alcohol/drugs

atheistaddict
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alcohol/drugs

This topic may have been discussed elsewhere in the forums but so hard to look through everything.  I am once again stopping my abuse of alcohol and drugs and looking for people to discuss related issues.  There are several people in my life who I can discuss these things with but all except for one are pushing AA and god on me.  I'm just not into that and believe that they are using the "AA god"  to do the same thing that I'm trying to do.  I know there are some core principles out of AA that are helpful and "good."  However, I don't want to join a cult and completely change my belief system.  I don't think it's necessary.  They say, I can't do this on my own.  I need god.  Huh?  I need to convince myself of the existence of an imaginary creature who will magically take away my cravings and my negative self destructive thinking patterns?  There's got to people out there like me who can relate.  I'm an atheist trying to work through the issues that lead me to want to use drugs/alcohol.  Anyone else? 


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Unfortunately, I have

Unfortunately, I have little advice to offer as I have been very fortunate not to succumb to any serious addicitons.  However, there are groups that can help.  Check out a group called The Secular Organization for Sobriety (S.O.S.) at http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/index.htm.

SOS was founded by people who were put off by the religiosity and unrealistic requirements (45 meetings in the first 45 days!?!?) of various "anonymous" programs.  And whatever you do, don't go to Alanon!  It's run by the church of scientology.

Good luck. 

You can't rationally argue out something that was not rationally argued in.


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Kelly had some good

Kelly had some good resources for secular programs for these things but I forget the names of them. Care to chime in, Kelly?

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kellym78
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There's Smart Recovery,

There's Smart Recovery, which I believe to be the best for online researching and also has online meetings with activities and groups in some areas, as well as the aforementioned group SOS. 


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I often wonder how those

I often wonder how those who argue against theism on the basis of rationality justify drug and alcohol use.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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  Many reasons ,  it's

  Many reasons ,  it's fun, it's relaxing, inspiring, adds courage, fights bordom, kills pain, spews honesty, gets girls dancing, all a hugging ,,,

of course there is the down side and abusers and crazys.

Jesus made wine and our founding fathers were most all brewers. 

All my favorites did/do enjoy getting a bit out of their soberness.  


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Actually, I don't know if

Actually, I don't know if I'm an addict.  That's what AA people like to label me.  I prefer to refer to myself as currently out of control with my use of alcohol and drugs.  Is that an addict?  I don't know.  I don't think it's as black and white as addict or not an addict.  But anyway, thanks for the info about SOS.  I briefly checked out the website and think it's what I'm looking for.  Thanks!


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:  

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  Many reasons ,  it's fun, it's relaxing, inspiring, adds courage, fights bordom, kills pain, spews honesty, gets girls dancing, all a hugging ,,,

of course there is the down side and abusers and crazys.

Jesus made wine and our founding fathers were most all brewers. 

All my favorites did/do enjoy getting a bit out of their soberness.  

 Man, I have read a lot of your posts now and can honestly say that I never understand a fucking thing you say.  I feel like I am reading Lewis Carroll or catching the end of a Jack Kerouac poem.

I understand that English may not be your primary language; however, whatever is your mother tongue, I am sure that it requires thoughts be logically connected to be in the same sentence.  For instance, "spews honesty . . . all a hugging."  What the fuck is going on there?  It's like Jar Jar Binx on acid.  Holy shit!

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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definitions...?

this thread reminds me of one of my favorite princess bride quotes -- "Life is pain, and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something." Some people use religion as a cure-all. me and hunter s thompson, we use the drugs. I'm in my fourth year of a chemistry doctorate, and the only thing that got me through the first year was lots and lots of pot (THC seems to work as a study drug for me). I'd usually how up high to the exams and, if not set the curve, at least be well ahead of it. I was just last month subjected to the last of my degree requirements before my thesis committee consisting of three P.I.s allows me to write my disseratation. This involves, among other things, a ~ 45 min. powerpoint presentation on (in my case) in vivo raman microspectroscopy. I was again quite high and drunk as well. They passed me.

You seem unsure about labeling yourself as an addict--- does you addiction still allow you to be functional? how do you define addiction? Also, what do you think motivates your drinking/drug use?

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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I would define addiction as

I would define addiction as anything that I do that makes me feel out of control of my use or behavior.  I have used drugs for 20 years, mostly pot.  There have been times in that period of time when I my use of alcohol and pot have made me feel out of control.  Meaning I use even though I don't really want to.  I feel out of control when I use to escape negative feelings.  For instance, I recently finished law school and after I passed the Bar I was looking for a job and I was extremely anxious about where my future was going to go.  I was using pot and alcohol daily to deal with my anxiety but my use simply made my feelings worse and my use escalated and began to affect my life.  I found a job, was still drinking excessively and smoking in order to deal with the pressures of my new job.  I almost got a DUI one night and went off on my boss in a drunken rage.  I saw myself on a downward spiral and knew I had to stop using.  Now that's where I start to wonder...is it simply a matter of maintaining control and using for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons or am I an addict who will always spiral out of control after a period of time.   Right now, I just know I need to stop and get myself straightened out again.  But this is my pattern for the past 20 years.  Moderate use, fine ok, life stress, excessive use, self destructive behavior and almost succeeding in that destruction.  Then abstinence until I get myself under control again....and the cycle begins again.  What do you think?


