Anyone want to build a Church?

Beyond Saving
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Anyone want to build a Church?

I received the following message in my e-mail yesterday. GREETINGS IN JESUS NAME. I AM MOTHER MARY JONES FROM NETHERLAND A WIDOW TO LATE MR. PATRICK JONES. I AM 61 YEARS OLD,AND A CHRISTAIN,SUFFERING FROM LONG TIME CANCER OF THE BREAST, ALL INDICATION FROM MY DOCTOR THAT MY CONDITIONS IS REALLY DETERIORATING AND IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT I WOULDN'T LIVE LONG ACCORDING TO MY DOCTORS, AND IN ALL INDICATION REGARDING TO MEDICAL ANALYSIS, THIS IS BECAUSE THE CANCER DISEASE HAS GOTTEN TO A VERY BAD STAGE THAT NO HOPE FOR ME TO BE A LIVING PERSON AGAIN. MY LATE HUSBAND WAS KILLED DURING THE HURRICAN DISASTER, IN NEW ORLEANS AND DURING THE PERIOD OF OUR MARRIAGE WE COULD NOT PRODUCE ANY CHILD.MY LATE HUSBAND WAS VERY WEALTHY AND AFTER HIS DEATH, I INHERITED ALL HIS BUSINESS AND WEALTH. THE DOCTORS HAS ADVISED ME THAT I MAY NOT LIVE FOR MORE THAN THREE MONTHS, SO I NOW DECIEDED TO DIVIDE PART OF THIS WEALTH, TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE CHURCH IN AFRICA, AMERICA, ASIA AND EUROPE ESPECAILLY CREATE SOLUTION TO PROBLEM OF LESS PREVILLAGED ONES AND ORPHANAGE HOMES. I SELECTED YOU AFTER VIEWING YOUR CONTACT ON A WEBSITE WHICH I AM WILLING TO DONATE THE SUM OF ($4.7 Million USD) FOUR MILLION SEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND U.S DOLLARS, TO THE LESS PRIVILEGED. PLEASE I WANT YOU TO NOTE THAT THIS FUND IS IN THE SECURITY COMPANY AND UPON MY INSTRUCTION, MY ATTORNEY,WHOM CHAMBERS ARE IN LONDON AND ALSO DISTRIBUTING RELIEF MATERIALS TO HELP CENTRES AND HE IS ALSO BASED IN LONDON WHICH ALSO HE WILL FILE IN AN APPLICATION FOR THE RELEASE OF THE MONEY IN YOUR NAME. LASTLY, I HONESTLY PRAYED THAT THIS MONEY WHEN RELEASED WILL BE USED FOR THE SAID PURPOSE EVEN THOUGH I AM LATE THEN, BUT BECAUSE I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT WEALTH ACQUISITION WITHOUT CHRIST IS VANITY AND I MADE PROMISE TO GOD THAT THE FUND WILL BE USE TO BUILD HIS TEMPLE. MAY THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF GOD BE WITH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. I AWAIT URGENT REPLY. REMAIN BLESSED GOD BLESS YOU. MRS.MARY JONESI know Christians are gullible but how do people actually fall for this shit?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:
I know Christians are gullible but how do people actually fall for this shit?

I'm sure someone will fall for it and it shows you one thing - exactly how gullible people believe Christians to be.  I'm sure the typical Nigerian scam isn't working as much anymore with all the public awareness campaigns so it looks like they put a Jesus twist on it. 


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Hey, that's how I drink my

Hey, that's how I drink my martini, chilled Bombay Sapphire and a twist of Jesus.


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If I wanted to build a

If I wanted to build a building I would build something that was actually useful.


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They fall for it every damn

They fall for it every damn day, its probally a scam based outa nigeria.


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Wow, that was bad.  I don't

Wow, that was bad.  I don't think anyone could possibly take that seriously.  The English was terrible.  And why was her husband killed in the hurricane if they live in the Netherlands?  If he was extremely wealthy I'm sure it would have been on the news.  lol. I like the original scams much better...

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hey pariah i like your new

hey pariah i like your new pic, it looks like you're standing in your kitchen nude.


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Gauche wrote: hey pariah i

Gauche wrote:
hey pariah i like your new pic, it looks like you're standing in your kitchen nude.

Yikes, creepy, yet apropos for a guy named Gauche.  Thanks for maintaining a plausible world scenario for me.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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Nero wrote: Gauche

Nero wrote:

Gauche wrote:
hey pariah i like your new pic, it looks like you're standing in your kitchen nude.

Yikes, creepy, yet apropos for a guy named Gauche. Thanks for maintaining a plausible world scenario for me.

that's funny because creepy to me is a guy calling himself nero who doesn't believe in givng rice to starving children.

and if she's wearing a shirt in that photo i'll eat my hat. 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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That was pretty creepy

That was pretty creepy Gauche. You have to admit.


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i feel like rip van winkle

i feel like rip van winkle only when i woke up people had stopped having fun.


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What is creepy about a nude

What is creepy about a nude girl in a kitchen?

I'm with Left.


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Gauche wrote: Nero

Gauche wrote:
Nero wrote:

Gauche wrote:
hey pariah i like your new pic, it looks like you're standing in your kitchen nude.

Yikes, creepy, yet apropos for a guy named Gauche. Thanks for maintaining a plausible world scenario for me.

that's funny because creepy to me is a guy calling himself nero who doesn't believe in givng rice to starving children.

and if she's wearing a shirt in that photo i'll eat my hat. 

See, folks?  This is what I was saying in my post about being out of sync.  This guy makes an allusion with unknown intent about a young woman, and I poke a little fun.  Then, he says that a guy named Nero not feeding the poor is creepy. 

So, I sit and think.  What Nero in history was all about feeding starving waifs?  Furthermore, why is referencing that historical individual creepy?  That doesn't add up for me.

I guess when I chose the name Nero, I thought people would assume that I was talking about Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus.  You know, the guy who rules Rome for 14 years and liked to use Christians as tiki torches at his parties. 

I could see it being creepy ig I chose Tiberius and didn't like children.  Tiberius was a paedorest and liked kids, but I chose Nero.  Sorry, Gauche, you'll have to help me on this one.  Or maybe I can get Shelley to translate for me.

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Milkshake89 wrote: What is

Milkshake89 wrote:
What is creepy about a nude girl in a kitchen?

I'm with Left.

First, nothing is creepy about a woman in her kitchen.  Commenting on it is what is creepy.  Further, I don't mean creepy like nasty.  I mean creepy like "Hey, that guy in the overcoat is watching that playground full of kids awfully closely."

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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well, whether or not it's

well, whether or not it's creepy to call oneself after a brutal despot and then show not only a complete lack of concern but also an utter disdain for the starving masses of people, i will leave up to the peanut gallery.

there are really three things that need to be addressed here.

1. the woman in the photo is an adult so i can make as many lewd comments as i want about her and never be a pedophile so talk about playgrounds really isn't applicable here.

2. if i really wanted to creep you out i would tell you that i've been bar hopping for the last two nights looking for women that resemble the one in the photo for the purpose of sleeping with them.

and 3, you can't shame a person into compliance with societal norms when their name literally means lacking social graces.

as a side note i know a woman who takes nude photos of herself in her kitchen with food stuffs all over her body and then paints it. she's actually a brilliant painter imho. if anyone would like to see a website with examples of her work i'd be happy to give you a link. 

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote: well,

Gauche wrote:

well, whether or not it's creepy to call oneself after a brutal despot and then show not only a complete lack of concern but also an utter disdain for the starving masses of people, i will leave up to the peanut gallery.

there are really three things that need to be addressed here.

1. the woman in the photo is an adult so i can make as many lewd comments as i want about her and never be a pedophile so talk about playgrounds really isn't applicable here.

2. if i really wanted to creep you out i would tell you that i've been bar hopping for the last two nights looking for women that resemble the one in the photo for the purpose of sleeping with them.

and 3, you can't shame a person into compliance with societal norms when their name literally means lacking social graces.

as a side note i know a woman who takes nude photos of herself in her kitchen with food stuffs all over her body and then paints it. she's actually a brilliant painter imho. if anyone would like to see a website with examples of her work i'd be happy to give you a link. 

 

Excellent.  Secret perversion is always more dangerous than admitted perversion.  I appreciate that you have confessed these facts to us, the hoi polloi. 

First, I will address my own views and why Nero is a perfect nomenclature for me.  See?  I admit that I hate children and the impoverished.   You will find not a single commentary from me about protecting either group.  Both are constantly demanding attention, smell of putrification, and request unearned resources.  I am aware that I was once a child, but I hated every moment of it.  So, I know you wanted to chide me for this view, but my hatred of these groups is hardly novel or interesting.

What I think we all find interesting are the actions of a sexual deviant.  That makes for good reading.  So, not only would you freely make lascivious comments in public, but you would obsess about the subject as well.  Further, your obsession goes so far that you would comb bars for her doppelganger so that you could live out your fantasies.

I am not condemning you.  I might not choose to fixate on a photo of someone I've never met; however, I think that the majority of women would find this particular line of thought, this infatuation, distasteful.  Surely, you don't admit these truths when actually interacting with a young woman?  If you do, stop.  It will increase your likelihood of success.   

At any rate, thanks for the window into your quotidian existence.  Everything that I was hoping to discover and more is there; so, it was a real pleasure.  If there is anything else you would like to tell us, please do no hesitate.  Smiling

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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This reminds me of when I

This reminds me of when I was a freshman in college.  Our "group" had to make a little website for a project and one of the required components was an intro of the members.  One guy volunteered to make the page and we all gave him pictures of ourselves to scan in and put up.  I gave him my senior photo from High School.

Well, time flew by and next thing I knew it was the end of the semester and I hadn't gotten my photo back like everyone else in the group.  So I asked the guy about it...

