"The Sex"

HC Grindon
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"The Sex"

One of the many criticisms I have of religion is the influence it has had on society's perception of "The Sex".  The way society judges and/or condemns who you have sex with, when you have sex, sexual entertainment, nudity on tv, nudity in movies, and "wardrobe malfunctions" during half-time shows of the Super Bowl, all seem rooted in the religious vilification of sex as "sinful".

It's hard to discuss the effects of sexuality on society with theists because 99% of the time all you can get out of them is puritanical nonsense.  So, at the risk of being labeled an atheist perve, I thought I'd throw out some sexually oriented topics and get the non-theist take on how each affects our society, if at all:

1. Pre-marital sex.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing?  Remove STD's from the equation.

3. Prostitution.

4. Pornography.

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

7. Risque advertising.

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

10. Virginity, does it matter?

Talk amongst yourselves.  :^)

-HCG


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Well, to begin with, I

Well, to begin with, I think the question is even more loaded than most people think. Not only are questions of sexual ethics rooted in religion, they are also central to many aspects of feminism, which has just about as many variations as religion! Then, when you start to consider that many feminists are also religious... wow... Can you think of a subject that is more difficult to look at objectively? I can't.

Anyway, for the record, here's what I think personally about all those things you asked. I like to think that there's some logic to my beliefs, but I'd hardly say that my beliefs are representative of every atheist.

1. Pre-marital sex. Sure. In fact, I think it's a great idea. Would you want to get married to someone and then find out that their sexual tastes were completely different than yours, or that you were just not physically compatible? Furthermore, who said that the end goal of a relationship is "supposed to be marriage"? Without religious dogma, there's no reason to assume that you can't have a very happy relationship that doesn't lead to marriage, or kids, or any of the other stuff we're "supposed to do."

2. Promiscuity. Well, STDs are one of the main reasons why promiscuity is risky, so it's hard to take them out of the equation. On the other hand, with proper treatment, most of them aren't the worst thing that can happen in your life, so it's not like your life ends if you get an STD (literally, or figuratively). Also, what exactly is promiscuity? If you mean cheating, that's probably a bad idea. If you mean being single and having multiple partners, the worst thing you risk is AIDS, and if you give that to other people, I'd say you're a pretty nasty person. If you get tested regularly, practice safe sex, and don't lie about your habits, I don't think there's anything particularly bad about it. As with most things, I think moderation is probably a good idea.

3. Prostitution. Here's one that even feminists can't agree on. Many say it's exploitive of women, and others say that outlawing it is oppressive to women. Personally, I think there is nothing inherently wrong with exchanging money for sex, and if it was legal, I can't say I wouldn't hit a brothel in particularly dry dating seasons, but then I've never been a woman, so I can't say what it does to a woman psychologically. I suspect it's like so many other things -- individuals differ. Probably some women can do it and feel empowered, and others feel cheapened as a person. Maybe that stems from religion, maybe not.

4. Pornography. I'm sure there's some really exploitive porn out there, but the simple fact is, people like looking at other people having sex. Mostly men, but there are plenty of women who dig it, too. I can't think of anything wrong with it, and in fact, I think it's probably fairly healthy to indulge in a little creative fantasizing from time to time. There are also plenty of people who get off on being seen, so it's a good way for the exhibitionists of the world to get their jollies.

5. Age of consent. I don't know at what age people are magically old enough to have sex. I do know it changes as cultures change. Realistically, I think it varies from person to person, but based on what our culture is like now, I can't imagine too many people under the age of 16 who are capable of making a "grown up" decision. More likely, most people are probably 17 or 18 before they are ready. Also, age difference has a lot to do with it. A 15 year old and a 16 year old are on a level playing field, but a 17 year old and a 45 year old are not. Ideally, I think for most people, they should wait until they are 18 or 19.

6. Nudity does not warp children's minds. Nor does sex. Pre-pubescent children do not have sexual thoughts, so other than vague curiosity, they don't have any interest in porn. When they're old enough to want to have sex, they're old enough to see it. Calm, factual explanations to questions will leave children with an educated understanding of what they're seeing. I can't imagine why this is anything but healthy.

7. Risque advertising works! What could possibly be wrong with it?

8. Homosexuality is perfectly natural. We see it in so many other animals, why would it be somehow wrong in humans?

9. Topless bars, etc... Refer back to my answers on porn and prostitution.

10. Virginity doesn't mean a damn thing, as far as I can tell. For me, I'd much rather have a partner with some experience.

 

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Regarding premarital sex: 

Regarding premarital sex:  Would you buy a car if you hadn't done a test drive?

Regarding age of consent:  I believe that depends totally on the individual.

Regarding promiscuity:  I don't think that sleeping with someone different every night for a year is necessarily an emotionally healthy thing, but if STDs and pregnancy are out of the equation, if two people are willing, why not?  I couldn't do it, but if someone else wants to, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Regarding homosexuality:  Again, it's perfectly natural.  No big deal.

Regarding virginity:  Highly overrated.  (I admit that I do not understand why sleeping with a virgin would be a goal.)

Regarding nudity/sex on TV and in movies:  Depends on how it portrayed.