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well, it does sound like

well, it does sound like you are self medicating (as my former therapist once told me) in responce to stressors. i don't know that i would call that an addiction--- do you still use when your life is non-stressful, and when you feel in control (say on a relaxing vacation, if lawyers are allowed to have those Smiling?)

it sounds from your post as though control is a very important issue for you, and lack thereof triggers excessive drinking. if that is so, maybe reordering your enviroment would be more helpful than a 12 step program. 

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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I think you're right.  Lack

I think you're right.  Lack of control leads me to excessive use which leads to more lack of control.  I think that once I gain control over my life again, I'll be ok but then what happens?  There are always going to be times when I feel out of control over my life and then what?  I start the pattern all over again?  It really sucks.  In answer to your question, yes, when my life is going good, the use is moderate and lovely.  For now, I think I just need people to talk to when I'm feeling crazy.  I need to stay sober for now anyway. And then I'll reassess things when I'm feeling stable again.  No need to label everything.  I am in therapy and she doesn't seem to think I'm an addict or that I should go to AA.  I think she sees it as I see it...that I'm going through a major transition and it's fucking me all up.  I get confused when I talk to AA people.  They're all dramatic and freakish.  I'm an addict, I need the 12 steps and the big book and god.  Anyway, thanks for your input.  


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There are always going to

There are always going to be times when I feel out of control over my life and then what?

 well, in my experience, you never have control, you just have options. sometimes the options suck a lot, since life is a system that is far, far too complex to predict (unless the whole quantum computing thing takes off). part of what religion (and, it sounds like, AA) offers is the illusion of control over your very frightening enviroment. i find it easier to accept that there are a great many thing that can hurt me that i have no control over-- for expample, the postdoc i was working under got into a fairly horrid car accedent after we had only had a few months to work together. totally beyond my control, and i had no god to help me rationalize the event. i'm still pretty fucked up over it, as i didn't get a chance to learn things i desprately needed to know (i pretty much do his job now, as my advisor was of the opinion that grad students are cheaper than postdocs). he and i were the only two people in the lab working on spectroscopy (the other 18-odd people do TB drug discovery) and now i find i can go for days without actually talking to anyone. and when i do talk to someone they usually have not only a doctorate but a lab as well.

...and then i feel guitly becasue hey, at least i can still walk, which is more than i can say for my postdoc.

life is change-- random, usually painful, change over which an individual human has absolutly no control. 

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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I think the important thing

I think the important thing really is to will yourself to stop, or moderate use of alcohol and drugs. There's always lots of help available from different organisations (although I don't know any of the American ones) but you also have to try and help yourself.

I am a drinker and most of the time only in moderation, however I do get sporadic (but long) periods of depression which do lead me very close to alcoholism, so I do have some idea of what it is like and the only way is will power.


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One thing I can tell you for

One thing I can tell you for certain is that AA and NA and Abrahamic religions are not the answer. "Physician, heal thyself" is one of the few sensible things I have ever read of the Bible. And you know what would help you? Find one thing to concentrate on, and empower yourself with it. Make a list of all your bad habits and replace each and every one with a good habit.  So you smoke pot, huh? Every time you feel like a taking a toke, go out and skate or run bleachers at the track. You backed out of seven fights in high school? The next seven times someone says something you disagree with, speak your mind and tell them what you think, even if they aren't talking to you. Just tell someone off. You would be very pleasantly surprised at what asserting yourself will do for your psyche.


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atheistaddict

atheistaddict wrote:
Actually, I don't know if I'm an addict.  That's what AA people like to label me.  I prefer to refer to myself as currently out of control with my use of alcohol and drugs.  Is that an addict?  I don't know.  I don't think it's as black and white as addict or not an addict.  But anyway, thanks for the info about SOS.  I briefly checked out the website and think it's what I'm looking for.  Thanks!

From what I understand, AA considers a person an addict if they've ever had a drink.  Just one. 

From what I've read, it sounds like you've got a problem with your use, however.  If alcohol or drugs are actually effecting your life negatively, it's time to lay off. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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atheistaddict wrote: I

atheistaddict wrote:

I would define addiction as anything that I do that makes me feel out of control of my use or behavior. I have used drugs for 20 years, mostly pot. There have been times in that period of time when I my use of alcohol and pot have made me feel out of control. Meaning I use even though I don't really want to. I feel out of control when I use to escape negative feelings. For instance, I recently finished law school and after I passed the Bar I was looking for a job and I was extremely anxious about where my future was going to go. I was using pot and alcohol daily to deal with my anxiety but my use simply made my feelings worse and my use escalated and began to affect my life. I found a job, was still drinking excessively and smoking in order to deal with the pressures of my new job. I almost got a DUI one night and went off on my boss in a drunken rage. I saw myself on a downward spiral and knew I had to stop using. Now that's where I start to wonder...is it simply a matter of maintaining control and using for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons or am I an addict who will always spiral out of control after a period of time.

No I doubt it very much. I sounds to me that you have some problems dealing with stress. You need to learn techniques to deal with stress and the anxiety caused by stress. 

Quote:
Right now, I just know I need to stop and get myself straightened out again. But this is my pattern for the past 20 years. Moderate use, fine ok, life stress, excessive use, self destructive behavior and almost succeeding in that destruction. Then abstinence until I get myself under control again....and the cycle begins again. What do you think?