Turns out he hadn't returned it because he had it next to his bed and was mastrubating to it every night.

JAcking off to my photo I obviously understand.  What I didn't understand was why he didn't just copy the photo or mastrubate to his computer screen, etc instead of "coming clean" about his little nightly deed. 


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shelleymtjoy

shelleymtjoy wrote:

 

JAcking off to my photo I obviously understand. 

Now, there is confidence.  lol  So, maybe there are women who don't mind that someone in a trench coat is masturbating to their photos!

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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Oh holy crap, what have I

Oh holy crap, what have I missed here!!!??  LOL.  Gauche, I am not wearing a shirt, but I am wearing a strapless bridesmaids dress in that picture.  I had no idea that pic would cause such controversy.  I just liked my hair in it. lol.  Eye-wink

 Oh, and this whole thread is creepy.  Sticking out tongue

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speaking of JAcking it

speaking of JAcking it looks like this thread got jacked. now that we've all been either creeped out, amused, flattered, disgusted or in some cases condemned; as well as learning about various forms of departure from socially-acceptable sexual norms and the power of a well-cropped photograph. i think it will be possible that we all commence from this point engaging life with a bit more wisdom and sensitivity.

it is a pretty nice pic though. good choice pariah. 

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote: i think it

Gauche wrote:

i think it will be possible that we all commence from this point engaging life with a bit more wisdom and sensitivity.

Anyone want to build a Church? 


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Gauche wrote: it is a

Gauche wrote:

it is a pretty nice pic though. good choice pariah. 

Thanks.  I suppose next time I post a picture I should look clothed in it, lol.

Ok, so back to the scams.  Who wants to buy a church? 

 

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We could always build an

We could always build an atheist church and get to organise ourselves tax free.


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Jacob Cordingley wrote: We

Jacob Cordingley wrote:
We could always build an atheist church and get to organise ourselves tax free.

So you want to build a hospital?  Awesome! 


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Yeah, a hospital's probably

Yeah, a hospital's probably much more useful. Plus judging from what I've heard you guys could do with an NHS! I wanna see Mikey Moore's new film.


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Jacob Cordingley

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Yeah, a hospital's probably much more useful. Plus judging from what I've heard you guys could do with an NHS! I wanna see Mikey Moore's new film.

Holy shit!  You have got to be kidding me!  I love the fact that my assets allow me to skip to the front of a line of homeless people and single mothers when I go to the hospital.  I don't want to get a requisition form three months in advance to have a heart attack.  I prefer to have it whenever I like and pass out knowing that I will wake up in a private room attended by personal physicians.  That's what getting sick is all about.

So, keep your anarchosyndicalist commune loving, hippie hands off my medical system.  If people want free medicine, they can become Canadian citizens.  I am pretty sure that the only requirement to Canadian citizenship is the ability to say "eh" and a love of hockey.

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Plus you have to have

Plus you have to have CAN$10,000 in the bank. Which, sadly, means you have to have US$10,000 thanks to our horrifically devalued currency:

http://immigration.about.com/od/immigrationissuescanada/a/Movetocanada.htm

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Jacob Cordingley

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Yeah, a hospital's probably much more useful. Plus judging from what I've heard you guys could do with an NHS! I wanna see Mikey Moore's new film.

Sicko sucked.  I saw it in one of those 'discount' theaters and I still can't believe I paid $3 to see that crap.  I even wrote to Michael Moore about how much it sucked and I still haven't received my 11 grand. 

(For those of you that didn't see it - in the movie he talks about sending an anonymous check to a critic so the critics wife can get medical care.) 


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Nero wrote: Holy shit!

Nero wrote:

Holy shit! You have got to be kidding me! I love the fact that my assets allow me to skip to the front of a line of homeless people and single mothers when I go to the hospital. I don't want to get a requisition form three months in advance to have a heart attack. I prefer to have it whenever I like and pass out knowing that I will wake up in a private room attended by personal physicians. That's what getting sick is all about.

So, keep your anarchosyndicalist commune loving, hippie hands off my medical system. If people want free medicine, they can become Canadian citizens. I am pretty sure that the only requirement to Canadian citizenship is the ability to say "eh" and a love of hockey.

I hear your Nero.  My insurance company has spent 3.8 Million on my chronic medical issues.  If I was Canadian or on medical assistance I would have died 4 years ago (assuming I didn't fall into a deep depression and kill myself first, that is.) 


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Beyond Saving wrote: I know

Beyond Saving wrote:
I know Christians are gullible but how do people actually fall for this shit?

They certainly do and it's amazingly amusing to witness.

"Late one afternoon in June, 2001, John W. Worley sat in a burgundy leather desk chair reading his e-mail. He was fifty-seven and burly, with glasses, a fringe of salt-and-pepper hair, and a bushy gray beard. A decorated Vietnam veteran and an ordained minister, he had a busy practice as a Christian psychotherapist, and, with his wife, Barbara, was the caretaker of a mansion on a historic estate in Groton, Massachusetts.

Worley scrolled through his in-box and opened an e-mail, addressed to CEO/Owner. The writer said that his name was Captain Joshua Mbote, and he offered an awkwardly phrased proposition: With regards to your trustworthiness and reliability, I decided to seek your assistance in transferring some money out of South Africa into your country...


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shelleymtjoy wrote:

shelleymtjoy wrote:

Jacob Cordingley wrote:
Yeah, a hospital's probably much more useful. Plus judging from what I've heard you guys could do with an NHS! I wanna see Mikey Moore's new film.

Sicko sucked. I saw it in one of those 'discount' theaters and I still can't believe I paid $3 to see that crap. I even wrote to Michael Moore about how much it sucked and I still haven't received my 11 grand.

(For those of you that didn't see it - in the movie he talks about sending an anonymous check to a critic so the critics wife can get medical care.)

So which part of Sicko 'sucked?' The part where Michael Moore was fat?


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Pile wrote: So which part

Pile wrote:

So which part of Sicko 'sucked?' The part where Michael Moore was fat?

Moore didn't expose anything.  All he did was film some examples of the well-known problems with the US Health Care system.  Of course he couldn't even find real examples...

(WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD)

For example the Mother whose childe insured by Kaiser died when she knowing went to a facility not approved by Kaiser for care.  By the time she finally decided to go to the Kaiser facility it was too late...  

Is this really supposed to make me hate the big bad insurance company?  Christ, even with socialist medical programs there are rules and regulations.  She knew she could only go to an approved facility and she chose to do otherwise.  When she told by medical authorities to where to take her child for care she chose to bitch with them for hours rather than call a cab.

I'm sincerly sorry her daughter is dead but Moore using this obviously flawed appeal to emotion to get my support and sympathy is a low blow.  Even for him. 


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Heh

Quote:

Holy shit! You have got to be kidding me! I love the fact that my assets allow me to skip to the front of a line of homeless people and single mothers when I go to the hospital. I don't want to get a requisition form three months in advance to have a heart attack. I prefer to have it whenever I like and pass out knowing that I will wake up in a private room attended by personal physicians. That's what getting sick is all about.

So, keep your anarchosyndicalist commune loving, hippie hands off my medical system. If people want free medicine, they can become Canadian citizens. I am pretty sure that the only requirement to Canadian citizenship is the ability to say "eh" and a love of hockey.

I hear your Nero. My insurance company has spent 3.8 Million on my chronic medical issues. If I was Canadian or on medical assistance I would have died 4 years ago (assuming I didn't fall into a deep depression and kill myself first, that is.)

What makes you think yu would be dead in canada?

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Zombie, I think I would be

Zombie,

I think I would be dead in Canada because only in some circumstances prescription meds are paid for.  I have a PICC line and receive twice daily IV meds in addition to 10 oral medications.

Also, Canada's 100% coverage does not provide for experimental treatments of which I have had many. Canadian health care would be great in some instances - an example if which is preventative health care.  Since it is free, more people are inclined to go at the first site of a problem.  However, this also results in there being way more primary care doctors and not enough specialists.  In my condition I can tell you with 100% honesty that I only see my primary care physician once a year and it's a waste of my time and his but my insurance requires it.  I see specialists 2-3 times a week.

If you need more examples, I'll go on... 


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shelleymtjoy wrote:

shelleymtjoy wrote:
Pile wrote:

So which part of Sicko 'sucked?' The part where Michael Moore was fat?

Moore didn't expose anything. All he did was film some examples of the well-known problems with the US Health Care system. Of course he couldn't even find real examples...

(WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD)

For example the Mother whose childe insured by Kaiser died when she knowing went to a facility not approved by Kaiser for care. By the time she finally decided to go to the Kaiser facility it was too late...

Is this really supposed to make me hate the big bad insurance company? Christ, even with socialist medical programs there are rules and regulations. She knew she could only go to an approved facility and she chose to do otherwise. When she told by medical authorities to where to take her child for care she chose to bitch with them for hours rather than call a cab.

I'm sincerly sorry her daughter is dead but Moore using this obviously flawed appeal to emotion to get my support and sympathy is a low blow. Even for him.

 

Where's your evidence for that claim?

Second, that's one item. The movie was loaded with a lot of important information that most Americans don't know about.

Now maybe you do, because your response "It sucked" and "My insurance company spent buttloads on me" indicates your employer might be one of the companies that has an interest in making sure less people see the movie.

Otherwise, you're not going to score any credibility in these parts saying unjust condemnations about Moore and his movies. Most of us have seen Sicko multiple times and we think it's a great movie. You're welcome to raise issues over it, but when you say something like "it sucked... I want my $3 back" that sounds like wingnut talking points.

By the way, I'm happy that your healthcare company is taking care of you. But just because you think you're treated fairly doesn't mean that everything is fine and that the issues Moore raises, that almost everyone else here would agree are problems, are not important. I'm thankful that "Sicko" was made and it's a shame more Americans have not seen it. I blame unsubstantiated mud-slinging like what you're doing as the reason.

