A response to ALMALHAMAH

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A response to ALMALHAMAH

This was taken from the Dawkins page.

I decided to start a new thread.


LeftofLarry
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ALMALHAMAH wrote: You are

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

You are free to show me where in the Quran or hadith or Sharia Law does it justify Rape as a punishment for any crime.

Our religion forbids premarital sex, so how would it make sense to condone rape?

My stats are not convoluted or distorted, america has the highest rape rate amoung the world.

Let me go ahead and indulge you on your shortsightedness that is obviously caused by your blind faith.

As in everything else, there is much more to things than meets the eye. Let me attempt to show you how islam is extremely detrimental to women and how it is used to justify rape.

You are correct that no where in the quran or hadith or sharia law do they mention rape as completely harmless...well..specifically, but lets look at this issue a bit further than a non-critical mind would do..

Let me explain something: it is the intrinsic ideology behind all abrahamic religions that women are to be treated as second class citizens. This type of mentality leads to misogynism, and in some serious cases..rape. Islam is facilitating the justification of women being raped...here's how:

The qu'ran:

Quote:
It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. 2:187

Here we see a man being allowed many wives, a sign that it's ok for a man to have many wives, but where does it talk about a woman having many husbands? So there is a precept notion that women are undoubtedly much like material things a man can have. Setting up the stage for a road that can lead to the justification of rape.

Quote:
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will 2:223

And so here we have a passage again degrading women to a man's property. A man can essentially rape his wives (and this defined by the fact that if a woman does not want to have sex with her husban, but her husband forces herself on her, it's rape). But of course this rape would be justifiable according to this passage in the Qu'ran.

Quote:
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, 2:282

this passage clearly shows how women are worth 1/2 as men.

Quote:
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess 4:24

Hmm...sounds like a predispository statement to allow rape. Notice how none of these are giving women a voice. The context is completely patriarchical.

Quote:
Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. 4:43

so, if you had sex with a woman, because obviously they are dirty, you are not allowed to pray..hmmm interesting.

Quote:
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. 4:34

This speaks for itself....

Quote:
Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. 11:78

This references Lot offering his daughters to a gang of angel rapists.

Quote:
They said; Have we not forbidden you from (entertaining) anyone?
He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so). 15:70-71

Again referencing Lot offering his daughters to a gang of angel rapists.

You know..I can go on and on..but let me talk about something more than just hidden obscure passages in the Qu'ran.

Let me discuss this: Shari'ah Law

Quote:
"Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari'ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the "crime". If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari'ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery.

A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander.

For the crime of slander, shari'ah prescribes a punishment of 80 lashes. On top of that, the woman will be charged with adultery, and is thus threatened with the death penalty, if she is married. In case, she is unmarried, the "adultery" counts as immoral behaviour and is punished with 100 lashes. This is at least what the criminal code of January 2000 of the Nigerian state Zamfara says.

In the case of rape it may thus happen - and in most cases this is what seems to happen - that the victim has to prove that she was raped. One can argue about moral attitudes. In our world it sometimes, too, is difficult to find a consensus of what is right and what is wrong. In the West, too, until a couple of years ago, a rape victim had difficulties to assert herself in court. As in: She must have provoked it with her behaviour. Here, too, there are contentious issues concerning the burden of proof and the rule of presumed innocence to the disadvantage of the victim. However, this does not lead to the death penalty for the women. And even, if one believes that s/he has the right to judge over the morality of someone else, the type of punishment, i.e. death by stoning, remains absolutely unacceptable. Regardless of the fact that it should be the rapist who should be punished in the first place, and not vice versa.

Shari'ah even prescribes the size of the stones with which the convict is to be killed: not too small, because then they would not cause death, but not to large either, because then the convict probably dies as soon as the first stone hits. By the way, the Qur'an does not even have that kind of punishment for adultery: The Qur'an speaks of 100 lashes and that is that, though cruel enough (see Sura 24,2 and 24,3).

At the beginning of 2002, four stoning verdicts against women in Islamic states were announced: two in Nigeria, one in Sudan and one in Pakistan. Each woman had been charged with adultery.

(taken from: http://www.steinigung.org/artikel/sharia_adultery_rape.htm)

THis is what an islamic theocracy leads to....so just because you see yourself as perhaps a righteous muslim, you can't sit here and tell me that Islam is exactly righteous when it comes to women's rights. It is the basic foundation that women are subjugated to men that goes uncriticized within the muslim community. Women that try to fight for their rights are in turn ostracized by their community, if not worse.

You cannot tell me that Sharia law is used righteously, because we have seen it doesn't.

Here is some more from http://www.steinigung.org/artikel/sharia_adultery_rape.htm

Quote:
The case of Safiya Husaini

35-year old divorcee Safiya Husaini from the Northern Nigerian state Sokoto had been reported to the police for extramarital sexual intercourse during her pregnancy. Consequently, she was sentenced to death by stoning by the Islamic court of the town of Gwadabawa on 14 October 2001. It would have been the first case ever in Nigeria of an execution under Islamic law. This sentence and this type of punishment quite clearly violates the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading treatment or Punishment, both ratified by the Republic of Nigeria.

