ok...we talk much about xtianity

LeftofLarry
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ok...we talk much about xtianity

but...I need to talk to someone who is fluent in the history of islam. I'm starting a debate with a muslim who insists that Islam is the true word of god and claims the qu'ran being over 1200 is filled with scientific knowledge well before it was discovered. I think it is wise to debunk not only xtianity but also judaism, and islam as well...after all, they are all abrahamic religions.

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Re: ok...we talk much about xtianity

LeftofLarry wrote:
but...I need to talk to someone who is fluent in the history of islam. I'm starting a debate with a muslim who insists that Islam is the true word of god and claims the qu'ran being over 1200 is filled with scientific knowledge well before it was discovered. I think it is wise to debunk not only xtianity but also judaism, and islam as well...after all, they are all abrahamic religions.

I converted to Islam for a couple years:

My name was Ibrahim Imran Abdullah...I am not fluent but I will try to answer you.

A MESSAGE TO ALL THEISTS:

 

CRY ME A RIVER

 

BUILD ME A BRIDGE

 

BUT IN THE NAME OF NOTHING GET OVER IT.


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ok...we talk much about xtianity

I just wanted to know if the same fallacies that apply to the bible; ie, hypocrisy, contradictions etc..also apply to the qu'ran and if so in what way? I know that the qu'ran is a collection of tales and verses as opposed to long winded stories of the bible. Also, people are claiming that the quran has guessed certain scientific principles 1200 years ago..that science has now discovered, today..what exactly, i'm on a mission to find out. I'm also on a mission to debunk islam...cause frankly, these days, judaism and islam are getting on my fucking nerves.

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Yellow_Number_Five
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ok...we talk much about xtianity

This may come in handy, Larry:

Skeptic's Annotated Quran]


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ok...we talk much about xtianity

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
This may come in handy, Larry:

Skeptic's Annotated Quran]

THANKS BRO, this will come in handy.

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

ah shit, hahah right off the bat...muslims claim the qu'ran is written by allah, himself, why then woudl the first prayer be allah? Is this god so vain, he prays to himself?

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

LeftofLarry wrote:
ah shit, hahah right off the bat...muslims claim the qu'ran is written by allah, himself, why then woudl the first prayer be allah? Is this god so vain, he prays to himself?

If you want to have a meaningful conversation the Muslims do not believe that jesus was the son of god, yet the quran states that Miriam (Mary) was impregnated by the will of Allah. This one always fucks them up:

Quote:
There are many schools of thought on the son of god, some say he was god in the flesh. But I ask you to look at the quran It does say that Jesus was born without male intervention when Miriam said:

"O my Lord! How shall i have a son when no man hath touched me?" -meaning sexually. Holy Quran 3:47.

So Mary was not impregnated by a man, but by the will of Allah, it is a similarity in why christians call jesus the son of god, because no man fathered him.

They will spin there beards into dreads with this one.

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Another important thing is his wife Aaisha was six and consumated when she was nine, not strange because the average age of marriage in the time of Muhammad may Allah shower him with peace and blessings, was between 7 and 12. She became the greatest female scholar of Islam, and recorded many hadeeths and taught other men and women. Nearly all the hadith about the personal life of Muhammad SAW were narrated by Aisha

But then the question must be asked if the prophet did it, and everything he did was just and holy...why do they not marry off there young sisters to old men?

Also a interesting point is that according to Sunni law its haaram (forbidden) to marry a girl not in puberty...so Mohammed broke the law, I am researching who wrote the Sunni law, but if it was Mohammed then he was a little hypocritical.

I hope this helps.

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CRY ME A RIVER

 

BUILD ME A BRIDGE

 

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ok, DEBUNKING AN ISLAMIC DOCUMENTARY PART 1.

THIS IS TAKEN FROM THE ANTI-NEOCON.COM THREAD ON CHURCH AND STATE WHICH I MODERATE: DUE TO THE ANTI-ISRAEL/ZIONIST VIEWS ON THAT THREAD, WE GET PEOPLE WHO THINK WE ARE SYMPATHETIC TO ISLAM AND MUSLIMS...SO I HAD TO DO A BIT OF HOUSEKEEPING.

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?p=13782#13782

DEBUNKING ISLAM DOCUMENTARY PART 1.

