How weird am I?

Brion
Brion's picture
Posts: 86
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
How weird am I?

To believe in Reincarnation?  Even as an Atheist I still can't believe that once I die I'm done.  I don't think that my 'soul' will become something else. I just think after I die  I'll just start over, brand new. New soul, new look. New position of religion?(scary thought)  Does that make any sense? Does it make me any less of an Atheist?

 

 

I apologize if that makes no sense at all....I know what I want to say in my head but can't actually say(type) it. 

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a religion, and he'll starve to death praying for fish." - Anonymous
"If God doesn't like the way I live, let him tell me, not you." -Anonymous


Andyy
Andyy's picture
Posts: 182
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Yeah you're a little weird

Yeah you're a little weird Laughing It doesn't make you less of an atheist if you still don't believe in a god. I'm assuming you believe reincarnation is a natural process?

It may mean you're a bit less of a rational thinker though if you believe it without any evidence...


Krehlic
Krehlic's picture
Posts: 237
Joined: 2006-12-29
User is offlineOffline
Yes.

Yes.

Sorry, it's true.

You are wierd. 


Kemono
Posts: 137
Joined: 2006-08-13
User is offlineOffline
Brion wrote: I just think

Brion wrote:

I just think after I die I'll just start over, brand new. New soul, new look.

As that new person will not remember being you, and is not identical to you, in what sense will he be you?


ispeakmetal
ispeakmetal's picture
Posts: 67
Joined: 2007-05-15
User is offlineOffline
I would apply some

I would apply some reasoning skills to your belief in reincarnation if I were you. What is a soul? How is a soul any different from any other supernatural entity? What evidence do you have of reincarnation or souls?

And yeah, you are pretty strange for believing that. Smiling


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
I think it's healthy to

I think it's healthy to entertain all kinds of ideas, as long as you have the faculties to distinguish what constitutes evidence and what doesn't. When I die, if consciousness really is a product of biological processes exclusively, the simple answer is that the dynamic that is me will end. It's not necessarily the correct answer, but it's the supported answer.
I used to dabble in astral projection/sleep paralysis/lucid dreaming (however you want to regard it), and it was a fascinating and frightening experience. Did it prove anything? No -- it wasn't a controlled experiment. But it was cool. Science is how we can communicate well founded concepts consistently to one another, but we shouldn't lose our gusto for the subjective experience, in spite of its substantial margin of error.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
You are right. This doesn't

You are right. This doesn't make sense. If you are a "tabula rasa" at the beginning of every life with zero connection (spiritually or physically) to the previous life, then how are you reincarnated?

I know Hume very systematically destroys any sense of objective causality, but he allows individual, subjective causality. For instance, there is no real way to be certain that two billiard balls will interact the same way even if the situation is exactly the same both times. Now, for scientific purposes, we assume they will because our experience dictates as such, but there is no promise of that.

So, I am having difficulty finding even a subjective causal link between the individual you are now and the "tabula rasa" that comes after you. Why aren't you being reincarnated while you are alive? Based on your criteria, who is to say that everyone on the planet is you reincarnated in some way. If you are completely distinct, then wouldn't temporal restrictions also cease?

It all leads to a very disconcerting end. I am not worried about your label so much as I am worried about you remaining a focused, cognitive entity. If you follow what you are suggesting to its bitter end, your mind will become a plentiful diaspora.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
I wouldn't say you are

I wouldn't say you are "weird" but it is an irrational belief.


Brion
Brion's picture
Posts: 86
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
Nero wrote: You are right.

Nero wrote:
You are right. This doesn't make sense. If you are a "tabula rasa" at the beginning of every life with zero connection (spiritually or physically) to the previous life, then how are you reincarnated?

 

Again, I know what I want to say in my head, I just can't actually say it....but I'll try.


    I guess what I mean is that  when I die I will have new life, completely new.  I will have no previous thoughts about my 'previous life'. Technically I don't think this would be the dictionary term for reincarnation, I just don't know what to call it. I'll just be born again?

