I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.

sugarfree
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I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.

sugarfree
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Iruka Naminori wrote: I

Iruka Naminori wrote:
I also suffer from depression: severe, treatment-resistant unipolar depression. Yes, I've scraped rock bottom. I even gouged into the rock a little way. What's the most severe treatment given for depression. Think about it for a minute. I've been there; done that.
I am very sorry to hear you have suffered like this.

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Through my deconversion process and beyond I learned that the Christian mind virus preys on the young, the weak, the sick and the lonely. It especially preys upon the depressed. It took me awhile, but I finally learned to never confide in a Christian when I am having difficulties because they cannot be trusted. A Christian has one answer to everything: Jesus.
Believe it or not, I agree with you. Christians do not understand depression very well, and it is frustrating. Faith in Jesus can help one get thru, but it doesn't solve the problem of what is going on in the brain. To just believe in Jesus, certainly does not cure the depression. Perhaps miracles happen in some cases, but not mine. I've had to do the leg work. But, my faith in Jesus has helped me keep going and is helping me get rid of a lot of junk I hold on to (fear, insecurity, etc.) that cropped up because of the depression.

Iruka Naminori wrote:
If you're a reasonably intelligent person, it doesn't take much to cast doubt on the Christian religion. The religion is so blatantly silly that a part of any intelligent Christian's mind is going, "I believe. I do. I do! I DO! I DO!" while another part says, "Can't think this. Whoops...gotta stop thinking about that." The conscious mind tells itself, "There are no doubts." Once a Christian starts thinking, his faith may be doomed.
No, this is not true for me at all. With the depression, I tend to think too much about things, then scare myself and start spiraling down. So, my Christian study is helping me discern between what I should worry about and what I should not. It's not that I have stopped thinking, it's just that I choose differently where to focus that energy.

Iruka Naminori wrote:
I've learned that the Internet isn't a very safe place to share your innermost thoughts, but I will say this. When I needed him, Jesus wasn't there for me. After many years of thinking and praying, I came to the obvious conclusion: He wasn't there for me because he doesn't exist.
When I became depressed, I thought God had utterly abandoned me. Now I know it is not true, it was low serotonin that made me feel that way. Nowadays, when I feel low, I do not put any truth to it because I now it is chemical. i.e., I don't try to reason my way out of the darkness.

Gotta go now, but thanks for letting me in on your experience.

I have found food to be a good way to deal with my depression. If you are interested, try out the Sugar Addicts Recovery Program by Kathleen Desmaisons.


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deludedgod wrote: I do

deludedgod wrote:
I do disagree with your perception of me, however, I will say again, as I said in a separate post, I am sorry if I have misled you.  That was certainly not my original intent.


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I do disagree with your

I do disagree with your perception of me, however, I will say again, as I said in a separate post, I am sorry if I have misled you. That was certainly not my original intent.

Oops, that last post should not have been a quote.


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zarathustra wrote: You tell

zarathustra wrote:

You tell me to read it like a novel. I already pointed out that permits multiple interpretations (as evidenced -- once again by the thousands of different christian denominations), in other words, something other than clear, objective truth.  Next, you tell me to read it for it's historical value. I already asked you to demonstrate that it has any historical value.   Read it with my judgment cap off? Have you tried reading it with your faith cap off? I read it already as a firm believer -- my perceptions could not possibly be more favorable to god this time around.
I am not a Bible scholar.  It would take me years to get to that point.  However, I am attending a Sunday school class called "How to read the Bible".  We are talking about how you read it within it's historical context, and then from there extract the timeless truth.  i.e., When you read "women should not wear jewelry" you have to think about the people's culture at the time, what jewelry  may have represented or not represented, and then look at our time and see where the same principles can be applied.  It is not an exact science.  It requires creativity, inquisitiveness, logic, etc.  The Bible is a rich resource, one does not gain all they can from it with one read.  Also, you must be wary of which teachers you follow.  I judge a teacher, i.e. pastor, by the tone of his church.  Are the church goers kind, open, honest, friendly, do they laugh, are they joyful?  Then odds are, the teacher is effectively teaching the truths of the Bible.  If not, I would move on to another church, and keep seeking until I found a Christ-like church in which to further my study.  Also, as a Christian the New Testament is more important as a first read, then the Old Testament can provide the historical context for it.

zarathustra wrote:

If god in all his smartness things the killing off of entire peoples is acceptable as part of his really smart plan, he owes us the common courtesy of making himself a little more obvious. Otherwise, you can understand that a moral aversion to genocide precludes me giving a less than obvious god any respect.
Is your real fear that Christians are going to kill off everyone who doesn't believe in them?  I can say, there is a fear among Christians that our right to worship may be stripped because of those who are intolerant of the faith.  I do not have an answer for those Old Testament accounts.  My answer to that is, I don't know, which I think I have already said.

zarathustra wrote:

If I cannot employ logic to understand all this, then I am not obliged to understand all this.
I believe our arguments will continue going in circles.

zarathustra wrote:
After several exchanges now, you are yet to explain to me why the bible means something to you, what with its multiple errors and historical intractability.
Because studying with a group of fellow believers is helping me to become a better person, more at peace with myself, my life, and my surroundings.  The more I learn about the Bible, the more the world around me makes sense...because the events happening around us today, our actions, our reactions, they are all spelled out in that book.  I don't want to walk blindly thru this world, and when my time is done, realize I have wasted it.

zarathustra wrote:

How so? Please answer this question; because if he's proven what he knows, he's proven he exists!
He proves he exists via my cat who is sitting on my lap, purring, and loving me unconditionally.  He proves he exists when the flowers come out in spring.  He proves he exists when hail rains onto my house.  He proves he exists by the fact that I have no clue who you are, where you are, yet we are conversing on this computer.  He proves he exists with music that stirs the soul.  He proves he exists thru poetry.

zarathustra wrote:
Are you conceding that your belief in jesus reflects a personal bias?
Am I biased towards Jesus?  Yes, definitely?  Why wouldn't I be biased towards the one who paved the road to God for me, and wants to know me on a personal basis, and answers my simple prayers like "Help me figure out why my code isn't working" at work, and then 10 seconds later, I figure out where the bug is.

zarathustra wrote:

Fair enough? Are you ready to start worshipping Krishna then?
No, fair enough because I don't know anything about Krishna, so I will trust you in saying his message is that old.

zarathustra wrote:

Go ahead and get started on Scientology, and say what you really feel about Mormonism and Islam.
False prophecy.