Ok, Nasser, I am going to appease you and watch the movie and debunk it bit by bit...let's start with the first scientific claim...let me remind you, btw: that I am a scientist and according to science, a claim must be falsiable and testable otherwise it is considerd extrapolative conjecture: correlative explanations mean nothing...and very well may be coincidences. I will also do this in parts, due to the fact that right now I don't have an hour to spend on this, but fret not..for all of this video will be eventually debunked.

I want to aslo add that this documentary is good at describing the science, however, it makes a poor, let me rephrase; an insulting attempt at correlating science with obscure verses of the qu'ran.

Claim 1: 1400 years ago people believed that the earth was flat and that the mountains held up the heavens.

Qu'ran: Surah Ar-Rad, 2 states: God is he who raised up the heaven without any support.

Debunking: Extrapolative, means absolutely nothing. First off, the qu'ran could have meant that God raised heaven by himself with out help or support, secondly this is loosely correlated to what scientists know today, well..simply the fact that heaven is not a testable idea, not falsifaiable, therefore non-scientific. This is a weak, and I repeat WEAK attempt to correlate science with islam.

Claim 2: The claim that God created the universe:

Qu'ran Surah Al-An'Am, 101: He is teh Originator of the heaven and the earth. (first debunking: if allah has written this, why is it written in third person as opposed to first person, this clearly shows this is not the work of allah)

Anyway on to the debunking: The documentary claims that science's theory fo the Big Bang, from nothing to time matter and energy came the universe.....ok..how exactly is this related to Allah creating the universe? Are you even seriously using this as an example? This is absolutely demeaning to any half intelligent person. From one verse, claiming god created the universe, you have now proven teh big bang? I don't think I have to go on further to explain how ridiculous this claim is. There are so many creation stories out there...and they are all ridiculous. If teh Qu'ran is indeed the word of god, don't you think Allah would have also written how he did it? perhaps it was NOT just a bam, an explosion? you see..this is a propagandistic attempt to correlate science with some obscure passages in teh qu'ran....not proof, but designed to capture the non-thinking irrational sheepish minds. Any person with half of an intelligence would realize how fallacious this claim is. On to the next:

Claim 3: The qu'ran claims to have known that the universe is expanding based on this obscure verse Surah adh-Dhariyal, 47: And it is We Who have constructed the heaven w/ might, and verily it is We who are steadily expanding it.

Debunkmetn: oh this is a fun one...first: WE?? what's with the WE? I thought it Was Allah, ok.. secondly...you are attempting to prove that Allah meant expanding heaven as in the physical nature. How do you know it wasn't meant on a spiritual level, after all, heaven is a spirtual place. also, the documentary CLAIMS, that by heaven, it is meatn space, wouldn't that completely degate then the existence of heaven? come on man....NEXT: this is fun.

Claim 4: The Qu'ran claims to have written about planetary orbits before science.

Surah al-Anbiya, 33: It is He Who created teh night and teh day, adn the sun and the moon, they swim along each in an orbit.

Surah ya'Sin, 38: Adn trhe sun runs to it's resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty All knowing

Surah adh-phariyat, 7: By teh sky full of paths and orbits.

Debunking: You say teh Qu'ran was handed to Mohammed by god..1,400 years ago..that wold place us at..let's see taht would place us at 606 AD correct?

ok...read this:

Ionian school, inspired by Thales of Miletus (c.624-c.547 BC), who began looking for explanations of the origin and nature of the universe that did not involve the supernatural intervention of the gods of Olympus. The essential ingredients of what later became the Ptolemaic system were first formulated by the Ionian philosophers. Anaximander (c.610-c.547 BC) made the first attempt to explain planetary motion as some kind of mechanism; Anaximenes (fl. 550 BC) suggested that the planets were carried in transparent crystal spheres in their orbits around the Earth; Anaxagoras (c.500-c. 428 BC) postulated an outer sphere of the 'Prime Mover' that was analogous to mind and reason.

Other schools of thought emerged alongside the Ionian philosophers with different theories to account for the origin of the universe and to explain its workings. The most influential of these was the Pythagorean Brotherhood. Even during his own lifetime Pythagoras (c.580-490 BC) was a legendary figure. His most enthusiastic followers declared that he was the son of Apollo. Astronomers in the Pythagorean tradition moved steadily towards an understanding of the solar system. Pythagoras himself is credited with advancing the idea that the Earth is a spherical globe. His pupil Philolaus (fl.500 BC) was the first to visualise it moving through space and simultaneously rotating on its axis. Philolaus took the first step towards a heliocentric theory with his conception of a mystical 'central fire' around which all the celestial bodies, including Earth and Sun, were said to revolve.