Regarding pornography:  For adults, no big deal.  I'm not impressed by it, but I know people that think it's fun.  No big deal as long as it's consenting adults making the porn.

Regarding risque advertising:  Sex definitely sells.  However, I think the products/advertising should not be aimed at minors.

Regarding prostitution:  If a person chooses to go into that line of work (think Nevada and the Mustang Ranch), what's the big deal? 

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I think that all of them are

I think that all of them are fine, approached properly that is.
Safe promiscuity, regulated prostitution...
With age of consent, I like Canada's idea:
14-17 it's legal with people within 5 year gap.
After 18 you're allowed to go with anyone.


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HC Grindon wrote: 1.

HC Grindon wrote:

1. Pre-marital sex.

Love it.  I don't think this as a problem, I think it helps marriages because you know before hand if someone is sexually compatable

Quote:
2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing?  Remove STD's from the equation.
In general no, but if in a commited relationship, it's mean and hurtful to be promiscuous.  If both sides know and are fine with it, go for it.

Quote:
3. Prostitution. 
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this.  There are a lot of people out there who have a hard time finding a partner, due to physical/social/phycological reasons and there is a need for this service.  It should be regulated to ensure the health of both parties though.

Quote:
4. Pornography. 
Same as prostitution except the whole regulated for health reasons part, not needed. 

Quote:
5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?
I like the age of consent now because it attempts to discourage child abuse.  I don't like the age of consent now because when I was 16 I had a 22 year old boyfriend, and that just made me mad that he could go to jail.  Now I look back and I was too young!

Quote:
6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?
I personally think it's used to often sometimes.  I'm ok with it as long as we have those ratings so we know before hand

Quote:
7. Risque advertising.
This I don't like.  If I'm going to buy something, it's because I like the product, not the nipples I saw on the commercials

Quote:
8. Homosexuality/lesbianism
Love it!

Quote:
9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars
I dont' go to them but I have no problem with someone else going.

Quote:
10. Virginity, does it matter?
It's an individual choice.  I personally won't sleep with a virgin ever again. They are WAY to quick on the draw (men) and way too clingy(women)


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HCG, you pervy you!

HCG, you pervy you!

1. Pre-marital sex.

Um, yeah. What about it. Everyone can swear up and down that sex isn't an important part of a relationship, and they are wrong. You have to be sexually compatible and it would be better to know that before you get married than after.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

I don't think STDs should be removed from the equation. They are too integral with sex in this day and age. Proper protection is a must. I've read that promiscuity hurts girls (not sure about the boys) but that could also be a gender issue, and not a sex issue. Though some may argue its the same thing.

While I think sex should be really special, I'm not against someone trying to rack up the 'points', if you will. As long as they do it honestly and carefully.

3. Prostitution.

Oldest occupation in the book. Should be regulated though (see above).

4. Pornography.

Where?! Pornography is great fun. It's a good way to have foreplay, to explore yourself and your partner. Again, studies have shown that people who watch too much porn tend to be dissatisfied with their sex life, but really, how much porn is too much?

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

I'm not quite sure what to say on this one. Maturity differs with age. I suppose its really the consent part that matters.

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

Its disensitizing (sp). I don't think it necessarily warps children's minds, because kids shouldn't be watching R rated movies. But it sells, and that's really all that matters to the advertisers.

7. Risque advertising.

See above. $$$$

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

Ho hum. What of it?

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

While I'd personally rather eat broken glass than see some tool beefcake all greased up and dancing around with his weinie in a banana boat thong bikini (that rhymed!), I say, take it all off!!!

10. Virginity, does it matter?

I don't know how to say this without sounding utterly crude. Virginity is nice... sex is nicer? No, seriously, this is the biggest guilt trip laid on a girl (no pun intended). Boys get to galavant around but if a girl loses her virginity, she's a whore. Not really very fair, is it?

 I want to stress that I mean all of the above pertaining to adults only, with full consent!!!!

Oh wait, you said you wanted theists to answer. Sorry. Smiling

[Edited to keep the conservatives from hurting me] 

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pariahjane wrote:   Oh

pariahjane wrote:

 

Oh wait, you said you wanted theists to answer. Sorry. Smiling

Actually he said he wanted non-theists to answer so I think your cool.


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1. Pre-marital sex. Yes,

1. Pre-marital sex.

Yes, please!

Sex is an essential part of a healthy and happy relationship. I'm gonna want to figure out if you're good at it BEFORE I marry you. 

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

Being promiscuous OUTSIDE of a serious monogamous relationship can be a good way to get to know what you do and don't want in a partner and also to explore and embrace your own sexuality. 

3. Prostitution.

Not my cup of tea, but if two consenting adults want to trade sex for money, then  who am I to tell them no? 

4. Pornography.

Great to 'try out' fantasies, help you masterbate when your partners at work.

It can also become destructive, I know guys who are 'addicted' to porn, and one guy who would sooner view ladies on the internet than go out and find a real lady.

So......fun unless you're dependant. 

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

I like Canada's way of doing things. I do think that it should be over 13/14 at the earliest. No kid stuff.(I mean kids play 'doctor' with other kids, but I classify that as natural curiosity more than sexual urges) 

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

 Nope.