This is all you have to say to dismiss all 3, after saying "Don't even get me started on Scientology, and if I say what I really feel about Mormonism and Islam, you'll probably say I'm dumb in a smarter sounding way"? I'm sorry, you will have to do better than that, particularly after citing christianity's rapid spread in support of its validity. How did these "false prophecies" spread so quickly? Could not christianity just be another fast-spreading "false prophecy"? Once again, this is what I am referring to when I say "special pleading". In the case of christianity, X confirms that christianity is true, yet in the case of all other religions where we notice X, it doesn't apply.
  All I can say to you is that I was a doubter once too.  Yet, the more I learn about the Bible, the more I realize how complete and comprehensive it's philosophy is.  I do not know if you had a bad teacher or what.  But to me, the world makes more sense looking at it from within the world view of Christianity rather than looking at it from without.  The puzzle pieces fit together, but you need all the puzzle pieces.  You can't just pick and choose what you don't like.  This morning my pastor put it more eloquently, he said, Never read your needs into the text, rather read the text to see what you need.

Well, as it seems we are simply butting heads, we could probably go at this for another year or two.  I may take leave of this chat for awhile, as I have contracted a stomach bug or something and nearly tossed my cookies on the church congregation this morning as I was singing.  So, if I am absent from the conversation for awhile, that is why.


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Well, it's pretty obvious

Well, it's pretty obvious that taking the route of "logic" and "reason" and "thinking" and "using your brain" and such isn't going to convert sugarfree to atheism. That said, my offer of "become an atheist, get a chocolate cookie" is still on the table. That's just the kind of guy I am.

Edit: The cookie is starting to look appetizing. If you want it, you'd better become an atheist quick, 'cause I'm about to eat that thing.

Re-edit: Hurry up, sugarfree. If you don't convert, there's no cookie. This is some serious Pascal's Wager shit here, man.

Tri-edit: TOO LATE MMMMM COOKIE SO GOOD 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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tolerance

Sugarfree, you mention anger and hatred. I think it's that some folks feel frustrated and that's how it comes out. And I'm sure many on this board are angry because of their experiences with religious people.

 BUT. And it's a big BUT. In my opinion and belief, if everyone on the planet, in one great moment of understanding, simply agreed that we were all entitled to our own beliefs (or unbeliefs) and stopped trying to convert everyone, the anger would go away. At least it would for most. Because I, for instance, really have no investment in what people believe. I feel that it's a personal choice, and that their choice or understanding may change over time, and that we each should be free to walk our own paths without being bashed about the head for it. That open conversation is healthy. That preaching isn't

The problem is that many religions feel it's their duty to bash everyone else over the head and try to convert them. It's a cult-like attitude that I find difficult to understand, and when taken to extremes, very offensive.

I believe that you (Sugarfree) mean well. I'm happy for you, that you've found answers that work for you. Just please remember that the answers others have found may be different, and that if people on here perceive that you're preaching to them, they'll react pretty strongly.

Peace.

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creating art ~ creating a new life


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sugarfree wrote: There is

sugarfree wrote:
There is much bitterness, anger, and hate on this board.
What is wrong with being angry about false beliefs?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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There is much bitterness,

There is much bitterness, anger, and hate on this board.

I think people don't realize that "atheism" is inherently a meaningless concept. We don't classify people based on whether they like toothbrushes or computers.

Atheism only exists because religion has such power. If theism fell tommorow, the term atheist would cease to exist.

 

If it were up to me, I could put my feet up on this issue. I live in Hong Kong, one of the most secular countries in the world, a place where there are almost no religious, and where religion does exist, it is diverse and tolerant, and coexistence between the spheres of society is not marred by religion. There is no creation science, no vile protests with signs saying God of {insert violent religion here} warrants the destruction of {insert left-wing cause or hated minority group here} because of {insert Bible verse here}. There is none of that. Education is completely secular. There is no controversy of creationist students because there are none. There is no religious violence, no dogmatism. Religion has very much been placed in what should be its sphere of society, namely fully outside the public sphere. Here, there are churches, mosques and temples peacefully side by side.

 So why not put up my feet? Because a) I enjoy debate, which RRS offers, and b) I am gravely considered about the situation in parts of the world. From the Middle East to Middle America. We are on the brink of a scientific revolution. From theoretical physics to molecular biology, ancient spiritual questions, ones that once could only be answered by the myth of religion, are being answered by science. Yet instead of embracing this revolution in the interest of peace and progress for all mankind, people from Alabama to Afghanistan are turning inwards and embracing fundamentalism. And don’t say it is a small minority because it really is not.

 There is anger, surely, but only because of the hypocrisy. We don't seek to actively convert. Have you ever seen an atheist holding up a sign saying there is no God and you have to stop worshipping? Have you ever seen an atheist stop and demand you renounce Christ in the street or leave the God Delusion under the windsheild?

Yet because religious are under the delusion that they are on the one true path, they are in a constant circular battle of conversion in an attempt to bring more people under their control. I look at religion and see a set of mutually exlcusive dogmas. Never a good thing. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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sugarfree wrote: There is

sugarfree wrote:
There is much bitterness, anger, and hate on this board.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

The Rational Response Squad offers nothing but the unvarnished truth. We don't try to frighten you with hellfire or lure you with false hopes of an eternal existence in a perfect place. All we seek is the truth. Unfortunately, the truth isn't as popular as a fairy tale that makes people feel good.

What you are perceiving as bitterness, anger and hatred may in fact be what you are feeling as you consider the possibility you may be wrong about Christianity. When these issues confronted me, I was very bitter and angry. Why not? I had been lied to and I'd built my entire life on that lie. That would make anyone angry. A psychologist I know refers to it as "shattered faith syndrome."