At the beginning, Safiya Husaini had testified that she had been raped by a 60-year old man of her village. The man was acquitted for lack of evidence. Later Safiya, who has five children, changed her testimony and declared that her divorced husband was the father of the child.

The protest and discussion of the case of Safiya Husaini did not lead to an overall reassessment of the application of this type of punishment for adultery, as some might have hoped. On the contrary, shortly before Husaini's acquittal, on 22 March 2002, 35-year old Amina Lawal was sentenced to death by stoning for the same "offence" by a shari'ah court in the Nigerian federal state of Katsina. The court in Bakori considered the extramarital sexual relationship of the divorced women a proven fact. Amina Lawal, too, had been reported to the police while pregnant. The charge against the man who has been named as the father was dropped. Amina Lawal had given birth to a child one and a half years after her second divorce. A women's organisation announced the appeal was to be brought before an appeals court in the beginning of April 2002. In the meantime, the government of Katsina announced that protests will neither influence the trial nor the government.

International protest helped in the case of 18-year old Christian Abok Alfa Akok in the West-Sudanese town Darfur who was charged with adultery and sentenced to death by stoning on 8 December 2001. In March 2002 the verdict was transformed into 75 lashings to be carried out immediately. Interesting here is the fact that by convicting a Christian this case stands in direct contrast to statements by Islamists that shari'ah is not applicable to non-Muslims. This is a tendency which can also be observed concerning issues such as alcohol prohibition, dress codes and gender separation on public transport.

In April 2002 a stoning verdict was reported in south-western Pakistan. Apparently, Zafran Bibi who originally had accused her brother-in-law of rape, had been convinced by the police to admit that she had committed adultery. In order to prove the rape, four male witnesses would have been necessary as well. After protests from human rights groups, the supreme court of Pakistan allowed an appeal and ordered the temporary suspension of the execution in the beginning of May. So far, death penalties in accordance with the respective Pakistani law have not been carried out. However, "lynch-law" is known to have been applied to adulterers.

Generally, alongside the revival and re-politisation of Islam, a tendency of introducing shari'ah law has been recorded in recent decades. This mainly concerns countries such as Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh. For most Muslims, shari'ah is an indispensable part of their faith in connection with the revelations of the Qur'an and other fundamental Islamic sources of law. A contradiction is felt between the understanding of the UN declarations and the regulations of shari'ah, particularly concerning issues such as religious freedom, gender equality and cruel and inhuman forms of punishment. In religiously mixed countries such as Nigeria these tensions divides the nation.

Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasn’t raped, so she must be guilty of zina.

How do you, as a muslim justify this?

Read more here:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5676
http://www.steinigung.org/artikel/sharia_adultery_rape.htm
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

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ALMALHAMAH
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LeftofLarry wrote:You are

LeftofLarry wrote:
You are correct that no where in the quran or hadith or sharia law do they mention rape as completely harmless...well..specifically, but lets look at this issue a bit further than a non-critical mind would do..

Too bad you could not find ANYTHING CONDONING RAPE in the Quran NOR the Hadith.

In fact let me burry your argument even further:

Quran 17:32
And come not near to the unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a Fâhishah [i.e. anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allâh forgives him).

Quran 23:5-7
5. And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)

6. Except from their wives or that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;

7. But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors;

I'm glad we got that cleared premarital sex = ilegal, so what do you think the verdict is on rape???

Quote:
Let me explain something: it is the intrinsic ideology behind all abrahamic religions that women are to be treated as second class citizens.

195. So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), "Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another, so those who emigrated and were driven out from their homes, and suffered harm in My Cause, and who fought, and were killed (in My Cause), verily, I will remit from them their evil deeds and admit them into Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise); a reward from Allâh, and with Allâh is the best of rewards."

It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million

http://magic-city-news.com/printer_2694.shtml

OHH THE HORROR!!!!

Quote:

This type of mentality leads to misogynism, and in some serious cases..rape. Islam is facilitating the justification of women being raped...here's how:

The qu'ran:

It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. 2:187

Here we see a man being allowed many wives, a sign that it's ok for a man to have many wives, but where does it talk about a woman having many husbands? So there is a precept notion that women are undoubtedly much like material things a man can have. Setting up the stage for a road that can lead to the justification of rape.

No you are misunderstanding it, in fact, i would even claim you have not read the quran because even a non-muslim can understand this: On the NIGHT OF THE FAST, which means once you break your fast at night, you may have sex with your wife or wives.

Actually if you read the quran you would have encountered this verse:

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only ONE, or that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." [Quran 4:3]

I don't see any religion saying marry only one, execpt islam.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS:

United States Population:
298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)

total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2006 est.)

which means that 0.03*298,444,215= almost 9 million MORE women TOTAL THAN MEN IN AMERICA.

IF all men were to marry ONLY ONE woman there would leave 9 million more women SINGLE with NO HUSBANDS.

what's your suggestion, telling all 9 million to become lesbian??

What do you think?

Quote:
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will 2:223
And so here we have a passage again degrading women to a man's property. A man can essentially rape his wives (and this defined by the fact that if a woman does not want to have sex with her husban, but her husband forces herself on her, it's rape). But of course this rape would be justifiable according to this passage in the Qu'ran.

Obviously you NEVER read the quran and you are just posting off of inacurate anti-islamist websites. Amazing.