7. Risque advertising.

Sex sells. We like sex, we like looking at good looking people having sex, or looking like they want to have sex with us. 

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

Whatever works for you, I'm not going to judge what gets someone else off.

Also, natural, normal and healthy people can(and are) be gay people. I hate the anti-gay movements in the USA. 

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

Good for a night out. 

10. Virginity, does it matter?

Not in the slightest. It only matters to religious people who want to save it for something.

 

 

 

 

By the way HCG, great avatar, great sig. Smiling


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Great question! 1.

Great question!

1. Pre-marital sex - Required for any real possibiity of a happy marriage later.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation. - I think that promiscuity is ultimately unsatisfying to people and I think that is because it is in our nature to want to seek a semi-permanent mate. Therefore, a person who goes on and on being promiscuous and never landing in a relationship is a) unhappy and b) struggling with other issues that are preventing him/her from entering a relationship. So promiscuity is bad psychologically but morally neutral.

3. Prostitution. - Pretty damaging psychologically. The emotional component of sex is important for most women, so tearing the two apart most of the time can leave a lot of difficulty in feeling and responding normally when she's having "real" sex. Plus, prostitution can't help but give her a very low opinion of men and make it hard to feel she can trust them. Lastly, there is a blow to the self-esteem, because she's going to feel that all she has to offer is sex and that that is all that men, any men, want from her. Morally, she is only hurting herself, so it's her biz. The john, however, might want to question whether he should be participating in something so damaging to the woman.

4. Pornography. - Same difficulties as prostitution.

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky? - Our bodies know. Sexual maturity, whenever that happens. However, a very important consideration is that the hanky panky must not be occuring between kids who are too far apart in age. I'd say a one year difference in the first year, add a year for every year after that.

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds? - No, if it is infrequent. However, having sexy stuff on TV all the time creates an inappropriate atmosphere in the home where kids might get the idea that sex is not the private and intimate thing that it is. This could probably lead to some damaging behaviour in later life, like excessive promiscuity.

7. Risque advertising. - Ads aren't explicit enough to cause a problem. The soft-core sex in ads will go right over the heads of any kids who aren't old enough to be thinking about sex anyway.

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism - All good.

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars - Fun for the whole family. Possibly demeaning for the girls working there, though.

10. Virginity, does it matter? - Sure, to the virgin. She's going to want a guy that she can trust to be considerate. He's going to want a girl that will hold still long enough.

 

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mindspread

*prints it off and leaves it where his wife can find it* Tongue out

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HC Grindon wrote: 1.

HC Grindon wrote:

1. Pre-marital sex.

Agree for reasons already stated above.

HC Grindon wrote:
2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

Only if it's affecting the person in a negative way.

Cheating is wrong. It's the lying part I resent the most. I resent how if you are friends or aquantied with people who are cheating they expect you to lie for them or to keep quiet about their wrong-doings. Way to make me feel shitty about my ethics.

HC Grindon wrote:
3. Prostitution.

Agree for reasons already stated above.

Yeah, can you imagine that was the only negotiating tool women had for centuries? That fucken sucks. I think some men hate that women have this power. When there are truely equal rights, then maybe this wouldn't have to be done so often or/and as a last resort in my ideal.

My advice: Be a business person about it. Learn how to do that with education. Go to the library to find that education. Good Luck!

HC Grindon wrote:
4. Pornography.

Agree with opinions already stated above.

I wonder how much more stressful it would be if we didn't have it. I can see a lot of people being more agressive then need be. I think we might need it.

HC Grindon wrote:
5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

Well, I guess for most folks it does happen around 13 and 14. But I still feel uncomfortable with that. I know they are doing it but I really don't want to know about it, you know? It's okay if they do it safely and keep it to themselves if they know me.

And I don't want to see an 18 year old with a 13 year old. In my dictatorship it would be that 18 is the age of consent for adults to have sex only with other adults who are 18 and/or over. Young people will be ready when they decide it is.

But in the mean time don't impose on them (don't pressure them or tell them it's wrong or any of that gay crap, etc..) and DO NOT ABUSE them. Priests, I cannot stress this enough to you especially.

Give them a break. Give them their needed time to mature on their own. They deserve it.

HC Grindon wrote:
6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

Maybe. I think one of the reasons why humans have developed a strong avertion to gore was for a stragegy of many that helped preserve ethics. I don't know. But ultimatly, it depends on the kid. Be a responsible parent and guide them apporpriatly (pay attention to what they are watching).

When filpping through channels, it can be a rollercoaster ride of emotional repsonses. From sex (hmmm?), to death (cry), to basketball (excitment), to an evangelist preacher (yikes), to the shopping channel (hrmmm...), to detailed brain surgery using scary tools (holy shit), to Robot Chicken (thank goodness for laughter!), to exploring underwater sealife (wow)... for like 75 channels has got to be doing something.

HC Grindon wrote:
7. Risque advertising.

Yeah, can you believe it still works? Well, it's good for those who can't afford real porn and when you don't have a better idea.

HC Grindon wrote:
8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

Who cares?

This is the biggest distraction from addressing real politics and issues in the US. That and Anna Nicole. And American Idol. I resent it for that reason but more importantly for making peopl, especially young people, feel bad about themselves for no good reason. That's mean. They are so undeserving of all that scorn. They're kids. Leave them alone.

