Jesus Camp & Friends Of God

meshblorg
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Jesus Camp & Friends Of God

I'm going to rent this soon.  I just saw the trailer on youtube here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE 

This is child abuse and should be illegal.  This is the same type of abuse that muslim extremists do.  This is the same type of brainwashing that creates the 200,000+ child soldiers in Africa. 

 Forcing children towards your religion should also be illegal but this is far more extreme and should be dealt with first.

On a similar note, this is a clip from the HBO Documentary "Friends Of God" that is very similar and equally scary:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aLxrmM91SkE

 In advance I apologize if these have already been posted.


marcustheist
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Child soldiers in Africa? I

Child soldiers in Africa? I believe that's Marxism you're thinking of.

Anyway, 

There is a recurring theme here that if you could force people to stop believing in God, then the world would be safe and peaceful; that lack of religion will bring Utopia.

You forget that Athiests have killed more people in the last few centuries than alll the other "ists"  put together  (French Revolution, Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin's purges, Mao, Pol Pot, assorted African and Latin Am. dictators, Oklahoma City Bombing, Columbine, to name a few, about 45 million dead altogether). Not that I am blaming Atheism or Atheists for these atrocities; I have friends and co-workers who are Atheists and I would never push that burden onto them.

 However, this proves (in a rational way I might add) that a godless society is not by default a peaceful one.

All this talk about burning down churches and ridiculing invisible friends might not be so well founded. 


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Not this shit again...

Not this shit again...


Vessel
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marcustheist wrote: There

marcustheist wrote:

There is a recurring theme here that if you could force people to stop believing in God, then the world would be safe and peaceful; that lack of religion will bring Utopia.

I have not seen the posters here indicate that forcing people to do anything is a good idea. Explaining to theists how their belief is irrational, how religion is dogmatic, and how dogmatism is horribly dangerous, however, seems to be fairly prevelant and a honorable pursuit. 

Quote:
You forget that Athiests have killed more people in the last few centuries than alll the other "ists" put together (French Revolution, Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin's purges, Mao, Pol Pot, assorted African and Latin Am. dictators, Oklahoma City Bombing, Columbine, to name a few, about 45 million dead altogether). Not that I am blaming Atheism or Atheists for these atrocities; I have friends and co-workers who are Atheists and I would never push that burden onto them.

I don't see anyone forgetting or denying that some atheists  have killed people. This happened because of dogmatism as well just other dogmatic belief systems as opposed to religion. This, however, does not mean we should be satisfied while every dogmatic belief system is allowed to flourish free of challenge. People here challenge the unnecessary and dangerous dogmatism of religion.  

Quote:
However, this proves (in a rational way I might add) that a godless society is not by default a peaceful one.

No one has claimed such. 

Quote:
All this talk about burning down churches and ridiculing invisible friends might not be so well founded.

I believe if you see any talk of burning down churches it is probably either being said sarcastically or it is being voiced by people whose views do not coincide with most at this site.

Rididculing invisible friends is always a good idea. Why should they not be ridiculed? 

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


LeftofLarry
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marcustheist

marcustheist wrote:

 

There is a recurring theme here that if you could force people to stop believing in God, then the world would be safe and peaceful; that lack of religion will bring Utopia.

You forget that Athiests have killed more people in the last few centuries than alll the other "ists" put together....

...However, this proves (in a rational way I might add) that a godless society is not by default a peaceful one.

All this talk about burning down churches and ridiculing invisible friends might not be so well founded.

 

The thing is....no atheist has commited murder in the name of atheism.  Most of dictators you have mentioned are just bad men...  but in no way did they kill in the name of atheism.  But there have been plenty of slayings in the name of god. The two do not equate. 

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meshblorg
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Watch the Documentary, then talk...

#1 First watch the documentary Jesus Camp then talk here.  You are trolling and your message has nothing to do with the topic. 

Child soldiers in Africa? I believe that's Marxism you're thinking of.

 Umm no.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  I believe you're completely oblivious to the atrocoties being committed this very second in Africa.