I hope you know the difference between WIVES and WOMEN:

Quran 2:223. Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allâh to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allâh, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad SAW).

This one took half a minute to debunk, all i had to do was look up the verse you MISQUOTED.

Quote:
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, 2:282

this passage clearly shows how women are worth 1/2 as men.

No, it does not say Two women are worth one man, that is your interpretation of it.

In case of court, the witnesses need be two women and a man or two men. Simple case you are taking out of context.

Does it mention all asspects men are equal to two women? NO. that is what you are inferring there buddy. Only in this Case of Court witnesses need be two men or one man and two women.

This will be continued..

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
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continued.. Quote:And all

continued..

Quote:
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess 4:24

Hmm...sounds like a predispository statement to allow rape. Notice how none of these are giving women a voice. The context is completely patriarchical.

It does not say rape.

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: "Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity). (24:33)" (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Book 12, Number 2304)"

In Islam, men are not allowed to rape their slave-girls. Allah Almighty clearly prohibited it in Noble Verse 24:33. In Islam, slavery is also not allowed.

Quran 24:33
And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allâh enriches them of His Bounty. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you know that they are good and trustworthy. And give them something yourselves out of the wealth of Allâh which He has bestowed upon you. And force not your maids to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the (perishable) goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly).

Man, this is too easy debunking your myths and lies.

Quote:
Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving. 4:43

so, if you had sex with a woman, because obviously they are dirty, you are not allowed to pray..hmmm interesting.

Once again you MISQUOTED to serve your anti-muslim case. Don't you ever read the quotes before you post them?

Quran 4:43.
{ O you who believe! Approach not As­Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter, nor when you are in a state of Janâba, (i.e. in a state of sexual impurity and have not yet taken a bath) except when travelling on the road (without enough water, or just passing through a mosque), till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands (Tayammum)[]. Truly, Allâh is Ever Oft­Pardoning, Oft­Forgiving. }

Wow so you don't take a bath after you have sex?? THATS DIRTY!

Quote:
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. 4:34

This speaks for itself....

you misquoted for the 3rd time... try reading what you post first:

Quran 4:34
{ Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great. }

Ohh yea you are right man, WOMEN ARE NATURALLY PHYSICALLY STRONGER THAN MEN AND WOMEN ARE THE PROTECTORS OF MEN (sarcastic tone).

Quote:
Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. 11:78

This references Lot offering his daughters to a gang of angel rapists.

They said; Have we not forbidden you from (entertaining) anyone?
He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so). 15:70-71

Again referencing Lot offering his daughters to a gang of angel rapists.

Quran 11:78
And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to commit crimes (sodomy, etc.), he said: "O my people! Here are my daughters (i.e. the daughters of my nation), they are purer for you (if you marry them lawfully). So fear Allâh and degrade me not as regards my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"

Lut (pbuh) offered his daughters as women to marry, you know in all abrahamic religions fornication is illegal so what you are inferring is invalidated.

Quote:

You know..I can go on and on..but let me talk about something more than just hidden obscure passages in the Qu'ran.

you have done a poor job so far, all you posted was misquoted texts of the quran and twisted meanings of it.

you are free to look for more, debunking these are easy.

continued...

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
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LeftofLarry wrote:Let me

LeftofLarry wrote:

Let me discuss this: Shari'ah Law

Wow so quick to change subjects.. i thought we were deriving examples from the quran and hadith?

Quote:
"Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari'ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the "crime". If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari'ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery.

A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander.

For the crime of slander, shari'ah prescribes a punishment of 80 lashes. On top of that, the woman will be charged with adultery, and is thus threatened with the death penalty, if she is married. In case, she is unmarried, the "adultery" counts as immoral behaviour and is punished with 100 lashes. This is at least what the criminal code of January 2000 of the Nigerian state Zamfara says.

In the case of rape it may thus happen - and in most cases this is what seems to happen - that the victim has to prove that she was raped. One can argue about moral attitudes. In our world it sometimes, too, is difficult to find a consensus of what is right and what is wrong. In the West, too, until a couple of years ago, a rape victim had difficulties to assert herself in court. As in: She must have provoked it with her behaviour. Here, too, there are contentious issues concerning the burden of proof and the rule of presumed innocence to the disadvantage of the victim. However, this does not lead to the death penalty for the women. And even, if one believes that s/he has the right to judge over the morality of someone else, the type of punishment, i.e. death by stoning, remains absolutely unacceptable. Regardless of the fact that it should be the rapist who should be punished in the first place, and not vice versa.

Shari'ah even prescribes the size of the stones with which the convict is to be killed: not too small, because then they would not cause death, but not to large either, because then the convict probably dies as soon as the first stone hits. By the way, the Qur'an does not even have that kind of punishment for adultery: The Qur'an speaks of 100 lashes and that is that, though cruel enough (see Sura 24,2 and 24,3).

At the beginning of 2002, four stoning verdicts against women in Islamic states were announced: two in Nigeria, one in Sudan and one in Pakistan. Each woman had been charged with adultery. (taken from: http://www.steinigung.org/artikel/sharia_adultery_rape.htm)

THis is what an islamic theocracy leads to....so just because you see yourself as perhaps a righteous muslim, you can't sit here and tell me that Islam is exactly righteous when it comes to women's rights. It is the basic foundation that women are subjugated to men that goes uncriticized within the muslim community. Women that try to fight for their rights are in turn ostracized by their community, if not worse.