Herakleides (c. 380-c.310 BC) developed a hybrid theory half-way between the geocentric and heliocentric systems in which the inferior planets Mercury and Venus were in orbit around the Sun while the Sun itself and the superior planets Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were in orbit around the Earth. Finally Aristarchus of Samos (c.310-c.250 BC), the last of the Pythagorean astronomers, reasoned that the motions of the celestial bodies could all be explained by assuming that the Sun rather than the Earth stood at the centre.

Case closed, clever was the one who wrote this eh? claiming all the work. Rolling Eyes

Claim 5: Protected roof. Surah al-Anisiya, 32. We made the sky a preserved and protected roof, yet still they turn away from our signs.

Debunking: First off why is it WE again, first it's allah, now it's WE, what's with this eh? anyway could it be not true that this is meant completely out of coincidence? I mean perhaps by seeing the moon and the sun, they thouth well they are styaing up there in ORBIT (see above), therefore, there must be an invisible shield. Also...if this was truly the word of God don't you think he'd would've made the atmosphere, well, more foolsproof..ever hear of the SCIENCE behind SKIN CANCER AND THE SUN'S RADIATION? If this was God's work, don't you think he'd make it a tad bit more protective? Also the documentary claims that meteorites as they hit the earth's atmospehre burn up..well, duh...but let's not forget about the ones that did NOT burn up and left those nice little craters.. how would Allah allow certain meteors to hit the earth and not others? Also, I will guide you to this, to show you how the atmosphere was developed
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/atmos_origin.html

WELL I GOTTA GO NOW...BUT I WILL BE BACK TO FINISH THE REST OF THE MOVIE.

BUT BEFORE I GO I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION: EXPLAIN WHERE IN THE QU'RAN DOES IT TALK ABOUT SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES OF PARASITOLOGY, VIROLOGY, AND DISEASE AND HOW EACH OF THESE AFFECTS, EVOLUTIONARY GENETICS. SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE QU'RAN THAT TALKS ABOUT TRANSPOSABLE ELEMENTS, SURELY...NASSER, A GREAT BOOK OF SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE PREDATING SCIENCE, WOULD HAVE BEEN FULL OF EPIGENETICS KNOWLEDGE, DON'T YOU THINK? AND SHOW ME THE VERSE WHERE IT TALKS ABOUT HOW MALARIA PARASITES ARE APPLYING SELECTIVE PRESSURES TO HUMANS' GENES AND ALTERING THE GLYCOPHORIN A PROTEIN, SURELY A GREAT BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE WOULD HAVE THIS EXPLAINED WELL BEFORE SCIENCE CAN, AND TELL ME THE SECRET TO CURING CANCER? SURELY A BOOK SO FILLED WITH SCIENTIFIC FACT....WOULD SURELY HAVE THAT HIDDEN IN SOME OBSCURE PASAGE.

I'm not done here..btw.
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LeftofLarry
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ok...we talk much about xtianity

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

Too bad an Iranian won't read this.


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ok...we talk much about xtianity

nice adaptation to islam, leftoflarry. i just started reading some origin of islam shit recently, and the first thing i noticed was the correlation between the start of islam and the start of christianity. both began by the followers of humans who claimed to be divine or divinely inspired. the Qur'an was written by muhammad, who claimed allah had given him the words. keep in mind that allah is merely the muslim's word for the same god the jews and christians worshipped, and pile on that the fact that the previous scripture the Qur'an refers to are books from the torah, the old testament, and the gospels of christ, christ being instrumental to the islamic refutation of Isaac (the bearer of the tribes of israel) as the 'child of promise' that would inherit the holy land. you see where that goes, with relation to how islam and christianity diverged from that point to today?

lighter note: i've seen the larger version of your avatar photo, but the thumbnail version kind of makes you look like iggy pop...i dunno if that's an insult or not..not meant to be... Laughing out loud

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LeftofLarry
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ok...we talk much about xtianity