Well if you are worried about it I would speak to a councelor. Not about your drug or alcohol use but about what seems to be a stress problem. The drugs and booze its would seem are a symptom rather than cause. A bit of therapy is probably all you need. CBT can be  very effective in dealing with anxity and stress issues you basically learn to think in a different way, to view things in a different way when stress and anxiety occurs. If you can learn to handle these sitations better then in all likelyhood you won't turn to booze or dope.

 

NOTE: I'm not a proffesional counselor I'm just some bloke on the internet. But I do have plenty of experiance with drug use and have many friends that have had genuine drug addictions. From what you have said it does not seem like you have an addiction just a stress problem. 


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Thanks so much for all the

Thanks so much for all the responses.  I do have a history of depression and anxiety.  And I do think that when stress gets the better of me, I use to escape the stress.  I need coping skills to deal with those times.  This doesn't mean I can never drink or smoke again.  Right?  I think I can but for the right reasons at the right times.  I'm absolutely not tempted by AA or believers who say all I need is god.  I've been there and done that and know what I believe in and don't believe in.  Just look out for me on this string when I'm having a rough time of it....that's when I'll need you all the most. 


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atheistaddict

atheistaddict wrote:

Thanks so much for all the responses. I do have a history of depression and anxiety. And I do think that when stress gets the better of me, I use to escape the stress. I need coping skills to deal with those times. This doesn't mean I can never drink or smoke again. Right? I think I can but for the right reasons at the right times. I'm absolutely not tempted by AA or believers who say all I need is god. I've been there and done that and know what I believe in and don't believe in. Just look out for me on this string when I'm having a rough time of it....that's when I'll need you all the most.

Good luck.  Maybe getting into counseling of some sort would be thre best for you.  As for never being able to drink or smoke again, well, that'll probably be up to you.  I have friends who have gone through rehab.  Some of them cannot be around alcohol or drugs without totally going crazy.  Others seem ok, though you can tell it's a bit of a struggle.  But I'm just some chick on the internet, so go see a professional, ok? 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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atheistaddict

atheistaddict wrote:

Thanks so much for all the responses. I do have a history of depression and anxiety. And I do think that when stress gets the better of me, I use to escape the stress. I need coping skills to deal with those times.

Indeed 

Quote:
This doesn't mean I can never drink or smoke again. Right? I think I can but for the right reasons at the right times.

Absolutely. I have never held with this total abstencance nonsense. Of all the people I have seen recover from genuine addictions none of them practice total abstenance. They may give up the crack and heroin but they still have a drink from time to time. 

Quote:
I'm absolutely not tempted by AA or believers who say all I need is god. I've been there and done that and know what I believe in and don't believe in. Just look out for me on this string when I'm having a rough time of it....that's when I'll need you all the most.

Cool. If you ever want a chat let me know. I have some experiance with depression and anxiety.  


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LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:
I often wonder how those who argue against theism on the basis of rationality justify drug and alcohol use.

What, are you saying there are no Christian substance abusers?

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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pariahjane wrote:  Maybe

pariahjane wrote:

 Maybe getting into counseling of some sort would be thre best for you.  As for never being able to drink or smoke again, well, that'll probably be up to you.  I have friends who have gone through rehab.  Some of them cannot be around alcohol or drugs without totally going crazy.  Others seem ok, though you can tell it's a bit of a struggle.  But I'm just some chick on the internet, so go see a professional, ok? 

 

Rest assured,  I have been in counseling since about June and see a psychiatrist too.  That was the beginning of addressing my problems and now I'm in the middle of actually doing something about it.  Denial and avoidance--my mantra for months prior to just recently.  At first, I didn't even tell my counselor about the drugs/alcohol because I didn't want to stop but then I started to see that it was causing problems.  And I will just have to wait and see how I feel about using again in the future.  Right now, I just have to chill.     


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heh, i was just in the same

heh, i was just in the same situation a few months back.

 

except it was more because i was 'between dealers' and i knew i needed something.

 so i tricked a psychotherapist into giving me meds. i came totally clean about the drinking a pot use with her (but not that i was lacking thc at that time). got another dealer, stopped seeing the theapists.

 maybe i just took too much psychobio in collage, or maybe my neurophamochemitry is #)($*-up as all hell. either way, i found thearpy to be unhelpful, mostly because i was running circles around both of my therapists. but hey, nobody lies like a woman.

honestly, i stopped the theapy and went back to the drugs. but theapy can be cheaper, if it's covered, and there is the whole legality thing.

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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antistokes wrote:  so i

antistokes wrote:

 so i tricked a psychotherapist into giving me meds. i came totally clean about the drinking a pot use with her (but not that i was lacking thc at that time). got another dealer, stopped seeing the theapists.

 maybe i just took too much psychobio in collage, or maybe my neurophamochemitry is #)($*-up as all hell. either way, i found thearpy to be unhelpful, mostly because i was running circles around both of my therapists. but hey, nobody lies like a woman.

honestly, i stopped the theapy and went back to the drugs. but theapy can be cheaper, if it's covered, and there is the whole legality thing.

 

I don't know how I feel about the therapy, whether it's helping or not.  At first, I went to her just to deal with my anxiety.  I couldn't breath and needed tools to cope with it...and the meds I was on at the time, illicit drugs and alcohol weren't completely helping because they were the wrong meds and I couldn't be impaired at work and the anxiety was interfering with my work.  I guess I could have read a book about coping with anxiety but I have found therapy helpful in the past.  I definitely need to be medicated though.  I'm waiting for the new meds to kick in.  And the drugs/alcohol were interfering with my life and making me feel out of control.  I'm slowly starting to feel evened out again.  But hope my new meds make a difference or I might go back to at least pot.  That has always helped me in small doses and doesn't have a drastic negative affect on my life. As for you, as long as you're cool with your lifestyle and it's not interfering with your ability to function, I say have at it.  Party on!  You look young though if that's an accurate picture.  Wait till you're pushing 40 and then check back.   