HC Grindon wrote:
9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

Like I said, be a business person about it. Save and invest your money. Put some away for retirement. Enjoy sharing some of it. Good Luck!

HC Grindon wrote:
10. Virginity, does it matter?

Over fucken rated IMHO. They totally suck in the sack! They have so little experience! Sticking out tongue


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Thanks for all the

Thanks for all the responses.  It's nice to see what other like-minded folks have to say on these touchy (pardon the pun) and often hysteria-generating topics.

Guess I should throw in my own thoughts as well:

1. Pre-marital sex.

Pretty much what everyone else has said.  Religious dogma has seriously undermined and discounted the importance of sexual compatiblity in marriage.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing?  Remove STD's from the equation.

I probably should have phrased this one better, more like "All things being equal (no STDs, risk of pregnancy, deception, etc.), is being promiscuous a bad thing?", i.e. are words like "slut" justified?  I have no problem with someone sleeping around as long as no one is getting hurt or deceived. 

3. Prostitution.

I have no problem with it and believe it should be legal.  I worked with a guy from Iran who said that before the Islamic revolution, prostitution was legal and regulated in Iran.  Rape was virtually non-existant.  After the sexual repression of the revolution took hold, guess what?  Rape sky-rocketed.  I never bothered to verify all of this but this guy gave me no reason to think he was lying (he was against prostitution).  True or not, I believe if properly regulated, prostitution should be legal.

4. Pornography.

Nothing wrong with porn.  I got bored with it a long time ago though.  I think the religious & feminist crowds have blown (pardon yet another pun) the cons of porn wayyy out of proportion.

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

This is a tough one, but if society must legislate the age of consent, I think Canada has got it right.  Personally, I think any properly informed teen should be able to make the decision for themselves. 

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

Another ridiculous assertion made by theists and hysterical, over-protective parents alike.  I was exposed to plenty of this growing up and it's not like it caused me to do anything warped like discussing sex with total stran....uh...movin' on.  :^)

7. Risque advertising.

I brought this one up because, once again, theists and hysterical parents alike cry foul.  I see nothing wrong with it.  I'm not so dimwitted that I believe my choice of mediocre domestic beer is going to make me more attractive to PariahJane.  :^)

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

I'm not wired that way, but I have no problems with those who are.

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

Probably should have merged this with prostitution, same concept, same opinion.

10. Virginity, does it matter?

No.


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HC Grindon wrote: 1.

HC Grindon wrote:

1. Pre-marital sex.

The idea of marriage, monogomy, and life long commitment when it comes to the idea of "love" are notions that I find absent of logic. So pre-marital sex is not a term I find valid.  

Quote:
2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

Not at all. The only harm that comes from promiscuity is from the backlash of a society that despises it. Also, internal confusion of the mental and emotional variety come from training by a society that despises promiscuity.

We have created the idea of monogomay due to religious trappings. If our preconceived notions on the matter didn't exist we would see no reason whatsoever to condemn promiscuity or to demand monogomy or life long commitment when it comes to "love" 

Quote:
3. Prostitution.

We think it is wrong because that is what we have been taught. Many find it repulsive because of the idea that to sell your body you are cheapening your "worth". This cannot stand as an argument. There are plenty of occupations that encourage / require the sale of dignity, the image of our bodies, the use of our bodies etc that are considered "normal".

The assertion that a person has an inherent "worth" is pointless to begin with. Void of fear of how our society views us, we assign our own worth and I promote that our view of ourselves would be much more positive without such oppressive influence.  

Quote:
4. Pornography.

Same idea as prostitution.  

Quote:
5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

We have to protect children from harm without treating them like they are little helpless eggs that must be coddled until they're X years old. The idea that a person is not capable of making their own decisions based on age is tricky. I generally consider a person capable of making their own decisions when they decide that they want to.  

We have fear of this idea because they are almost assuredly going to make mistakes. However, I do not see mistakes as a bad thing. Even horrific mistakes that change our outlooks forever. It is just life, and fear of life is not a worthwhile approach to it.  

Quote:
6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

"warp childrens minds" is purely a function of the preconceived notions produced by our society. For a people that have never seen it necessary to be modest, nudity on TV would have no affect whatsoever.

In our society, however, a child who does not fear nudity would be seen as "warped" and would be treated as such. It is not the existance of nudity or the child that makes it wrong, it is a decision of society.  

Quote:
8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

I have no more of an opinion on homosexuality than I do on heterosexuality. I'm sure one could come up with reasons for both of them but I find the topic pretty irrelivant.  

Quote:
9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

Back to the topic of social perception. Obviously there is nothing wrong with seeing a breast or penis. Only a dolt would think that there is actually something wrong with the flesh itself.  

Quote:
   10. Virginity, does it matter?

Not remotely. Who could care. Sex is a biological function and we're hung up on it because that's how we're trained to behave.  


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By the way, I LOVE the Firefly avatar.


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HC Grindon wrote: 1.

HC Grindon wrote:

1. Pre-marital sex.

    Sex is a perfectually natural and fun experience that is a good workout and brings two people closer together.  Why is this even an issue? 