DrFear wrote:
nice adaptation to islam, leftoflarry. i just started reading some origin of islam shit recently, and the first thing i noticed was the correlation between the start of islam and the start of christianity. both began by the followers of humans who claimed to be divine or divinely inspired. the Qur'an was written by muhammad, who claimed allah had given him the words. keep in mind that allah is merely the muslim's word for the same god the jews and christians worshipped, and pile on that the fact that the previous scripture the Qur'an refers to are books from the torah, the old testament, and the gospels of christ, christ being instrumental to the islamic refutation of Isaac (the bearer of the tribes of israel) as the 'child of promise' that would inherit the holy land. you see where that goes, with relation to how islam and christianity diverged from that point to today?

lighter note: i've seen the larger version of your avatar photo, but the thumbnail version kind of makes you look like iggy pop...i dunno if that's an insult or not..not meant to be... :lol:

Right, well judaism is the oldest of the three abrahamic religions. Islam, from what I understand is the post script, metaphorically speaking. But yeah..I mean they all have similarities...if you break it down...the muslims claim that Muhammed was illeterate and couldn't have written it.. however, that is obviously the Mary Magdaleine of Islam, proving Muhammed was in fact literate and wrote the qu'ran...so..interestin points..

As far as teh avatar hahahaha..Iggy pop eh? I guess I can see that..on insult taken..lol... Laughing out loud

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lol, like i said, only in the thumbnail.

i suppose you're right about the illiteracy of muhammad from the muslim perspective....like i said, i'm just delving into it myself, but he's still seen as the major prophet for the faith, and my correlation was with the (at the time of muhammad) repetition of a human prophet or messiah or whatever you want to call him, catalysing an offshoot of a popular faith...and once again i'll cite L. Ron as just the latest to turn weak-minded people into loud-mouthed preachers and/or zealots....the point is each religion treats their founder(not the best choice of title, but you get the idea) as some kind of phenomenon, when, viewed from an outside perspective...it's not all that novel...y'know?

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

DrFear wrote:
lol, like i said, only in the thumbnail.

i suppose you're right about the illiteracy of muhammad from the muslim perspective....like i said, i'm just delving into it myself, but he's still seen as the major prophet for the faith, and my correlation was with the (at the time of muhammad) repetition of a human prophet or messiah or whatever you want to call him, catalysing an offshoot of a popular faith...and once again i'll cite L. Ron as just the latest to turn weak-minded people into loud-mouthed preachers and/or zealots....the point is each religion treats their founder(not the best choice of title, but you get the idea) as some kind of phenomenon, when, viewed from an outside perspective...it's not all that novel...y'know?

Indeed....they are all either made up or charlatans anyway.

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

Just keep in mind that it's very easy to take the Quran out of context and make it mean something other that what it realy means. I found this out while hanging out on an Islamic forum.

I found this site to be interesting: http://www.faithfreedom.org/ Check out the leaving Islam section.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


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ok...we talk much about xtianity

Reddragon wrote:
Just keep in mind that it's very easy to take the Quran out of context and make it mean something other that what it realy means. I found this out while hanging out on an Islamic forum.

I found this site to be interesting: http://www.faithfreedom.org/ Check out the leaving Islam section.

I agree..same with the bible, the documentary referred to here does just that.

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Considering that the Quran was penned well after the invention of monotheism and uses the patriarch of the inventors book, who happen to be neighbors in close proximity. To argue Islam is just a case of cultural diffusion is not a stretch.

The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.


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JB_Montag wrote:
Considering that the Quran was penned well after the invention of monotheism and uses the patriarch of the inventors book, who happen to be neighbors in close proximity. To argue Islam is just a case of cultural diffusion is not a stretch.

absolutely. The thing that gets me is that apolgists of islam, act like the information written in the qu'ran was unknown before it was written which is a straight out lie. Like all other religions, it relies on the fact that people who follow islam are ignorant to anything outside of the religion, therefore, will believe the bullshit. The documetn referenced plays along with that ignorance. Typical bullshit.

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ok...we talk much about xtianity

I will rarely speak on scripture with theists, and it doesn't matter their particular flavor. Whenever mentioning an inspired work of _____ (fill in at your discretion), anything derived from_____ is unsound unless you prove_____.

The only parts that are exempt from this, are the ones claiming a historical basis only, which require normal historical verification.

Anyone want to make a bible or quaran mad-libs?

The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.