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yeah--- i know waaay too

yeah--- i know waaay too many people on meds. the joke at my undergrad was that 50% of the kids we on meds, and the other 50% should be.

 i was definatly in the 'should be' catagory.

and yeah, i am but 25, so my body can still take a bit of a beating (which helps when talking to the physical chemists-- those guys can really hold their beer. espically the english ones.)

 my only concern for myself is that i'm sort of the opposite of you--- i need it to function. i don't align the laser nearly as well when i'm sober (not something i do drunk, tho).  nor do i speak up as much in lab meetings-- or get as many ideas for my publications. i also seem to spend much less time crying alone in my laser lab when i'm high. i only dislike the dependancy for the expence (i suppose i shouldn't be complaining --- at least they're paying me to get my degree Sticking out tongue).

if usage is interrupting/hinding your function (whatever they be) and if theapy works than that's the way to go. i just think psychology is bullshit, a veiw that is not helped by the fact that most of the psyche people i know agree with me. 

but it's interesting bullshit. neuroscience is today where chemisty way back in the days of the alchemists,  but look where alchemy  ended up .... 

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:
I often wonder how those who argue against theism on the basis of rationality justify drug and alcohol use.

Depends on if it's a use or an abuse. Abuse is irrational, use is not. Some argue that not experiencing everything life has to offer would be irrational since we only get one go at it.


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  Abuse is irrational, use

 

Abuse is irrational, use is not.

or, abuse is symptomatic. ok, sometimes of irrationality. 

 I often wonder how those who argue against theism on the basis of rationality justify drug and alcohol use.

 why should i justify what makes me feel good --- that being said-- it's interesting that many religions incorportate drug use right into the mythos (water to wine, anyone?--- of course, in those days, the wine was prolly safer). 

also, human nueroreptors and a motherlovin fuckedup relationionship with plant hormones, generally the large organic ones with messed up three dimentional structures. the evolution's gotta be strange on that one.  

 

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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antistokes wrote:  my

antistokes wrote:

 my only concern for myself is that i'm sort of the opposite of you--- i need it to function. i don't align the laser nearly as well when i'm sober (not something i do drunk, tho).  nor do i speak up as much in lab meetings-- or get as many ideas for my publications. i also seem to spend much less time crying alone in my laser lab when i'm high. i only dislike the dependancy for the expence (i suppose i shouldn't be complaining --- at least they're paying me to get my degree Sticking out tongue).

 Well, why do you cry?  I understand that feeling and the need to escape it.  But are there deeper issues that are not being resolved because of your use?  Or are they issues that are never going to go away no matter whether you're straight or not?  I understand that too.  I can tell you from experience that you would probably learn how to function straight after some time sober.  Trust me, I'm not advocating that you change your ways or judging your behavior.  I'm just responding to what you said and opening this line of conversation up for further development if you want. 

 if usage is interrupting/hinding your function (whatever they be) and if theapy works than that's the way to go. i just think psychology is bullshit, a veiw that is not helped by the fact that most of the psyche people i know agree with me. 

 I don't think therapy works to stop my usage.  I need people to contact at the moments that I want to use for the wrong reasons--when I'm sad, upset, frustrated, angry.  I need to learn how to deal with those feelings, I think.  Otherwise, that's when self destruction comes in to play.  That's kind of what led me to this forum.  I'm looking for people to talk to about this shit. 

but it's interesting bullshit. neuroscience is today where chemisty way back in the days of the alchemists,  but look where alchemy  ended up .... 

I don't know how to use this quote function so this may be confusing.  Read through the whole thing for my inserted comments...but anyway, I'm not so sure whether therapy is helping.  I think I just need the right meds.  When I'm not ready to deal with an issue, I avoid talking about it anyway and then when I am ready to deal with it, I have already resolved it by the time I get to my next session.  I was just thinking this morning about quitting.  I was a psych major and before that I was in therapy.  I learned so much about myself then.  But now, I know myself sooooo well and am no longer able to live in denial.  I have moments of denial but I know I'm doing it now.  then when I'm ready to deal with things, I am able to do it on my own.  That's it, I'm going to quit. 

 

 


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antistokes wrote:  my

antistokes wrote:

 my only concern for myself is that i'm sort of the opposite of you--- i need it to function. i don't align the laser nearly as well when i'm sober (not something i do drunk, tho).  nor do i speak up as much in lab meetings-- or get as many ideas for my publications. i also seem to spend much less time crying alone in my laser lab when i'm high. i only dislike the dependancy for the expence (i suppose i shouldn't be complaining --- at least they're paying me to get my degree Sticking out tongue).

 I see what you mean.  I use to escape bad feelings, not to be able to function.  But why do you cry?  What's that about? 

if usage is interrupting/hinding your function (whatever they be) and if theapy works than that's the way to go. i just think psychology is bullshit, a veiw that is not helped by the fact that most of the psyche people i know agree with me. 

but it's interesting bullshit. neuroscience is today where chemisty way back in the days of the alchemists,  but look where alchemy  ended up .... 