You cannot tell me that Sharia law is used righteously, because we have seen it doesn't.

The fact is you didn't post anything about shari'a law except flogging of the guilty parties involved.

Its cute you site your source as an anti-islamic website and filled with lies.

No wounder people are so ignorant to islam they don't know shit about it.

So interesting how you are complaining about women's rights, but i never heard any woman complain their religion is opressive. Only the misguided sexists that control them are.

You REALLY want to learn about women's rights in Islam, READ from an ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
http://muttaqun.com/womenframes.html
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/herrights/womensrights.htm

Islam actually liberated women in arabia.

Quote:
The case of Safiya Husaini

35-year old divorcee Safiya Husaini from the Northern Nigerian state Sokoto had been reported to the police for extramarital sexual intercourse during her pregnancy. Consequently, she was sentenced to death by stoning by the Islamic court of the town of Gwadabawa on 14 October 2001. It would have been the first case ever in Nigeria of an execution under Islamic law. This sentence and this type of punishment quite clearly violates the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading treatment or Punishment, both ratified by the Republic of Nigeria.

At the beginning, Safiya Husaini had testified that she had been raped by a 60-year old man of her village. The man was acquitted for lack of evidence. Later Safiya, who has five children, changed her testimony and declared that her divorced husband was the father of the child.

The protest and discussion of the case of Safiya Husaini did not lead to an overall reassessment of the application of this type of punishment for adultery, as some might have hoped. On the contrary, shortly before Husaini's acquittal, on 22 March 2002, 35-year old Amina Lawal was sentenced to death by stoning for the same "offence" by a shari'ah court in the Nigerian federal state of Katsina. The court in Bakori considered the extramarital sexual relationship of the divorced women a proven fact. Amina Lawal, too, had been reported to the police while pregnant. The charge against the man who has been named as the father was dropped. Amina Lawal had given birth to a child one and a half years after her second divorce. A women's organisation announced the appeal was to be brought before an appeals court in the beginning of April 2002. In the meantime, the government of Katsina announced that protests will neither influence the trial nor the government.

International protest helped in the case of 18-year old Christian Abok Alfa Akok in the West-Sudanese town Darfur who was charged with adultery and sentenced to death by stoning on 8 December 2001. In March 2002 the verdict was transformed into 75 lashings to be carried out immediately. Interesting here is the fact that by convicting a Christian this case stands in direct contrast to statements by Islamists that shari'ah is not applicable to non-Muslims. This is a tendency which can also be observed concerning issues such as alcohol prohibition, dress codes and gender separation on public transport.

In April 2002 a stoning verdict was reported in south-western Pakistan. Apparently, Zafran Bibi who originally had accused her brother-in-law of rape, had been convinced by the police to admit that she had committed adultery. In order to prove the rape, four male witnesses would have been necessary as well. After protests from human rights groups, the supreme court of Pakistan allowed an appeal and ordered the temporary suspension of the execution in the beginning of May. So far, death penalties in accordance with the respective Pakistani law have not been carried out. However, "lynch-law" is known to have been applied to adulterers.

Generally, alongside the revival and re-politisation of Islam, a tendency of introducing shari'ah law has been recorded in recent decades. This mainly concerns countries such as Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh. For most Muslims, shari'ah is an indispensable part of their faith in connection with the revelations of the Qur'an and other fundamental Islamic sources of law. A contradiction is felt between the understanding of the UN declarations and the regulations of shari'ah, particularly concerning issues such as religious freedom, gender equality and cruel and inhuman forms of punishment. In religiously mixed countries such as Nigeria these tensions divides the nation.

Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasn’t raped, so she must be guilty of zina.

Read more here:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5676
http://www.steinigung.org/artikel/sharia_adultery_rape.htm
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

How do you, as a muslim justify this?

First of all i think your sites are hillarious as credible sources:

(conservative propaganda) http://www.frontpagemag.com/

(not even an english based website) http://www.steinigung.org/

(Sign the Petition:NO to Political Islam, YES to Human Rights, no comment needed) http://www.ntpi.org/html/statement.html

Second, you have failed to show me sharia law where it accepts rape. all you have managed to do is show a couple of countries with misguided applications to Shari'a law.

Muslims, christians, jews were living in harmony for almost 1000 years after Islam spread out. Nobody was complaining then.

Did you even know that jewish rabbis and christian priests begged Israel not to take over, because of how fairly treated and just they lived under Islamic law: Shari'a.

Quotes from Rabbi Baruch Kaplan "Therefore it’s necessary to set the record straight about the accusations that the Palestinians were terrible killers who liked attacking Jews. This was never the situation at all!

..This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed...

http://www.theunjustmedia.com/quotes_from_many_respected_rabbi.htm

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


GlamourKat
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ALMALHAMAH wrote:LeftofLarry

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
LeftofLarry wrote:

Let me discuss this: Shari'ah Law

So interesting how you are complaining about women's rights, but i never heard any woman complain their religion is opressive. Only the misguided sexists that control them are.

