How has being an atheist made you a better person?
Online I had made a youtube video about how atheists are more moral than religious people and someone responded with a video that posed the question, "how has atheism changed you."
So I created a video to respond with my thoughts. I just came off the top of my head and didn't take too much time to think about it, and I know I left a lot of room to improve on what I've said, so I'd like to hear from you. How has being free of theism made you a better person? Or if you think you're not a better person, please explain how you've changed if at all. I directed youtubers to this thread, so if you're a viewer of youtube and want to put your thoughts down in text, please feel free, and welcome aboard.
Here is my video response on the issue, although the jist of what I say is that I think more clearly now.
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
I suppose I'll post some of the responses I get from our myspace bulletin on this issue in this thread:
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
I've been an atheist ever since youth, so by definition, I've always been a good person
Seriously speaking, studying animal behavior, Homo sapiens included, has made me much more tolerant. E.O. Wilson's magnum opus Sociobiology made me a moral person. Hence, science is good for you.
http://www.myspace.com/jussikniemela
Being an atheist has made me a better person in so many ways. Particularly in not believing that there is a far better world waiting for me in the afterlife. Most religious people are waiting for that better world and have given up on this one and I am not. Instead of waiting for heaven I am trying to create a "heaven" here on earth, a material heaven. I cherish my family and loved ones because I know this is the only time that I get to spend with them. I also take care of the environment and donate to charities that I know will help good cause. I also feel responsible for my own actions and I know that there will be real material consequences and that going to church or repenting will not change anything. Only through my own doing will I better any wrong that I have done. I have been atheist since I was 10 years old and my whole family is atheist as well. We all have a great relationship with each other, our spouses, and our loved ones and I believe that being atheist is the reason. We all strive to create a "heaven" on earth.
My background is probably a little different then most maybe I might just be an interesting case study of sorts. I can’t really say how I am different now as an atheist because I never really was religious. My parents didn’t really tell me their position on things, although I was baptized and had relatives give me a crucifix when I was little. In any event religion wasn’t a major part of my life and wasn’t something I explored till my teens. Basically I was an agnostic that hadn’t even been given the question or evidence.
Now that I have looked at evidence, explored religions, god proofs, history, people involved, and philosophy I have formed a position. However how has this position improved my life? Well the position is a by product of reason not the reason I’m rational. The reason I would say is what guides my action and I would argue is one of the most important and positive aspects of how I think. The way I think will change how I make decisions and a level head is important in making a good one.
Ok yeah reason is great, but how has being atheist made a positive impact? For one I’m not following silly laws for no good reason. I rely on realities of the world such as myself, friends, or family and not on a sky daddy when I have a problem. That means something will actually get done. When I have a question I can’t just say, “god did it” and be done. Yes, I rather work harder for the right answer then be in the bliss of ignorance.
The idea of atheism and ideas around it has fueled my thirst for knowledge and given me a greater thirst for more. It is part of the reason I will be a philosopher and hopefully add something to this accident we call the human race. It is the reason why I know so much about logic and how to argue a point and how I came to realize the ideas of words are not always what they seem or being used correctly. It certainly has given me reasons to pick up a book, never mind I think some are full of shit.
It has also given me perspective on certain ideas of government and politics. Such as free speech, what is constitutional, and history of it. Like I nor many people around me knew the history of the pledge or religious based slogans that stain the freedoms the nation is suppose to stand for.
It has given me reason to study complex theories of science that I would probably not have looked into. I’m not an expert on it all, but I can pick out who doesn’t know shit about it real fast. Not only that but I can also pick out what is scientific and what is not even if someone is lying to my face.
Yes, it has hindered a few interactions with theists, but I rather try to find truth and be with others who want truth then live lie for them. Not only that but if you are someone who is willing to question mother fucking god don’t you think that will make it easier to question a mere man?
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758 My ROE: Defend when attacked. Attack when enemy becomes enemy. Enemy becomes enemy when they harm others. http://www.myspace.com/rrstx
Odd, when I was a born-again Christian I was never really pro-life or against abortion because I really bellived God took all of them to Heaven.
Now that I don't have the belief of an afterlife to comfort me, and I realise that I do not have the answers about life or death, life has become precious.
Precious because it's very possible, that this is all there is, and possible that when you die, then that's it.
Really, I don't see how it could be "weird" that a person could turn pro-life when turning agnnostic. However, most people do consider it weird.
I now realise that I no longer have all the answers of life and death like religion trys to give definite answers to. I now realise that we don't KNOW what happens when we die.
Besides, after reading the Old Testament, I realise that the Bible is not pro-life anyway. There is enough "god ordained" baby slaughter to turn one's stomach!