I don't know if therapy helps.  I'm thinking of quitting.  I don't talk about things that I don't want to talk about anyway.  And then when I'm ready to talk about it, I've already resolved the issue.  I was a psych major and think it is helpful to put a label on certain behaviors and understand them in order to treat them...again back to medication.  I really think that's all I need.


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Hey man, I work in the

Hey man, I work in the field so if you have any questions send them my way. The link Kelly sent you is excellent. You may also want to check out www.moderationmanagement.org

Sometimes people develop problems with substances that do not call for complete abstinence to solve the problem.

You maybe able to find helpful treatment providers @ www.harmreduction.org

 

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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Sorry, I mean

Sorry, I mean www.moderation.org

 


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atheistaddict wrote: I

atheistaddict wrote:
I think you're right.  Lack of control leads me to excessive use which leads to more lack of control.  I think that once I gain control over my life again, I'll be ok but then what happens?  There are always going to be times when I feel out of control over my life and then what?  I start the pattern all over again?  It really sucks.  In answer to your question, yes, when my life is going good, the use is moderate and lovely.  For now, I think I just need people to talk to when I'm feeling crazy.  I need to stay sober for now anyway. And then I'll reassess things when I'm feeling stable again.  No need to label everything.  I am in therapy and she doesn't seem to think I'm an addict or that I should go to AA.  I think she sees it as I see it...that I'm going through a major transition and it's fucking me all up.  I get confused when I talk to AA people.  They're all dramatic and freakish.  I'm an addict, I need the 12 steps and the big book and god.  Anyway, thanks for your input.  

 I would agree with your therapist. You use does seem to be harmful but not an addiction (whatever that is), however if you can develop skills and other strategies to manage those emotions other than drug use, your use may not become problematic.  You won't get those skills at AA and will likely lose parts of your life that will help you through this period. I like the ideas of changing your environment aroudn and also changing your thinking about your current situation and stressor. A greek philosopher once said "It is not things that a scary, but man's interpretation of them."

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:
I often wonder how those who argue against theism on the basis of rationality justify drug and alcohol use.

By thinking about is and making sense of the emprical evidence. Drug and alcohol use in and of itself is not a problem. Alcohol and Nicotine are actually the most dangerous and lethal substances. Nobody dies or has problems from moderate and responsible use of drugs. A good portion of problems with drug use is due in part to their illegality. It is the theistic morality of this country towards drug use that has created a whole host of other problems with it's zero tolerence policies. There are more people in jail for drug related charges than any other crime. The illegal drug market drives gangs and problems in the ghettos.  

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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

atheistaddict wrote:
Actually, I don't know if I'm an addict.  That's what AA people like to label me.  I prefer to refer to myself as currently out of control with my use of alcohol and drugs.  Is that an addict?  I don't know.  I don't think it's as black and white as addict or not an addict.  But anyway, thanks for the info about SOS.  I briefly checked out the website and think it's what I'm looking for.  Thanks!

 

From what I understand, AA considers a person an addict if they've ever had a drink.  Just one. 

From what I've read, it sounds like you've got a problem with your use, however.  If alcohol or drugs are actually effecting your life negatively, it's time to lay off. 

 

Actually the original AA mentions nothing about being an Addict. It only excepts those who wish to stop drinking. It does believe that one drink is too many for it's members. They believe that people become powerless after taking one drink and they lose all control. This has been widely disputed by research by Alan Marlatt were alcoholics were given alcohol and told it was not alcohol. There were four groups that were either given or not given alcohol or told that they had alcohol or not. The alcohol was indetectable. Amazingly only those who were told it was alcohol drank to excessive levels and reported being drunk. That means those who did not drink alcohol thought they were drunk and those who were given alcohol and told it was not were able to control their drinking.

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atheistaddict wrote: I

atheistaddict wrote:

I don't know how I feel about the therapy, whether it's helping or not.  At first, I went to her just to deal with my anxiety.  I couldn't breath and needed tools to cope with it...and the meds I was on at the time, illicit drugs and alcohol weren't completely helping because they were the wrong meds and I couldn't be impaired at work and the anxiety was interfering with my work.  I guess I could have read a book about coping with anxiety but I have found therapy helpful in the past.  I definitely need to be medicated though.  I'm waiting for the new meds to kick in.  And the drugs/alcohol were interfering with my life and making me feel out of control.  I'm slowly starting to feel evened out again.  But hope my new meds make a difference or I might go back to at least pot.  That has always helped me in small doses and doesn't have a drastic negative affect on my life. As for you, as long as you're cool with your lifestyle and it's not interfering with your ability to function, I say have at it.  Party on!  You look young though if that's an accurate picture.  Wait till you're pushing 40 and then check back.   

Do you have homework assignments in therapy or do you just talk about your feelings and early childhood experiences???

