic tendencies. To make progress Women must keep fighting male dominance. It is always the repressed that make for positive change. Progressive bold women are real heros.
Sometimes I wish I was a beautiful smart woman, then I could better shake things up, and yeah I would really flaunt my stuff. Women are so beautiful, and men are hypnotized IDIOTS. Yeah I AM prejudice, go girls, I am sick of men. Outlaw clothes ! ( unless it's cold )
I trust women, more than men. Is it any wonder?
Patriarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy
I think a woman that does what ever the fuck she wants is sexy. If its showing off those big boobies or wearing a burka if its her choice its the right choice.
Men are scum. Men are responsible for wars and slavery. Ultimately men are responsible for religious fundamentalism and totalitarianism. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the Inquisition, Hutus, etc...all men. Men lie, cheat, steal, murder and rape. And even the best of us, socially engineered to "perfection" like Gandhi were pricks to their spouses. Even Karl Marx couldn't perfect men.
So where do we go from here? Short of aborting fetuses who are XY, what is your rational solution? What is your blueprint for utopia?
Get drunk while we can and let the girls do it their way.
You say that like its a bad thing >.>
What is it YOU want? "The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, utter domination of the Known Worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in terrible, highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
that selfish little big oh dick , damn it hurts ....
I am god as you, im not sure if you familar with the LFG comic series, but that was the perfect retort, and had me laughing my ass off
Edit; BOO! no changing the post, its not funny any more ...
What is it YOU want? "The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, utter domination of the Known Worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in terrible, highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Girl Girls Girls, LFG ? ,
laughing , fucking , girls ?
sounds good to me
lets promote it !
all GIRLS ....
In an alternate reality, the matriarchy develops weapons of mass passive-aggression, capable of damage which confounds retaliation by making the enemy believe they've already done so.
If values were unified, any society could be perfect. If we all loved killing each other, and had no urge to settle into agriculture, we'd have been content long ago. There will always be persistent bubbles of discontentment destabilizing society. I'd err on the side of liberalism so as many people have the right to happiness as possible as long as they don't hurt anyone.
to the Glory of us ALL
Motley Crue - Girls, Girls, Girls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJrSyFpK3iQ
Now let the girls do their thing ! be no fool , WE are ONE !
Why do i feel an "unless" coming on? ;-p
What is it YOU want? "The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, utter domination of the Known Worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in terrible, highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
We rock , save an xian
Each of these men had a woman in their life...and if not one as a partner a mother at the least. I wonder if women bring out the worst in men....?
Revelations 1:3
Everwun what reedz these wurdz will has cheezburgrz and everwun what heerz theez wurdz will has cheezburgrz. Also, pay attenshuns, cuz iz comin. Habeeb it.
Taken from the lolcat bible
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Revelation_1
Unfortunately drunk men can be violent. I suggest getting them drunk and exiling them all to the Russian tundra for an extended period whilst the girls rule. But not all girls. I'm sure you'd agree that some girls like Ann Coulter ought to be exiled with them.
While I class myself as a feminist in many respects, I will admit that I am most likely a dick. As for girls who just doll themselves up and don't leave anything to the imagination - I don't actually find them sexy because it gives the impression (although not necessarily true) that she is just a sex object with no intelligence. I actually find myself drawn towards women who don't put everything on show, and prefer going down the pub for a drink and an intellectual conversation.
Similarly with porn, I prefer watching it when its two normal people, just doing it than when you just have fucked up blonde girls doing whatever the man says.
Out of curiosity, how is watching and masturbating to "two normal people" in a porn video any less objectifying. And how does "doll" oneself imply lack of intelligence. When the character Julia in Orwell's 1984 tore off her Party uniform and dolled herself by painting her face and wearing a dress, did her character suddenly become less intelligent? Would you think any less of that intellectual woman in the pub if she decided to dress sexy?
John Anderson - Somebody Slap Me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTyEScrJwUw
in any color, all styles, all ages, wow girls ! I luv you ....