When a person deconverts, it affects every single aspect of that person's life. I lost my world view. I lost all my friends, including my non-existent, invisible best friend. I lost my belief in eternal life and had to face death on its own terms. I lost any hope of closeness with my family. I lost the respect of everyone I knew. I lost the respect of society. I lost pretty much everything. And that is just plain wrong. At this point, someone who deconverts must face a great deal of pain, often alone. It's what makes deconverting so hard. Most people will hang on to the delusion as long as they can. I hope that in the future what I went through will make the path easier for others.

All we offer you is a choice: the red pill or the blue pill. If you choose the blue pill, things may be easier but you will be in a state of total denial for the rest of your life.

If religion were harmless, I'd leave religionists alone. But the truth about religion is quite ugly. We must end religion or it will end us. And because religion has got quite good with the carrot and the stick, offering the red pill of truth will not be enough for some people.

This video of Sam Harris pretty much sums up why we must be so blunt, why we may come across as angry, bitter and hateful. All we are doing is using reason to destroy an artificial construct, but that construct is so ingrained in our society and the minds of its people, so needed (in much the same way an addictive substance is needed), that we come across as radical. There was a time when opposition to slavery, equal rights for women and child labor laws seemed radical. Now they are accepted as necessarily moral.

There is no quarter for religion, just as there is no quarter for those who think the earth is flat (yes, there still are some). Christianity is demonstrably FALSE. That is a fact and not an opinion. Any reasonable person who looks at the evidence should be completely convinced, yet America continues to wallow in delusion, infected by this horrible mind virus.

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sugarfree

sugarfree wrote:


zarathustra wrote:
Where does jesus himself say that the old 'morality' should be deferred? Did he not say in the gospels that "not one jot or tittle of the law" should be discarded?
Jesus fulfilled the law by living a perfect life according to the law. He indwells in us and acts as our advocate before God, therefore, we are not bound by the Old Testament laws in order reach God. (You cannot employ logic to understand all this, logic is not the end all be all, God is more than logic, truth is more than logic. Logic is one of God's tools, not to be worshipped.)

Leviticus 23:3 plainly states that the Sabbath is a day of rest.

Number 15:32 Leads into the stoning of a man who worked on the Sabbath in observance with the rules.

But then...

Matthew 12:1 Jesus is working on the Sabbath, breaking the rules of the OT.

So he didn't live a life according to the law of the OT.

 

-Triften


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Iruka Naminori wrote: What

Iruka Naminori wrote:

What you are perceiving as bitterness, anger and hatred may in fact be what you are feeling as you consider the possibility you may be wrong about Christianity.

As I have studied Jesus, the bitterness and anger has begun to melt away. I perceive in you the old anger I used to have, that is why I am able to name it.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

If religion were harmless, I'd leave religionists alone. But the truth about religion is quite ugly. We must end religion or it will end us. And because religion has got quite good with the carrot and the stick, offering the red pill of truth will not be enough for some people.

Has your life been fulfilling in a way that you would have people pattern themself off it? There are elderly in my church who have been studying scripture and attending church their entire lives, and their countenance is free of anger, and bitterness. They have love in their hearts for others.  They are old in body, but young in spirit. I choose to follow the road that will lead me to that.


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triften wrote: Matthew

triften wrote:

Matthew 12:1 Jesus is working on the Sabbath, breaking the rules of the OT.

So he didn't live a life according to the law of the OT.

 

So perhaps my phrasing was wrong and I should have said he lived a sinless life.  What you are arguing here is similar to what the pharisees said to Jesus to try to get him to trip up.  He was against all the laws they had put into place that kept people occupied, however, kept them from knowing God.


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deludedgod wrote: There

deludedgod wrote:

There is anger, surely, but only because of the hypocrisy. We don't seek to actively convert. Have you ever seen an atheist holding up a sign saying there is no God and you have to stop worshipping? Have you ever seen an atheist stop and demand you renounce Christ in the street or leave the God Delusion under the windsheild?

Yet because religious are under the delusion that they are on the one true path, they are in a constant circular battle of conversion in an attempt to bring more people under their control. I look at religion and see a set of mutually exlcusive dogmas. Never a good thing.

It's not about control, it's about freedom.  Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex.  They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules.  The kids are suffering the most. 

I've never seen a vile protest of Christians over here except perhaps a few times on television, by groups on the extreme right fringes, who the rest of us Christians view as off balance anyway.  And so what if someone stops me on the street to share their views with me.  It's a free country.  For now.  If I meet you on the street someday, feel free to tell me to renounce God, but please do it kindly and without cursing.  Then I will be more apt to listen to you.


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It's not about control,

It's not about control, it's about freedom. Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex. They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules. The kids are suffering the most.

I do not understand your proposition. Furthermore, I am not American so that will not work on me. For years I have lived in the worlds most secular societies: Japan, China, Norway and Canada. These places have vastly better education, crime rates, health and life quality than the United States. Your American-centric veiw is meaningless to me.

I've never seen a vile protest of Christians over here except perhaps a few times on television, by groups on the extreme right fringes, who the rest of us Christians view as off balance anyway. And so what if someone stops me on the street to share their views with me. It's a free country. For now. If I meet you on the street someday, feel free to tell me to renounce God, but please do it kindly and without cursing. Then I will be more apt to listen to you.

When did I ever curse you? You still dont get it, do you? I dont care if people hold religious belief. I dont prosetlyize. I dont want to walk up yo you on the street and tell you not to believe in God. You know why? Because it is a free society. People can believe what they wish BUT! When religion operates under the delusion that deep down we are not free to believe in anything except what they believe because they think they are the only correct ones, then the problem becomes grave, especially when three billion people belong to the world's two evangelizing struggles for global hegemony: Christianity and Islam.

I've never seen a vile protest of Christians over here except perhaps a few times on television, by groups on the extreme right fringes, who the rest of us Christians view as off balance anyway.