As a whole, I have not changed much since I became an atheist. The way I look at things (not just religion) has changed. Recently I've been starting to feel the brunt of theists' attitudes towards non-religious people. But presently I'm not too worried about it. I've also been marvelling at how people can still believe in any religion; it is amazing, the way they think. But not in a good way. I also now feel kind of concerned for people I know to be devout followers of their religion, like my grandfather for example. Again, overall, I am still myself and don't believe I have noticeably changed much. I'm a firm believer of keeping your religious beliefs to yourself; just another reason I'm in love with Scandinavia.
Vain are the thousand creeds
That move men's hearts, unutterably vain,
Worthless as withered weeds
Or idlest froth amid the boundless main
What a great question, Sapient!
I'm quite different since becoming an atheist, and I believe 95% of the changes have been for the better.
Probably the biggest thing is this: I didn't learn empathy until I left religion. Through the lens of religion, I was able to look at nearly everyone as a product of only one thing -- sin. Therefore, I didn't have to try to put myself in their shoes. If their life was going badly, it was because they were a sinner. What they needed was a sermon, not sympathy!
When I left religion, I was able to look at the world not as a place of good and evil, but a place of better and worse from a certain perspective. Once I learned that people were just animals, and acted based on predictable scientific data, I was able to look at another person's situation and think, "What would I do if I was in their shoes?" Thus, I learned empathy.
Also, as a result of leaving religion, my attitudes towards women have changed completely. It was impossible to not be somewhat sexist as a Christian. I call myself a humanist now... not a feminist, but similar in that I believe that everyone deserves equal respect as a human being.
There are a lot more ways I've changed, but I think those two are the most noticable. Inwardly, I can say that I have very few regrets, and very little guilt about anything I've done in the last ten years, because I make decisions based on logic, not on the dogma of religion. I can also say that the last five years of my life -- the years when I've been openly atheist -- have been the happiest and most fulfilling of my entire life.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- H. G. Wells
Sapient,
I can't really say that being an atheist has changed me in anyway since I havn't believed in God since I was 8 or 9, but I do have a reason why I think atheist are in general more moral then theists. I agree statistical evidence is the best way to illustrate this point and Sam Harris often refers to the UN Development Index which measures a societies social health in a variety of categories(Education, violoent crime, infant mortality etc etc.) and as you pointed out in your video we have hard core statistics to back up this notion that atheists are more moral when you compare a countries religiosity to how well the society fares on the index.
Beyond the statistical evidence, there's also a good philosophical argument that atheists have a much more realistic view of suffering in the world. We do not have our compassion constrained by religious dogma. We see the world and suffering for what it really is. And we can't write off human suffering to "God's Plan". There is no master plan. We all have the same inbuilt human capability for compassion(Dawkins gives a decent argument why this is so), but regardless of where it comes from, the atheist who sees the world as it really is and doesn't have the crutch of God to fall back on is more apt to care about issues of suffering in THIS world. The theist has had their compassion rail-roaded by whatever it says in their special book.
Mark
I've recently become an atheist, and I can proudly say it has made me a better person. I never really believed all the religious mumbo-jumbo, but of course my parents were Catholic, so that made me Catholic. I've always been an atheist in a sense, because I never really believed in "God," but rather pretened to. So I guess I don't know how believing in "God" would feel. But I think it makes be a better person, because instead of believing in a false deity that can make my problems go away, I solve my own problems with my abilities. I never try to get "God" to bail me out. My judgement also isn't clouded because of what "God" might think. I'm also more open-minded then most Christians I know, so that in it self makes me better then them.
"Faith: not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
http://www.myspace.com/JuRbAlOiD155
Granted, I never killed anyone for being of a different religion, but being raised fundy had a negative impact on my morality.
I harshly judged homosexuals and gave my boyfriend an ultimatum: Cut off your gay father...OR ELSE! Similarly, when I was in high school, I cut off a friendship with a boy when I learned he was gay. Years later, after I'd come to my senses, I found out he had died of AIDS. It was too late to even say I'm sorry.
During the last stage of my religious illness, I became a charismatic. My lifelong "personal relationship with Jesus" made me believe I had a direct line to God. I started "discerning spirits" and sensing the presence of demons in other people. I happily joined in when some friends of mine decided we needed to cast a demon out of my best friend's boyfriend. Later, when I began to doubt, my "friends" turned on me and did some spiritual discerning of their own. They decided the demon had left the boyfriend and jumped to me...lovely. To this day, my mother believes that my symptoms of depression can be traced back to the demon that came out of my best's friend's boyfriend.