HC Grindon wrote:
2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

    Promiscuity is actually a good thing from an evolutionary standpoint.  It makes sure that the best genes are spread around more than the bad ones.  This is much more helpful of course for species that live in packs because then everyone helps to raise the young.  Humans just don't live in such a way anymore so it doesn't make sence for us to have kids with as many different people as possible.

    Looking at it from a pure sexual encounter perspective, what's wrong with it?  As long as your practicing safe sex in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STDs then who cares how many people you are sleeping with? 

HC Grindon wrote:
3. Prostitution.

    Why is it illegal to sell something that's free to give away?  I have yet to hear a good reason why prostitution should be illegal. 

HC Grindon wrote:
4. Pornography.

    What's wrong with admiring another human's body?  As long as you aren't exploiting children I don't see why there would be any problems here. 

HC Grindon wrote:
5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

    Why should there be a legal age?  Parents should be teaching their children how to make good smart decisions. This is a topic that should be taken on a case by case basis which is something that the government should really not have a hand in.

HC Grindon wrote:
6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

    I haven't read any studies on the effect of kids minds from seeing nudity/sex but I can't imagine that it would have a very negative affect if negative at all.  Again, it comes down to the parenting.  Nudity, Language, and Sex should all be allowed on every channel.  Leave it up to the parents to decide what their kids can watch, and when they are ready for explicit material.

HC Grindon wrote:
7. Risque advertising.

    What's the issue here?  I would say no advertising with explicit material in public (billboards, buildings), but beyond that (TV commercials, magazine ads), anything goes.

HC Grindon wrote:
8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

    Last I checked there was a genetic component to sexual orientation.  What's the difference between two consulting males/females and a conseting heterosexual couple? 

HC Grindon wrote:
9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

    Again, why would there be an issue here? 

HC Grindon wrote:
10. Virginity, does it matter?

    Go sleep with a virgin, and then with someone who has experience.  You tell me Eye-wink

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan


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Tilberian wrote: 10.

Tilberian wrote:

10. Virginity, does it matter? - Sure, to the virgin. She's going to want a guy that she can trust to be considerate. He's going to want a girl that will hold still long enough.

Ok, that's easily the funniest thing I've heard all week.

Kudos.  


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1. Pre-marital sex. I see


1. Pre-marital sex.

I see marriage as just a certficat anyway so it would be stupid for it not to be ok.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

I think it's entirely a personal thing. Each person is different when it comes to this question. 

 

3. Prostitution.

Same with #2.

4. Pornography.

According to Freud, looking at pornography would be a way to fulfil id impulses so no problem with looking at it, and as some have already mention there are exhibtionists who love making porn.

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

Depends on the person but i don't even think we should say "ok to start hanky panky". When ever the child wants to start is when its ok to start.

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

IMO it does not in anyway. Nudity espcially. Sex maybe is debateable

7. Risque advertising.

I think with this parents are projecting how 

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

 Competely natural some have even proposed that its a evolutionary way for population control.

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

yea same as 4

10. Virginity, does it matter?

Why should it matter?


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HC Grindon wrote: i.e. are

HC Grindon wrote:
i.e. are words like "slut" justified?

Being hateful is always just bieng hateful. Often times we feel like we are justified but it does not change the fact that we are using violent language. Calling someone who sleeps around a "slut" is the same as calling an environmentalist a "tree hugger". It is just a way to show that we think an activity is bad or that we disagree with it and that we think they are a lesser person for it.

 


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Susan wrote: Regarding

Susan wrote:
Regarding promiscuity: I don't think that sleeping with someone different every night for a year is necessarily an emotionally healthy thing

I agree, but only in so far as I agree that we are socially programed to believe that it is inappropriate and that we are doing something wrong. 

Quote:
Regarding nudity/sex on TV and in movies: Depends on how it portrayed.

How do you mean? Can you think of an example?

Good post. 


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Tilberian wrote: 3.

Tilberian wrote:

3. Prostitution. - Pretty damaging psychologically. The emotional component of sex is important for most women, so tearing the two apart most of the time can leave a lot of difficulty in feeling and responding normally when she's having "real" sex. Plus, prostitution can't help but give her a very low opinion of men and make it hard to feel she can trust them. Lastly, there is a blow to the self-esteem, because she's going to feel that all she has to offer is sex and that that is all that men, any men, want from her. Morally, she is only hurting herself, so it's her biz. The john, however, might want to question whether he should be participating in something so damaging to the woman.

I've been doing a lot of soul searching about the topic of morals, what makes us feel good and bad, and how much are these things influenced by society.

Using this topic as an example, I am curious if there is something "inherent" that would cause a prostitute to have low self esteem or feel that her "worth" is somehow lowered.  I just don't know that I buy it, yunno? I am highly suspicious that we are simply responding to what we are SUPPOSED to be feeling and what we actually feel never even has a chance to be felt.


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marcusfish wrote: Using

marcusfish wrote:

Using this topic as an example, I am curious if there is something "inherent" that would cause a prostitute to have low self esteem or feel that her "worth" is somehow lowered.  I just don't know that I buy it, yunno? I am highly suspicious that we are simply responding to what we are SUPPOSED to be feeling and what we actually feel never even has a chance to be felt.