This mentality of "small minority" must end. There are 55 million Evangelicals. They are extremely dangerous and weild tremendous political power. The far right of Christianity can bend the American political scene to it's will. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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AiiA wrote: sugarfree

AiiA wrote:
sugarfree wrote:
There is much bitterness, anger, and hate on this board.
What is wrong with being angry about false beliefs?
Is it righteous, Godly anger?  That's what I would, personally, ask myself.  Because such anger is without sin.  In that case, you are, in fact, right about being angry.  But it requires looking inward to see if your anger is in line with God's values.  A belief in the Christian God gives you something to measure your anger against.  This is what I mean when I say, I don't want to walk blindly thru my life.  I want to be able to measure myself against a higher standard in able to keep myself in line, morally speaking.


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JeremiahSmith wrote: That

JeremiahSmith wrote:

That said, my offer of "become an atheist, get a chocolate cookie" is still on the table.

I appreciate the sentiment but I don't eat refined white sugars.  Fruits only, in moderation.  I've learned that sugar is bad for my mental health, which is pretty ironic, given your offer...


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GreyhoundMama: You are a

GreyhoundMama: You are a breath of fresh air.  Bless you.  I do not sense the same kind of anger or bitterness in your posts.

Maybe I am wrong, and am not being Christ-like, by expressing my  observation of the anger/bitterness/hate.  I'm not doing it to point fingers, I'm just voicing what I am seeing.  I was actually trying to help with that comment, but the more I speak, it seems I am just making people more mad at me.

Anyways.  I just wanted to say I appreciate your gentleness of spirit! 


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deludedgod wrote: These

deludedgod wrote:

These places have vastly better education, crime rates, health and life quality than the United States. Your American-centric veiw is meaningless to me.

If you have not lived here, how can you judge. Do not trust the media. You would have to live here yourself to know for sure what's going on.

deludedgod wrote:

When did I ever curse you?

Sorry, I have lost track of who has and who has not. I take it back if you have not.

deludedgod wrote:
When religion operates under the delusion that deep down we are not free to believe in anything except what they believe because they think they are the only correct ones, then the problem becomes grave, especially when three billion people belong to the world's two evangelizing struggles for global hegemony: Christianity and Islam.
I mean this in all seriousness, can I educate you on this. This free country I am now living on was founded on Christian ethics. Whether the founding fathers were Christian, I will not debate, but they were influenced by the land in which they came, which was undeniably Christian. Obviously, they did not believe in state sponsored religion. Nor do I, nor does any Christian I know. I will repeat that. No Christian I know believes in state sponsored religion. Even the founding fathers, however, believed in a creator. "That all men are created equal, that we are endowed by our CREATOR, with inalienable rights, that among those are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Christianity is so supportive of a free society...in fact, it inherently CANNOT support anything else. You are biting the hand that has fed you, and it is dangerous, deludedgod. Because when you kill that which has allowed you to be free, you will be in a much worse state than you are, the entire world will be. If you want an enemy, call it Islam because they want us ALL to live under a totalitarian ISLAMIC society. You are my BROTHER in this fight deludedgod. We have to stop fighting with each other like this and name the real enemy of our time, which is Islamic fascism.

deludedgod wrote:

This mentality of "small minority" must end. There are 55 million Evangelicals. They are extremely dangerous and weild tremendous political power. The far right of Christianity can bend the American political scene to it's will.

It's this simple, deludedgod. Christians do NOT WANT state sponsored Christianity. They just do not want God to be stripped out of the public arena. The more you all try to strip the word God out of everything, the more Christians will fight. But we are not fighting for state sponsored religion. That is a complete fallicy.


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If you have not lived here,

If you have not lived here, how can you judge. Do not trust the media. You would have to live here yourself to know for sure what's going on.

I am not judging, I am merely correcting your views of secularism by pointing out that they are American-centric. The only source of information I had in writing that was your comment.

 Obviously, they did not believe in state sponsored religion. Nor do I, nor does any Christian I know. I will repeat that. No Christian I know believes in state sponsored religion.

You must not live in a red state.

 Christianity is so supportive of a free society...in fact, it inherently CANNOT support anything else. You are biting the hand that has fed you, and it is dangerous, deludedgod.

OK, that is ridiculous. In Europe unlike America, the Church once wielded direct political power. That is why Europe is so secular, because they know first hand what happens when the church does have state-sponsored religion. For 1800 years Christanity was a state sponsored faith with iron grip. I trust you have heard of the Inquisition and the pogroms?

Furthermore, this hand did not feed me. I was not raised in a Western country. 

 Because when you kill that which has allowed you to be free, you will be in a much worse state than you are, the entire world will be.

Like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about. It is secular influence that has morphed religion into a passive stance. moral progress almost never goes hand in hand with religion. I choose my words carefully here. Obviously religious people can make great contributions to moral progress, like Martin Luther King, but it does not require a history degree to realize that if Europe was still a theocracy, genial old scholars would still be burned alive for blaspheming the Bible (this, in fact, is exactly what is happening in Islamic nations, except, of course, with the Qur’an). In fact, “justice” only ceased to be a misnomer when the British secularized judiciary in the 19th century.

 If you want an enemy, call it Islam because they want us ALL to live under a totalitarian ISLAMIC society. You are my BROTHER in this fight deludedgod. We have to stop fighting with each other like this and name the real enemy of our time, which is Islamic fascism.

 Indeed. I am extremely well educated in Islamic history. You do not need to tell me this.

On how religion steals from secular morality, the argument I always use is the comparison of Islam and Christianty.

When Islam was at the height of it's empire, Christianity had sunk. Europe was a miserable ignorant cesspool. They were so evil and theocratic that when the Islamic armies stormed Barcelona, the Jewish inhabitants begged them to liberate them from the ghastly horrors of Christendom. Now, Islam was not much better but it certianly flourished! It brought the literacy, mathematics and astronomy back to Europe to later rekindle the Enlightenment. What made it successful? It was much more secular than Europe. The Islamic empire needed talent. It didn't care if the talent was Jewish, or Asiatic or from anywhere across the Fertile Crescent. It was not bound under the iron grip of the Quran just yet.

Of course, the Islamic empire collapsed and Christianity surged through to the Enlightenment, benefiting off the knowledge the Arabs had brought to Spain. It was only when science tore free from being a branch of theology (Enlightenment) that it took off. The success of the West was it's secularization. The reason that it had such moral progress was secularization. The reason we don't behead unbelievers or ship slaves from the Canary Islands. You think it is faith that led such a revolution?

