I have a question

chainsaw
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I have a question

Before I get into what my beliefs are, or before I can participate in any further discussion, I have a burning question that I would like to ask.

It is this: I noticed that in the video on myspace that asks people to blaspheme against the holy spirit, it makes references to the idea that people either go to heaven or hell based on what they believe. This suggests to me that: either those whose views the video represents believe in the immortality of the soul (or a similar perception.); or that the group of people/set of beliefs that the video is dissagreeing with hold that somehow, after death there is an element that survives death. Now, if I am right in assuming that the idea of the holy spirit comes from The Bible (in which I cannot find a support for the belief of an immortal soul.): either the book hasnt been read by the makers of said video; or I have missed something in my reading of the text. Which one is it? If the former is true then I advise everyone to go back and read The Bible, to check for support for this claim, or, if the latter be the case, I would like to be directed to the scripture in question, please?

It just seems to me that without this being clear, there is no support for the rest of the arguement against the holy spirit, as the claims that you're trying to disprove all either come from a book that none of you has read, or you are taking the beliefs of others as some sort of proof of what the book says. Can any of you clear this up for me, as it seems to employ very irrational reasoning.

Thank you.


Sapient
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  Rules

 

Rules wrote:

Screennames that are misleading may be asked to change their name, such as theists using names like "An Atheist" or "Rational Thinker" or a male using the name "younggirl20."

 

I'm not saying you're a theist, but I can see the logic (which will likely be dealt with by others who have the time).  In accordance with our rules here I'd like to offer you a name change to something more appropriate (so we don't have to choose one knowing very little about you). 

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chainsaw
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Are you suggesting I'm being

Are you suggesting I'm being irrational?


Hambydammit
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The way I read Sapient's

The way I read Sapient's post, he is guessing that you're a theist of some kind, in which case, I think it's fair to say that you hold an irrational belief. Whether you're a generally rational person or not, I don't think anyone could say at this point.

Careful with your definitions! We're sticklers for accuracy around here.

Now, if I am right in assuming that the idea of the holy spirit comes from The Bible

This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:18

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19

And... the one behind the Blasphemy Challenge:

But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Mark 3:29

Ask yourself this. If we are not eternal, how can we commit an eternal sin?

in which I cannot find a support for the belief of an immortal soul.
1 Peter 1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you...

1 Peter 1:9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Matthew 19:16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Matthew 25:46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Hope these references help.

 

 And, by the way... the Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit is a joke, dude.  We don't believe in it, so we're not exactly sticklers for whether or not someone agrees with our way of defining the thing.  It's just a satirical joke designed to highlight one of many irrational beliefs held by certain theists.  If you are a theist and don't believe that way, we can talk about your particular irrational beliefs and ignore the holy spirit thing since it doesn't apply to you.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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chainsaw
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What I'm actually checking

What I'm actually checking for is whether or not there is substance behind this arguement that God doesnt exist, because I'm not interested in irrational reasoning, or people jumping to conclusions about things without properly examining the facts. I dont mean this as a representation of my particular beliefs, but I can see that this is a mostly atheist forum so I addressed my question accordingly.

I dont believe we can have a sensible discussion if we base our decisions on the way we "feel" about something. I want this to be rational, so therefore I am only going to disclose my own beliefs through my logic, and if, within that logic, you can see something irrational or biast then I guess you would have reason to dispute my beliefs based on that bias.

For your first quote from my original post: I assume you mean that this idea did come from The Bible originally, seeing as you have responded with a set of Bible verses.

Secondly, the idea that we cannot commit "eternal sin" because we are not eternal is flawed, as surely a sin is something that offends God (and God is described as being eternal.). So, therefore, within context of the book, this passage holds up logically. It does seem to me that here you are reading into the quote based on what you already believe (or are trying to prove it says.)- whereas, in fact, it does not say this. The thing that would prove to me that The Bible says anything, by the way, is a quote saying something like "Our souls are eternal" or something along those direct lines.

I dont want to bore you by going through every quote you specified in response to the second quote from my original post, but I feel I must respond to the last one you mentioned, as it is the most direct statement about the issue.

Matthew 25:46, which you have quoted correctly, needs some context. It is actually part of a section about the return of Jesus, which starts at Matthew 25:31. The whole section from 25:31 to 25:46 describes what is supposed to happen at his return, it does not, however, mention what is to happen in between to all the people that die. So I am unconvinced that this saying that our soul is eternal.

Finally, if its a joke or not, are you saying you are not prepared to discuss this? Because it would be a shame if that were the case. If the rationality of the arguement I have presented is in question, then question it, go ahead- thats what a discussion is for.


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I'm not unwilling to have a

I'm not unwilling to have a discussion.  I'm still not sure what we're discussing, so it's kind of difficult for me to just jump in.

As for my references, the first set were just to provide a biblical basis for the existence of the holy spirit, which you had asked for.  All I can do in that sense is quote some passages that mention the Great Casper and hope that's enough.  The second... well, as you've pointed out, you can put whatever spin on it you like, and I'm not even remotely interested in discussing that, since (as todangst so often says) any interpretation you would put forth would be necessarily ad hoc.

Since I still don't know what you want to discuss, I guess that's all I really have to say. 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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hello
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RationalTruth wrote:

RationalTruth wrote:

What I'm actually checking for is whether or not there is substance behind this arguement that God doesnt exist"

 

 

This is the topic of discussion


hello
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...

i don't know how to take the last sentence out of the quote. sorry!