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I see what you mean. I

I see what you mean. I use to escape bad feelings, not to be able to function. But why do you cry? What's that about?

i get panic and anxeity attacks. like i mentioned, my postdoc got blown out of the picture, and now i'm trying to do his job. i'm just a grad student and was in no way qualified to take over when andy got hurt. in general there is a lot of stress over publishing and grants and fixing the goddamned laser when it breaks, which happens more than it should because once again i am not qualified to do this. but i am literally the only person aside from my advisor in my lab who works on projects that are very important for publishing and funding. we have a lot of collaborators that i work with but they are very far away--- so i bascially have no friends to talk to. add to that some sort of, say, degree requirement with a deadline approaching and i wind up underneath the lab bench sobbing for 40 mins. before i get my ass back to the manuscript/experiment.

yeah, i tried to go outside the lab for social interaction. i'm on long island, so that didn't work out so well. most of the people i talk to are at least 1000 miles away. cept for my advisor, whom i love, but of whom i am terrified.

there's also the fact that i went straight from high school to college to grad school-- and always had a summer intership. even my parents are telling me the take some serious time off (i suspect this may be a ploy for grandkids tho).

so, i work too much and i have no one to bitch to about it, basically. but humans, evens ones as antisocial as me, are social creatures. i've never not had friends like this before, and even my family is thousands of miles away.

there's also the general depression for no reason, but that's my mind staking itself against me, and i've been dealing with that since i was 13. my feelings are not always real and not to be trusted.

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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RationalSchema

RationalSchema wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

atheistaddict wrote:
Actually, I don't know if I'm an addict. That's what AA people like to label me. I prefer to refer to myself as currently out of control with my use of alcohol and drugs. Is that an addict? I don't know. I don't think it's as black and white as addict or not an addict. But anyway, thanks for the info about SOS. I briefly checked out the website and think it's what I'm looking for. Thanks!

 

From what I understand, AA considers a person an addict if they've ever had a drink. Just one.

From what I've read, it sounds like you've got a problem with your use, however. If alcohol or drugs are actually effecting your life negatively, it's time to lay off.

 

Actually the original AA mentions nothing about being an Addict. It only excepts those who wish to stop drinking. It does believe that one drink is too many for it's members. They believe that people become powerless after taking one drink and they lose all control. This has been widely disputed by research by Alan Marlatt were alcoholics were given alcohol and told it was not alcohol. There were four groups that were either given or not given alcohol or told that they had alcohol or not. The alcohol was indetectable. Amazingly only those who were told it was alcohol drank to excessive levels and reported being drunk. That means those who did not drink alcohol thought they were drunk and those who were given alcohol and told it was not were able to control their drinking.

That's quite interesting.  Why do they think that is?  The results, I mean.  

To clarify, my knowledge of AA is from some friends who are/were in it.  I believe they no longer speak to me because they caught me smoking a cigarette (I quit over a year ago) at a friend's wedding.  Hey, it was a special occasion and nothing compared to the pack and a half I had been smoking for the past ten years.  Regardless, even one slip up is apparently considered a failure and lack of willpower.  Go figure. 

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antistokes wrote: there's

antistokes wrote:

there's also the general depression for no reason, but that's my mind staking itself against me, and i've been dealing with that since i was 13. my feelings are not always real and not to be trusted.

First, depression is nothing to dally with.  There are some excellent drugs that will help.  You need to give a physician the time to figure out what med and what amount is best for you.  Self medication may seem easy, but it is not an answer.

Second, your feelings are always real.  They may not be what seems appropriate for the moment, but they are real.  So, don't ignore them.  Anyone of any intelligence is going to be depressed.  It goes with the territory.  Only idiots are happy all the time because they don't know what the hell is really going on.

Finally, you can receive help without all of the psychobabble bullshit.  Remember, psychologists are people who say through Psych 101 and said, "Wow, I never realized this about people before."  The rest of us intuit the stuff, and the psych major has never seen it before.  What a surprise that they rely on stupid theories when dealing with people.  (I dated a psychologist.  It was the worst year of my life, and I've had cancer.)

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First, depression is

First, depression is nothing to dally with.  There are some excellent drugs that will help.  You need to give a physician the time to figure out what med and what amount is best for you. 

these things i know.  why, the woman who was doing my job before me is on her fourth medication and still "not normal", as she said in the email. she had similar panick attacks. most of the people i went to high school and ungergrad did as well, and  there is a reason i do not date people who are taking them. espically for severe ocd. 

my parents insisted on a therapist after an incidint when i was a teenager. that didn't go over so well. mostly for the therapist.

but i accept my wiring.  i know when things get all exponential that its not me doing the thinking anymore. most of it is the enviroment-- i should not have come out to this goddforsaken coast. eviroment changes geometry changes ground state energy levels-- a classic problem. i'm fine not using when i'm in the uk, for example (still use, but i don't need to for function). of course, i have more of a social life near oxford than i do here. 

going back to wiring, and not trusting the drugs. maybe i've read too much literature on drug design at this point but we are nowhere near where i would like to be with this feild. humankind, esp ones of my genetic heritage (english/german), has had a very long coevolution with beer at least. as for pot, well, like i said, plants are weird and the chemistry is pretty fucked up.  isolates with just the thc molecule, say, will not get you as high as the plant as there are tons of chemicals in there (some of which may be neuroprotective).

tell you what-- you give me a neuron by neuron account of minds, and then i'll start checking out meds.  (i'm not by any means saying this can't be done!!)

(I dated a psychologist.  It was the worst year of my life, and I've had cancer.)

lol, i counciled a friend of mind when he when though that particular roller coaster ride.

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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Well, good luck to you. 

Well, good luck to you.  There was a time that this would have stirred me up but ... *takes three pills* ... now I am physically incapable of getting to wound up.

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There was a time that this

There was a time that this would have stirred me up but ... *takes three pills* ... now I am physically incapable of getting to wound up.