You REALLY want to learn about women's rights in Islam, READ from an ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
http://muttaqun.com/womenframes.html
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/herrights/womensrights.htm

I visited http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm .....
and clicked on a link to "How to Make your Wife Happy"....

And some of this stuff would not make me happy..... Or any woman I know. Bold is my emphasis.

"17. Patience and Mildness
* Problems are expected in every marriage so this is normal. What is wrong is excessive responses and magnifying problems until a marital breakdown.
* Anger should be shown when she exceeds the boundaries of Allah SWT, by delaying prayers, backbiting, watching prohibited scenes on TV, etc..
* Forgive the mistakes she does to you (See item 18).
* How can you best correct her mistakes?

1- First, implicit and explicit advice several times.
2- Then by turning your back to her in bed (displaying your feelings).
Note that this does not include leaving the bedroom to another room, leaving the house to another place, or not talking with her.
3- The last solution is (when allowable) lightly hitting her. In this
case, the husband should consider the following:
- He should know that sunnah is to avoid beating as the Prophet
PBUH never beat a woman or a servant.
- He should do it only in extreme cases of disobedience, e.g.
refusing intercourse without cause frequently, constantly not
praying on time, leaving the house for long periods of time
without permission nor refusing to tell him where she had been,
etc..

- It should not be done except after having turned from her bed and
discussing the matter with her as mentioned in Qur'an .
- He should not hit her hard injuring her, or hit her on her face or
on sensitive parts of her body.
- He should avoid shaming her such as by hitting her with a shoe,
etc."

So I visited the "How To Make Your Husband Happy" site....

Where I found these gems of humanity, love and equality.......

"4- Intercourse
* Hasten for intercourse when your husband feels compulsion for it.
* Keep your body clean and smelling good as possible including cleaning
yourself of released fluids during intercourse.
* Exchange loving phrases with your husband.
* Leave your husband to fully satisfy his desire.
* Choose suitable times and good occasions for exciting your husband,
and encouraging him to do intercourse, e.g. after returning from a
travel, weekends, etc.

7- Appreciation
* By the saying of the prophet, the majority of people in hell were women because they were ungrateful and deny the good done to them.

9- Compliance to Him
* In all what he commands you
, unless it is prohibited (Haram).
* In Islam, the husband is the leader of the family, and the wife is his
support and consultant.

10-Pleasing Him If He Is Angry
* First off, try to avoid what will guarantee his anger.
* But if it happens that you can't, then try to appease him as follows:
1- If you are mistaken, then apologize.
2- If he is mistaken then:
# Keep still instead of arguing or
# Yield your right or
# Wait until he is no longer angry and discuss the matter peacefully
with him.
3- If he was angry because of external reasons then:
# Keep silent until his anger goes
# Find excuses for him, e.g. tired, problems at work, someone insulted him
# Do not ask many questions and insist on knowing what happened, e.g. 1) You should tell me what happened? 2) I must know what made you so angry. 3) You are hiding something, and I have the right to know.

14-Patience and Emotional Support
* Be patient when you face poverty and strained circumstances.
* When you face calamities and disasters that may happen to you, your husband, your children, relatives or properties, e.g. diseases,
accidents, death, etc.
* When facing hardships in Da'wah (imprisonment, getting fired, arrested, etc.), be patient and encourage him to keep on the path of Allah and remind him of paradise.
* When he mistreats you, counteract his ill-treatment by good treatment

16-Good Housekeeping
* Keep it clean, decorated and well arranged.
* Change house arrangements from time to time to avoid boredom.
* Perfect of food and prepare healthy foods.
* Learn all the necessary skills for managing the house, e.g. sewing.
* Learn how to raise children properly and in an Islamic way."

Have I misinterpreted these in any way? Is there another way to interpret the hitting of a "disobedient wife" for denying sex or watching "forbidden" TV? Or obeying your husband in all he commands? A lot of that advice is just good advice for living with someone and being married, but a great deal more of it IS sexist, I'm afraid. The submissive little wife, only allowed her say when her man ALLOWS it. Cook, clean, put out.......


ALMALHAMAH
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Quote:Have I misinterpreted

Quote:
Have I misinterpreted these in any way? Is there another way to interpret the hitting of a "disobedient wife" for denying sex or watching "forbidden" TV? Or obeying your husband in all he commands? A lot of that advice is just good advice for living with someone and being married, but a great deal more of it IS sexist, I'm afraid. The submissive little wife, only allowed her say when her man ALLOWS it. Cook, clean, put out.......

Wow you skipped quite a lot there, ill asume you agree with the ones you ommited.

I guess for you it is okay for a wife to be disobedient and disrespectfull to her husband, makes sense.

If its sexist rules, try living with your boyfriend and see if he will tollerate your disrespect, disobedience, and see if he will help you raise your children (if you will have one).

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Voided
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I thought I might be

I thought I might be interesting to see it from a mans point of view. uh one that would want a indepent women and would only hit a women if she starts trying to kill him.

GlamourKat wrote:
How to Make your Wife Happy

17. Patience and Mildness
* Anger should be shown when she exceeds the boundaries of Allah SWT, by delaying prayers, backbiting, watching prohibited scenes on TV, etc..
* Forgive the mistakes she does to you (See item 18).
* How can you best correct her mistakes?