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a religion, and he'll starve to death praying for fish." - Anonymous
"If God doesn't like the way I live, let him tell me, not you." -Anonymous


22jesus22
22jesus22's picture
Posts: 208
Joined: 2006-12-18
User is offlineOffline
What exactly is the point of

What exactly is the point of this though?  Whats the difference between being "born again" with no knowledge of your previous life, and simply dying and thats it?  Either way you don't know whats happened to you.  In both cases you, as in the you that you are now, is completely over.  I don't understand how one way comforts you more then the other.


Nero
Rational VIP!
Nero's picture
Posts: 1142
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Even if I change the word to

Even if I change the word to 'renaissance' instead of 'reincarnation,' this still makes no sense. I considered defining existence and discussing how we are using existence in this thread. It primarily means to be and to continue. That does not really serve us here. In fact, as we have no word to discuss, it is hard to find the ideation to which such a word would be attached.

If you cannot put this belief into words, it is probably not being formed in your left brain, your logic center. This sounds like a feeling or a passion, which is right brain activity. You need to act as Descartes suggests. "Remove the stubor vapors of the black bile," and consider this matter dispassionately. If you do so, you will find the words to express yourself.

Bonne chance!

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
22jesus22 wrote: What

22jesus22 wrote:
What exactly is the point of this though? Whats the difference between being "born again" with no knowledge of your previous life, and simply dying and thats it? Either way you don't know whats happened to you. In both cases you, as in the you that you are now, is completely over. I don't understand how one way comforts you more then the other.

Very well said, my sentiments exactly! 


AbandonMyPeace
Posts: 324
Joined: 2007-03-15
User is offlineOffline
magilum wrote: sleep

magilum wrote:
sleep paralysis

 

I was under the impression that sleep paralysis was an actual medical condition. Where you are somewhere between awake and asleep and its really hard to breathe and you cant move. I experience this at least once a week. Maybe I should have done more research on it. Explain it me me a bit if you dont mind Magilum.

 

Anyway back on topic. Of all the possibilities we have been presented for what the after life could be reincarnation is by far my favorite possibility lol. I cant say I believe it to be true but I do like the thought of it. Wink


magilum
Posts: 2410
Joined: 2007-03-07
User is offlineOffline
AbandonMyPeace wrote: I

AbandonMyPeace wrote:
I was under the impression that sleep paralysis was an actual medical condition. Where you are somewhere between awake and asleep and its really hard to breathe and you cant move. I experience this at least once a week. Maybe I should have done more research on it. Explain it me me a bit if you dont mind Magilum.

 

Don't ask me about the physiology behind it in detail. The explanation I've gotten is that during normal sleep the body will become paralyzed to prevent you hurting yourself while dreaming, etc. Under certain circumstances, you can regain consciousness while still in this state of paralysis. This can be accompanied by a rushing sound, or the feeling that there is a "presence" in the room with you. I haven't heard of or experienced problems breathing in this state, but I've heard some people feel a pressure on their chest. I've read speculation that many "ghost" experiences, which match the description closely, can be attributed to this phenomena.

 

I became interested in it while reading books on remote viewing and out of body experiences. I used the methods prescribed to change (ruin) my sleep routine, and gain consciousness during sleep paralysis. During one experience I had the definite feeling that "I" was an object the size of a tennis ball, traveling to and fro within my body. Another time, I seemed to be flying through the woods, looking down at a dilapidated cabin that seemed to be sinking into its foundation. It was an interesting experiment, but I had no way of testing these experiences: i.e. "viewing" a set place and gathering proprietary information. If you're willing to stay in the terrifying experience of sleep paralysis, you can have some really interesting visions/hallucinations.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Actually, brion might be on

Actually, brion might be on to something, its just that he cannot put it into words. He is thinking an obscure little quantum theory called consciousness dominance, which states that, well, consciousness is the dominant force in the nature of information (the foundation of existence), and therefore conscious observers must always exist for the universe to exist.