 There is a recurring theme here that if you could force people to stop believing in God, then the world would be safe and peaceful; that lack of religion will bring Utopia.

 We're not forcing.  An enormous portion of our society runs on the basis that there is no God.  A society that the God of the Bible would like would be horrendously cruel and opposite to ours. 

We're all born without the knowledge or concept of God, essentially born atheist.  If religion was not forced upon children by their parents, the population of believing people would shrivel down immensely in a couple generations.

 You forget that Athiests have killed more people in the last few centuries than alll the other "ists"  put together  (French Revolution, Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin's purges, Mao, Pol Pot, assorted African and Latin Am. dictators, Oklahoma City Bombing, Columbine, to name a few, about 45 million dead altogether). Not that I am blaming Atheism or Atheists for these atrocities; I have friends and co-workers who are Atheists and I would never push that burden onto them.

 As another poster has said, no one has killed in the name of atheism.  Saying that they have all been atheists is irrelevent.  All atheists ALL agree on only one issue: the non-existance of God.  To say that atheism leads to evil because Stalin and Hitler didn't believe in God is the same as saying that everyone with a mustasche is cruel and evil.

 There's a quote for this:

 

“Religion,with or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”—Steven Weinberg - Noble Prize winner

Furthermore it is proven that we do not get our morality from the Bible.  The Bible teachings horrible practices like stoning your children to death and slavery.

Morality is far older than the Bible or any book.  Religion didn't invent morality. 

Some of our morality is genetic.  It is natural to feel bad when you see another human being tortured.

The rest has come over time through logic, reason, and the rewards of a more peaceful society for our children.

We are a much more peaceful society today here in America than in the times of the Bible NOT BECAUSE we payed more attention to our holy books.  In fact the Rennaisance and many other secular reformist movements take the most credit for bringing us away from barbaric times like the medievel ages. 

 However, this proves (in a rational way I might add) that a godless society is not by default a peaceful one.

All this talk about burning down churches and ridiculing invisible friends might not be so well founded.

No society is by default a peaceful one.  Rules and regulations and morality that builds over time (like evolution if I might add) is what establishes a peaceful society.

 The founding fathers were geniuses for mandating that the USA be a secular state.  All the rights and rules that are set forth in the constitution are the very reason why our country (in addition to an enormous amount of natural resources) is the richest in the world.

 And Sweden, where there is the least amount of believers, is by no means a war like nation.  Where on the other hand you have Iran, which is a radical religious government.  North Korea is another dictatorship and Jim Jong Ill's evilness has nothing to do with his lack of faith.  Kim does it because he's a selfish evil person but the Iranian government does it and tries to justify it using the Koran.  Huge difference.

 I'll say it again:

“Religion,with or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”—Steven Weinberg - Noble Prize winner

Btw I just finished watching Jesus Camp today and it was horribly frightening.  There was no Church burning or any of that bullshit that you pulled out of your ass.  Stop being a prejudice egotistic troll and watch something practical for a change (stop watching fox news). 


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Recommended

Recommended Reading:

Wayward Puritans, by Kai T. Erikson

(A Study in the Sociology of Deviance)

Macmillan Press 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


marcustheist
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I admit, I was baiting 

I admit, I was baiting  this response. I do not hold Atheism accountable for these atrocities. They were probaboly done for political expediency.

Knowing that, and knowing that most if not all religious atrocities were really done for political reasons, why then does Atheism get a free pass and the Catholic Church does not?  


marcustheist
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Meshblorg, 1. I don't

Meshblorg,

1. I don't watch  Fox  News, I only have basic cable.

2. You're right, I have not seen Jesus Camp. I will.

3. The refrences to church burning and ridicule were in regards to other postings I had seen recently. They had nothing to do with your post. My bad.

4. There is a book titled "Eternity in ther hearts" that refutes the idea that we are born without a concept of God. It was written by people who traveled the world and noticed that cultures who are completely cut off from the rest of the world have the same basic understanding of God. Also, look at Helen Keller's quote when her caregiver was finally able to communicate with her and talked to her about God. 