 

HA!  I totally know what you mean.  I used to be that way too.  Now, I say...why take things personal when they're not.  Seriously though, medication is a wonderful thing.  I am feeling so much better than when I started this forum.  Either the meds are kicking in or the non use of drugs/alcohol is having a positive effect.  I think it's the meds personally since in the past non use just made me depressed.  But I feel like I have no reason to use anymore.  Of course I have my moments but I fight them because I'm afraid that I start a habit again and I know I'll feel like shit when I come down.  I work out every day to keep me focused on my goal of feeling good and I've been eating only healthy stuff because "bad" food makes me feel bad, bloated, fat, unhappy...then I want to drink or drug again.  I have lots of fun issues...Ain't Life grand...


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RationalSchema wrote: Hey

RationalSchema wrote:

Hey man, I work in the field so if you have any questions send them my way. The link Kelly sent you is excellent. You may also want to check out www.moderationmanagement.org

Sometimes people develop problems with substances that do not call for complete abstinence to solve the problem.

You maybe able to find helpful treatment providers @ www.harmreduction.org

Thanks!  I was talking to my therapist about this just yesterday.  She said she has a client who has learned to really control his usage.  He sets up rules for himself and sticks by those rules.  But I'm saying, if I have to spend so much energy making up rules and sticking to them, is it really worth it?  Substances just make me feel like shit anyway.  Physically and mentally.  I'm really starting to be happy...whatever that is...happier, I'll say.  I think the meds are kicking in.  Ha ha.


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Do you have homework

Do you have homework assignments in therapy or do you just talk about your feelings and early childhood experiences???

 

She has given me homework assignments to deal with my anxiety but no homework every time.  And she does give me different tools or methods to try to deal with other situations in my life.  We don't talk that much about my childhood.  Some but not focused on that.  I'm beyond that anyway.  I've dealt with all that.  The things I deal with now are all environmental and my emotional/mental responses to my environment.  I was going to stop going to her but yesterday I had such a great session that I want to keep seeing her but am going to cut it down.  I tend to deal with my problems before I even get to see her.  I have one very good friend who I work most of my shit out with.  She's just like me in almost every way.  But problems within my marriage and my issues with control --be it alcohol, drugs, food, exercise, shopping--I think she really helps me with.  I have a problem with knowing what is "normal" behavior and thinking that I'm all fucked up.  But she usually ends up telling me my behavior is ok and that it's fucked up if...then she tells me the if and I see that I'm ok.     


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antistokes wrote: Ii get

antistokes wrote:

Ii get panic and anxeity attacks. like i mentioned, my postdoc got blown out of the picture, and now i'm trying to do his job. i'm just a grad student and was in no way qualified to take over when andy got hurt. in general there is a lot of stress over publishing and grants and fixing the goddamned laser when it breaks, which happens more than it should because once again i am not qualified to do this. but i am literally the only person aside from my advisor in my lab who works on projects that are very important for publishing and funding. we have a lot of collaborators that i work with but they are very far away--- so i bascially have no friends to talk to. add to that some sort of, say, degree requirement with a deadline approaching and i wind up underneath the lab bench sobbing for 40 mins. before i get my ass back to the manuscript/experiment.

yeah, i tried to go outside the lab for social interaction. i'm on long island, so that didn't work out so well. most of the people i talk to are at least 1000 miles away. cept for my advisor, whom i love, but of whom i am terrified.

there's also the fact that i went straight from high school to college to grad school-- and always had a summer intership. even my parents are telling me the take some serious time off (i suspect this may be a ploy for grandkids tho).

so, i work too much and i have no one to bitch to about it, basically. but humans, evens ones as antisocial as me, are social creatures. i've never not had friends like this before, and even my family is thousands of miles away.

there's also the general depression for no reason, but that's my mind staking itself against me, and i've been dealing with that since i was 13. my feelings are not always real and not to be trusted.

 

Wow!  You know, you are more like me than you may think.  It sounds like you are using to cope with your anxiety.  And the general depression for no reason.  I too have dealt with that since I was in primary school.  I know what you mean about believing that your mind is against you...I have felt that too.  I can never distinguish though when my feelings cannot be trusted.  I only knew that my bad feelings would go away eventually.  And I would be happier again one day.  And being antisocial...that too is totally me.  anyway, I have nothing helpful to say here but only that you do indeed sound very much like me.  I can relate with how you feel.  And before you said something like "why do I have to justify my use to anyone"...and my response to that is you absolutely don't.  You only have yourself to contend with.  If you're ok, everyone else should shut the fuck up (unless they feel harmed or hurt by  something you do or say to them).  But are you ok?


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I can never distinguish

I can never distinguish though when my feelings cannot be trusted. I only knew that my bad feelings would go away eventually. And I would be happier again one day.

my father the minister once told me that sometimes it is ok to be sad. he have have a belief system that still confuses the hell out of me, but preacher men tend to be damn good with human behavior. but there is sad in responce to some external factor and there is sad for no reason at all that you, at least, can see.

and what is "you"? and what are "feelings"? (i always did want to be spock when i was a kid-- or a bene gesserit witch) some of the dirty hippies that when to my undergrad always claimed they could 'feel the chemistry' when on any kind of reasonably stong hallucinogen. i think it drove me more crazy to know that there didn't seem to be an external causation for feeling like my puppy had just died, all the time, for no reason. faulty neurochemitry was a rope that i clung to when it got real bad-- a line of reasoning that would allow me to rationalize the feelings. and i only cut myself when i couldn't feel anything at all, because that was even more frightening than the puppy just died feeling. part of my research goals are guided by these experiences-- i want to understand what the hell is going on with my head. i tried to see the phychotherapist once-- who addittedly i liked a lot better than the psyphologist (who kept saying things i already knew, like to get out and meet people. ha! not a fat chance of that happening, not on this island, and probably not on this coast. i have met more neurotic boys than on this goddforsaken side of the country than i did in high school in seattle, which at the time was little goth kids central).