Now let's look at what happened to Islam. With the collapse of the empire, the secular intellectual tradition vanished. Islam turned inwards and embraced fundamentalism. The black pearl of religious intolerance has passed to Islam. It is the only religion still in existence where proselytizing, religious debate, atheism, Judaism, apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, premarital sex and adultery are still punishable under the criminal code. Far worse, all of the above-mentioned offences carry the death penalty.

When religion is running the morality show, you can be guaranteed that the results are not going to be good. Here is formula I use:

Religion + Secular influence = diluted influence = good

Religion - secular influence = dogmatism = theocracy = bad

When societies are secularized, they become Enlightened and humane. When societies are subject to religious revisionism (the 1979 Revolution of Iran), the results are grave.

 It's this simple, deludedgod. Christians do NOT WANT state sponsored Christianity. They just do not want God to be stripped out of the public arena. The more you all try to strip the word God out of everything, the more Christians will fight. But we are not fighting for state sponsored religion. That is a complete fallicy.

You can visit Tomas de Torquemada's grave and tell him that yourself. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Has your life been fulfilling in a way that you would have people pattern themself off it? There are elderly in my church who have been studying scripture and attending church their entire lives, and their countenance is free of anger, and bitterness. They have love in their hearts for others. They are old in body, but young in spirit. I choose to follow the road that will lead me to that.

So, if it feels good, do it?

There are many things wrong with this argument and I think you're intelligent enough to know it, but I'll point a few out for you anyway:

1) There are many, many atheists that live fulfilling lives, including me. Just because I have difficulties doesn't mean I'm willing to throw my life away. Nor am I willing to sacrifice the truth, hurting the world just so I can live in a fantasy. Doing otherwise would be cowardly and selfish.

2) Religion was, if not the cause, a major cause of the difficulties I experience. Getting rid of religion also caused a lot of problems in the same way giving up alcoholism will cause problems. There are painful withdrawal symptoms and you often find you can no longer hang out with your alcoholic buddies. Because I've seen the absurdity of the Christian religion, I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. And, what's more, I wouldn't want to. I do better swimming without the anvil. It was dragging me down. Eventually it would have killed me.

Being raised fundamentalist is abusive. It's a wonder anyone manages to live through it. It's a tribute to the human spirit.

Comparing my life with some old person who wasn't raised as I was, who doesn't have the same brain chemistry, who doesn't have the same personality, etc. is ridiculous in the extreme. Ignorance can be bliss, but it can also be harmful. In my case it was harmful.

I like who I am now, but because of my background / brain chemistry, I will always struggle (unless a cure is found). It's a relief to be able to think what I want to think and be who I really am without kowtowing to some nasty, whiny fairy in the sky. What a relief!

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deludedgod wrote: You must

deludedgod wrote:

You must not live in a red state.
I DO, that's why I know what I know. We aren't a bunch of zealots, that's just how we are being painted. The media isn't helping the issue.

deludedgod wrote:

OK, that is ridiculous. In Europe unlike America, the Church once wielded direct political power. That is why Europe is so secular, because they know first hand what happens when the church does have state-sponsored religion.
I believe the secularism in Europe started after WWII, and happened in part because Europe took Roosevelt's socialist ideas and ran with them, but here in America we have put up more of a fight against them.

deludedgod wrote:

Furthermore, this hand did not feed me. I was not raised in a Western country.
You don't think you benefit from America's economy? "Made in Hong Kong"? America supports free societies because we would like to remain free also.

deludedgod wrote:

Indeed. I am extremely well educated in Islamic history. You do not need to tell me this.
Good. Then help me out, deludedgod, because I do not want to wear a burka. By being so against Christians, you are helping to strengthen their morale. They are trying to divide the world into two camps, yours and mine, and they are waiting for us to destroy each other. This is part of the propaganda war. And our enemy is winning. We need to wake up and stop fighting like this because it is going to be our downfall. I am not against you for being an atheist, but I feel you are strongly against me for being a Christian. But, we want the same things for this world, I'm telling you.

Okay, you gave me a lot of historical stuff to read thru on your post. I know you have focused on why religion was "bad" for society, but you know, some people have studied why it has been "good" and the arguments are equally compelling.

deludedgod wrote:

When religion is running the morality show, you can be guaranteed that the results are not going to be good. Here is formula I use:

Religion + Secular influence = diluted influence = good

Religion - secular influence = dogmatism = theocracy = bad


Where does secularism get its morality from? 10 commandments, other religions? How would a secular society exist if it was not founded on religious morality. Religion started out as man's way to govern himself, so you are a product of it's legacy

I leave you with this thought.

Me + Burka = Bad.


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deludedgod wrote: Now

deludedgod wrote:

Now let's look at what happened to Islam. With the collapse of the empire, the secular intellectual tradition vanished. Islam turned inwards and embraced fundamentalism. The black pearl of religious intolerance has passed to Islam. It is the only religion still in existence where proselytizing, religious debate, atheism, Judaism, apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, premarital sex and adultery are still punishable under the criminal code. Far worse, all of the above-mentioned offences carry the death penalty.

Absolutely. 

Before Islam had its fundamentalist crisis, Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world.  Algebra is an Arabic word.  Ever hear of "Arabic numerals"? Ptolemy? 2/3rds of the stars have Arabic names.

Then what happened? Fundamentalist religion happened. An Islamic cleric, Imam Hamid al-Ghazali, decided math was the work of the devil.  The Arabic world never recovered.

deludedgod wrote:
You can visit Tomas de Torquemada's grave and tell him that yourself.

And you still can't Torquemada anything. Eye-wink 

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Iruka Naminori wrote: 1)

Iruka Naminori wrote:

1) There are many, many atheists that live fulfilling lives, including me. Just because I have difficulties doesn't mean I'm willing to throw my life away.

Okay, this part makes sense to me.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

2) Religion was, if not the cause, a major cause of the difficulties I experience. Getting rid of religion also caused a lot of problems in the same way giving up alcoholism will cause problems. There are painful withdrawal symptoms and you often find you can no longer hang out with your alcoholic buddies. Because I've seen the absurdity of the Christian religion, I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. And, what's more, I wouldn't want to. I do better swimming without the anvil. It was dragging me down. Eventually it would have killed me.