 One reason why the Moore-bashing really pisses me off is that after seeing Sicko, I thought it was an important movie that a lot of people needed to see.  While you might disagree, I think you'd be in the minority.  And I ran into a lot of people who just wend, "Michael Moore?  He's a liar."  And when I asked for more info on why they thought that, they couldn't cite anything specific... it's just what they heard, because people like you go around trashing him and what he has to say.  It's not fair and it really makes me angry because our society needs people like him who will use their influence and resources to try to improve problems in government, society and the economy.   I'm not suggesting Moore has the right answer to any particular problem.  But he is doing a lot to bring issues to light that most people need to be aware of.  And dismissing him is completely mean-spirited and counterproductive.

 


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I'm not a big fan of Moore

I'm not a big fan of Moore I must say, I find his arguments weak but his sentiments in the right place.

I think when you look at healthcare you have to look at it from the standpoint fo social justice. Is it right that the poorest families cannot afford healthcare when the rich can get treated easily? Surely this cannot be justified. Is it right that private companies make money out our misfortunes?

I don't think the NHS is as well run as it could be and in the past couple of decades it has seen more privatisation of certain areas which have damaged it. But the NHS provides free healthcare of a generally high quality for all citizens in the UK. We might pay more taxes in the UK, but taxes aren't a bad thing. We're paying in so that our public services are well-funded, so there is a security net for those who fall into debt, so there is top quality state education and funding and access to higher education, so there is free healthcare, and spending on the development of deprived areas as well as the army and other such organisations (although we should probably scrap the monarchy because some tax goes to them as well).

Face it, the market doesn't look after people. It might be good for somethings but for the well-being of people its a big mistake. We need welfare, a state that looks after people, protects people's rights to a decent standard of living. I support the NHS on the principle that we shouldn't have to pay vast amounts of money we can't afford when we get ill. Ok, so I pay £15 for my six-monthly dental check-up and have to pay for minor prescription drugs (only a few pounds). I know that if I get seriously ill, the state will look after me. That's what its there for.


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shelleymtjoy

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Zombie,

I think I would be dead in Canada because only in some circumstances prescription meds are paid for. I have a PICC line and receive twice daily IV meds in addition to 10 oral medications.

Also, Canada's 100% coverage does not provide for experimental treatments of which I have had many. Canadian health care would be great in some instances - an example if which is preventative health care. Since it is free, more people are inclined to go at the first site of a problem. However, this also results in there being way more primary care doctors and not enough specialists. In my condition I can tell you with 100% honesty that I only see my primary care physician once a year and it's a waste of my time and his but my insurance requires it. I see specialists 2-3 times a week.

If you need more examples, I'll go on...

What kind of healthcare plan are you on that covers "100% experimental treatments?"

I guarantee you that's far different from 99.999999% of most American's health plans. Yet you have the nerve to wholly dismiss "Sicko?"

I see and hear a lot of ignorantm, unjustified stuff talking to people online. But nothing in my opinion is more ignorant and stupid than Michael Moore-bashing. It's more irrational than believing in Jesus and all that other crap. You really have to have highly selective memory to ignore the significance of the issues Moore raises. You really have to be listening to way too much Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity to think Moore is a pox on humanity. Seriously. There's dumb shit. There's profoundly dumb shit. And at the top of that heap are people who trash talk about Michael Moore, 99.9999% of them not knowing hardly anything about him or the issues. And big whoop if you can find a gaff here or there -- and that justifies ignoring the overwhelmingly well-documented information Moore has presented? He's a filmmaker trying to appeal to a wide audience, so he is going to pan for the camera and dramatize stuff, but most of us are smart enough to identify what is and isn't important. We're not nit picking because some Canadian said, "Moore's a liar, I do lock my door!

So you brag about how sick you are and how great health care you get. And you talk bad about "Sicko". Which insurance company do you work for? As for socialized medicine, there is socialized medicine in the United States. Much medical research is underwritten by the government. Medicare and Medicaid are socialized medicine. You're at the feed trough. You don't think the HMO's get all kinds of corporate welfare? We're all paying one way or another. Some of us think we shouldn't have to call some guy in a cubicle at an insurance company to find out who gets to treat our sickness.

I'm sorry, but this is an issue I'm passionate about. I resent people coming in making sweeping ignorant generalizations and I'm going to respond appropriately.

[EDIT: toned down some of my ad hominems... I was in a bad mood when I saw this and I shouldn't have been so caustic.. my bad]


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Jacob Cordingley

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

I'm not a big fan of Moore I must say, I find his arguments weak but his sentiments in the right place.

It's a shame that Moore the person tends to get in the way of his message. But you can certain factions for demonizing him as a way of avoiding addressing the issues he raises. And yea, everyone's a critic. I would have liked it if he did what Spike Lee did with the New Orleans documentary and keep himself mostly out of it to avoid unnecessary controversy, but it's Moore's gig and I respect that.

However, the issues raised are undeniable.

We are paying more than enough taxes that are being squandered, to FULLY-FUND UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL or a higher quality than anywhere else in the world. Period. But because various special interests don't want that to happen, people talk bad about "Sicko" to cover up this embarassing truth.

In England doctors get paid more for keeping their patients healthy. In America, health insurers make more money by refusing treatment. That's fucked up. Period. And you can't find a goddam decent mutual fund that isn't loaded with heathcare stock holdings, so ironically your IRA's value goes up just in time for you to die so you can't use the extra cash.

I have a friend of mine. She is miserable and working in a miserable job. But she can't leave the job because if she quits, she'll lose her healthcare, and she has a medical condition that would make it almost impossible for her to get healthcare under any other circumstance. So she stays at her job because they can't terminate her plan as it is. That's really pathetic, and that's not unusual. This is a really serious problem and I have no tolerance for people trying to create a smokescreen by talking ambiguous shit about Moore and "Sicko."

 


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that was kind of an odd

that was kind of an odd response from someone displaying such extreme views and indifference towards others. being a "very ill young woman" in no way entitles you to be treated for your illness but it entitles you to not be insulted by a stranger?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Pile wrote: Jacob

Pile wrote:
Jacob Cordingley wrote:

I'm not a big fan of Moore I must say, I find his arguments weak but his sentiments in the right place.

It's a shame that Moore the person tends to get in the way of his message. But you can certain factions for demonizing him as a way of avoiding addressing the issues he raises. And yea, everyone's a critic. I would have liked it if he did what Spike Lee did with the New Orleans documentary and keep himself mostly out of it to avoid unnecessary controversy, but it's Moore's gig and I respect that.

However, the issues raised are undeniable.

We are paying more than enough taxes that are being squandered, to FULLY-FUND UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL or a higher quality than anywhere else in the world. Period. But because various special interests don't want that to happen, people talk shit about "Sicko" to cover up this embarassing truth.

In England doctors get paid more for keeping their patients healthy.  In America, health insurers make more money by refusing treatment.  That's fucked up.  Period.  And you can't find a goddam decent mutual fund that isn't loaded with heathcare stock holdings, so ironically your IRA's value goes up just in time for you to die so you can't use the extra cash.

I have a friend of mine. She is miserable and working in a miserable job. But she can't leave the job because if she quits, she'll lose her healthcare, and she has a medical condition that would make it almost impossible for her to get healthcare under any other circumstance. So she stays at her job because they can't terminate her plan as it is. That's really pathetic, and that's not unusual. This is a really serious problem and I have no fucking tolerance for dipshits trying to create a smokescreen by talking ambiguous shit about Moore and "Sicko."

 

Wow what happened to my thread. Well if you're going to hijack my thread you have to listen to my 2 cents especially if you are going to slam Shelley. (Shelley, I think you must bear a resemblence to an ex of Piles or maybe his mother and he has abandonment issues.)

Pile, seriously there's dumb shit. There's profoundly dumb shit. Then there's you. Wow, no one believes Michael Moore because he lies compulsively. (Pile: But the issue is important!)

Yeah, a lot of issues are important and a lot of blowhards talk about them. Should we listen to every blowhard?

Obviously, there is a vast conspiracy involving aliens in Roswell and the insurance companies want you to get shitty healthcare and die so they can make a huge profit. Because, everyone knows that health insurance companies make so much money when poor people die.

Now, back to the real world. If your friend would have been smart enough to purchase her own health insurance she would not have her current problem. But most Americans prefer to rely on their employer to pay for it. SHE made the choice to tie herself to that employer by being a cheap ass and not purchasing her own insurance. Many Americans make the same mistake, and it is sad.

The problem with the American Health care system (which is the best in the world) is that the government is too damned involved. The health insurance and health care industries are two of the most heavily regulated industries in America. For example, Dr's have to treat people that do not have insurance or the ability to pay and are rarely able to collect. Who pays the bill? Everyone else. We could save tons of money if we let Dr's throw people who can't or won't pay out on the streets to die. Also, more people would take purchasing health insurance more seriously. If your house burned down, I would not be expected to pay to build you a new one because you were too stupid to purchase enough insurance to protect it. Why should I be expected to pay for your health problems? If you eat an extra large value artery clogging meal you can pay for your own surgery.

I am one of the few Americans who carries a personal high deductable insurance plan even though my employer offers awesome benefits. I actually declined a full coverage plan because I can see the possibility of wanting to switch employers at some point in the future. Why should my hard earned money be taken from me to pay for others healthcare? I am paying for my own, and others can but don't.

Finally, I have participated in government health care and it sucked. I was in the military and got pneumonia. The genius government Dr. prescribed the wrong medication. When I tried to see a different Dr. I was told that I could not see a different Dr. because they would not pay for it. Nor did I have the option of paying for it myself. Three weeks later I was not better and was removed from military service. When I went to the Mayo Clinic I was so severe I was hospitalized for two weeks and ended up with permenant scarring on my lungs. Thank you socialized medicine.