More on it in this thread here:

In the Matter/Information Conjecture (the link above) I wrote:

e concept of sentience presupposes the concept of information. This is reasonable enough. Sentience is merely a higher form of information processing, or computation. Think of God, a maximally intelligent entity, as maximally sentient. For this a tremendous amount of computational power would be required. The information gradient which feeds computation is based on thermal inequality, or the transfer of energy packets between molecules. These energy packets contain data, which then becomes information when a conscious entity assigns meaning to it. In quantum computing this is called "It from bit" which says the universe exists when it has the capacity to observe itself. This does not mean that there are conscious entities reflecting on the universe, but rather that the universe now contains data, which is stored, ultimately in the fundamental particles of it's composition. In humans this information is shuttled between firing neurons by calcium, magnesium and potassium ions, which create an electrochemical voltage gradient inequality, holding the information. In a computer it is created by electrical pulses representing one of two choices at the atomic level traveling between silicon imprinted circuits, in a quantum computer it is stored as six states known as superpositions.

We can therefore conclude that data is expressed through inequalities in energy, and to that end, a near-infinite level of information resounds throughout the universe. An atom is essentially an organized packet of energy, a photon is the same, except that it is a massless wave. The fantastic variety of ways for energy inequalities to be expressed is born out in the existence of different atoms and different molecular structures into which they might array themselves, in addition, of course, to the different wavelengths for electromagnetic radiation in the photon packet to be expressed. For instance, the information in DNA is stored as four bases transcribed via codon grouping into amino acids, thus dictating the order of proteins.

Data is created by inequalities in energy, and the exchange of these inequalities by grouping organized packets of this energy together. The packets of energy are organized in such a way that they are defined entities, which, of course, is the "physicalness" which we were trying to understand earlier.

There can be no doubt in your mind now. Whichever way this information is expressed, there is no doubt that it is fed by matter, physical substance which makes up the universe. The universe then, can be viewed as a stream of data fed by changes in energy, conscious entities in this universe can perceive small chinks of this data as information.

Due to the nature of the energy gradient, there is theoretically, infinite conscious experience in the universe, with the flow of ideas never ceasing, except when it comes the day that the universe reaches maximal entropy, but fear not, for new universes, according to hyperinflation, are constantly being born for all eternity.

The logical deduction of that is exactly how he put it. When you die, you start over as a new conscious observer (except, obviously, that "you" are no longer "you". "You" are gone. It's hard to word).

But to understand the consciousness theory behind it, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDqaMFHGEZ8

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


AbandonMyPeace
Posts: 324
Joined: 2007-03-15
User is offlineOffline
magilum

magilum wrote:

AbandonMyPeace wrote:
I was under the impression that sleep paralysis was an actual medical condition. Where you are somewhere between awake and asleep and its really hard to breathe and you cant move. I experience this at least once a week. Maybe I should have done more research on it. Explain it me me a bit if you dont mind Magilum.

 

Don't ask me about the physiology behind it in detail. The explanation I've gotten is that during normal sleep the body will become paralyzed to prevent you hurting yourself while dreaming, etc. Under certain circumstances, you can regain consciousness while still in this state of paralysis. This can be accompanied by a rushing sound, or the feeling that there is a "presence" in the room with you. I haven't heard of or experienced problems breathing in this state, but I've heard some people feel a pressure on their chest. I've read speculation that many "ghost" experiences, which match the description closely, can be attributed to this phenomena.

 

I became interested in it while reading books on remote viewing and out of body experiences. I used the methods prescribed to change (ruin) my sleep routine, and gain consciousness during sleep paralysis. During one experience I had the definite feeling that "I" was an object the size of a tennis ball, traveling to and fro within my body. Another time, I seemed to be flying through the woods, looking down at a dilapidated cabin that seemed to be sinking into its foundation. It was an interesting experiment, but I had no way of testing these experiences: i.e. "viewing" a set place and gathering proprietary information. If you're willing to stay in the terrifying experience of sleep paralysis, you can have some really interesting visions/hallucinations.