I also think it's very interesting that Native Americans' belief systems are so close to Christianity. The Iriquois Constitution is a very interesting read. So are Chief Seattle's remarks about  laws being written on their hearts.

What do you think about this? 


marcustheist
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By the way, one question

By the way, one question remains unanswered:

Why is it that "godless" societies like this STILL commit crimes against humaity?  Religion is obviously not the problem. The Bible is correct here that our sin narture is to blame. It is becaue we are human that we do these things; not because we believe in God.


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I personally do not hold

I personally do not hold religion solely responsible for genocide.  Religion is merely one facet of a larger problem... dogmatism.  People can be fanatically dogmatic about any number of things, resulting in a sort of mob mentality in which violence is considered acceptable.

The problem I have with religion is that it often encourages people to value dogamatic belief above rational thought.  As someone quoted above, religion often leads good people to do bad things.  Take suicide bombers, for example... as horrible as the act is, I'm sure that many of those who commit this horrible act honestly believe they are doing so for the greater good.  From the day they are born, they have dogma crammed down their throats.  At some point, they have some charismatic sociopath warp their impressionable minds into believing that killing as many infidels as possible is a good thing.  They believe they will ascend directly to paradise, while those they have killed will be purified through a period of suffering to earn their way into paradise as well.  If this dogma is accepted as fact in the mind of those committing the act, then they honestly see nothing wrong with their actions.

As for the bit about burning down churches... I doubt many of the atheists on this forum would honestly advocate such an act.  I agree with you on this point.  An atheist who burns down a church is no better than a theist who commits violence in the name of god.

 


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marcustheist wrote: I

marcustheist wrote:

I admit, I was baiting  this response. I do not hold Atheism accountable for these atrocities. They were probaboly done for political expediency.

Knowing that, and knowing that most if not all religious atrocities were really done for political reasons, why then does Atheism get a free pass and the Catholic Church does not?  

Because the church did it in the name of their religion.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


meshblorg
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4. There is a book titled

4. There is a book titled "Eternity in ther hearts" that refutes the idea that we are born without a concept of God. It was written by people who traveled the world and noticed that cultures who are completely cut off from the rest of the world have the same basic understanding of God. Also, look at Helen Keller's quote when her caregiver was finally able to communicate with her and talked to her about God.

 Which type of God are you talking about?  A personal one that interacts and communicates to you? A creator of the universe that no longer interfere s (deists believe in this one). 

 Let me quote Einstein, who was a pantheist (meaning he believed that the laws of nature and the universe were "God" and was ridiculed by many religious organizations and leaders because of his stance): 

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. 

This is somewhat new kind of religion.  I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic[resembling or made to resemble a human form].  What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility.  This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mycticism. 

The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.” – Einstein

Also your argument doesn't prove that there's a God but simply that human beings are inclined to believe in one.  If everyone thinks the world is flat or that the universe revolves around the Earth, it doesn't make it true. 

 I think that it's natural for human beings to want to believe in a "creator" of sorts as a sense of comfort or to answer troubling and possibly unanswerable questions like "where did this all come from?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx5RSxHbiZg

Richard Dawkins explains it pretty well^

Skip to about 4min 50sec if you want the answer quickly.


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marcustheist wrote: Why is

marcustheist wrote:
Why is it that "godless" societies like this STILL commit crimes against humaity? Religion is obviously not the problem.

Religion may not be the problem but it is a problem. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, in contrast to atheism.  

Quote:
The Bible is correct here that our sin narture is to blame. It is becaue we are human that we do these things; not because we believe in God.

And also not for lack of belief in god. 

Consider this account closed. It's disgraceful this site has no function to delete an account. I cannot be part of an organization that seeks only to replace the religion of the god of the bible with the religion of "poor me" bleeding heart liberalism. Rational my ass! Not believing in a god is one thing. A rational view of the rest of the world is something else, which isn't found here.