It's not the case that I actually believe this. Its more that this impression is given, when loud, gobby girls go out in mid-December in nothing but a mini-skirt and boob-tube or whatever the latest fashion is these days. Of course, they may well be rather intelligent, but any interaction I've had with this sort of girl has proved otherwise. Its not about getting dolled up, or making themselves look nice, its just the specific sort of girl.
Just so I don't get misrepresented. Its the impression given, not the actual facts. Sexual attraction is a lot about representations and appearance... you simply can't actually rationalise it.
Hey The Doomed Soul, that "LFG comic series" speaks volumes ....
http://lfgcomic.com/page/1
Looking For Group: Slaughter Your World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g
I'm all for everybody doing/dressing however they please, although if you're rocking the muffin-top, please look at yourself before leaving home. The one thing I find odd about feminism is how quickly it turns into man-hating. Feminism is supposed to be about equality and women doing the things that they want to do, but it seems to result in male bashing in most social circles. I find this odd and troubling. All men are not assholes any more than all women are vapid idiots. The generalization bothers me.
Just for the record...I happen to like men. In some places more than others. :-P
I've gots ta git B-to-tha-izzack ta plott'n mah nefarious pizzle ta destroy tha public image of atheists n bitchez.I couldn't agree more. Men are dogs but some are sweet, cute, furry and cuddly. And all you need to do to keep them happy and tame is to give them daily beef jerky and a leg to hump. Ahhhhhhh! The simple things in life.
All joking aside, a detailed analysis of contemporary feminism reveals a wide array of ideologies. What the mainstream portrays is a restricted point of view on issues such as beauty/sex in the media or pornography. Libertarian or equity feminists such as Wendy McElroy (also an atheist/rationalist) who wrote XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography (http://www.wendymcelroy.com/xxx/) are regarded as anti-feminists for not following the party line. Other women like Violet Blue (who wrote The Smart Girl's Guide to Porn) or Rachel Kramer Bussel (the Lusty Lady) are similarly viewed as unmutuals. All of these women uphold reproductive rights, eliminate violence against women, equality under the law, freedom of expression and civil liberties. But if any of them give even a hint of a thumbs up to a crop top, they are branded as heretics by the mainstream. Does any of this sound familiar? Religious fundamentalism perhaps?
Where do you get that from? I'm Norwegian, and there's not a lot of raunch in the Norwegian mainstream...I think what you mean is that a lot of European countries have a more liberal attitude toward sexual imagery, which is true. That's because Europeans are taught at a young age that people get naked, have sex and make babies. For some reason this knowledge is considered too dangerous for young people in the United States.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Hey missed ya geirj ,
yeah, we is way fucked up in the U.S.A. The whole world is nuts for that matter ! When we can all agree on that , we will improve; awfully sad ain't it .... well at least some care .... that is good .... no masters, no borders , no countries .... and girls as equals .... and beer galore
I need to clarify further. I meant exactly what you stated, a healthy, liberal attitude towards sexuality. Correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't imagine anyone in Norway raising an outcry over what sexy clothing an individual wears. Denmark, Sweden, Holland and Norway are far more sexually enlightened IMO.
That stated, the Norwegians did give us Lene Alexandra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqGrgaQsIIE). I think Norway is still enlightened anyways.
I think we in England are more similar to the US in this respect, although perhaps not quite so prudish. We don't like talking about sex with people outside our own generation. The very thought of talking about sex with our parents just feels wrong, similarly I think parents are reluctant to have 'the talk' until well into their children's teenage years. My dad's "talk" with me was simply: "Do you know what a condom is?" "No." "Its something you put over your penis when you have sex to stop her getting pregnant. Always use one. Goodnight."
In primary school in England (equiavalent to elementary in the US) it was absurd for a boy even to talk to a girl. Girls were "nasty, smelly, etc" and to have a girlfriend was even worse. In my last year of primary school my family moved to Scotland and the culture was entirely different, boys and girls could be friends and it was fine, and have girlfriends and no one cared, and it wasn't just that I'd got older because all the other years in the school were the same. My friend in France has a young sister (about 6-7) who's had "boyfriends" before and its not uncommon.
Basically English people are a bunch of prudes.