Finally, in my job I work with people who are on Medicaid. Find me one person on medicaid who is satisfied with the care they receive and believe medicaid is a good program. Americans love to bitch but rarely realize how good they have it. Pay for your own damn healthcare and I will pay for mine. Keep your shit covered hoofs off of my hard earned money.

P.S. Cuban healthcare really sucks, I've been there and saw the huge lines and unsanitary conditions. One more area where Moore got it wrong. But the cigars were good.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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There are a few topics that

There are a few topics that set me off. Ignorant Michael Moore bashing is one of them. I will make no apologies for that.

 EDIT: However, I forgot that this account was mod-flagged, so I do apologize for getting all uppity and acting un-moderator like.  That's my fault and I apologize because what I said in this thread was stricly my own personal opinions about an issue that I have passionate feelings about, and does not in any way reflect upon my role as a moderator or the position of RRS.

If the people I jumped on want to make an issue out of it, that's yet another example of what I'm talking about: ignoring the issues and attacking the messenger.  


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There are a few topics that

There are a few topics that irritate the hell out of me. People who actually treat Michael Moore as anything more than a slightly amusing political comedian are one of them.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Wow what happened to my thread. Well if you're going to hijack my thread you have to listen to my 2 cents especially if you are going to slam Shelley. (Shelley, I think you must bear a resemblence to an ex of Piles or maybe his mother and he has abandonment issues.)

No, she said some ignorant shit, and I called her out on it in my typically undiplomatic manner. That's the way it is. It really pisses me off when people make gross generalizations about Michael Moore. If you want to criticise something specific, fine, but if you start spewing the same baseless, unsubstantiated trash talk that the conservatives spew, I'm going to think you're a moron as well.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Pile, seriously there's dumb shit. There's profoundly dumb shit. Then there's you. Wow, no one believes Michael Moore because he lies compulsively. (Pile: But the issue is important!)

There you go. A classic unsubstantiated claim: "Moore lies compulsively"

If you're an atheist, then if you look you'll notice to even come close to backing up such an infantile claim, you'd have to employ gradiose exegesis, taking things out of context like theists do to the bible to prove a foregone conclusion.

When you make statements like that, you immediately dismiss Moore by suggesting he has nothing of value to say. That is bullshit. If you honestly believe that, then you are stupid. Michael Moore could make plenty of money without addressing the issues he does. He really is more of a champion for the common man... now if you disagree with some of his socialist-like leanings, and you don't think government has any responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of it's people, you can argue THAT ISSUE, but that's not what the anti-Moore idiots do.. they argue about Moore instead of addressing the issues. When you call him a compulsive liar, you're engaging in underhanded red herrings.

Let's establish something.

I don't give a damn if you're some newbie, vet, or a woman, if you make a dumbass sweeping generalization, I'm going to call you out on that. Life is too short to show that much consideration to the fragile sensibilities of profoundly misguided or ignorant people!  The botom line is that Moore-bashers really don't have that much evidence to justify their dismissal of him and his work.  Most of what you can cite are ridiculously trivial examples of his so-called "lying" like in F911 Moore bashers call him a liar because he said the book Bush was reading was "My Pet Goat" when it was really "The Pet Goat" - See Michael Moore is a liar!!!  That kind of stuff is extremely annoying.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yeah, a lot of issues are important and a lot of blowhards talk about them. Should we listen to every blowhard?

I'm beginning to see your point when I'm talking to you...

Beyond Saving wrote:

Obviously, there is a vast conspiracy involving aliens in Roswell and the insurance companies want you to get shitty healthcare and die so they can make a huge profit. Because, everyone knows that health insurance companies make so much money when poor people die.

Nice logical fallacy there.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Now, back to the real world.

Ahh, another nice one. I can take it, but if you're trying to convince me you have something substantive to say, you're not doing too well.

Beyond Saving wrote:
If your friend would have been smart enough to purchase her own health insurance she would not have her current problem. But most Americans prefer to rely on their employer to pay for it. SHE made the choice to tie herself to that employer by being a cheap ass and not purchasing her own insurance. Many Americans make the same mistake, and it is sad.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this because your responses are not particularly thoughtful or intelligent, so I have a feeling trying to reason with you may be pointless, but I'll go along for now...

She does pay for it. Everyone pays for it in one form or another. Healthcare is part of the compensation employees get. Here's the deal... she wasn't diagnosed with this disease until after she was employed. There was no reason for her to have an independent health plan. Most Americans get their health coverage from their employer. That's the way it works. You don't know what the hell you're talking about and you're making really unrealistic claims.

Beyond Saving wrote:

The problem with the American Health care system (which is the best in the world) is that the government is too damned involved.

1. How do you figure the "American Health care system is the best in the world"? Is that what Rush Limbaugh told you?

2. You subscribe to another fallacy that the "government is the problem". I hate to break it to you, but WE are the GOVERNMENT. We put these people in office. You morons talk about government as if they were some aliens that landed from another planet with the mission to fuck everything up. We all bear responsibility for what the government does. There is good government and there is bad government. But government itself, is not inherently bad. That's a fallacy that stupid people seem to fall for because corporations promote this notion in order to convince people that private interests would be more responsible. There is very little evidence in the real world that private interests behave any more ethically or responsibly than public interests.

In other words, again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Beyond Saving wrote:

The health insurance and health care industries are two of the most heavily regulated industries in America. For example, Dr's have to treat people that do not have insurance or the ability to pay and are rarely able to collect. Who pays the bill? Everyone else. We could save tons of money if we let Dr's throw people who can't or won't pay out on the streets to die. Also, more people would take purchasing health insurance more seriously. If your house burned down, I would not be expected to pay to build you a new one because you were too stupid to purchase enough insurance to protect it. Why should I be expected to pay for your health problems? If you eat an extra large value artery clogging meal you can pay for your own surgery.

Weak, selfish, ineffective argument. The situation is not that simple. We all pay one way or another no matter what.

Among your many erroneous mischaracterizations is the idiotic notion that "all regulation is the same". Just because an industry is "overly regulated" doesn't mean it's "properly regulated." See. Those of us who don't have our heads up our asses can recognize this distinction. You claim that since the insurance industry is "most regulated" that this is the end-all and be-all of as good as it could be as "regulated" by the government. That's a lie. That's totally stupid and naive. There is good regulation and bad regulation. Maybe you can pawn your bullshit mischaracterizations off on more weak-minded people, but it doesn't work here.

You seem to have that utopian wild-west-anarcho-capitlist libertarian hardon idea that everyone should be on their own. What you forget is that you're just as much a recipient of routine government handouts as everyone else. You just take them for granted. You eat at the government feed trough along with everyone else. You enjoy dozens of socialized programs every day. You don't complain when its in your interest, but you get all uppity if any of your tax dollars goes on some poor person or maybe someone with a different ethnicity. 

Beyond Saving wrote:

I am one of the few Americans who carries a personal high deductable insurance plan even though my employer offers awesome benefits. I actually declined a full coverage plan because I can see the possibility of wanting to switch employers at some point in the future. Why should my hard earned money be taken from me to pay for others healthcare? I am paying for my own, and others can but don't.

I pay for my own health insurance as well. It's my choice.

But I'm also not so selfish as to not recognize that universal healthcare IF PROPERLY MANAGED would be a better alternative for all.

I'm sure you enjoy socialized roads, socialized utility service, socialized police and fire protection. Some public programs actually do work. The idea that all government is bad, is not true. There are many countries that have much more effective social programs than America's private counterparts.

You demonizing government as some 100% corrupt monster is inappropriate. If you don't like government change it, but at least with government there is accountability. There is no such accountability in a private corporation.

And note if you like the idea of having freedom of healthcare, and you have money, you can always do that. Socialized medicine doesn't take that away from you. So just because you have a nifty health plan doesn't mean everything is peachy in the world of HMOs. It isn't. And what's even more ironic is, you'll likely eat your words the first time you cost your HMO a big lump of change. Then you'll roll the dice and see if they're going to treat you like a human being or not.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Finally, I have participated in government health care and it sucked. I was in the military and got pneumonia. The genius government Dr. prescribed the wrong medication. When I tried to see a different Dr. I was told that I could not see a different Dr. because they would not pay for it. Nor did I have the option of paying for it myself. Three weeks later I was not better and was removed from military service. When I went to the Mayo Clinic I was so severe I was hospitalized for two weeks and ended up with permenant scarring on my lungs. Thank you socialized medicine.

You know, if I was going to use YOUR RATIONALE to address this agument I'd say, It's your fucking fault you got pneumonia! If you hadn't done something stupid like run around in the rain or not protect yourself properly, you wouldn't have gotten pneumonia! Why should my taxpayer dollars subsidize ANY healthcare for you when it's your own fault you got sick?? But fortunately for you, I'm not that self-absorbed.

Your problem wasn't "socialized medicine". It was crappy ass doctors and beauracracies. Don't blame the government. People with private healthcare HAVE THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM!!

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
There are a few topics that irritate the hell out of me. People who actually treat Michael Moore as anything more than a slightly amusing political comedian are one of them.

Michael Moore has repeatedly raised very important issues of interest to everyone in this country. From corporate malfeasance to the illegality of the invasion of Iraq to glorification of violence to problems with the healthcare system. This argument is not about Michael Moore. When you make it about Michael Moore, you tell us you're a wingnut who has drank too much of the right-wing kool-aid and are incapable of addressing the issues individually.

I am not a Michael Moore sycophant. I don't give a rat's ass about him as a person, beyond the fact that in each and every case of every movie he's made, I acknowledge he's raised public awareness of important social and political issues. And anyone who attacks him personally is derailing social progress in my opinion, and are part of the problem and I'll call them out. IT'S ABOUT THE ISSUES!


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Pile wrote: There you go.

