I need advice...

DelphicRaven
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I need advice...

Hey everyone,

I find myself in need of advice so here I am!

I work in a small office and I live in Utah. That being said all of my co-workers are mormons. They are very nice people who have come to be friends of mine in the course of working here.

One of my co-workers I work alone with a few times a week is doing some stuff that is really boarderline offending me. I'm trying to figure out if I'm too touchy, and if I'm not, what do I do about her behavior?

This morning she opened up discussions with me about how true the book of mormon is. She doesn't know I'm Atheist, but she does know I am NOT mormon and I have very strong feelings about the church. After hearing all of her reasons why, I let the conversation fade off. I didn't want to open a discourse with her at work. Pardon me, but I think religion is something that needs to be left at home and not brought into the work place.

 Aside from that she prays openly at her desk before she eats. That wouldn't be a problem if she wasn't the receptionist, and the first person people see when they walk into our building. She doesn't care who's around, but she just blatently does it. I really wouldn't care if she did it in the kitchen or something, but not where the whole world can see her display of her love of God. Give me a break. That really almost offends me. Aside from the fact that I end up doing her work while she talkes to her God, I feel almost like she's advertizing her beliefs and rubbing anyone who's in viewing distances face in it. 

I feel like she's pushing her beliefs on me and I really don't think I, or anyone entering the office, should see her blatent display of religion. This is NOT a religious company. No one else in the office does that, just her. I really am trying to figure out if I'm being too touchy about it all, and if I should just let it go. Besides the fact that I'm the only non-mormon here, I'm afraid of broaching the subject with my very mormon boss. I don't want to get fired or anything else. 

 Anyone's advice or imput would be welcome. Has anyone else encountered this? What should (if anything) I do?

--Sarah-- 


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My experience with Mormons

My experience with Mormons is that they have a strong tendency to protect each other and just like many other religions, they tend to be harsh and prejudicial w/ anyone who doesn't agree.  You're in a no-win situation at that particular job I would say and you should probably go w/ the flow so to speak.

If you complain to upper management you already know whose side they will take, right ?  Play it cool is my advice but document everything.  If you're being singled out for discrimination and forced to endure the indoctrination of others, you may just have grounds for a "Hazardous Work Environment" lawsuit.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


triften
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I would tell her "I don't

I would tell her "I don't think this is an appropriate conversation for the workplace." It's firm and (I think) reasonable, so if she gets flustered, she seems like the nutcase.

As far as the prayer, don't let the act itself get to you (yeah, I know, she's talking to her imaginary friend), but the slacking. Why are you doing her job for her? (I'm assuming you mean answering the phone.) I'd say let it ring, you've got other responsibilities, right? Picking up that slack just gives her more room to slack off.

If you need to talk to a supervisor, don't broach any of these issues as "She's SOOOO religious", approach it in the vein of its actual effect on work. "She's making me uncomfortable, I asked her not to ask me about it at work and she kept pressing the issue." "She's not answering the phones." or "She's not talking to customers." Let her actions have consequences and someone will notice that the phone is ringing ten times before it is answered.

-Triften 


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I would advise you to talk

I would advise you to talk to a superior about it, letting them know that not only does it make you feel uncomfortable, but it could make potential clients uncomfortable.

I don't know much what Mormons believe, but maybe they have a similar thing that Christians do, in the Bible, and maybe quoting such a belief to her will show her that her own beliefs forbid public praying:

(This is Jesus talking)

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."


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I would be treating it


I would be treating it exactly the same as any other discriminatory behaviour. The same laws (at least in Australia, but presumably US as well) that protect the free expression of gender, sexual preference, etc apply to spirituality. Choosing not to be religious is not having NO spirituality, because most people at least like to think there's something vaguely interesting after death, so there's no reason why you can't be free to express your non-christian beliefs.

My advice would be to firstly, let your employer know the situation. Say that not only is it infringing on your own religious rights (if they ask what religion you are, don't tell them, just say it's irrelevant...they CAN NOT force you to talk about your religious views), but it's affecting your ability to complete your work.