Being raised fundamentalist is abusive. It's a wonder anyone manages to live through it. It's a tribute to the human spirit.

I strongly agree with you. Fundamentalism is extremely damaging, and I did not realize you had been subjected to it. Hear me out tho, my Christian experience is not like that, not at all. Not all Christians are fundamentalists...in fact, I do not know any. It makes sense that you would be wary of religion now. I'm sorry, perhaps I should have put myself in that sentence instead of you and said, would I want anyone to model their life after me? I'd much rather they model it after Jesus, because his morality was far superior than mine will ever be.

Iruka Naminori wrote:
I like who I am now, but because of my background / brain chemistry, I will always struggle (unless a cure is found). It's a relief to be able to think what I want to think and be who I really am without kowtowing to some nasty, whiny fairy in the sky. What a relief!

Iruka, I agree that mental health issues make the whole "God" issue much more difficult, because I have been there and wrestled with it myself. When I was baptized I was still pretty anti-religion. I just didn't get a lot of it, and I didn't understand a lot of the churchy stuff. But that churchy stuff is all man's design. What it came down to for me was I wanted to get to know Jesus, and that's what I always go back to, because it's more important than the church, the rules, etc. And Jesus isn't contantly whining and judging, I promise. When you mess up, you sincerely ask for his forgiveness, forgiveness is granted, and he forgets the sin ever occured. That's why, you perpetually have a fresh start, a clean slate.


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I believe the secularism in

I believe the secularism in Europe started after WWII, and happened in part because Europe took Roosevelt's socialist ideas and ran with them, but here in America we have put up more of a fight against them.

Indeed, I have a dislike of Europe's left-wing attitude towards Islam. Nonetheless, I have travelled extensively in Europe and have found it a spiritual home.

You don't think you benefit from America's economy? "Made in Hong Kong"? America supports free societies because we would like to remain free also.

I was actually referring to social ideas not economic policy. Furthermore, I have seen with my own eyes the rise of China, and I am convinced that within 15 years America will be completely overshadowed by this giant. Interestingly enough, China in and of itself defeats the notion that religious morality is necessary. For 7,000 years they had a Confucian system of nontheist morality that served them perfectly. This society, which for so long has ruled the world, makes the idea of religion as a necessary force seem utterly ridiculous.

Good. Then help me out, deludedgod, because I do not want to wear a burka. By being so against Christians, you are helping to strengthen their morale.

If I could choose to wipe one religion off the face of the map, it would be Islam. Furthermore, I do not dislike Christians, many friends I have are Christian. But there is one issue I have not shared with you. I feel very strongly about the rise of literal Christianity again. I am referring to Creationism now. How few accept evolution in America? 

As a scientist, I feel extreme problems about the astonishing spread of misinformation, all of it Christian. If you can fix this, I will never breathe another word about my general dislike of the religion.

 But I concede. I despise Islam.

 They are trying to divide the world into two camps, yours and mine, and they are waiting for us to destroy each other.

 That is a little pessimistic. It is they seem to enjoy killing each other. I hope perhaps that they will just blow each other up and leave us alone. As Kissinger said of the Iraq-Iran war "a pity they can't both lose". I have studied Islamic fundamentalism and I have never heard the theory that they are attempting to split our society. They see Christians and atheists as one block of evil.

 This is part of the propaganda war. And our enemy is winning.

I doubt it. When the oil dries up, Arabia will collapse.

 but I feel you are strongly against me for being a Christian.

 What? Please find a quote that supports that. Argue with does not equal dislike.

 Where does secularism get its morality from? 10 commandments, other religions? How would a secular society exist if it was not founded on religious morality.

That is a revisionist approach. Secularism is founded on religious society (at least in the West, I trust my example of China straightened this myth out for you) but after that it is an unnecessary force. For instance, science used to be an arm of theology. But science only progressed when it tore free of that institution. Should scientists have to study theology then?

 Religion started out as man's way to govern himself, so you are a product of it's legacy

that does not mean it is still necessary

 Me + Burka = Bad.

You are merely rephrasing my formula 

Religion - secular influence = dogmatism = theocracy = bad

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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You don't think you benefit

You don't think you benefit from America's economy? "Made in Hong Kong"? America supports free societies because we would like to remain free also.
Claim 1: America was founded on Christian principles which came from Britain.
Claim 2: America supports free societies.
Why are black people mad at white people?
Why are there so few Native Americans these days?
Why are native Filipinos fluent in English?
I think the answers to these questions bears on the validity of your claims.


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sugarfree wrote: It's not

sugarfree wrote:
It's not about control, it's about freedom. Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex. They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules. The kids are suffering the most.

You've been misled.  If anything, Christianity contributes to these problems.  As deludedgod pointed out, the more secular Western nations are much better off than we are.  What's more, divorce rates are LOWER among atheists than they are among Christians: http://dark-sided.blogspot.com/2006/10/divorce-rates-highest-for-christians.html

Another interesting tidbit your church won't tell you: we've postulated that Christians commit more crimes than atheists:

"Unfortunately, this is not the case. When one looks at prison incarceration, one sees Christians most represented, and atheists UNDERPERPRESENTED per capita (USA population has roughly 13% atheists, and yet prison population is 0.209% atheist: see http://holysmoke.org/prison.htm). Out of 74,731 prisoners, 156 are atheists; 62,594 are Christian; 5,435 are Muslim; 1,325 are Jewish. Given a conservative 10% of USA population being atheists, one would expect 7,473 atheists in prison: the data suggests that atheists commit fewer crimes than theists."

The above is from http://www.holysmoke.org/hs02/unfit.htm 

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That is a revisionist

That is a revisionist approach. Secularism is founded on religious society (at least in the West, I trust my example of China straightened this myth out for you) but after that it is an unnecessary force. For instance, science used to be an arm of theology. But science only progressed when it tore free of that institution. Should scientists have to study theology then?
That's interesting, but does it invite the argument that moral atheists are only denying the imporance of religion to a just society? I'm not arguing that, though. I think of religion as a placeholder -- a way to cope with fear induced by overwhelming human ignorance by dismissing the questions with, plainly, reassurances.