Pile wrote:

There you go. A classic unsubstantiated claim: "Moore lies compulsively"

Michael Moore lies and takes things out of context routinely. I am not inclined to go through the effort to go clip by clip with you and point out what is incorrect, taken out of context or flat out lies. He is even responsible for a new type of film called a "Docudrama." Really, if you want to choose someone to champion socialized medicine there are several people who can make the argument with a lot more credibility than Moore. Enough of him, let's talk about the issue because I don't care about Moore. (And his recent movies are really bad from an entertainment standpoint.)

Quote:
When you make statements like that, you immediately dismiss Moore by suggesting he has nothing of value to say. That is bullshit. If you honestly believe that, then you are stupid. Michael Moore could make plenty of money without addressing the issues he does. He really is more of a champion for the common man... now if you disagree with some of his socialist-like leanings, and you don't think government has any responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of it's people, you can argue THAT ISSUE, but that's not what the anti-Moore idiots do.. they argue about Moore instead of addressing the issues. When you call him a compulsive liar, you're engaging in underhanded red herrings.

I admitted that he is talking about an important issue. I am only arguing that he is not a reliable source. Choose a communist with a little more authority on the subject, there are enough of them.

Quote:
Beyond Saving wrote:

Obviously, there is a vast conspiracy involving aliens in Roswell and the insurance companies want you to get shitty healthcare and die so they can make a huge profit. Because, everyone knows that health insurance companies make so much money when poor people die.

Nice logical fallacy there.

Thank you.

Quote:

She does pay for it. Everyone pays for it in one form or another. Healthcare is part of the compensation employees get.

After a fashion, although some pay a lot more than others.

Quote:
Here's the deal... she wasn't diagnosed with this disease until after she was employed. There was no reason for her to have an independent health plan.

There is a great reason to have an independent health plan. Precisely to avoid the situation she is in. Everyone on this site that currently has healthcare through their employer should consider getting rid of it and purchasing their own independent health plan. If you lose your job and happen to be in bad health you will be uninsurable without another group health plan. I will never be in that situation because I planned for it. Everyone else should too.

 

Quote:
Most Americans get their health coverage from their employer. That's the way it works. You don't know what the hell you're talking about and you're making really unrealistic claims.

Yes they do, and it is sad. Americans really need to stop relying on their employer for their health care coverage. But that is not "THE way it works." It is simply the way most people choose to do it. You do have a choice. If you go to your employer while negotiating your wages and tell him/her that you are willing to give up your healthcare benefit in exchange for a higher wage, most employers will be willing to deal with you. I know what I am talking about because I have done it. A high-deductable plan with a HSA is significantly cheaper and less complicated than the plans provided by most employers. Chances are the raise you are able to coax out of your employer will be more than the amount you will have to pay for your health insurance and you will still be saving them a ton of money. Now if you work for a Union you are screwed because you cannot negotiate your own deal. That is the problem with Unions.

Quote:
1. How do you figure the "American Health care system is the best in the world"?

Mostly my personal experiences. Now I haven't been to every country in the world so yeah it is a rather broad assertion but it is certainly among the best. We have some of the best trained doctors, the best technology and everyone is able to choose which Dr. they want to go to.

Quote:
2. You subscribe to another fallacy that the "government is the problem". I hate to break it to you, but WE are the GOVERNMENT.
We being the people as a mass which is often wrong.

Quote:
We put these people in office. You morons talk about government as if they were some aliens that landed from another planet with the mission to fuck everything up.

The government is quite good at fucking up almost anything. Having worked in politics I can safely say that 90% of the politicians voting on any particular issue know nothing about what they are voting for. Generally they vote the way they do because of party pressure or special interests or because they don't want to be seen voting against the bill because of the title.

Quote:
We all bear responsibility for what the government does. There is good government and there is bad government. But government itself, is not inherently bad.

I never said it was inherrently bad. If the government leaves me alone I would be perfectly happy. Unfortunately, too many Americans think the government is there to solve their problems and use their power as a majority to take from the minority to fund their programs.

Quote:
There is very little evidence in the real world that private interests behave any more ethically or responsibly than public interests.

The governments role is to ensure that the private interests are acting ethically. The government being involved itself is like making a player in a sports game the referee. I believe it is the governments job to be the referee and nothing more.

Private interests will always be motivated by profit. It works with every product it is tried on. For example, food is an absolute requirement to live but we manage just fine without universal government owned grocery stores. There are really nice expensive grocery stores like Whole Foods where I shop and there are shitty stores like Save A Lot that have crappy food but are cheap. I believe health care should be the same way. 

Everyone cannot have the best healthcare. There is only room in the Mayo Clinic for so many people and the best Dr's can only see a certain number of people. I would much rather that those who have worked their ass off to make good money get great healthcare and the poor get worse (but still better than Cuba) healthcare instead of everyone getting mediocre or even poor healthcare. 

Quote:
In other words, again, you don't know what you're talking about.

You really are an asshole. Everyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about or are the mouthpieces of conservatives. (I'll admit I am extremely conservative fiscally.) Stop with the adhom attacks and focus on the debate please.

Quote:
Weak, selfish, ineffective argument. The situation is not that simple. We all pay one way or another no matter what.

The homeless, illegal aliens and completely destitute do not pay at all.

Quote:
Among your many erroneous mischaracterizations is the idiotic notion that "all regulation is the same". Just because an industry is "overly regulated" doesn't mean it's "properly regulated." See. Those of us who don't have our heads up our asses can recognize this distinction.

Our particular government is particularly good at coming up with bad regulations. Before we consider going to universal healthcare maybe we should try to fix the government health programs we have first. If you can get Tri-care, Medicare and Medicaid to work through proper regulations maybe I would be slightly more willing to listen to you. Our government has failed miserably in all of these programs and I would not expect it to do any better with universal healthcare. If you think those programs are great go talk to people who have to use them and see what they think.

Quote:
You seem to have that utopian wild-west-anarcho-capitlist libertarian hardon idea that everyone should be on their own.

Ah what a dream. Too bad it will never happen.

Quote:
What you forget is that you're just as much a recipient of routine government handouts as everyone else.

Not by choice.

Quote:
You just take them for granted. You eat at the government feed trough along with everyone else. You enjoy dozens of socialized programs every day. You don't complain when its in your interest,

Actually it pisses me off every day.

Quote:
but you get all uppity if any of your tax dollars goes on some poor person or maybe someone with a different ethnicity.

Actually, I don't mind in some cases. I am willing to tolerate the government helping out some people who are in desparate need. I get uppity when my tax money goes to helping people who own a larger tv than I do. They choose to by a big plasma screen and now I have to pay for their healthcare because they made bad financial choices. That pisses me off. We are not talking about a healthcare program that only helps the poor. We are talking about a program that covers EVERYONE. And I resent you implying I am a racist. I hate white trash too.

Quote:
You're a hypocrite.

Another baseless ad hom. What exactly did I say that is hypocitical. You don't know me well enough to make that claim.

Quote:

I pay for my own health insurance as well. It's my choice.

Good for you. I'll give you a gold star.

Quote:

But I'm also not so selfish as to not recognize that universal healthcare IF PROPERLY MANAGED would be a better alternative for all.

See above section about how all the current healthcare programs are NOT properly managed. When the government gets one of the three right come back to see me and we can debate universal healthcare then.

Quote:

I'm sure you enjoy socialized roads, socialized utility service, socialized police and fire protection.

I don't really have a choice about the roads but building and maintaining a road is very different from universal healthcare. I am moving to an area that has private police and fire protection. The utility service in America is not socialized in most places. It is private industry that is heavily regulated.

Quote:
Some public programs actually do work. The idea that all government is bad, is not true.
I didn't say that. Although "work" and being the best option are two different things.

Quote:
There are many countries that have much more effective social programs than America's private counterparts.

Such as....

Quote:
You demonizing government as some 100% corrupt monster is inappropriate.

Did I do that? I only stated that I believe government is not the solution to the healthcare problem in America.

Quote:
 If you don't like government change it, but at least with government there is accountability.
I'm working on it. It is a very difficult task.

Quote:
There is no such accountability in a private corporation.

Yes there is. It is far more simple to take your money to a competitor than the challenge the government. If you are not satisfied with a Dr. in a private system you can refuse to pay him and go to a different Dr. They will fight you for the money until you threaten a malpractice lawsuit. In a government system you have no choice. 

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And note if you like the idea of having freedom of healthcare, and you have money, you can always do that. Socialized medicine doesn't take that away from you.

Yeah, by taking my money and flying to a country that does not have socialized medicine. My health insurance is great but I don't think they would cover that.

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So just because you have a nifty health plan doesn't mean everything is peachy in the world of HMOs. It isn't. And what's even more ironic is, you'll likely eat your words the first time you cost your HMO a big lump of change. Then you'll roll the dice and see if they're going to treat you like a human being or not.

The plan I have covers 100% past my deductible. I read the contract before I got the plan and the health insurance company cannot refuse to pay my bill. They can negotiate with the provider but the fees are not passed on to me. I've had a few large bills and they paid them without a fight. Many HMO and PPO plans provided by employers have a lot of caveats in the contract because they start partial coverage from dollar one. It is wise to read your contract in detail before you sign. When it comes to any insurance I strongly believe that simple and straight forward plans are much better than complicated plans. However, employers offer complicated plans because people like their annual physicals to be free or really cheap. 

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You know, if I was going to use YOUR RATIONALE to address this agument I'd say, It's your fucking fault you got pneumonia! If you hadn't done something stupid like run around in the rain or not protect yourself properly, you wouldn't have gotten pneumonia! Why should my taxpayer dollars subsidize ANY healthcare for you when it's your own fault you got sick?? But fortunately for you, I'm not that self-absorbed.