Secondly, contact either a union (if applicable) or an industry ombudsman. You haven't mentioned what industry you work in but most will have representatives who work with employees, businesses and government to deal with cases of harassment and discrimination (which is what your situation sounds like it's going to eventually become).

Thirdly, as somebody else already mentioned, document everything. It's usually easiest to get a one-day-per-page diary and keep notes. However, be VERY careful not to let anybody see you writing in it. You will be questioned about it and then they may begin to document you back. It will be very easy for them to present a case for you being incompetent at work (ie. "she's only complaining to shirk the responsibility of not being able to do her job&quotEye-wink if they've had a few months to watch how many t's and i's you forget to cross and dot.

Finally, take a look at your contract (if you have one) and the code of conduct. Is the workplace classified as a 'religious site' (you'd be surprised what some businesses can do)? Does it say that this business is a Mormon one? Is it a requirement of employees to sign off that they will respect christian beliefs (or something to that effect)? Go see a solicitor if you're having trouble getting through the legalese.

Believe me, I've been in a similar situation, but not with religion. I was a teacher who was threatened with death by a student. The school admin did nothing and when I made a complaint to higher up about it, the school suddenly produced all this documentation of incompetence (all of it bogus). The school admin ended up being investigated and several people given the sack. It wasn't fun, but I had documented EVERYTHING and had corroborating witnesses, etc.

Anyway, hope something in there helped!

~Puck~


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Welcome, Puck759! When you

Welcome, Puck759!

When you get a moment, we'd love it if you'd hop over to the General Conversation, Introductions and Humor forum and introduce yourself. 

In reply to your post, offices in the U.S. rarely have a union or any kind of employee representative.  Larger companies have Human Resources departments where you could take complaints like this, but DelphicRaven said it's a small office.

As for contracts, employees rarely have them in the U.S. except for consultants and high level executives. 

DelphicRaven also wrote that she's the only non-mormon in the office.  Unfortunately (right or wrong), she's not going to get any support from management in this situation because I guarantee that mormon management is going to think the god-talk and praying is just fine.

DelphicRaven, about the only things you can do (besides look for another job) are:

1) When questioned about your beliefs, just very politely say that you think beliefs are a personal matter and you're not comfortable discussing it (and find somewhere to go so they don't start questioning you about why you don't want to discuss it).

2) iIf you go to management, leave religion/praying/etc completely out of the conversation and talk about how you're having to do that person's job as well as your own.  Be able to back up your concerns with concete examples and perhaps statistics.  For instance, "I have to stop computing monthly sales figures for 20 minutes every day and take care of clients because Mary/Marsha/Shelly/whatever is reading."  (Not mentioning that the person is reading her bible.)

It probably wouldn't be wise to comment about how it looks bad to a client coming in and seeing the receptionist praying.  Again, your management probably thinks that's a positive thing.

Their feelings about that sort of thing won't change until they are losing lots of business because of it and are aware of the reason they are losing business.  (Alas, in Utah, that probably won't happen.) 

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22jesus22
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Personally I think you are

Personally I think you are being a bit too touchy.  I would simply ignore her behaviour and get over it.  You live in Utah shouldn't you be use to that kind of stuff?

 

If it really is affecting her work, and making you do more work then you are responsible for, then I would talk to someone in charge.  If it isn't, just get over it. 


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22jesus22 wrote: Personally

22jesus22 wrote:
Personally I think you are being a bit too touchy. I would simply ignore her behaviour and get over it. You live in Utah shouldn't you be use to that kind of stuff?

 

If it really is affecting her work, and making you do more work then you are responsible for, then I would talk to someone in charge. If it isn't, just get over it.

Okay, that's what you would do, but she is herself and this is bothering her enough to come here and get advice from us.

There is no reason to just put up with it unless it wasn't bothering her. It obviously IS bothering her, so something should be done. I'd be a bit touchy too if someone was going off about religion and assuming I'd sit there and take it (which DID happen, at my last job. I was glad when that girl quit so I could finally stop avoiding her...though it was hard to do even that when she would strike up religious conversation with me and/or someone else just inside the door of my office).