 

I agree...very well put.

 

-HCG


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marcusfish wrote: Using

marcusfish wrote:

Using this topic as an example, I am curious if there is something "inherent" that would cause a prostitute to have low self esteem or feel that her "worth" is somehow lowered.  I just don't know that I buy it, yunno? I am highly suspicious that we are simply responding to what we are SUPPOSED to be feeling and what we actually feel never even has a chance to be felt.

IMHO I think that the self esteem issues are due to society's influence.  Society is even harder on it's sex workers then it's atheist.  Words like hooker, whore, tramp, sleazy, all dehumanize people who otherwise are normal members of society.  It's good money, expecially for a single mother who dropped out of school and can't get any work elsewhere, but it's hard to be proud of yourself and your work when society classifies you as nothing but a "dirty little whore".  It's difficult to find a movie or television show that doesn't cast prostitutes in a negative light.  The closest I think I've seen to a postive movie about a prostitute is Pretty Woman, and even that movie focused on getting out of the business.


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Arletta wrote: IMHO I

Arletta wrote:
IMHO I think that the self esteem issues are due to society's influence.  Society is even harder on it's sex workers then it's atheist.  Words like hooker, whore, tramp, sleazy, all dehumanize people who otherwise are normal members of society.  It's good money, expecially for a single mother who dropped out of school and can't get any work elsewhere, but it's hard to be proud of yourself and your work when society classifies you as nothing but a "dirty little whore". 

 

Excellent point.

 

Arletta wrote:
It's difficult to find a movie or television show that doesn't cast prostitutes in a negative light.  The closest I think I've seen to a postive movie about a prostitute is Pretty Woman, and even that movie focused on getting out of the business.

 

*WARNING - Shameless pimping of my all-time favorite TV show follows *

Rent the series "Firefly".  It takes place 500 years in the future, where being a "Companion" (Courtesan) is considered to be a highly respectable profession.  (Well, except to people like Mal... :^) )


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HC Grindon wrote: *WARNING

HC Grindon wrote:

*WARNING - Shameless pimping of my all-time favorite TV show follows *

Rent the series "Firefly".  It takes place 500 years in the future, where being a "Companion" (Courtesan) is considered to be a highly respectable profession.  (Well, except to people like Mal... :^) )

Added to my netflix!  I only found one 4-disc set, is that all there is?


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Arletta wrote: HC Grindon

Arletta wrote:
HC Grindon wrote:

*WARNING - Shameless pimping of my all-time favorite TV show follows *

Rent the series "Firefly".  It takes place 500 years in the future, where being a "Companion" (Courtesan) is considered to be a highly respectable profession.  (Well, except to people like Mal... :^) )

Added to my netflix!  I only found one 4-disc set, is that all there is?

It got cancelled in 2002 after only 11 episodes thanks to FOX's efforts to sabotage the show by airing the episodes out of order (they aired the two-hour pilot last), preempting the show with baseball, and a crappy marketing effort.

The fans did rally and got the movie "Serenity" made in 2005.  If you like Firefly, be sure to rent "Serenity" also.  The genre is Sci-Fi/Western, but most fans agree that the setting and plots had nothing to do with why they fell in love with the show.  It's the great characters and witty dialog that getcha. 

End of Firefly pimping.  :^)

-HCG


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Arletta wrote:

Arletta wrote:
Added to my netflix! I only found one 4-disc set, is that all there is?

Yes, it's a four disk set. Three or four episodes on each.

It's hokey and sentimental, but SO much fun.


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Arletta wrote:

Arletta wrote:
IMHO I think that the self esteem issues are due to society's influence. Society is even harder on it's sex workers then it's atheist. Words like hooker, whore, tramp, sleazy, all dehumanize people who otherwise are normal members of society. It's good money, expecially for a single mother who dropped out of school and can't get any work elsewhere, but it's hard to be proud of yourself and your work when society classifies you as nothing but a "dirty little whore". It's difficult to find a movie or television show that doesn't cast prostitutes in a negative light. The closest I think I've seen to a postive movie about a prostitute is Pretty Woman, and even that movie focused on getting out of the business.

I find that every day I identify more and more emotions and knee jerk reactions that I find wholely inappropriate. Most of them apply to sex in some way or another, which is interesting. I presume that's because we are such a sexually repressed people. I hope to be able to throw off the shackles of what current society considers moral but it's so difficult. 

Even knowing that my moral standards are created by cruel tyrants (government) and hateful phsycopaths (religious leaders) I still can't seem to shake some of them. I'll keep working at it. 


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HC Grindon wrote: It got

HC Grindon wrote:

It got cancelled in 2002 after only 11 episodes thanks to FOX's efforts to sabotage the show by airing the episodes out of order (they aired the two-hour pilot last), preempting the show with baseball, and a crappy marketing effort.

The fans did rally and got the movie "Serenity" made in 2005.  If you like Firefly, be sure to rent "Serenity" also.  The genre is Sci-Fi/Western, but most fans agree that the setting and plots had nothing to do with why they fell in love with the show.  It's the great characters and witty dialog that getcha. 