Actually it was my own fucking fault. I pushed myself too hard because I was big tough Marine. If I had taken it easy it probably would have remained a chest cold. Your tax payer dollars should not have to subsidized it. As a matter of fact, once I got out my private health plan covered the majority of the expense. The military would be better off if it provided the soldiers with money to go purchase private plans so they could go to private Dr's. Dr's in the military tend to be either new inexperienced Dr's or bad Dr's because they work for relatively low wages. (There are exceptions but for the most part, really good Dr's are not going to work for less than six figures.)

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Your problem wasn't "socialized medicine". It was crappy ass doctors and beauracracies.
Yes that was precisely my problem. And I did not have to power to go elsewhere because I was in a government system.

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Don't blame the government.

They were government Dr's and government bureaucrats who else should I blame?

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 People with private healthcare HAVE THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM!!

Then they should exercise the power given to them by the private system and go to a different Dr. If you are not satisfied with your care complain just like you would if a restaurant provided you with bad food or service. I knew I was getting bad care but did not have the power to go elsewhere even though I had the resources. If your private provider does not listen to your complaints go elsewhere. If you picked an insurance plan that limits which Dr's you can go to you picked a bad plan and should consider a different one.

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If you don't like me calling you a moron, don't say stupid shit ok? You didn't make one decent point.

Actually, I find your beligerence amusing.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Pile wrote:

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You seem to have that utopian wild-west-anarcho-capitlist libertarian hardon idea that everyone should be on their own.

Ah what a dream. Too bad it will never happen.

I probably shouldn't be doing so much ad hominems, I admit, but wingnut/fundy-libertarian crapreally pisses me off. I find much of this rationale to be as ignorant as theistic beliefs. To me, your stance indicates how self-centered you are -- and by your own admission you are and you take great pride in the whole notion that you don't want a single penny of yours going to anything that doesn't come right back to you, healthcare included. Just because you can afford independent healthcare doesn't mean everyone else can, and you seem to blame that on individuals and not the system. I and many other people might disagree with you and it's really frustrating the mindset some people have that makes them think that there is no such thing as being "stuck in a rut" and needing help from someone else in one form or another.

If you live by yourself on some island, you can get away with that kind of thinking. But you and this other Moore-bashing chick don't. You live in part of a society where everyone works together and shares resources and has created a government to help regulate things.

And the girl, who was quite proud of how she disproportionally sucked resources from everyone else for her own benefit had the audacity to protect her own interests by defending the obviously messed-up status quo. And we all know that if she's telling the truth about her healthcare coverage, she's a rare exception to the rule. I find that kind of position deplorable.

And every day, you take advantage of these services, all the while you rant and rave about how everyone should be "on their own" and government should "leave you alone".

I find the whole notion profoundly hypocritical, and it's really hard to hold my tongue when I see such short-sighted, ignorant tripe.

The only thing more tired and naive than "Godidit" arguments is your claim that corporations could act more ethically and repsonsibly than government, and that there's more "accountability" in the private sector. History -- especially American history, has clearly shown that to not be true. The idea that "market forces" will prevail is not based on any example here in modern reality. Big corporations pretty much do what they want, with or without government regulation or assistance, and less government regulation certainly wouldn't prompt them to suddenly act more responsible. That's just ridiculous to imagine... yet that's what you're saying. I did a whole podcast on this very issue with someone a lot more knowledgable tha you and he couldn't give a single reasonable example of how the anarcho capitalist liberatarian model has worked in a decent-sized society in the sum total of human history.

I probably could have composed my words better, but the gist of what I have said I think is legitimate. It really, really annoys me when people make sweeping generalizations of that nature. I'm not saying I don't do it as well, and when I get called on it, I deserve it, but the Moore-bashing is for the most part, unfounded. That's part of the right wing demonization of icons that don't represent the best interests of their corporate overlords. It's one thing to have a stance on an issue, but I really have dislike for people who want to "kill the messenger".

Anyway, I shouldn't have spewed so much caustic argument from this account. I didn't realize I had a mod badge up there and I was in no way representing an official position. That was my bad.

On the healthcare/Michael Moore issue, here's a good example of why Michael Moore does not deserve the mean-spirited crap people throw at him... this video clearly shows he has saved at least one person's life trying to help people with healthcare.. this is long before Sicko.. this was in the 1990s...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkpxV7mnqY

 

 


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Pile wrote:  To me, your

Pile wrote:

 To me, your stance indicates how self-centered you are --

I never claimed I wasn't. All people are self-centered, some of us admit it.

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and by your own admission you are and you take great pride in the whole notion that you don't want a single penny of yours going to anything that doesn't come right back to you, healthcare included.

I never said that. I donate plenty of money to charities that I choose. I believe it is good for people to donate to charity. What I do not agree with is that the majority has the moral right to forcibly take money through taxes and redistribute it. I will donate money where I see fit, I don't need the government to do it for me.

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Just because you can afford independent healthcare doesn't mean everyone else can, and you seem to blame that on individuals and not the system.

Many, not all, individuals who do not currently have health insurance can afford it but choose not to. I have no problem helping out the select few who are in the very bottom of society. If you have a TV, a phone or a stereo with CDs you can afford your own health insurance. We are not talking about Medicaid a program for the destitute. We are talking about universal healthcare a huge difference.

 

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I and many other people might disagree with you and it's really frustrating the mindset some people have that makes them think that there is no such thing as being "stuck in a rut" and needing help from someone else in one form or another.

Short of some sort of disability I believe most people are at least partially responsible for their own position in life. When I was broke I didn't blame anyone other than myself. Although as I pointed out before, we are not talking about the poor who already have healthcare programs provided by the government. (Which suck because they are provided by the government.)

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If you live by yourself on some island, you can get away with that kind of thinking. But you and this other Moore-bashing chick don't. You live in part of a society where everyone works together and shares resources and has created a government to help regulate things.

I actually get away with it quite well thank you. Other than irritation at others always wanting more from me I am a very happy person.

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And the girl, who was quite proud of how she disproportionally sucked resources from everyone else for her own benefit had the audacity to protect her own interests by defending the obviously messed-up status quo.

I didn't really interpret her as proud. She was merely pointing out her personal experiences that led her to the conclusion the Moore is wrong. Obviously, you have had different personal experiences.

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 And we all know that if she's telling the truth about her healthcare coverage, she's a rare exception to the rule. 

I don't know that. In my job I meet with people everyday and often discuss their healthcare coverage. Many of them have had similar experiences as Shelley. Health insurance is like any other product, some companies are great and some are crappy. 

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I find the whole notion profoundly hypocritical, and it's really hard to hold my tongue when I see such short-sighted, ignorant tripe.

Your tongue is sticking out.

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The only thing more tired and naive than "Godidit" arguments is your claim that corporations could act more ethically and repsonsibly than government, and that there's more "accountability" in the private sector.

I never said they were more ethical. Only more efficient. The government can try to keep people and corporations ethical. The private sector is very accountable to the consumer. All business is about attracting the consumer and maintaining them. As long as there are several corporations competing the consumer can go elsewhere if they are not satisfied with the service they receive. People are all too often not willing to do this when it comes to medicine like they do for other products. The government can assist by ensuring a monopoly does not occur and keep competition going.

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 History -- especially American history, has clearly shown that to not be true. The idea that "market forces" will prevail is not based on any example here in modern reality.

Only 200+ years of history... heck even communist China is starting to realize how well capitalism works. What exactly do you mean market forces don't prevail? Even if you argue that market forces prevailing is not a good thing arguing that they don't prevail in a capitilist system is ignorant. I think I know what you mean but this statement is convoluted.

 

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Big corporations pretty much do what they want, with or without government regulation or assistance, and less government regulation certainly wouldn't prompt them to suddenly act more responsible.

Wow, I work for a big corporation, I need to tell my CEO about this right away. We could quadruple profits if we just did what we want and I would of course take my cut for the idea. I'm going to retire tomorrow a billionaire.

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I did a whole podcast on this very issue with someone a lot more knowledgable tha you and he couldn't give a single reasonable example of how the anarcho capitalist liberatarian model has worked in a decent-sized society in the sum total of human history
Can't watch it now. But I'll get back to you on this.

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I probably could have composed my words better, but the gist of what I have said I think is legitimate. It really, really annoys me when people make sweeping generalizations of that nature. I'm not saying I don't do it as well, and when I get called on it, I deserve it, but the Moore-bashing is for the most part, unfounded.

Someday I will find the energy to actually watch the movie and write down all of the lies he perpetuates. Seriously, if you take everything Moore says as gospel you are no different than someone who takes what Rush Limbaugh says as gospel.

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That's part of the right wing demonization of icons that don't represent the best interests of their corporate overlords.

LOL, that is funny, talk about making broad generalizations. I want to be an overlord, but right now I only have a Letter of Marque. But never fear, in about ten years I will rise to the top of the vast right wing conspiracy as an overlord and then will run to be Grand Master of the Illuminati and rule the world!

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 It's one thing to have a stance on an issue, but I really have dislike for people who want to "kill the messenger".

I didn't really kill the messenger that bad. I believe all three of my posts have quite clearly addressed the issue with a few sidenotes here and there. ( I can't help myself sometimes)

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Anyway, I shouldn't have spewed so much caustic argument from this account. I didn't realize I had a mod badge up there and I was in no way representing an official position. That was my bad.

We agree on that. 

Ok, so you make ten times as many broad assumptions and generalizations but have not addressed most of my arguments yet, except to say I am a right wing nut and bad for attacking Moore and making broad assumptions about what I believe.

You can start by explaining exactly why you expect universal healthcare to be ran better than Medicaid or medicare.(Or perhaps you believe they are ran well?)