And why, exactly, should she be "used to this kind of stuff?" You'll have to spell it out for me; I'm exhausted at the moment and I don't get it. The way you made it sound, I think it's completely unnecessary to assume that she simply must.

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22jesus22
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I'm sorry but did I miss

I'm sorry but did I miss something? 

 
“This morning she opened up discussions with me about how true the book of mormon is. She doesn't know I'm Atheist, but she does know I am NOT mormon and I have very strong feelings about the church. After hearing all of her reasons why, I let the conversation fade off. I didn't want to open a discourse with her at work. Pardon me, but I think religion is something that needs to be left at home and not brought into the work place.” 

 
Let’s see first offensive thing she does is opens up a conversation! By the way did you tell her that you thought religion shouldn’t be discussed at work? If you haven’t I would suggest that’s the first thing that should be done.

 
“ Aside from that she prays openly at her desk before she eats. That wouldn't be a problem if she wasn't the receptionist, and the first person people see when they walk into our building. She doesn't care who's around, but she just blatently does it. I really wouldn't care if she did it in the kitchen or something, but not where the whole world can see her display of her love of God. Give me a break. That really almost offends me. Aside from the fact that I end up doing her work while she talkes to her God, I feel almost like she's advertizing her beliefs and rubbing anyone who's in viewing distances face in it. “

 

 
Second offensive thing is praying! Oh sweet Jesus not praying!  This thread reminds me of a fundamental Christian disgusted with an atheist.  If she’s praying by herself, at lunch time I don’t think there is any reason to be offended.

 
Third offensive thing…the work issue, I’ve already commented on that.

 
I’m sorry but everyone should have the right to freely practice or not practice religion.  In this case I think the “offensive” lady has the right to pray, and open up discussions with you.  If this bothers you simply ignore it.  If you are unable to do that then I would suggest speaking with her.  I do think you are being a bit touchy though.

 

 
Now as for Dematrah..

 
I offered my advice/opinion on the matter, which I was asked for.  She asked if anyone thought she was being too touchy, I think she is, so I said she was.  I don’t see why you felt the need to challenge my opinion there.

 
As for her being "use to that kind of stuff" I was simply assuming that she faced a lot of religious activities, since she does live in Utah, the Mormon capital of the world.  In her post she even mentions that all of her co-workers are Mormons and she is the only non-Mormon.  Based on that, I was just assuming that she would have dealt with religious conversation and prayer before.


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Here is a tutorial for

Here is a tutorial for using the Quote Function.  Using this function makes things a whole let easier to read.

Thanks. 

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Dematrah
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22jesus22 wrote: Now as for

22jesus22 wrote:
Now as for Dematrah..


I offered my advice/opinion on the matter, which I was asked for. She asked if anyone thought she was being too touchy, I think she is, so I said she was. I don’t see why you felt the need to challenge my opinion there.


As for her being "use to that kind of stuff" I was simply assuming that she faced a lot of religious activities, since she does live in Utah, the Mormon capital of the world. In her post she even mentions that all of her co-workers are Mormons and she is the only non-Mormon. Based on that, I was just assuming that she would have dealt with religious conversation and prayer before.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think stating your opinion is a very good thing. But I don't consider it good to advise an action that won't resolve the problem or how uncomfortable she is with it.

Perhaps it's just me. I don't see why it could be considered okay for these things to continue happening based on the assumption that they should be used to it because they live in a certain area.

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I'd punch her and say "MY

I'd punch her and say "MY FRIEND IS BETTER RAAAAH" and run off with your arms flailing wildly.


DelphicRaven
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Wow, people sure have a

Wow, people sure have a weird view of what life in Utah is really like.. haha!

First, just because this is the "Mormon capitol" does NOT mean that mormons run here there and everywhere spreading their word and praying in public. It doesn't happen. Actually, I've lived here a good chunk of my life and this is the first time I have ever encountered something like this. I stated that my co workers were all mormon simply because they are all mormon and SHE is the only one behaving in the way that she is. Assuming that because I live in the Mormon capitol I should be use to public prayer is iike assuming that an atheist in the bible belt should get over themselves because they are surrounded by Christians constantly.