I was such an obnoxious fucker with my direct line to god. It allowed me to be arrogant with no checks on my behavior. If a person truly believes his or her actions are in line with the will of a god, that person will do whatever he or she wants, believing that the almighty condones it. The conscience becomes disengaged.
Now that I am an atheist, I must take responsibility for my own actions. There is no god to put a rubber stamp on my behavior. If I am obnoxious or arrogant, if I do something to hurt someone else, I must take the blame. I am also forced to THINK about what I say, about what I do. I can't just use that "direct line to god" or "scripture" to determine what is right. Scriptural (and I might add, "direct-line-to-god") morality does not line up with what is best for humankind. It doesn't rely on what creates happiness or suffering. Instead it relies on arbitrary rules written 2000 years ago by a bunch of sexually-repressed men. There is no room for the conscience or for rational thought.
I've heard it said that "Christian" morality is morality from the waist down. That's true...and they can't even get that right! Priest pedophiles, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart...sigh.
Sometimes when I look back on the way I behaved, I wonder what I could have been thinking. But that's the whole point. I wasn't thinking. Or even feeling.
Religion destroys the conscience just as thoroughly as it destroys rational thought.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."—Steven Weinberg.
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YOU SUCK!
How dare you let others be themselves. You should have stuck to your guns. GAY MARRIAGE! WTF? Heterosexuals outnumber gays so by default majority rules just like whites outnumber blacks MAJORITY RULES!
Atheists are outnumbered by Christians so it is our duty to take it up the arse from Christians AND F-ING LIKE IT! I only wish in their needless stereotypes of us kitten barbaquers that they would at least give a reach around.
JEEZE! Tollerance and peace, what the hell good is that unless we can dictate to others. I HATE PEACEMONGERS LIKE YOU!
(Note to Brian37: Did I think that, or type it?)
Contact all the 08 Presidental candidates and remind them of their Constitutional duty to uphold "no religious test" www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/news_activism/8955
I don't think I'm really especially better because of being an atheist. I'm certainly no worse, though, countering the common theist implication that you can't be a good person without faith. I was never much of a believer, drifting gradually through a sort of agnostic deism/weak atheism in high school to stronger atheism in college and later, I was always taught the value of education & science, and I was raised to be a decent person because it's the right thing regardless of the threat of hell or promise of heaven so there was never really any big transition to make.
The couple times a year when I do end up in church, like the upcoming late night Christmas Eve service for example, I tend to not particularly enjoy it much anymore because I'm thinking about the absurdities in the stories and verses rather than just sitting back, zoning out, and enjoying the songs. I'm not sure whether that's a positive or not. I've always had a good bullshit detector and never tolerated it, but I'm much less tolerant of religion as a whole and the retarded arguments theists, including moderates, tend to put forth than I use to be.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song
My First Real Post
My life was very complex at one time.
Let me make it easy mode, so that I may not spend several pages on details alone.
1. When I was young my mother left my father before I knew him.
2. She moved back (me included) to Michigan with her extremely religious family. Heavily christian.
3. Within in a few years I attended regular sunday schools and religious groups daily in worshipping the almighty god.
4. My mother then married a man who tried to kill us after many years of beating my mother and I. Because of this we moved to spain.
5. Spain was equally a religious place, however because of it being a literal new world for me (Seville, Spain) and my mother working in the Worlds Fair Expo 92' I began to understand that the world is of vast amounts of culture and differences, but generally we all worship some sort of god.
6. We then moved back to Michigan when all was safe, after a year or so. My mother then remarried to Patrick whom was a catholic but was very much into Tai Chi, music and art. This again broadened my scope, seeing that even religious people have inner conflicts and a great questioning of themselves.
7. We moved to Pakistan, yes literally. Lahore Pakistan we lived for 1 year because my parents were offered a teaching job. Here I came to witness the muslim religion.
So you can say that I've literally lived in the midst of American Christianity, Spanish Catholics and Muslims in areas like Pakistan and Spain of course all whilst my parents were more or less Catholic, or semi Christian during my entire childhood.
Conclusion: What I came to learn is that this world is far to complex and evolving for religion to be concidered. I have no question that knowing myself an atheist was the right choice. I've experienced more culture then 90% of all children, perhaps more. And though lucky yes, I've come to understand that I cannot choose one spot of this world and say that god is "this" or even "everything" For the ideas of science, the realities of history and the progressive movement coming forth from this last century is the heavy weight in the ring.
How do I feel about myself? Well, concidering my parents after traveling the world as well became more or less atheist/agnostic its clear that seeing the big picture really casts the notion of a god into a dark corner. I'm a very good person with regards to kindness, sure I have flaws like anyone. But that's what I was born with, thats what Im evolving from when I learn more & more each day. I live for knowledge of myself, others and the prosperty of our pale blue dot (earth) not some giant god, which is the greatest lie... ever told, believed. The lie that kills and kills.