Why don't you stop attacking my beliefs in general and talk a little about how exactly you think universal healthcare would work and why it would be better than what we currently have.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I listened to a short clip

I listened to a short clip of the interview and you are somehow completely convoluting my argument. I never said we should get rid of ALL regulation or the entire government. I am only arguing against universal healthcare. Again back to my sports analogy, I see the government's proper role as a ref not a player. The person you interviewed seems to be arguing that there should be no ref. Very different views. Please stop lumping my views with other peoples. I think I have made my argument quite clear. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: Ok,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Ok, so you make ten times as many broad assumptions and generalizations but have not addressed most of my arguments yet, except to say I am a right wing nut and bad for attacking Moore and making broad assumptions about what I believe.

You can start by explaining exactly why you expect universal healthcare to be ran better than Medicaid or medicare.(Or perhaps you believe they are ran well?)

Most of what you say is not worthy of responding to. You're simply being defensive and not really bringing more to the conversation. I see no point superficially arguing over the issue.

For example, of Michael Moore's movie Sicko, you write:

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Someday I will find the energy to actually watch the movie and write down all of the lies he perpetuates.

That kind of biased retort doesn't deserve any response. You show how completely un-objective you are. You say the movie is full of lies and yet you haven't found the energy to watch it. Nor can you be bothered to actually back up your claims with any specifics. We're just supposed to take your anonymous rhetoric as some sort of factual claim?

You know Michael Moore has a whole web site dedicated towards backing up every single claim in that movie? He vehemently responds to any and all criticisms of falsehoods. For example: Sicko truth squad sets CNN straight.

Here is a point by point outline of the facts presented in Sicko with references.

Now you know what people say about statistics and stuff... there's always some angle someone can use to shoehorn in a contention that some claim may be in dispute, but what isn't in dispute is that it was obvious the intention of the producers was to showcase the truth. There was no "conspiracy of lies".

The same deal goes for other Moore movies, like Bowling For Columbine. People lambasted Moore as being a liar because he had a segment showing people didn't lock their doors in Canada. So Moore's critics find a person who locks their door in Canada, BAM, "Moore's a liar". That's bullshit. He was making a general point. Just because you can find some exception doesn't mean the general point he was making is invalid. The same thing goes about the bank giving away a gun.. well I'm a hunter.. I think that segment was a bit overly dramatized, but I'm smart enough to see he did it for the humor and wasn't trying to bash the bank as much as he was making a statement how how goofy it might seem, a bank giving away guns, and along those lines, it worked. I can appreciate the nuances there and I'm not nit-picking not-terribly-relevant aspects of the bigger picture.

This is especially true when Shelly bragged about what great healthcare she is getting. That doesn't mean anything except that she got treated well. That doesn't mean everyone else has her magically-amazing healthcare plan that covers "100% experimental procedures". Most people don't, and it's way out of line to say Sicko sucks when you've got magically-special healthcare.

The reality of the situation is that many of the people here who are bashing Moore and the notion of socialized medicine have a vested interest in doing so. They work for companies that want the status quo. There is a serious conflict of interest that precludes their opinion from having much weight, even though their arguments are weak at best anyway. Hey, I have some relatives that work for Shell Oil. They are totally in favor of the war, but then again, their company is making shitloads more money because of the elevated oil prices and the war. So they have a vested interest in adopting a very boneheaded stance on an important social issue. It's selfish and bad for society, but it's good for their career and personal comfort.

Yea, everybody is selfish to some degree. Some more than others. Generally, If people work for a company that is party to unnecessary human suffering for the sake of material profit, IMO they're in a really sad, pathetic, inhumane place, and I feel sorry for them. I know they have to rationalize that they're not "evil", but I think deep down they know, so maybe bashing Moore or "liberals" or "hippies", etc. helps distract them from the fact that they're part of a machine that does a lot of harm to society, so be it. And if you're a marine and you're in Iraq and you're dodging IEDs and shooting up innocent peoples' homes, I feel sorry about that. You're not a "hero" just because you signed up in the military. Like someone who works for some insurance company, you're part of a machine run by other people, a machine that in all likelihood, sometimes, many times, is not operating in the interests of all, but for the interests of the few, at the expense of something much larger, and usually surrounded by a cloud of lies and misinformation, much of which gets spewed by the cogs in the machine as part of their way to reason there is some noble purpose to what they're doing when it's entirely possible there isn't. I resent that we can't have a dialogue on these individual issues because people say crap like "Moore is a liar" or "You hate the troops".

I think many people have lost sight of the bigger picture.

You can watch a movie like Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11 and you fixate on calling Moore a liar because he said the book Bush was reading was "My Pet Goat" instead of "The Pet Goat". Meanwhile you gloss over the FACT that Bush allowed a plane load of Bin Laden's to fly out of the country while the rest of America was grounded. WTF? Seriously.... WTF? How can the right-winger's brains just gloss over that? It confounds me. How come we can't get a reporter in the White House to hammer Bush with a question like what the hell was he doing? Especially now that he's claiming he needs to torture anyone who might know anything about terrorists, and yet he let's all of Bin Laden's family fly out of the country right after the attack? The fact that the conservatives want to completely ignore this is a good indication that their brains are not functioning properly.

I don't profit more or less one way or another on these issues. I have no personal interest in defending Moore's work beyond the advantage some of his ideas may benefit society as a whole. And that's the difference between me and some of you. You don't care about the big picture. The problem is you need to understand that this web site exists because many of us are paying attention to the big picture. If simply not believing in god was a personal thing to us, there wouldn't be a RRS. We recognize that we're citizens of society and we have ideas on ways in which we think society can be improved, and we want to continue to have an open dialogue on it. I'd react the same way if someone said, "RRS is a bunch of liars" and used that as an excuse to not pay attention to anything they say. It's wrong and it's stupid. But that's my opinion and your mileage may vary.

Quote:

You can start by explaining exactly why you expect universal healthcare to be ran better than Medicaid or medicare.(Or perhaps you believe they are ran well?)

Honestly, I don't see the point in it. It's obvious you've made up your mind already and merely want to argue.

I think there are good things and bad things with virtually all programs. Generally speaking, as a matter of principal, I think it's immoral for healthcare to be a vehicle for profit. I think it's in everyone's interest to make sure everyone in society is as healthy as possible. I think any entity that profits from human suffering is a bad thing.

I don't see you complaining that fire service is socialized. How would you like it if that was privitized? Maybe you could save a few cents because your neighbor didn't pay for the "gold fire protection package" and the department only lets their garage burn to the ground. But hey, maybe it'll cost you 0.12 less a month. Brilliant!

There are plenty of ways to make money, and there are plenty of ways of motivating people to help others and the two are not either completely synonymous or mutually exclusive.

There are socialized healthcare programs that work, and that people all around the world are happy with. Just because you can find a few Canadians who complain, does not mean the Canadian system is bad or worse than Americas. The easy way of testing this is to poll virtually ANY society that has socialized medicine and ask the entire population whether they'd prefer to move over to a private system like what America has. I'd bet all the money I have very few people would want to roll back from socialized medicine. This is the reality that Sicko critics intentionally ignore. They can find 1 or 2 examples that fly in the face of Moore's claims, but as a whole, there are expentially more examples of people taking advantage of the system and appreciating it.

If privatized healthcare was so great, wouldn't we see socialized systems going in this direction? We don't. Neither Canada nor the UK, nor France, despite peoples issues over taxation and government buracracy, would likely ever want to give up their socialized medical system.

So I don't see why it's even worth arguing over this. You can disagree with me, but you can't really cite anything substantive that gives your contrarian viewpoint much credibility. I think it's sad that if I get sick, I have to worry about which ambulance to call and which hospital to go to and whether or not my healthcare company covers where I end up? That's really sad. And the reality is there aren't any major health plans that don't have issues like this. That's a big problem with privatized healthcare.  Hell, you have this problem in all sorts of privatized situations... with privatized telephone service it costs different amounts of money to talk to people with different carriers sometimes.  There's even more beauracracy with private carriers and all their fine print.  I don't see what point you're actually making.

 

 

 


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Pile wrote: Most of what

Pile wrote:

Most of what you say is not worthy of responding to. You're simply being defensive and not really bringing more to the conversation. I see no point superficially arguing over the issue.

You are the one who seems wholly fixated on Moore.

Quote:
That kind of biased retort doesn't deserve any response. You show how completely un-objective you are. You say the movie is full of lies and yet you haven't found the energy to watch it. Nor can you be bothered to actually back up your claims with any specifics. We're just supposed to take your anonymous rhetoric as some sort of factual claim?

More, Moore most of my arguments have had nothing to do with Moore or his movies. I have a couple sentences referencing him and the rest are discussing the topic of universal health care.

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You know Michael Moore has a whole web site dedicated towards backing up every single claim in that movie? He vehemently responds to any and all criticisms of falsehoods. For example: Sicko truth squad sets CNN straight.

Here is a point by point outline of the facts presented in Sicko with references.

That is nice. I will address that in a later post.

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Now you know what people say about statistics and stuff... there's always some angle someone can use to shoehorn in a contention that some claim may be in dispute, but what isn't in dispute is that it was obvious the intention of the producers was to showcase the truth. There was no "conspiracy of lies".

No the intention of the producers was to produce another Moore film that would make a boatload of cash. I wouldn't call it a conspiracy so much as laziness and exageration to make the movie "better".

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This is especially true when Shelly bragged about what great healthcare she is getting. That doesn't mean anything except that she got treated well. That doesn't mean everyone else has her magically-amazing healthcare plan that covers "100% experimental procedures". Most people don't, and it's way out of line to say Sicko sucks when you've got magically-special healthcare.

It is not magic, it is called a good private health insurance plan. I can sell one to you if you want.

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The reality of the situation is that many of the people here who are bashing Moore and the notion of socialized medicine have a vested interest in doing so. They work for companies that want the status quo. There is a serious conflict of interest that precludes their opinion from having much weight, even though their arguments are weak at best anyway.

Yeah because people who work in the healthcare system do not care about other peoples health and do not know anything about the subject.

