An explanation for why theists trot out the same shit?

Fire
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An explanation for why theists trot out the same shit?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/03/AR2007090300933_pf.html

Quote:

The Washington Post posted:

Persistence of Myths Could Alter Public Policy Approach

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 4, 2007; A03

The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently issued a flier to combat myths about the flu vaccine. It recited various commonly held views and labeled them either "true" or "false." Among those identified as false were statements such as "The side effects are worse than the flu" and "Only older people need flu vaccine."

When University of Michigan social psychologist Norbert Schwarz had volunteers read the CDC flier, however, he found that within 30 minutes, older people misremembered 28 percent of the false statements as true. Three days later, they remembered 40 percent of the myths as factual.

Younger people did better at first, but three days later they made as many errors as older people did after 30 minutes. Most troubling was that people of all ages now felt that the source of their false beliefs was the respected CDC.

The psychological insights yielded by the research, which has been confirmed in a number of peer-reviewed laboratory experiments, have broad implications for public policy. The conventional response to myths and urban legends is to counter bad information with accurate information. But the new psychological studies show that denials and clarifications, for all their intuitive appeal, can paradoxically contribute to the resiliency of popular myths.

This phenomenon may help explain why large numbers of Americans incorrectly think that Saddam Hussein was directly involved in planning the Sept 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and that most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Iraqi. While these beliefs likely arose because Bush administration officials have repeatedly tried to connect Iraq with Sept. 11, the experiments suggest that intelligence reports and other efforts to debunk this account may in fact help keep it alive.

Similarly, many in the Arab world are convinced that the destruction of the World Trade Center on Sept. 11 was not the work of Arab terrorists but was a controlled demolition; that 4,000 Jews working there had been warned to stay home that day; and that the Pentagon was struck by a missile rather than a plane.

Those notions remain widespread even though the federal government now runs Web sites in seven languages to challenge them. Karen Hughes, who runs the Bush administration's campaign to win hearts and minds in the fight against terrorism, recently painted a glowing report of the "digital outreach" teams working to counter misinformation and myths by challenging those ideas on Arabic blogs.

A report last year by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, however, found that the number of Muslims worldwide who do not believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks is soaring -- to 59 percent of Turks and Egyptians, 65 percent of Indonesians, 53 percent of Jordanians, 41 percent of Pakistanis and even 56 percent of British Muslims.

Research on the difficulty of debunking myths has not been specifically tested on beliefs about Sept. 11 conspiracies or the Iraq war. But because the experiments illuminate basic properties of the human mind, psychologists such as Schwarz say the same phenomenon is probably implicated in the spread and persistence of a variety of political and social myths.

The research does not absolve those who are responsible for promoting myths in the first place. What the psychological studies highlight, however, is the potential paradox in trying to fight bad information with good information.

Schwarz's study was published this year in the journal Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, but the roots of the research go back decades. As early as 1945, psychologists Floyd Allport and Milton Lepkin found that the more often people heard false wartime rumors, the more likely they were to believe them.

The research is painting a broad new understanding of how the mind works. Contrary to the conventional notion that people absorb information in a deliberate manner, the studies show that the brain uses subconscious "rules of thumb" that can bias it into thinking that false information is true. Clever manipulators can take advantage of this tendency.

The experiments also highlight the difference between asking people whether they still believe a falsehood immediately after giving them the correct information, and asking them a few days later. Long-term memories matter most in public health campaigns or political ones, and they are the most susceptible to the bias of thinking that well-recalled false information is true.

The experiments do not show that denials are completely useless; if that were true, everyone would believe the myths. But the mind's bias does affect many people, especially those who want to believe the myth for their own reasons, or those who are only peripherally interested and are less likely to invest the time and effort needed to firmly grasp the facts.

The research also highlights the disturbing reality that once an idea has been implanted in people's minds, it can be difficult to dislodge. Denials inherently require repeating the bad information, which may be one reason they can paradoxically reinforce it.

Indeed, repetition seems to be a key culprit. Things that are repeated often become more accessible in memory, and one of the brain's subconscious rules of thumb is that easily recalled things are true.

Many easily remembered things, in fact, such as one's birthday or a pet's name, are indeed true. But someone trying to manipulate public opinion can take advantage of this aspect of brain functioning. In politics and elsewhere, this means that whoever makes the first assertion about something has a large advantage over everyone who denies it later.

Furthermore, a new experiment by Kimberlee Weaver at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and others shows that hearing the same thing over and over again from one source can have the same effect as hearing that thing from many different people -- the brain gets tricked into thinking it has heard a piece of information from multiple, independent sources, even when it has not. Weaver's study was published this year in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

The experiments by Weaver, Schwarz and others illustrate another basic property of the mind -- it is not good at remembering when and where a person first learned something. People are not good at keeping track of which information came from credible sources and which came from less trustworthy ones, or even remembering that some information came from the same untrustworthy source over and over again. Even if a person recognizes which sources are credible and which are not, repeated assertions and denials can have the effect of making the information more accessible in memory and thereby making it feel true, said Schwarz.