I would praise her if she exceeded bounds.

I would criticize her if I disagreed, but I would never expect her to just agree to it like I'm the shit.

Quote:
3- The last solution is (when allowable) lightly hitting her. In this case, the husband should consider the following:
- He should know that sunnah is to avoid beating as the Prophet
PBUH never beat a woman or a servant.
- He should do it only in extreme cases of disobedience, e.g.
refusing intercourse without cause frequently, constantly not
praying on time, leaving the house for long periods of time
without permission nor refusing to tell him where she had been,
etc..

- It should not be done except after having turned from her bed and
discussing the matter with her as mentioned in Qur'an .
- He should not hit her hard injuring her, or hit her on her face or
on sensitive parts of her body.
- He should avoid shaming her such as by hitting her with a shoe,
etc.

Wait what? If she doesn't put out or act independent, like she is, discuss it then hit her? Of course don't shame her by using a shoe, back hand her right?

Quote:
To Make Your Husband Happy

4- Intercourse
* Hasten for intercourse when your husband feels compulsion for it.
* Keep your body clean and smelling good as possible including cleaning
yourself of released fluids during intercourse.
* Exchange loving phrases with your husband.
* Leave your husband to fully satisfy his desire.
* Choose suitable times and good occasions for exciting your husband,
and encouraging him to do intercourse, e.g. after returning from a
travel, weekends, etc.


While I like sex she is half of this little equation...

Quote:
7- Appreciation
* By the saying of the prophet, the majority of people in hell were women because they were ungrateful and deny the good done to them.

Then how did all the virgins get in heaven?

Quote:
9- Compliance to Him
* In all what he commands you
, unless it is prohibited (Haram).
* In Islam, the husband is the leader of the family, and the wife is his
support and consultant.

If a wife or a girlfriend did that I'd be like who did what or what’s about to happen (yes I'm a little paranoid)

Quote:
10-Pleasing Him If He Is Angry
* First off, try to avoid what will guarantee his anger.
* But if it happens that you can't, then try to appease him as follows:
1- If you are mistaken, then apologize.
2- If he is mistaken then:
# Keep still instead of arguing or
# Yield your right or
# Wait until he is no longer angry and discuss the matter peacefully
with him.
3- If he was angry because of external reasons then:
# Keep silent until his anger goes
# Find excuses for him, e.g. tired, problems at work, someone insulted him
# Do not ask many questions and insist on knowing what happened, e.g. 1) You should tell me what happened? 2) I must know what made you so angry. 3) You are hiding something, and I have the right to know.

ROFL ok ok please him if he is angry...

"Keep still"? what are we going to attack anything that moves?

"Find excuses"? that is probably the last thing anyone should ever do... If I fuck up I fuck up I'd rather hear how I could fix it (hope that would be without calling me a dumbass, but eh) and not "Well your just tired". Although I might just be tired if it is a big deal being tired isn't good enough.

Quote:
14-Patience and Emotional Support
* Be patient when you face poverty and strained circumstances.
* When you face calamities and disasters that may happen to you, your husband, your children, relatives or properties, e.g. diseases,
accidents, death, etc.
* When facing hardships in Da'wah (imprisonment, getting fired, arrested, etc.), be patient and encourage him to keep on the path of Allah and remind him of paradise.
* When he mistreats you, counteract his ill-treatment by good treatment

be patient when he treats you like a whore?!?!? Fuck that!

Quote:
16-Good Housekeeping
* Keep it clean, decorated and well arranged.
* Change house arrangements from time to time to avoid boredom.
* Perfect of food and prepare healthy foods.
* Learn all the necessary skills for managing the house, e.g. sewing.
* Learn how to raise children properly and in an Islamic way.

1. I'll probably be making the mess so I don't really see how thats fair, plus I think I would need to agree with the decorating
2. and what so I don't know where to find shit!?!?!?
3. healthy? well maybe if I'm dying from the unhealthy...
4. sewing? I know how to sew (basics) I doubt that is enough...
5. first part would be good for both people to know as they are both doing it; the second part I'd disagree with


GlamourKat
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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Quote:Have

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
Have I misinterpreted these in any way? Is there another way to interpret the hitting of a "disobedient wife" for denying sex or watching "forbidden" TV? Or obeying your husband in all he commands? A lot of that advice is just good advice for living with someone and being married, but a great deal more of it IS sexist, I'm afraid. The submissive little wife, only allowed her say when her man ALLOWS it. Cook, clean, put out.......

Wow you skipped quite a lot there, ill asume you agree with the ones you ommited.

I guess for you it is okay for a wife to be disobedient and disrespectfull to her husband, makes sense.

If its sexist rules, try living with your boyfriend and see if he will tollerate your disrespect, disobedience, and see if he will help you raise your children (if you will have one).

I didn't neccessarily AGREE with all of them, they just weren't as terrible so I didn't post them. Obviously all the specifically muslim prayery type stuff. Obviously I don't believe in any of that but it's not sexist to demand they both pray. I didn't want to post the whole damn thing. It's why I posted the links, for people to look at. Don't assume.