End of Firefly pimping.  :^)

-HCG

Oh man, that's what my boyfriend was talking about!  When the movie Serenity came out he told me about it and mentioned that it was from a show I had never heard of so I wasn't interested in seeing the movie and he had to go watch it without me.    Now I'm going to have to bow my head and admit that I've ordered the series from the very same movie based on someone else's recommendation.  I'll never hear the end of it.


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Ooh, I just looked at my

Ooh, I just looked at my queue on netflix and saw I'm recieving "The God Who Wasn't There" tomorrow!  Has nothing to do with this topic, but yeah.


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1. Pre-marital sex. Yes

1. Pre-marital sex.

Yes please! 

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing?  Remove STD's from the equation.

Not really, STDs are a major deterent and not a risk I'm willing to take. 

3. Prostitution.

Should be regulated. If it were, then we'd have less abusive pimps roaming the streets picking up runaways. 

4. Pornography.

I do love the pr0n! I know theists that love the porn! Porn is great and interesting. However, it is fortunate that it is regulated because I do not under any cirumstances condone child pornography, not even in tasteful art. 

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

16ish, it's relative to each person. Condoms should be made readily available and birth control should be mandatory. We need less people on this earth, not more. 

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

I think it's fine how it is. If there's a movie or show that shouldn't be viewed by children, I wouldn't watch it around them. When they are ready, I will explain it to them before they watch it. 

7. Risque advertising.

Sex sells, bottom line. Makes my job of graphic design much easier. 

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

Yah! More population control! Ellen Degeneres is my dream woman, I have a feeling we'd have the same taste in woman... So to speak. ~ZING~! But yeah, no problem with this. Those people are born that way.

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

I don't go to them, I see then as degrading to women. I know I had a different view on prostitution, but that's much more intimate. Topless bars and stripclubs are far more degrading in my eyes. But if someone wants to do it. Let them, that's their right to chose what they want to do. 

10. Virginity, does it matter?

Practice makes perfect. I'm torn on this, because a more experienced girl would rock my world, and a virgin girl is well, an empty vessel to teach new things to. Advantage: Experience. I'll go with that. Maybe I should test my hypothesis? Hmmmm... I guess it would be too subjective, eh?

YOU shut the fuck up! WE'LL save America!


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HC Grindon wrote:     7.

HC Grindon wrote:

 

 

7. Risque advertising.

I brought this one up because, once again, theists and hysterical parents alike cry foul. I see nothing wrong with it. I'm not so dimwitted that I believe my choice of mediocre domestic beer is going to make me more attractive to PariahJane. :^)

There you go again, making me blush.  :P 

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Icebergin wrote: 4.

Icebergin wrote:

4. Pornography.

I do love the pr0n! I know theists that love the porn! Porn is great and interesting. However, it is fortunate that it is regulated because I do not under any cirumstances condone child pornography, not even in tasteful art.

  I'm not quite sure what you're talking about when you refer to 'tasteful art'.  Are you referring to perhaps the photograpy of Sally Mann? This is a sensitive subject and I am in no way condoning the idea of child pornography.  But I know this photographer  got a lot of heat about her photographs (Sally Mann photographed her children, in the nude, through various stages of their lives). I'm curious what you would think of her photographs. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Mann

I hesitate to post any links to her pictures, in case anyone should find them offensive.

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In my opinion the problem

In my opinion the problem with prostitution is that it is even possible. Prostitution is a viable economic alternative for almost any woman because women are viewed sexually in the public sphere and men are not.

There is this myth that when you leave the private sphere and enter the public sphere you leave behind everything that defined you in your personal life and you should be judged solely on your performance in the public sphere. But the only things you leave in the private sphere are things that are actually private and unknown to others, and your gender isn’t one of those.

So, I think that if you want to can talk about prostitution and low self esteem it may be better to look at the attitudes that make prostitution possible than the way society devalues sex workers.

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Arletta wrote: Ooh, I just

Arletta wrote:
Ooh, I just looked at my queue on netflix and saw I'm recieving "The God Who Wasn't There" tomorrow! Has nothing to do with this topic, but yeah.

Shameless plug follows Wink

Be sure you don't miss all the DVD extras. 



The extras include:

Two full-length alternate audio tracks with commentary from evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins (A Devil's Chaplain), scholar Earl Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle) and popular blogger The Raving Atheist (ravingatheist.com)

Over one hour of selected additional interview clips with each person in the documentary

An in-depth slide show on every topic in the film, with active links to the Web (Windows or Mac computer required for Web features)

 

Yup, just put the DVD into your home computer!!! 

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ah, "the sex." wonderful

ah, "the sex." wonderful what society's done to it. taken something great and gotten people to be afraid of and disgusted by it. 

 

i'm not going to list and respond to all the points, i think they've been covered quite well. but i would like to address the question of whether nudity and sex on the television warp children's minds. i say no. i don't find that it is seeing nudity or sex that warps kids' minds, but the mystique that we place around sex as a society. we want to "protect" kids from sex, but we do them a disservice. we need to address sex in a frank and honest way with kids. none of this hush hush nonsense. strip away the mystery from sex. we spend too much time making sex into something it's not. whether we make it out to be evil/dirty/etc. as theists often do, or we shroud it in secrecy by not talking about it. kids' first exposures to sex and nudity shouldn't be from the television to begin with. anyway, that's my two cents on that. but i won't be having kids to experiment these ideas on. lol. maybe i'll experiment on my niece. although she's being raised xian, so she'll probably be taught that sex is, for the most part, wrong. like i was. screwed me up big time. wish someone had been frank and honest with me about sex. 