Experiments by Ruth Mayo, a cognitive social psychologist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, also found that for a substantial chunk of people, the "negation tag" of a denial falls off with time. Mayo's findings were published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology in 2004.

"If someone says, 'I did not harass her,' I associate the idea of harassment with this person," said Mayo, explaining why people who are accused of something but are later proved innocent find their reputations remain tarnished. "Even if he is innocent, this is what is activated when I hear this person's name again.

"If you think 9/11 and Iraq, this is your association, this is what comes in your mind," she added. "Even if you say it is not true, you will eventually have this connection with Saddam Hussein and 9/11."

Mayo found that rather than deny a false claim, it is better to make a completely new assertion that makes no reference to the original myth. Rather than say, as Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) recently did during a marathon congressional debate, that "Saddam Hussein did not attack the United States; Osama bin Laden did," Mayo said it would be better to say something like, "Osama bin Laden was the only person responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks" -- and not mention Hussein at all.

The psychologist acknowledged that such a statement might not be entirely accurate -- issuing a denial or keeping silent are sometimes the only real options.

So is silence the best way to deal with myths? Unfortunately, the answer to that question also seems to be no.

Another recent study found that when accusations or assertions are met with silence, they are more likely to feel true, said Peter Kim, an organizational psychologist at the University of Southern California. He published his study in the Journal of Applied Psychology.

Myth-busters, in other words, have the odds against them.

I had been wondering why it seemed like people would always post the same easily taken care of arguements in favor of theism over and over as if they were new and perhaps this is why. It would also explain Why Theists Don't Believe What Atheists Tell Them About Atheism

 


geirj
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Fire wrote: Indeed,

Fire wrote:


Indeed, repetition seems to be a key culprit. Things that are repeated often become more accessible in memory, and one of the brain's subconscious rules of thumb is that easily recalled things are true.


The experiments by Weaver, Schwarz and others illustrate another basic property of the mind -- it is not good at remembering when and where a person first learned something. People are not good at keeping track of which information came from credible sources and which came from less trustworthy ones, or even remembering that some information came from the same untrustworthy source over and over again. Even if a person recognizes which sources are credible and which are not, repeated assertions and denials can have the effect of making the information more accessible in memory and thereby making it feel true, said Schwarz.

Theism, in a nutshell.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


JCE
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Why do theists trot out the

Why do theists trot out the same shit? 

What else have they got?  I mean, it isn't like they can actually expand on their stories with scientific research, is it?  They really have no choice but to repeat the same tripe over and over and over and over.....

Sad, is what it is. 


Tilberian
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Thank you for that, Fire,

Thank you for that, Fire, that is very interesting stuff. It brings to mind the atheist critics I've been wrangling with on YouTube over the ChristMyAss video. They whine on and on about our use of naughty language and in-your-face challenges, pointing out that we aren't behaving strictly "rationally" and that we are likely angering and alienating theists. Their preferred method, as far as I can tell, is to do exactly what this article (and history) suggests doesn't work: counter bad information with good information. They want to sit there an patiently and calmly and politely explain the logical and philosphical fallacies to theists. Well, guess what. IT DOESN'T WORK. In order to get people to remember your message it must be attention getting and have often-repeated hooks that stick in memory, like the Blasphemy Challenge. the minute you repeat the myth, if only to debunk it immediately, you have just refreshed the bad information in the listener's mind and they are just as likely to remember only the bad point later.

I think we're doing the right thing in offering a mix of reasoned debate and flat-out ridicule. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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Fascinating findings. (I

Fascinating findings. (I read them somewhere, so they must be true. lol)

Quote:
So is silence the best way to deal with myths? Unfortunately, the answer to that question also seems to be no.

This should go on the front page of RRS and be quoted anytime I'm-an-atheist-buts try to attack RRS. 

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Tilberian wrote: Thank you

Tilberian wrote:

Thank you for that, Fire, that is very interesting stuff. It brings to mind the atheist critics I've been wrangling with on YouTube over the ChristMyAss video. They whine on and on about our use of naughty language and in-your-face challenges, pointing out that we aren't behaving strictly "rationally" and that we are likely angering and alienating theists. Their preferred method, as far as I can tell, is to do exactly what this article (and history) suggests doesn't work: counter bad information with good information. They want to sit there an patiently and calmly and politely explain the logical and philosphical fallacies to theists. Well, guess what. IT DOESN'T WORK. In order to get people to remember your message it must be attention getting and have often-repeated hooks that stick in memory, like the Blasphemy Challenge. the minute you repeat the myth, if only to debunk it immediately, you have just refreshed the bad information in the listener's mind and they are just as likely to remember only the bad point later.

I think we're doing the right thing in offering a mix of reasoned debate and flat-out ridicule.

I concur with Tiberian. Respect is given as it is earned to nice people(theist or not).

Curiosity prompts me to ask how often do we meet people that consider our words in front of us or actually 'get back to us'?

 

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JCE wrote: Why do theists

JCE wrote:

Why do theists trot out the same shit?

What else have they got? I mean, it isn't like they can actually expand on their stories with scientific research, is it? They really have no choice but to repeat the same tripe over and over and over and over.....

Sad, is what it is.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." 

Weapons of mass destruction anyone ?  