 

Thanks man. I guess I just misunderstood your first post. I was thinking you were saying it was more of a supernatural thing. Guess I need to pay better attention to what people are saying lol.

 

Like I said I experience this about once a week. Very rarely do I hallucinate but it does happen sometimes. Mostly its the obvious of not being able to move and of course breathing is difficult for me when it happens. I would like to say a weightless feeling but at the same time you cant move at all. If that makes any sense.

The first few times it happened I had convinced myself it was some sort of supernatural occurance. I eventually learned of what it actually is called.

Sorry I misunderstood your post. Tongue out

I forgot to add. Sometimes I try to keep myself calm and try to enjoy it. Sort of go with the flow of things. Its a hard thing to do when you cant move lol and you feel like someone is staring at you. Its damn creepy though lol especially when you dont expect it. Sometimes I know whats going on and can somewhat remain calm. But if its been a few weeks since it has happened and then it happens then its incredibly hard to stay calm. Laughing

 


Brion
Brion's picture
Posts: 86
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:

Actually, brion might be on to something, its just that he cannot put it into words. He is thinking an obscure little quantum theory called consciousness dominance, which states that, well, consciousness is the dominant force in the nature of information (the foundation of existence), and therefore conscious observers must always exist for the universe to exist.

More on it in this thread here:

In the Matter/Information Conjecture (the link above) I wrote:

e concept of sentience presupposes the concept of information. This is reasonable enough. Sentience is merely a higher form of information processing, or computation. Think of God, a maximally intelligent entity, as maximally sentient. For this a tremendous amount of computational power would be required. The information gradient which feeds computation is based on thermal inequality, or the transfer of energy packets between molecules. These energy packets contain data, which then becomes information when a conscious entity assigns meaning to it. In quantum computing this is called "It from bit" which says the universe exists when it has the capacity to observe itself. This does not mean that there are conscious entities reflecting on the universe, but rather that the universe now contains data, which is stored, ultimately in the fundamental particles of it's composition. In humans this information is shuttled between firing neurons by calcium, magnesium and potassium ions, which create an electrochemical voltage gradient inequality, holding the information. In a computer it is created by electrical pulses representing one of two choices at the atomic level traveling between silicon imprinted circuits, in a quantum computer it is stored as six states known as superpositions.

We can therefore conclude that data is expressed through inequalities in energy, and to that end, a near-infinite level of information resounds throughout the universe. An atom is essentially an organized packet of energy, a photon is the same, except that it is a massless wave. The fantastic variety of ways for energy inequalities to be expressed is born out in the existence of different atoms and different molecular structures into which they might array themselves, in addition, of course, to the different wavelengths for electromagnetic radiation in the photon packet to be expressed. For instance, the information in DNA is stored as four bases transcribed via codon grouping into amino acids, thus dictating the order of proteins.

Data is created by inequalities in energy, and the exchange of these inequalities by grouping organized packets of this energy together. The packets of energy are organized in such a way that they are defined entities, which, of course, is the "physicalness" which we were trying to understand earlier.

There can be no doubt in your mind now. Whichever way this information is expressed, there is no doubt that it is fed by matter, physical substance which makes up the universe. The universe then, can be viewed as a stream of data fed by changes in energy, conscious entities in this universe can perceive small chinks of this data as information.

Due to the nature of the energy gradient, there is theoretically, infinite conscious experience in the universe, with the flow of ideas never ceasing, except when it comes the day that the universe reaches maximal entropy, but fear not, for new universes, according to hyperinflation, are constantly being born for all eternity.

The logical deduction of that is exactly how he put it. When you die, you start over as a new conscious observer (except, obviously, that "you" are no longer "you". "You" are gone. It's hard to word).

But to understand the consciousness theory behind it, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDqaMFHGEZ8

 

*Shifty eyes* Uhh...yeah, that's exactly what I meant! Thanks for stealing my words!! Tongue out

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a religion, and he'll starve to death praying for fish." - Anonymous
"If God doesn't like the way I live, let him tell me, not you." -Anonymous