Rill


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:
Icebergin wrote:

4. Pornography.

I do love the pr0n! I know theists that love the porn! Porn is great and interesting. However, it is fortunate that it is regulated because I do not under any cirumstances condone child pornography, not even in tasteful art.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about when you refer to 'tasteful art'. Are you referring to perhaps the photograpy of Sally Mann? This is a sensitive subject and I am in no way condoning the idea of child pornography. But I know this photographer got a lot of heat about her photographs (Sally Mann photographed her children, in the nude, through various stages of their lives). I'm curious what you would think of her photographs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Mann

I hesitate to post any links to her pictures, in case anyone should find them offensive.



Yes and No on her. I think her work is beautiful and well done enough for me not to think of it as actual pornography, as opposed to nudes, but it's very boarderline for me. Her children most definately were okay with it, but in reality she is exploiting them to make a name for herself, which is what I find the most offensive. She is playing on the fact that her work will be controversial, because it will be called "child porn". This will bring her more publicity. The exploitation of children is wrong on any level, in my honest opinion.

In another society, I would not have a problem with these pictures, as they are not sexual in any nature. But, because of the exploitation part of her photos, I'm not sure I can condone them at this time.

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I'm a fan of Scott Church.

I'm a fan of Scott Church. He's my favorite photographer in the entire world.

http://scottchurch.livejournal.com

Sure. It 'looks' like porn, but in an 'artsy' way.

Whenever I get to Philly, I'm going to buy a session of photos for posterity's sake. lol. 

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HC Grindon wrote: Arletta

HC Grindon wrote:

Arletta wrote:
IMHO I think that the self esteem issues are due to society's influence. Society is even harder on it's sex workers then it's atheist. Words like hooker, whore, tramp, sleazy, all dehumanize people who otherwise are normal members of society. It's good money, expecially for a single mother who dropped out of school and can't get any work elsewhere, but it's hard to be proud of yourself and your work when society classifies you as nothing but a "dirty little whore".

 

Excellent point.

Arletta wrote:
It's difficult to find a movie or television show that doesn't cast prostitutes in a negative light. The closest I think I've seen to a postive movie about a prostitute is Pretty Woman, and even that movie focused on getting out of the business.

 

*WARNING - Shameless pimping of my all-time favorite TV show follows *

Rent the series "Firefly". It takes place 500 years in the future, where being a "Companion" (Courtesan) is considered to be a highly respectable profession. (Well, except to people like Mal... :^) )

 

Yes, but only Mal's allowed to call her a whore, anyone else gets sword'd.

:D 


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HC Grindon wrote: 1.

HC Grindon wrote:

1. Pre-marital sex.

2. Is being promiscuous a bad thing? Remove STD's from the equation.

3. Prostitution.

4. Pornography.

5. Age of consent, i.e. at what age is it ok to start with the hanky panky?

6. Nudity/sex in tv/movies and does this warp our children's minds?

7. Risque advertising.

8. Homosexuality/lesbianism

9. Topless bars/Beefcake bars

10. Virginity, does it matter?

1: Sure

2: If you're in a monogamous relationship where your partner isn't OK with you sleeping around, no. If you don't want your partner to sleep around, no. Otherwise, do as thou wilst.

3: As long as it's regulated so that the prostitutes get a fair share of the money (no pimps stealing it all) and they're prevented from working if they have any STIs, and protected from them (that is, people who have STIs can't go to clean prostitutes) then sure.

 4: Yes, assuming it's all consentual and no kids are involved. However, really gross or weird shit should be legal but socially unacceptable.

5: 16, though I wouldn't personally touch someone who wasn't out of high school.

 6: Someone young enough, possibly. I don't know, to be honest.

 7: Depends.

 8: If it's consentual, sure.

 9: I'm going to give a strong "maybe" on this.

10: Not much. It just means you haven't had sex, therefore have no experience. 


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Gauche wrote: So, I think

Gauche wrote:

So, I think that if you want to can talk about prostitution and low self esteem it may be better to look at the attitudes that make prostitution possible than the way society devalues sex workers.

I think that women are, to some degree, hardwired by evolution to seek a mate and try to keep that mate around to help raise the kids. That's why they tend to more focussed on love and the emotional bonding aspects of relationships than men. This extends to their sexuality, making it harder for them to disentangle their emotions from the act itself. Since prostitution is only the act itself, it's bound to be a lot better for the man than the woman. While she may be getting something she consciously wants from the transaction (money), her deeper psyche is bothered by the fact that she is giving up her major relationship bargaining chip (sex) in return for nothing that her emotional self recognizes as value. Thus the impact to self-esteem.

Before all the women kick the shit out of me, I'd like to add the caveat that I am obviously talking in gigantically broad generalities and that some or all of this may or may not apply to any individual woman. 

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