That's very sweet personal attack on me. Thank you for that.
"For me it makes sense to be disobedient and disrespectful".
Thanks. No, really, seriously. I feel I brought up some valid arguments and I love to be answered with insults. Because I disagree with those 'female as doormat' rules, I must therefore be an immoral disobedient woman. finger

They are sexist rules. I do live with my boyfriend. No complaints yet. I cooked dinner tonight. He cooked dinner last night. He not only "tolerates" my "disrespect" and "disobedience", he loves me. Just as I not only "tolerate" his "disrespect" and "disobedience", and love him. How dare you assume that no man would put up with my "disobedience". It's called having my own ideas, just as he has his. Do you think that my boyfriend should hit me if I play Grand Theft Auto or watch porn? Cause he certainly doesn't think so. And I certainly don't. And assault and battery laws definately don't.
And I don't want children. Luckily neither does he. All our cute little atheist neices and nephews are enough for us.

Next time, please try and address my arguments instead of insulting. Thanks.


GlamourKat
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Voiderest wrote:I thought I

Voiderest wrote:
I thought I might be interesting to see it from a mans point of view.

You're going to make a lucky woman very happy one day..... Heart


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I'd hope so Kat, but I'll

I'd hope so Kat, but I'll need to find a like minded women first...


LeftofLarry
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ALMALHAMAH: with your

ALMALHAMAH: with your vehement yet thoughtless response you fall into the same argumentative trap as the rest of the theists do. In your eagerness to prove me wrong with quotes from the quran, you tend to forget one thing, your lack of critical thought. You attack me for my lack of knowledge of the qu'ran, like I'm supposed to know the qu'ran word for word, I will be honest I do not. However, I have something you will never have, which is critical and analytical thinking. I do not need to know the qu'ran word for word in order to realize how misogynistic and patriarchical islam is. You see, I have the ability to see between the lines. Your meager defenses based on the qu'ran are exactly the exoteric lies the islamic clerics want you to believe and defend while the esoteric true meanings are what rule. You being a blind faithful fail to see what islam is doing, how they treat their women how islam has destroyed free thinking. You take interpretations of the qu'ranic verses and you rationalize them so that you can think it is righteous and true. I will not get into a quote for quote debate on the qu'ran because frankly it is worthless and you fail to address those verses that do indeed make my point, and use red herring arguments to get around it. So I will leave you wiht this message. think outside the book. Just because you think islam is very friendly to women, doesn't change the fact that women are being subjugated and raped within the justifications of islamic law. This is a fact. You can throw all the qu'ranic verses you want. It is fact. You yourself probably see women as lower class citizens....because you feel it is justified.

As far as the anti-islamicist website go? yeah I go to the Jews r us...hate the muslims...web page..

In addition: Let me give you a bit of insight...I belong to other forums where we spread the word about the evils of zionism, about how the jewish lobby is wrongfully shaping our foreign policy, I am a huge advocate of church divestments from israel..However, it does not mean I think islam is right. You mention yourself that there are more birtish women turning to islam, why? becaus you guys like the jews and the xtians want to rule the world..with your righteous, raping ideologies. I will not stand for that. You guys value martyrdom for the greater good..but look at the reward: 72 virgins..that in itself is misogynistic...as if the "virgins" are to be forced to have sex with a single man that blew himself up...in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choice, are nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it. Why virgins? huh? Theistst tend to equate purity with virginity why? because once a woman has sex she's dirty...but where is that standard with men? The flaws are numerous. If a woman comits martyrdom, does she have 72 virgin men at her disposal? yeah..

ALMALHAMAH you can come here with your qu'ranic verses, thinking you can "school" us in the debate...but all you bring with you is the exact closed mind..guided by a book...without being able to read between the lines and see the true meaning of not only islam but religion in general. You with your scary Hijab...are not fooling any one..Perhaps..one day if you do not further your doctrination you can wake up and see the atrocities islam has and is comitting. Islam is no more righteous than Judaism or Christianity but is a direct morally conflicting ideology that is in conflict with the other two. The irony is that all three religions spawned from the same root. THis powerstruggle needs to end, and the only way to do so is with ending theism.

I will leave you wiht a quote from voltaire:
Those who make you believe absurdities, make you commit attrocities.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.


kmisho
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Quote:United States

Quote:
United States Population:
298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)

total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2006 est.)

which means that 0.03*298,444,215= almost 9 million MORE women TOTAL THAN MEN IN AMERICA.

IF all men were to marry ONLY ONE woman there would leave 9 million more women SINGLE with NO HUSBANDS.

what's your suggestion, telling all 9 million to become lesbian??

What do you think?


So would you agree that if the situation were reversed it would be OK for a woman to marry multiple men, BY THE SAME TOKEN?

Quote:
Does it mention all asspects men are equal to two women? NO. that is what you are inferring there buddy. Only in this Case of Court witnesses need be two men or one man and two women.

This explains nothing. Why is the testimony of 1 woman not as good as 1 man's?

Quote:
It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million

Irrelevant. There are Catholic women too, even though Catholicism has a definite streak of sexism.

I find this statement of yours amusing: "the view that Islam treats women poorly."

"Islam" doesn't DO anything. It's Islamic MEN who treat women badly. I know I am being semantically picky, but I would offer that your difficulty is separating the real from the abstract is part of the problem that allows you to hold absurd religious views.

