I'd agree about this challenge thing. It seems as arrogant as the religions it's intended to combat. Yet I can't agree that it's an unrealistic goal to try to reconvert people to a natural state. I've not been successful in every attempt I've made by any stretch, but the majority of religious people are only religious because of brainwashing, yet are fully intelligent enough to come out from under the cloud if givin proper opportunity.

I have to disagree. I'm surprised everytime I hear an atheist say we are "being like them" or "we are going too far". I mean we have got to start speaking up. I was so amazed at the young turnout of the Blasphemy videos that it has actually given me some hope that our future may not be heading towards the Dark Ages Part II (some could argue that we are in that era now).

I don't believe it's being manipulative at all since we aren't telling lies to get people to fork over a tithe or to get some kind of tax-free church. The more people feel like they can speak about the things that are taboo in this society the more those things won't be so "wrong" in the future. I just can't believe how things have gotten so out of hand in my lifetime- Breastfeeding is considered "indecent" in most parts of America, along with homosexuality and atheism. I would like to see the tables turned for once in my life. The very discussion of evolution with another mother in my son's class makes her squirm. In real life, we would never walk up to someone and say, "Hey, I deny the Holy Spirit." I don't understand why atheists want to bash these videos when there are plenty of other atrocities in the world. I will just rationalize it as boredom, I guess.

Well said.

The reason I bash the videos is because they accomplish nothing. So you say that what it's accomplishing is showing how it's okay to speak out about atheism. Okay, so make a video that says, "I'm an atheist and I'm proud." Not "The holy ghost can suck my fucking 'O' ring" like some of the people are doing. I mean, it just makes those who hate us, hate us more. And it's almost like we're going backwards in trying to make atheism look like something that is truely decent.

And to address everyone else on the deconversion issue: Deconversion in mass numbers is very unrealistic. So instead of focusing your efforts on bashing religion and deconversion, focus on something more realistic, like how to progress the world for atheists.

Allow me to give an example. There is right now, a nativity scene in front of City Hall in my town. I'm pissed. Now I have two options. I can be rational and take a stand because it is violating the seperation of church and state. Or I can be irrational and start an anti-religious campaign, hoping that these people in city hall will deconvert. Now, the second one is a little illogical for the situation.

The interest of a rational atheist should be to make the world more accepting of atheists, not to make the world more acceptable to fit our views. You people constantly talk about being rational. Well we have to be rational and realize that we're not going to deconvert massive amounts of theists. But we can still make the theists accept us.

Ok... a little more to say...

I would love to see you do your own website sponsoring "Kind and Gentle" atheism.  I imagine there are quite a few atheists who would join such a site, and you could probably organize some events, or newsletters, or something, that would be designed to promote the softer side of atheism.

Since there are quite a few atheists who come on this site decrying our tactics, I would hope they'd be willing to pony up resources to help.

I believe, and I bet that most of the people on this board believe, that diversity is a natural part of life and that everyone will not agree with our approach.  I, for one, would support just about any atheist site that was getting good things done, regardless of their tactics.

Vastet, people don't listen whether they're pissed off or not. You're certainly aware of that.

The point of the Blasphemy Challenge is not to convert people. It's to raise awareness, to encourage other atheists, and to poke fun at one of the contradictions in the Bible.

Is this furthering the cause of atheism? Maybe, maybe not. What if, because of this stunt, 50,000 atheists "come out of the closet" and start making their views known on a local level? What if it inspires 100,000 atheists? Would 100,000 newly active atheists help the cause of separating church and state politically? Definitely. Would political gains by non-Christians help to make America a place where an atheist might be able to hold office? I'm sure they would.

I'm not sure these things will happen, but I'm sure of this... the people who are going to get pissed at this would get pissed at absolutely ANYTHING that atheists did out in the open. We're not interested in them. We're interested in those who have lived their life under the shadow of religion and never thought about what it would be like to just abandon all pretense of belief. We're after those who have been indoctrinated, but have made it 7/10 of the way to disbelief, but need an extra nudge.

Let's face it, if people posted messages on Youtube declaring, I'm an atheist, no one would have cared. No news outlet would cover it. Brian Flemming wouldn't have been interviewed by Fox News people. No discussion would have started. The whole point of the challenge was not to "piss people off" but to open the door to disscusion, which it's done thanks to a little shock value. Nobody insulted any Christians in these videos; they simply declared that they don't believe in the holy spirit. And why is it that when Christians declare their denial of scientific reason, no one stands up and attacks them for "pissing people off?" I think you've got your priorities wrong. You got to stop being a good little lapdog , a good little non-theist and be willing to make your voice heard because there are people out there who not only don't know what an "atheist" is, but don't even know people that don't believe in god exist in the world. I've met these people. It is frightening that they can be so ignorant. So yeah, I say bring on the awareness.

Segregation is not in human nature. People are instinctively inclined to fight against it, and have in every instance of it's existance in history. Always coming from both sides no less, the segregated and the segregators. It is similar to religion in that it's usually based on misinformation, and that education will defeat it. But it didn't evolve with us. It's a relatively recent development in our species.

At any rate, I never said the video was a bad idea, I just thought it seemed a bit arrogant in presentation. "Walk up to people on the streets exclaiming your joy that you deny the holy spirit, and how good it makes you feel inside! "

Can you honestly say you'd react well to someone you don't know off the street getting in your face about something? Forgetting of course that christ isn't the only fiction we're ultimately fighting here, just the more prevelant in our society. They could very well agree with you, then invite you to become a Moslem.

Can you honestly say you'd react well to someone you don't know off the street getting in your face about something? Forgetting of course that christ isn't the only fiction we're ultimately fighting here, just the more prevelant in our society. They could very well agree with you, then invite you to become a Moslem.

As far as I can tell, preachers are the only people who expect others to react well when some unknown person gets in your face about something. As it happens, this challenge is on the internet, where you have to type in the address to go see it. I, for one, don't know any atheists who preach on street corners, and I suspect most people will take the "walk up to people on the street" bit as a jest.  If not, they'll figure it out pretty fast.

I try never to forget that irrationality in all forms is what we're fighting. I agree with you totally there.

Outside of the segregation thing, which I suspect is just a matter of definition, I think we agree on most points, with one exception. I believe that you are correct from a certain perspective, but that doesn't preclude the people doing the challenge from being correct from another perspective! Again... theists are the dogmatic ones. Atheists are supposed to understand that choices are often made between two very similar shades of gray, and that neither choice may be the "perfectly correct" option from all perspectives!

Isn't real free will awesome!

Bah. You don't get what I'm saying, but it's ok. You're assigning moral value to an amoral act, and trying to rename things based on their current values, and that's an after the fact conclusion. I understand what you're getting at, and it doesn't really matter to the whole argument, so we can just drop it. It's a tangent, anyway.

Well I don't think I can convince anyone. I guess we can just agree to disagree. There are quite a few people who have the same views on it I do. I would hardly call it being a "soft" atheist.