That was a good read Josh, you've seemed to experience a lot.
Like others I can't really say how Atheism has changed me, because I have always been one. However one thing I know I get from being an atheist is the gratitude for this world. When talking to a lot of my theist friends, they ask me why I don’t just kill myself now because I don’t believe in anything. I don’t know why they ask me that. Though the thought of this being “it” can at times be depressing I think it allows us to have a much better appreciation for our lives. When you believe in a paradise, I then don’t understand the point of living this life. Another thing pointed out by many is the suffering in this world. Religious people can say its “Gods Plan” and then not feel so horrible about it. As an atheist I find the suffering very real, and don’t understand why more isn’t done to stop it. Those are just some thoughts on why I think atheism makes me a more understanding person.I became an atheist around 7 years ago. Since then Im not sure I'm a better person, but a more healthy one. My confidence has shot up since I stopped telling myself I was a miserable sinner, no matter how good I was.
A while back I took one of those (silly) political quizzes and didnt like what I saw one bit. What knocked me out of my seat was that it said (my impression) that I knew what is moral and had no problem forcing others to conform to it. I never thought of my self as pushy, damn, that was a trait I did not want to have.
And so my journey towards Democratic liberalism begins. Now, "If it harms none, do as you will". Im really close to the center now, which I think is far better than being polarized to one corner.
Maybe I am a better person now, but its thanks to IG and RRS. I wouldnt have been at these sites (that linked to the quizz) if i wasnt an atheist.
We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth.
~ Richard Dawkins
The problem with theism is it allows for people to think they know everything, and not want to learn more. Being an atheist, I have a thirst for knowledge like not many people I know. I'm a person that would rather read an article than play a video game. I actually enjoy learning about things in my spare time. Not just doing mindless activities. It has also allowed for me to create my own set of morals, not just look at a piece of paper for guidance.
Scandanavia rocks. Represent.
Anyway...Being an atheist has shown me to model myself after those I respect (atheists and theists alike). That way I can die knowing I did what I thought was right. If I leave a positive mark than that's enough for me. Because that's what a lot of us want, right? To be remembered.
The secret to eternal happines: It's not all about you.
Atheism has allowed to search for horizons that I was never able to touch as a theist. Of course, we have liberal theists who are open-minded and would not mind looking into the ideologies of others. However, my case was different since I was quite a conservative, always considering scripture as a deadly serious matter. As I still grow today, atheism has taught me respect individuals as they are and not because they are somewhat different. This point in theism can be debated to some point, but as a former-theist who had a rather aggressive view on life, this is how it happened. I have also learned to love life as it is and enjoy it by the moment instead of living to expect to enter heaven in return.
Overall, I guess the main thing that caused this to happen was the fact that I have always been extremely curious....
While I have not really had a specific belief in a God I just assumed there is one and that was good enough. But in recent years I've learned that not believing in God and using the word atheist is nothing to be afraid of. After a while I posed the question to myself, who/what am I if I don't believe in God? I am a good, funny, caring, intellectual. He, that feels pretty good, so what else is there. That's where it gets good.
I cannot be forgiven by anyone other than who I have wronged. Imagine that. No invisible friend to ask for forgiveness. If I've done something wrong only I alone can try to make ammends for that. And unlike Jesus, some people may never forgive me for my actions. As a result I must be as good a person as I can be, making this life the best one I will ever have. I must avoid wrongdoing in the first place. And without direct feedback from this savior how am I to know that I'm forgiven? Did I formulate my prayer properly? Direct feedback from the one I've wronged is far more satisfying.
I have to fight, to get out of debt, for the good job, for the toys I want. I have to strive to better myself. I have to work to make my relationships succeed. Only through my actions will I be awarded good friends. And when I make some of these life achievements there is an overwhelming sense of pride, something I could never have if it were all the will of a God.
I am not better than you. I am not chosen. I am just a man. I'm not at a higher level of existance than anyone else due to my relationship with an invisible friend. The realization that there is only me, and 6.5 billion other individuals, interacting, or choosing not to, is by itself amazing.
I'm not nervous or paranoid. I'm not looking over my shoulder checking to see if I've done something to upset this invisible friend.
Atheism for me is comfortable and refreshing.