Tilberian
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natural wrote: This should

natural wrote:

This should go on the front page of RRS and be quoted anytime I'm-an-atheist-buts try to attack RRS.

I agree, natural. The information in this article is so important to the RRS approach that it really should be stickied somewhere. 

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natural wrote: This

natural wrote:

This should go on the front page of RRS and be quoted anytime I'm-an-atheist-buts try to attack RRS.

Tilberian wrote:
I agree, natural. The information in this article is so important to the RRS approach that it really should be stickied somewhere.

I also agree. I think it is vital in understanding why humans hold onto so many irrational beliefs. I think it can be very useful in communicating with theists.

Thanks for posting this.

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Very interesting. This

Very interesting. This definitely explains why regular church-going is pretty much compulsory in Christianity. If you've ever been to church, about 80-85% of the content is just repetition of the previous weeks service.

It also explains why learning prayers is so important to these people. After saying "Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" or "We believe in one god, the father the almighty - maker of heaven and earth," a few times, the same effect will be in play.


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"If you tell a lie long

"If you tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough, the people will believe it. The secret to get someone to believe a lie is constant repetition. Just tell it over, and over, and over again." - Adolph Hitler

"See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." - George W. Bush

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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That makes sense, from what

That makes sense, from what I understand about the way our minds work.

So the best strategy is to present what science, or serious historical research, etc, tells us seems to be the best actual understanding of whatever the topic is, in positive terms, rather than explicit refutations of the Theists points, as far as possible.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Great stuff. It's damn

Great stuff. It's damn interesting, I think, especially considering many of the things that are said about RRS. Consider how many theist and atheist bloggers call us immature, irrational, juvenile, etc. The first time I ever heard these words about RRS was right when the Blasphemy Challenge was issued. They've been all over the media, both internet and print, ever since. Oddly enough, when the accusers are asked for concrete documentation of this behavior, they can't seem to come up with anything.

Yes, we're brash, in-your-face, and intolerant of bullshit, but despite the fact that these qualities have nothing to do with maturity level or rationality, these epithets have stuck.

It doesn't make it any easier to stomach this kind of thing, but it does make it easier to understand.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote: Great

Hambydammit wrote:

Great stuff. It's damn interesting, I think, especially considering many of the things that are said about RRS. Consider how many theist and atheist bloggers call us immature, irrational, juvenile, etc. The first time I ever heard these words about RRS was right when the Blasphemy Challenge was issued. They've been all over the media, both internet and print, ever since. Oddly enough, when the accusers are asked for concrete documentation of this behavior, they can't seem to come up with anything.

Yes, we're brash, in-your-face, and intolerant of bullshit, but despite the fact that these qualities have nothing to do with maturity level or rationality, these epithets have stuck.

It doesn't make it any easier to stomach this kind of thing, but it does make it easier to understand.

But more than that, Hamby, it shows that the RRS's methods are the right ones! I'm seeing a lot of atheists these days saying that our approach is hurting the cause and that we should stick to taking the high road, intellectually and behaviourally. But the simple fact, made clear in this study, is that PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ARGUMENTS. At least not at first. Our first priority has to be to get their attention and plant a message - and is how the RRS is focused. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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BobSpence
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Tilberian

Tilberian wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Great stuff. It's damn interesting, I think, especially considering many of the things that are said about RRS. Consider how many theist and atheist bloggers call us immature, irrational, juvenile, etc. The first time I ever heard these words about RRS was right when the Blasphemy Challenge was issued. They've been all over the media, both internet and print, ever since. Oddly enough, when the accusers are asked for concrete documentation of this behavior, they can't seem to come up with anything.

Yes, we're brash, in-your-face, and intolerant of bullshit, but despite the fact that these qualities have nothing to do with maturity level or rationality, these epithets have stuck.

It doesn't make it any easier to stomach this kind of thing, but it does make it easier to understand.

But more than that, Hamby, it shows that the RRS's methods are the right ones! I'm seeing a lot of atheists these days saying that our approach is hurting the cause and that we should stick to taking the high road, intellectually and behaviourally. But the simple fact, made clear in this study, is that PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ARGUMENTS. At least not at first. Our first priority has to be to get their attention and plant a message - and is how the RRS is focused.

Also reminds me of the continuing accusations from both sides that our approach will never  'convert' anyone, despite the evidence that quite a few people are happy to acknowledge that we have indeed helped them to free themselves of the dogma.

Yes, we have to GET THEIR ATTENTION!

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Tilberian wrote: I'm seeing

Tilberian wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of atheists these days saying that our approach is hurting the cause and that we should stick to taking the high road, intellectually and behaviourally.

For me, I try to take the high road. But with the absurdity of religious beliefs it's sometimes very difficult to do that.

When somebody tells me that they believe that Jesus is coming back soon and that when he does, corpses will fly up from their graves to meet him in the sky, it's hard for me to respond to that intellectually.

I could say, "I think you and I have different opinions about reality." But it's all I can do to keep from shouting, "You need some serious psychotherapy Bubba!!"

 

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Excellent articles!  This

Excellent articles!  This post should get stickied.

 

~Wordplayer