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sugarfree wrote: It's not

sugarfree wrote:
It's not about control, it's about freedom. Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex. They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules. The kids are suffering the most.

Societies with higher percentages of religious adherents have higher rates of homicide, teenage pregnancy and abortion and STD infection. There is not a positive correlation between belief in god and 'moral behavior' if anything there is a negative correlation. Check out this study published in the Journal of Religion and Society.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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sugarfree

sugarfree wrote:

Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex. They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules. The kids are suffering the most.

Where do you get off making accusations like this? The U.S. has the highest teen pregnancy rate(there is no way obviously to count how many teenagers are having sex) in the world, and it also has the highest rates of religious affiliation amongst developed countries. In the U.S. the majority of states that have the highest teen pregancy rates, and divorce rates, are in the bible belt. Amongst developed countries, the safest and most desirable places to live also tend to have the lowest rates of religion. You want to know what's damaging our society? Look around you next time you're at church.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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I used to be religious. I

I used to be religious. I wasn't raised to be though. My parents wanted me to make my own choices. I haven't been baptised. When I was 9 they took me to church just to give me the opportunity to see what it was like and I did, admittedly fall for it. The vicar there, really nice guy is actually fairly agnostic, in fact he doesn't really believe it. When I was 14 I started to think, realised Buddhism was pretty cool but by that stage I really wasn't bothered about commiting to irrational beliefs besides vegetarianism (which I adopted aged 5 - I'm still one by habit only at 20).

My advice to sugarfree is to reread the bible (if you have actually read it) see what a bastard God actually is in it, then read the works of atheists, not just think about the fact that we have no belief in God, but actually consider our reasons not to- the problem of evil, logical problems in the theory of God, anthropological/psychological reasons why humans actually tend to believe in God, why you believe in God, and even if you believe accept God why does that make the bible true? Question the very basis of your faith down to the validity of the bible or what your parents may have told you. If you do this well it's very likely you'll become an atheist or agnostic. It's not up to us to convince you but to advise you how to enlighten yourself. I'm sure most people here are against the idea of indoctrination so we'll leave it up to you.

 

 


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Iruka-- At this point, I am

Iruka--

At this point, I am ready to agree to disagree with you on the whole religion/God thing.  I understand why you have needed a religion "detox".

 I will await to hear back from you to conclude the "sugarfree challenge".


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magilum wrote: Why are

magilum wrote:

Why are black people mad at white people?
Why are there so few Native Americans these days?
Why are native Filipinos fluent in English?
I think the answers to these questions bears on the validity of your claims.

There are ugly things in American history.  But are we going to keep beating ourselves over the head because of it, or learn from it and move forward?  There are also many good things about American history.  No country has a 100% spotless record, including atheist country's.  Look at China. 


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deludedgod wrote:

deludedgod wrote:

Furthermore, I have seen with my own eyes the rise of China, and I am convinced that within 15 years America will be completely overshadowed by this giant.

You may indeed be right.

deludedgod wrote:
Interestingly enough, China in and of itself defeats the notion that religious morality is necessary. For 7,000 years they had a Confucian system of nontheist morality that served them perfectly. This society, which for so long has ruled the world, makes the idea of religion as a necessary force seem utterly ridiculous.
You would rather live in a country like China, than live among Christians in a country like America? If so, you and I will never come to a consensus. Would you put me in jail for worshipping my God the way I want to worship him?

deludedgod wrote:

If I could choose to wipe one religion off the face of the map, it would be Islam. Furthermore, I do not dislike Christians, many friends I have are Christian. But there is one issue I have not shared with you. I feel very strongly about the rise of literal Christianity again. I am referring to Creationism now. How few accept evolution in America?

I think many Christians accept evolution as a possiblity and do not take the timeline of genesis literally. I would say, more often then not, that is the case. So, I do not think you need to be worried on this point.

deludedgod wrote:
As a scientist, I feel extreme problems about the astonishing spread of misinformation, all of it Christian. If you can fix this, I will never breathe another word about my general dislike of the religion.
I personally find religion and science compatible. I do not feel threatened by scientific discovery.

deludedgod wrote:

That is a little pessimistic. It is they seem to enjoy killing each other. I hope perhaps that they will just blow each other up and leave us alone. As Kissinger said of the Iraq-Iran war "a pity they can't both lose". I have studied Islamic fundamentalism and I have never heard the theory that they are attempting to split our society. They see Christians and atheists as one block of evil.

I hope you are right, but I think it will get worse before it gets better. If the U.S. goes to sleep again on the issue...it will not be good. But that's what is happening. People may not agree with how we are fighting the extremists, but we must fight them somehow. Sitting back and letting the chips fall where they may is not going to work.

deludedgod wrote:

What? Please find a quote that supports that. Argue with does not equal dislike.

Okay. I accept that I may have misread you. But if you support the current government in China, it concerns me because they are putting Christians in jail who are worshipping differently than how the government allows them to worship. And hey, what about that guy Mao. He killed a lot of people. I am under the impression that China, like most countries, has it's own bloody past.

deludedgod wrote:
Should scientists have to study theology then?
Like I said, I believe religion and science can be compatible. I study both and am not chronically confused.

deludedgod wrote:

Me + Burka = Bad.

You are merely rephrasing my formula

Then let me restate it more clearly

Global Islamic state = bad

On that matter, we are in the same fight.


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sugarfree wrote: triften

sugarfree wrote:
triften wrote:

Matthew 12:1 Jesus is working on the Sabbath, breaking the rules of the OT.

So he didn't live a life according to the law of the OT.

So perhaps my phrasing was wrong and I should have said he lived a sinless life. What you are arguing here is similar to what the pharisees said to Jesus to try to get him to trip up. He was against all the laws they had put into place that kept people occupied, however, kept them from knowing God.

So it's not a sin to work on the Sabbath and steal?

-Triften 


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Sorry if I'm breaking the

Sorry if I'm breaking the flow of conversation, but I felt this needed a response.