But are you ok?

i'll be fine. only got like a year left-- 1.5 tops....and i've done most of the requirements, expect for that whole disseration bit. if i wanted to kill myself i'd wrap it up next semester, but now that my back/spine had decided to rise against me in rebellion (just saw the chiropractor-- for the "stress level" feild he just put down 'grad student&#39Eye-wink. and it's not like i haven't ever not had anyone to talk to before-- i once when about two years without any social interaction when i was a kid (i decided that i we were going to move again there was no point to knowing anyone that i would have to leave behind-- i got a lot of reading done).

but at least my parents had the grace to live in oregon, not in one of these puritianical little self-centered suburbs. of course, i hear that i should be glad i'm not in jersy (growing up, i thought that kevin smith was joking in all his movies. i never though there were real people like that).

but back to distinguishing-- i think the mind is way more inherently schitzophrenic than western thought/civilization (grecko-roman) would like us to tell ourselves. if one pathway, one thought, one idea, one network somehow gets enhanced over all the other signal and chatter, then that is always a bad thing. even under such precepts as unitarity of thought. the golden mean springs to mind, of course. 

"Everything is entropy, everything is statistical, everything is random."
"Entropy is god. Under certain conditions, god will look like deltaG."
"We wouldn't have god if it wasn't a state function!" D. Gerrity


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Nero wrote: First,

Nero wrote:

First, depression is nothing to dally with.  There are some excellent drugs that will help.  You need to give a physician the time to figure out what med and what amount is best for you.  Self medication may seem easy, but it is not an answer.

Second, your feelings are always real.  They may not be what seems appropriate for the moment, but they are real.  So, don't ignore them.  Anyone of any intelligence is going to be depressed.  It goes with the territory.  Only idiots are happy all the time because they don't know what the hell is really going on.

Finally, you can receive help without all of the psychobabble bullshit.  Remember, psychologists are people who say through Psych 101 and said, "Wow, I never realized this about people before."  The rest of us intuit the stuff, and the psych major has never seen it before.  What a surprise that they rely on stupid theories when dealing with people.  (I dated a psychologist.  It was the worst year of my life, and I've had cancer.)

I am sorry to hear that you have had such bad experiences with Psychologists or therapists. I understand there are a good portion of quacks out there, Dr. Phil included, that give the field a bad name. However, I the majority of us practice based on the science and empirical evidence of psychology and do not babble on about meaningless and unhelpful terms. I don't know what type of people you have run into that take psych 101 and say they now know more about people. Psych 101 is more of the basic science and does not really touch clinical psych that often. In actually your feelings are real, but your thoughts are not alwasy correct about yourself and the world around you. Just becaue you feel bad does not mean that things really are bad.

Lastly, there are medications that do help people, but a close examination of the research on psychotropic medications suggests a limited effectiveness and a small knowledge about how exactly the medications work.

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

 

That's quite interesting.  Why do they think that is?  The results, I mean.  

To clarify, my knowledge of AA is from some friends who are/were in it.  I believe they no longer speak to me because they caught me smoking a cigarette (I quit over a year ago) at a friend's wedding.  Hey, it was a special occasion and nothing compared to the pack and a half I had been smoking for the past ten years.  Regardless, even one slip up is apparently considered a failure and lack of willpower.  Go figure. 

There are a number of possible explanations.

1. The power of suggestion

2. Through suggestion the individual activates those areas of the brain that are associated with their alcohol use and behave according to their past experiences with alcohol.

3. I do think it highly points to the situational factors involved with substance use. That it is not just the substance or a necessary fault of the person that is the problem.

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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Another wrinkle to my

Another wrinkle to my problems is that the last time I drank, I hooked up with a married guy.  I also am married.  He lives on the other side of the country from me so that helps.  But we continued talking almost every day for about a month.  And finally after the proper medication, sobriety and time, I realized that our whatever it is relationship was interfering with my marriage.  i wasn't fully present in it and it was causing problems.  I was irritable and bitchy and contemplating leaving, not to be with this guy, but just believing that the marriage was lost.  So last night, I told the guy I can't do this anymore, whatever it is we were doing, and that's it.  I am grieving now.  I cried and cried and now I'm still sad.  I don't know why really.  I'm not even sure if I really liked the guy or if I would have liked this guy if I ended up with him.  I've known him apx. 5 weeks total and it seems like months.  I'm not sure why my feelings are so strong and if they are feelings towards this guy or feelings about something else entirely.  any thoughts?  questions?


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update

Well, now that my meds seem to be normalizing me again, I'm much more rational about my thoughts re: life and marriage and drug/alcohol abuse and everything.  I see things in a much more realistic way and am working on changing the way I think about life's experiences, about my feelings and the crazy thoughts that still creep in.  And I'm back to the beginning of this forum topic trying to stay clean and resist my compulsions.  I know that using becomes a downward spiral for me and that I can do it moderately for awhile but will always fuck it up eventually.  So, SOS here I come.