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 Hey, I have some relatives that work for Shell Oil. They are totally in favor of the war, but then again, their company is making shitloads more money because of the elevated oil prices and the war. So they have a vested interest in adopting a very boneheaded stance on an important social issue. It's selfish and bad for society, but it's good for their career and personal comfort.

Those evil oil companies bringing us the power to keep our country running, and at rates cheaper than bottled water, greedy bastards.

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Yea, everybody is selfish to some degree. Some more than others. Generally, If people work for a company that is party to unnecessary human suffering for the sake of material profit, IMO they're in a really sad, pathetic, inhumane place, and I feel sorry for them.

Does that include insurance?

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And if you're a marine and you're in Iraq and you're dodging IEDs and shooting up innocent peoples' homes, I feel sorry about that. You're not a "hero" just because you signed up in the military.

They are more of a hero than you will ever be. P.S. American soldiers do not shoot up innocent peoples homes. Many great men have died in an effort to spare an innocent in battle. Ok, now I'm pissed.

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Like someone who works for some insurance company, you're part of a machine run by other people, a machine that in all likelihood, sometimes, many times, is not operating in the interests of all, but for the interests of the few, at the expense of something much larger, and usually surrounded by a cloud of lies and misinformation, much of which gets spewed by the cogs in the machine as part of their way to reason there is some noble purpose to what they're doing when it's entirely possible there isn't.

Is this how you always argue? By belittling everyone who disagrees with you as shallow, ignorant and evil?

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 I resent that we can't have a dialogue on these individual issues because people say crap like "Moore is a liar" or "You hate the troops".

You are the one who keeps bringing up Moore. I offered several opinions and asked several questions that have not been answered.

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I think many people have lost sight of the bigger picture.

Like you? Is Moore in the way?

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You can watch a movie like Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11 and you fixate on calling Moore a liar because...blah blah blah

That isn't even the subject we were talking about. You sure get distracted easily. Need some ridalin?

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I don't profit more or less one way or another on these issues. I have no personal interest in defending Moore's work beyond the advantage some of his ideas may benefit society as a whole. And that's the difference between me and some of you.
 

Yes the great savior. You are completely unbiased.

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You don't care about the big picture. The problem is you need to understand that this web site exists because many of us are paying attention to the big picture.

Yet another attack on a subject I didn't even address.

 

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If simply not believing in god was a personal thing to us, there wouldn't be a RRS. We recognize that we're citizens of society and we have ideas on ways in which we think society can be improved, and we want to continue to have an open dialogue on it. I'd react the same way if someone said, "RRS is a bunch of liars" and used that as an excuse to not pay attention to anything they say. It's wrong and it's stupid. But that's my opinion and your mileage may vary.

 Ok, let us forget Moore then and debate the idea of universal healthcare. I haven't seen the movie anyway.

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Honestly, I don't see the point in it. It's obvious you've made up your mind already and merely want to argue.

Well maybe the point would be if you could actually offer some comprehensive arguments you could persuade people who read this over to your side. Or perhaps as an intellectual exercise to consider the topic more in depth. I agree, you are not the type of person that has the ability to change my mind. It takes someone very rational with a well organized argument.

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I think there are good things and bad things with virtually all programs.

Whew, finally we start to address the topic thought we would never get here. I agree.

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 Generally speaking, as a matter of principal, I think it's immoral for healthcare to be a vehicle for profit.

Would you go to med school for the better part of a decade to make no profit? Personally, I want the person who is doing my surgery to be extremely comfortable and happy living in a giant house and sleeping in a comfortable bed. Furthermore, I want his biggest fear to be losing all his things if he fucks up on the surgery. Not that Dr's are not motivated by doing good in their work but I think the extra motivation of a huge paycheck is good.

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I think it's in everyone's interest to make sure everyone in society is as healthy as possible.

Wow three points in a row, you are getting better. I disagree with this one as well because of the broader implications of such a statement. If it is everyone's interest to make sure I am as healthy as possible then it is certainly in everyones interest to make sure I eat healthy, don't smoke, don't drink and exercise regularly. I prefer to make those decisions myself. As long as I pay for the consequences myself and do not expect others to pay for any poor health that results from these activities I can do what I want. If I turn around and say everyone has to pay when I have a heart attack then suddenly society has an interest in making sure I live a healthy lifestyle. I am simply not willing to give up that much freedom.

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I think any entity that profits from human suffering is a bad thing.
Ok. No dispute there. By the way, insurance companies lose when people suffer because they usually have to cut a check. They don't when everything is hunkydory.

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I don't see you complaining that fire service is socialized. How would you like it if that was privitized? Maybe you could save a few cents because your neighbor didn't pay for the "gold fire protection package" and the department only lets their garage burn to the ground. But hey, maybe it'll cost you 0.12 less a month. Brilliant!
 

There's a thought... hmmmm... As I have said at least three times now, I am not arguing against all government, only against universal healthcare. 

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There are plenty of ways to make money, and there are plenty of ways of motivating people to help others and the two are not either completely synonymous or mutually exclusive.

Never said they were. I can agree with that.

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If privatized healthcare was so great, wouldn't we see socialized systems going in this direction? We don't. Neither Canada nor the UK, nor France, despite peoples issues over taxation and government buracracy, would likely ever want to give up their socialized medical system.

Good, then you can move to Britain, I can keep my money and everyone will be happy. The main reason is because in modern society most of the people who pay taxes are relatively wealthy. The taxes are always levied against the "rich". So in fact, many people are better off because of socialed medicine by the simple fact that they pay relatively little or no taxes, while those that are wealthy bear the brunt of the expense. The trend of using democracy to take resources from one group to redistribute to another group greatly disturbs me. The problem is, many people are all for "free" health care. Personally, I don't see much of a difference between taxing a person to pay for another person's (who could afford it) health care and stealing. I really see it as a moral issue.

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So I don't see why it's even worth arguing over this. You can disagree with me, but you can't really cite anything substantive that gives your contrarian viewpoint much credibility.

What do you want me to cite? We are discussing opinions. So far the only thing you have cited is Moore's website, a good non-biased source I am sure. It really comes down to a moral principle. Do you have the right to expect someone else to pay for your health care?

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I think it's sad that if I get sick, I have to worry about which ambulance to call and which hospital to go to and whether or not my healthcare company covers where I end up? That's really sad.
 

It is. You should really consider switching plans.

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And the reality is there aren't any major health plans that don't have issues like this. That's a big problem with privatized healthcare. 

This is simply false. I know for a fact that United Healthcare and Assurant both offer plans that fully cover any doctor even if they are out of network. Actually, across the board, health plans that severely limited you to certain doctors are falling out of fashion. If you are interested contact me and I will hook you up.

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Hell, you have this problem in all sorts of privatized situations... with privatized telephone service it costs different amounts of money to talk to people with different carriers sometimes.  There's even more beauracracy with private carriers and all their fine print. 

 You apparently need to switch your phone service too. I can call anywhere in the US with no extra charge on my landline. And even though my cell phone company is lousy, I'm pretty satisfied. Actually, cell phones are great examples of how competition fixes problems. Cell phone companies used to have all sorts of fucked up rules and roaming expenses et. cetera. Now, the major cell phone companies offer plans with rather unrestricted use. I can use my cell phone anytime, anywhere to call anyone with having to worry. The main reason companies started changing was to compete with each other and offer better packages.

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I don't see what point you're actually making.

Ok let me make it very clear.

P1. I work hard for my money.

P2. Many people who do not have health insurance could afford it if they chose.

P3. We already have programs in place to help those who cannot afford health insurance.

P4. If you can afford but choose not to purchase health insurance I do not want to pay for your idiocy.

P5. I enjoy my ability to go to any doctor I choose whenever I need to. I do not want the government deciding for me. If a physician told me I had to wait 3-4 weeks for an appointment (wait period directly from your Moore website) I would laugh at him and go elsewhere. There is no reason for me to sacrifice my ability to get the best care so that I can pay for someone else to go to the docter.

P6. Medicare and medicaid offer extremely poor healthcare with a lot of bureaucracy. I see no reason to expect a universal healthcare system to be any different.

P7. Most Americans get there health insurance through their employer. This is a problem because they do not personally pay for it and do not shop insurance companies or docters. The health system would be much better off if people paid 100% for their own insurance and treated the doctor like any other service they purchase. They would shop docters for price and quality.

P8. There are good, high quality and affordable health care policies out there. Call a health insurance agent and ask about their health plans. Look for one that allows coverage everywhere and has very few exclusions they do exist. Shell out your own money and you won't have all the problems that everyone is complaining about.

P9. If someone else is paying for my healthcare, they have the moral right to demand I take care of my health. I like to smoke a cigar on occasion and have been known to occasionally consume too much brandy. I also enjoy eating rich unhealthy foods. I will pay for my own insurance. Please pay for yours. (You can live without the plasma tv a little while longer)

P10. I do not trust politicians. At least with CEO's I know they are motivated by money. It is easier for the government to police private companies than to prevent corruption in itself.

Private companies are not perfect but neither is the government.

There, ten clear points. I have more but I'm hungry and you probably aren't going to read them anyway.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


shelley
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I haven't been online for

I haven't been online for several days.  Pile you keep making statements  like this:

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 That doesn't mean everyone else has her magically-amazing healthcare plan that covers "100% experimental procedures".

I assume you took this from my statement that: "Also, Canada's 100% coverage does not provide for experimental treatments of which I have had many."

The 100% portion applied to Canada, NOT my coverage.  Seriously, maybe you should re-read it:

"Also, Canada's 100% coverage does not provide for experimental treatments of which I have had many." 

I said Canada's full coverage does not cover experimental treatments.  I did not say I have had 100% experimental treatments. 

 

 

 

In the future when you are going to take my words out of context and put quotes around them, perhaps you could at least keep them the same order.  Thanks. Eye-wink