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
She shows up, challenging us to disprove god, many of us are kind enough to oblige, and then to try this kind of cop-out... It's just so dishonest. What a fucking waste of time.
In fact, I thought, you might be able to convince me, and I was a bit nervous, but I was ready for the challenge.

So, you were worried that you might be convinced not to believe in god? I think that reveals your bias quite clearly. You aren't interested in what is true, you just want to keep believing what you believe because it makes you feel better. Why else would you have been nervous? Isn't learning the truth something to be excited about? No one is trying to deceive you.

If you aren't willing to use reason, then there's no point in anyone talking to you about religion. It won't benefit you or them. What do you want, a poem?

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: Why else

rexlunae wrote:
Why else would you have been nervous? Isn't learning the truth something to be excited about? No one is trying to deceive you. If you aren't willing to use reason, then there's no point in anyone talking to you about religion. It won't benefit you or them. What do you want, a poem?
This is a new endeavor for me, hence I was a little nervous.  Plus, I don't know, I thought you might have arguments that hit home for me, but so far, not.


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poem

Roses are red

Violets are blue

God makes no sense

'cuz he saves so few.


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GreyhoundMama wrote: Roses

GreyhoundMama wrote:

Roses are red

Violets are blue

God makes no sense

'cuz he saves so few.

 

All you have to do is ask... 


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sugarfree wrote: This is a

sugarfree wrote:
This is a new endeavor for me, hence I was a little nervous.  Plus, I don't know, I thought you might have arguments that hit home for me, but so far, not.

Surely you must be aware that your feelings are unreliable. If you are not willing to use reason to approach the question of religion, you are at the mercy of your own emotional responses. If you just wait for something to 'hit home', you have no way of knowing that you're really right about religion.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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sugarfree

sugarfree wrote:
GreyhoundMama wrote:

Roses are red

Violets are blue

God makes no sense

'cuz he saves so few.

 

All you have to do is ask... 

Awww, I was hoping you'd respond to her with a poem. That would be a really new way to discuss religion.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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There are ugly things in

There are ugly things in American history.  But are we going to keep beating ourselves over the head because of it, or learn from it and move forward?

 

Says the subscriber to the iron age text. Its in recognition of history that I am so wary of naive imperialist flirtation.

 

There are also many good things about American history.  No country has a 100% spotless record, including atheist country's.

 

Your argument was that American policies support worldwide freedom, and I suggest uncontroversial precedent for doubt in that claim. I could also point out that our imperialist ventures were supported by a belief in the moral superiority of white Christians over brown heathens.

 

And once again, Mao's and Stalin's state capitalist regimes were mired in dogma. Rationalism means rejecting failed ideas, not making excuses for them. I don't know why this has to be pointed out repeatedly.

 

Look at China.

 

One of many homes to outsourced US slave labor. What about it? Oh, right, that was supposed to prove something about Americhristian superiority or some such bollocks.


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why?

Just ask him you say

but I'll not, come what may

'cuz the whole thing makes

no sense, regardless of day.

 

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life


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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
...I believe religion and science can be compatible. I study both and am not chronically confused.

First, I highly recommend that you read the book, "Letter To A Christian Nation", by Sam Harris.

But I find it astounding when otherwise intelligent people infer they see science as being compatible with the bible. I mean, the cognitive dissonance required of such an assertion is truely an amazing aspect of the human mind.

I just saw these clips (two parts) of english comedian Ricky Gervais speaking on Genesis that I think helps to highlight the very real and profound difference between science and biblical teachings, by way of comedy.

Part I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_sfSDCV9Jo&eurl=

Part II:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU1BsFpkNUo&eurl=

 


Apokalipse
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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Why am I a Christian? Because I looked at all the alternatives and Jesus's truths are the ones that held up to the most scrutiny.
really? you looked at all the infinite amount of other alternatives? you must have an infinite amount of time on your hands.
Hinduism? Paganism? Buddhism? Islam? Judaism? Bábism? Taoism? Confucianism? Shinto? Sikhism? Samaritanism? Yazdânism? Manichaeism? Mithraism? Zoroastrianism?Atenism? Caodaism? Chondogyo? Yiguandao? Pastofarianism? invisible-pink-unicornism? Rael? the matrix? Nihlism? no religion?

You have not looked at all the alternatives. Even if you have looked at a lot of them, that doesn't automatically make your religion right.

I'll suppose hypothetically for a minute that Christianity really has rationally and scientifically stood up to scrutiny.

There are plenty of things that you can't prove false. You can't prove that we're not all living inside a computer simulation (the matrix). That doesn't mean we are living inside a computer simulation.

Anyway, as far as scrutiny goes: Have you ever really studied the bible carefully?
do you know how many faults and contradictions there are in it?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
And that's was just the first hit on Google.


todangst
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sugarfree wrote: todangst

sugarfree wrote:
todangst wrote:

Isn't this matter imporant enough for you to do more than a quick search?

  So...yeah, I just did a quick search because I had never studied extra-Biblical accounts of Jesus. 

 

Yes, you did. You did a rather quick, self serving search, and you basically just ignored talking about the information I posted.

Think about that.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


todangst
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kmisho wrote: sugarfree

kmisho wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
I'm listening...

You are not.

 

You said it in 3 words. Thank you.  

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


Apokalipse
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kmisho wrote: sugarfree

kmisho wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
I'm listening...

You are not.

LOL, brilliant.


sugarfree
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Hello all. Thank you for

Hello all. Thank you for joining me on this thread. I have learned from this discussion, and hopefully you have too. Now I am ready to let this thread die a peaceful death. (I can see your comments now..."yeah right, learn something from you?", "she can't handle it", "she dodged the questions", etc. There, I said 'em so you don't have too. Truthfully, this baby is taking too much time to keep alive, I don't want to trade my sugar addiction for an internet addiction.)

See you occasionally on other threads.

Good bye for now.

sugarfree


zarathustra
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The moral of the story:

So what have we learned, class?

The best way to keep your faith is not to listen.


rexlunae
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zarathustra wrote: So what

zarathustra wrote:

So what have we learned, class?

The best way to keep your faith is not to listen.

Amen.

I don't think anything we as atheists say about theism is as powerful a testimony against it as the willfull ignorance of it's followers.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.