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hello wrote: RationalTruth

hello wrote:
RationalTruth wrote:

What I'm actually checking for is whether or not there is substance behind this arguement that God doesnt exist"

 

 

This is the topic of discussion

 

What you need to do first is provide an argument for God existing. Preferably one that hasn't been shredded repeatedly.

 I don't know if anyone here is making arguments for God's non-existence except for asking theists for proof when theists say "God exists."  (which they are unable/unwilling to provide)

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Rational Responders is not

Rational Responders is not only shedding light on flaws in theism in asking theists for proof when theists say "God exists." with the Blasphemy Challenge.  They are making the much stronger claim that God does not exist: "I deny the Holy Spirit."  How did they arrive at that conclusion?


chainsaw
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I think if we get into the

I think if we get into the area of whether or not God exists would take us slightly off topic at this point.

     I accept that the idea that the holy spirit originates in The Bible, I think we're in agreement here?

Hello is right, but so far we are just discussing the book. Theres been no mention of the existance of God. I'd be happy to move on to that, but I do think its a slightly different subject.

 

 


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Ah. Gotcha.

Ah. Gotcha.

Well, the argument that "God doesn't exist" needs to be clarified. If you mean Yahweh, as defined by the bible -- or more correctly, as defined by the interpretations of the bible set forth by the vast majority of its adherents, then the argument is as follows:

1) God is All-Knowing.

2) God is All-Powerful.

3) God created the universe.

3.5) God is good (sorry, left this one out at first.)

4) If 1,2, and 3, Then God must be evil. Since the bible says that God is good, then god does not exist.

5) If God is good, then he is either not 1) or 2). Therefore, God doesn't exist.

6) If God is 1) and 2) then free will cannot exist. Since Free Will exists, God does not.

All of this is strictly talking about one god in particular, and is not particularly useful in talking about the rationality of the "God Belief," where god is defined as a supernatural being outside of the laws of nature. There are a couple of ways to approach this.

1) God either exists or he does not.

2) If he exists, he is either knowable or he is not.

3) If he exists in a way that is quantifiable, then he is natural, and does not exist in the defined way.

4) If he is not quantifiable, then he is unknowable, and any attempt to define him will be necessarily invalid.

The previous argument rests on the truism that faith (in the logical, not the colloquial, sense) and reason are necessarily at odds. You do not have faith that the floor will hold up to your weight -- not in the scientific sense. You have empirical data with which you have made a more or less reliable prediction. Faith in the logical sense is belief in a thing despite evidence to the contrary or lack of evidence in favor of its existence. This is, by definition, illogical, and irrational.

Another way of approaching the broader god belief is in probabilities. While it's true that the existence of an unquantifiable god cannot be disproven, it is also true that the existence of Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot cannot be disproven. If you've never read Russell, it's a good intro to atheism, and you should look into it.

The question is, what is the probability that this god exists? In the scientific sense, it's so small as to be statistically impossible. In the history of science, we have never encountered a set of data that supported the existence of something that defied logic. We have encountered things that were seemingly illogical because we didn't have all the facts, but never has science answered a question with "This thing exists because it is illogical." Given that this has never happened before, the odds of it being true for god are infintesimally small.

To sum up: The Christian God does not exist because he cannot logically exist as defined. A supernatural deity does not exist (with almost complete certainty) because the very nature of the "supernatural" is illogical and statistically a virtual impossibility.

 

 Having said all of that, the burden of proof is still on the person making the god-claim.  If you're going to claim that something exists beyond logic and science, then you have to provide some pretty amazing proof, or you're just being illogical and unscientific.

Those arguments that I made are some typical atheist responses to theist claims.  You have to realize that I, or anyone else here, would make similar arguments against the existence of elves.  If there's no proof, then I may not be able to say with certainty, "Elves don't exist," but... they don't exist.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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chainsaw
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I have to state, once

I have to state, once again, that this is off topic for this discussion- as I started off by questioning what seem to be flaws in the philosophy of the "Blasphemy Challenge" video.

You're rushing ahead here, is the arguement that God doesnt exist based upon the beliefs of some of those that follow The Bible (in which case, it is still a jump to conclude that God does not exist), or is it based on what is directly written in The Bible? If it is the latter, then refer to my original post on the subject.

I assume you are arguing against the claims of those that believe in God? This is a different subject.


Hambydammit
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Shame on me.  I thought

Shame on me.  I thought maybe you had changed your name, as Sapient was suggesting.

So are you satisfied with the biblical references to the holy spirit for your purposes?  (Which, are still unknown to me.)

What else did you want to discuss?  If you want to tackle the response I thought I was making to you, feel free, but I'd rather follow your discussion the way you had set out.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sapient
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hello wrote: They are

hello wrote:
They are making the much stronger claim that God does not exist: "I deny the Holy Spirit." 

We never said God doesn't exist.  We're rejecting a specific god that we know doesn't exist.

 

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sorry for skewing the topic

sorry for skewing the topic of discussion...


Sapient
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RationalTruth wrote:Are

RationalTruth wrote:
Are you suggesting I'm being irrational?

No, I'm suggesting that you don't hold a rational truth, and that you may mislead readers into thinking you are aligned with our team, therefore you have the option to proclaim a new name for us to put on your account, or we will do it ourselves.  I don't want to do that without you out of fairness for you to pick a more appropriate name than I would.

After your next post if you haven't specified a new name, I'll fix it on my own and alert you on how to log in via your email.

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thank you for clarifying.

"We never said God doesn't exist.  We're rejecting a specific god that we know doesn't exist."

thank you for clarifying.