Being an athiest did little for me. It allowed me to live a life believing that immorality, violence, drugs, and basically being an asshole was...okay. Why be an athiest when I can believe in a God, whether that exists or not, and have my life feel....better. It's a drive. It's something pushing me to say, hey, lets be a good person. Maybe that will make other be good or at the very least decent people. I ask myself, why is society corrupt? Because we have made it to be. You and I. Your mother or father maybe(God bless all you good mothers and fathers by the way) God is something, someone, who is trying to create a worldy good. Us humans have just been exploited for 1900 years of humanity by a system that was meant to be corrupt. Jesus Christ didn't form the lines of the 3rd and 4th Crusades. If any of you were really so rational as I am, then you could maybe understand the fact that God, IF real, didn't cause the fucking flood. You did. I did. The natural tendency of man to sin. That is what caused it. If you Christian naysayers are bashing Christians who just so happen to think that hey, maybe something other then science is the truth, why not believe in it, then Jesus Christ didn't die only for them, but for you. For a person like Salient. I watched 3 minutes of that movie and needed no more to decide that this person never even gave Jesus a chance. He loved you every time you prayed, but did you love him? I don't know and I don't care. If you just try to experience, good. It's worth a shot. But if you just don't care enough about the fact and that just maybe, MAYBE it could make the world better, to just BELIEVE or even CONSIDER something so grand as the perfect conception of God, then why do I really care to even watch a 7 minute video on what you are saying Salient. How much more are you essentially believing that everything the Bible is saying is completely bullshit, if you just use the completely Dogmatic context of such a book. It was the Bible, probably, just probably not written by the hand or spoken by the hand of God. Not the Christian god which you all hate, but God. Ask yourself that, then come to me and really tell me to my face your argument. Because if you are willing to argue that, then I am a warrior of words. For that is all I can be to even have a shot at reaching MY desire. And that is not money, or having a nice TV to watch Georgia football(go Dawgs). My desire is for the world to be a better place. Even if I proclaim myself to believe in Jesus Christs conviction and resurrection, then am I really that low of a person in this society? I believe not for there are many people, much smarter and much slower then I am who can feel how I feel about the world, with any religion and any God. And that is Theism my friends. That is why being a theist has made me a better person.
1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.
We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth.
~ Richard Dawkins
My story is a little unusual. I was raised from an early age in a very secular fashion. One of my earliest childhood memories was watching Carl Sagan's 'Cosmos' with my father on Saturday afternoons. I attended a United church with my Grandmother and my mother on Xmas and Easter, simply because it was the done thing. My Grandmother did attend church regularly, I suspect mostly for the social aspects, and to hang with her bridge buddies.
Sometime around my 13th birthday, my dad decided it was important to go to church. He had just lost both his parents rather suddenly, and gone through a business failure. We've never talked about the nature of his 'epiphany' but clearly there was one. My dad decided that the only 'right' church was the Anglican church (him being British) and so off we all went. I was quickly entered into confirmation classes (passed with flying colours), was an altar boy (not in the Catholic sense) and played the piano/organ for services.
Then, my parents started getting rather charismatic - into faith healing, and the 'miracle' at Medjugoria (Mary appearing to some Hungarian chicks) - and their circle of friends became more and more fundamentalist in their approaches (discussions of the 'End Times' etc...) By 15, I decided that my parents were whackjobs, and became anti-religion. I can't say 'atheist' because I didn't understand the term at the time - but I knew definitely what I DIDN'T want to be a part of.
What turned me 'atheist' was my senior year high school teacher. I had written a paper attacking Mormons for their beliefs - because I found some tracts lying around the house that talked about how whacked out THEY were. The paper was an obnoxious attack, which assumed Christianity as I understood it was 'right' and Mormonism was 'wrong'. My teacher wouldn't accept the paper, and assigned me Carl Sagan's 'The Dragons of Eden'. That book changed my life. Right there and then, I began devouring all of Sagan's work, which led me to Gould and Dawkins (I'm a much bigger fan of Dawkins than Gould) the Skepticsm movement etc...
So - how am I a better person for becoming an atheist? First and foremost, I'm more open to other ideas. Rather than dismissing a set of beliefs out of hand, I am sincerely open to learn more about things before simply saying 'Wrong!'. (Of course, I now know enough about certain belief systems that most of the arguments are repetative and don't bring anything new or compelling to the table.) I am now more level-headed and a much better critical thinker. I have a pretty well-developed 'baloney detection kit' which I never needed when I was infected with the illness known as religion. I also have more self-confidence in how I lead my life. I no longer can hide behind an invisible friend to protect me, I no longer can assume that there is something better waiting for me if I screw up my life here. So, I now think through my thoughts and actions, and live for the moment. I sincerely feel that an atheist worldview is more psychologically 'healthy' and definitely far more personally empowering than a theistic one.