Second, yes, her behavior is personally offensive to me. She is basically trying to convert me and no matter how much I tell her "hey, religion should be left at home" she won't stop. Wouldn't it be offensive to YOU if the only time someone talked to YOU was when they were trying to convert you and bring you into the light and love of their personal savior? I'm her personal crusade and no matter what I say it won't stop. Not only is she trying to constantly convert me but her comments are belitteling and rude. "Once you grow up you'll understand how wrong you really are" and that kind of stuff. Not to mention she says things like that when important people are in the office. Yes, I have mentioned her behavior to her, yes I have requested that she stop and YES I have talked to co-workers about it. She won't stop, so I came here asking for advice.

Third, the prayer thing is a personal issue with me, which, out of everything upsets me the most and there is the least amount I can do about it besides complain. Prayer is one thing and it will never stop. Sure, do it, have a great time doing it, but there is a time and a place. The place is NOT in front of the entire office with customers in there and the time is NOT the busiest hour of the day. I've asked her to relocate and talk to God in the kitchen where no one can see her. I'm not the ONLY one it bothers. In fact, I have had several customers complain to me about how uncomfortable it makes them feel.

It doesn't matter though. I have to stop everything I'm doing so she can talk to God, and then I have to spend 20 minutes picking up the slack. I have to appologize to customers and benefactors when they are embaressed because of her behavior and I have to listen to THEM tell me that she needs to take it somewhere else, as if I don't know that! I feel personally embaressed on behalf of the company for how her behavior portrays us, and while some people don't care, or even think it's cute, there is still a good chunk of us in the "mormon capitol", mormons included, that it really bothers.

I have to respect her beliefs that she parades in front of me with so much pride while she has little but loathing for me, and she doesn't even KNOW what I believe besides the fact that it's nothing in relation to her or her religion. She does nothing but disrespect me. Sure, this is a "freedom of religion" country, but the more I research about her behavior the more I am learning I don't have a leg to stand on because I'm NOT religious. So I'm going to do the only thing I can do, sit there and take it. That doesn't mean I have to be happy, and it doesn't mean that I have to like it.

If prayer shouldn't be tolerated in public schools, why the hell should I tolerat it openly in my place of employment? I wouldn't care if she'd do it somewhere that people didn't have to watch her, but she won't. As of right now, she's praying on a stage and loving every second of it.

--Sarah--

Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.


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DelphicRaven wrote: In

DelphicRaven wrote:

In fact, I have had several customers complain to me about how uncomfortable it makes them feel.

It doesn't matter though. I have to stop everything I'm doing so she can talk to God, and then I have to spend 20 minutes picking up the slack. I have to appologize to customers and benefactors when they are embaressed because of her behavior and I have to listen to THEM tell me that she needs to take it somewhere else, as if I don't know that! I feel personally embaressed on behalf of the company for how her behavior portrays us, and while some people don't care, or even think it's cute, there is still a good chunk of us in the "mormon capitol", mormons included, that it really bothers.

Right there!  Write down what the customers said, who said it and when they said it.  When you have a good-sized list, you can take it to management.   When it affects business and the bottom line, management will probably listen.

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DelphicRaven wrote: Aside

DelphicRaven wrote:
Aside from that she prays openly at her desk before she eats. That wouldn't be a problem if she wasn't the receptionist, and the first person people see when they walk into our building. She doesn't care who's around, but she just blatently does it.

I agree. I wouldn't want to have to put up with this either. I'm atheist and this would drive me nuts.

But, after all, it is her lunchtime. And as long as she's not using foul language or screaming Jesus' name, then I think you just need to grin and bear it.

What if instead of being a devout Mormon praying aloud she was a lesbian talking to her lesbian lover on her cell phone during lunch time? Is that appropriate? Is a complaint to management justified?

Or what if she's an atheist and during lunch she reads an atheist magazine? You can bet that some people would raise an eyebrow to that. Should she be asked to keep her magazine out of sight of the customers?

It's difficult to determine what's appropriate and what inappropriate when it comes to behavior that some find offensive. But we all get offended almost everyday by something. In a diverse and free society I think a lot of the time we just need to learn to live with it.

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