Now there is admittedly a lot of variance in sexism in the Islamic world. In Cairo, which is quite modern, urbanized and egalitarian, women are much less likely to put up with being treated as the property of a polygamist. Merely suggesting to one's wife that one wishes to marry a second wife can lead to divorce. But Cairo is more IslamiCIZED than Islamic. It's not Islamic in the way a place like Saudi Arabia (the birthplace of Islam) is, where sexism is much more common and drastic.

And of course it is not only Islamic men who treat women badly. Sexism in varying degrees exists everywhere. But this fact does not absolve Islamic men from sexism.

If there is any "moral" argument that is LESS moral than the following, I have yet to hear it: "Don't blame me. Everyone does it!"


ALMALHAMAH
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First off before i refute

First off before i refute your completly ignorant and misunderstanding of Islam, you need to educate yourself before you open dialogue of this magnitude.

You posted at least 2 paragraphs you probably never even bothered to read. I can tell because almost all the verses you quoted were MISQUOTED.

Second of all you are throwing in the towel because you actually didn't find anything about rape in the Quran.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
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Quote:ALMALHAMAH: with your

Quote:
ALMALHAMAH: with your vehement yet thoughtless response you fall into the same argumentative trap as the rest of the theists do. In your eagerness to prove me wrong with quotes from the quran, you tend to forget one thing, your lack of critical thought. You attack me for my lack of knowledge of the qu'ran, like I'm supposed to know the qu'ran word for word, I will be honest I do not.

Wow, it didn't take me that long to come to that conclusion. You didn't even read what you wrote, just copy-pasted quotes from websites.

Quote:
However, I have something you will never have, which is critical and analytical thinking. I do not need to know the qu'ran word for word in order to realize how misogynistic and patriarchical islam is.

Hey i thought you had to understand something BEFORE you can debate it.. go figure.

Quote:
You see, I have the ability to see between the lines.

Considering you haven't read the lines in the first place?

Quote:
Your meager defenses based on the qu'ran are exactly the exoteric lies the islamic clerics want you to believe and defend while the esoteric true meanings are what rule. You being a blind faithful fail to see what islam is doing, how they treat their women how islam has destroyed free thinking.

The 'islamic clerics'?? what kind of fantasy world do you live in? Your almost as twisted about islam as Bush and the bible belt conservatives, please read an informative book about islam.

Quote:
You take interpretations of the qu'ranic verses and you rationalize them so that you can think it is righteous and true. I will not get into a quote for quote debate on the qu'ran because frankly it is worthless and you fail to address those verses that do indeed make my point, and use red herring arguments to get around it.

I just addressed your last post POINT BY POINT, you got more verses from the quran condoning rape, bring it.

Quote:
So I will leave you wiht this message. think outside the book.

Maybe you should read the book first before you tell others not to.

Quote:
Just because you think islam is very friendly to women, doesn't change the fact that women are being subjugated and raped within the justifications of islamic law. This is a fact. You can throw all the qu'ranic verses you want. It is fact. You yourself probably see women as lower class citizens....because you feel it is justified.

I just posted the verse that says men and women are one of another, meaning they are equal:

I'll do it again, im sure you didn't read it the first time:

Quran 3:195
{ So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), "Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another, so those who emigrated and were driven out from their homes, and suffered harm in My Cause, and who fought, and were killed (in My Cause), verily, I will remit from them their evil deeds and admit them into Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise); a reward from Allâh, and with Allâh is the best of rewards." }

Also if its so bad why is it luring 4 times MORE WOMEN THAN MEN??

Quote:
As far as the anti-islamicist website go? yeah I go to the Jews r us...hate the muslims...web page..

you said it not me Sticking out tongue

Quote:
In addition: Let me give you a bit of insight...I belong to other forums where we spread the word about the evils of zionism, about how the jewish lobby is wrongfully shaping our foreign policy, I am a huge advocate of church divestments from israel..However, it does not mean I think islam is right.

Islam does not preach hatred towards jews, islam teaches hatred towards opressors and murderers.

and how the zionists shaping your foriegn policy has been going on for decades, where have you been man.

Anyway this zionist tactics are irrelevent to the topic we are discussing.

Quote:
You mention yourself that there are more birtish women turning to islam, why? becaus you guys like the jews and the xtians want to rule the world..with your righteous, raping ideologies.

Call me crazy but i think if you have an ideology that 'rapes' others i don't think you would have a lot of converts.

Quote:
I will not stand for that. You guys value martyrdom for the greater good..but look at the reward: 72 virgins..that in itself is misogynistic...as if the "virgins" are to be forced to have sex with a single man that blew himself up...,

Once again another baseless lie. I challenge you to show me where in the Quran or hadith does it say blow yourself up and go to heaven.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
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Quote:in other words these

Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist?? hahahaha, What's next defending the easter bunny or santa clause??

Quote:
Why virgins? huh? Theistst tend to equate purity with virginity why? because once a woman has sex she's dirty...but where is that standard with men? The flaws are numerous. If a woman comits martyrdom, does she have 72 virgin men at her disposal? yeah..

Since when would women be promoted under any religion to fight in wars.

your logic is laughable at BEST.

Quote:
ALMALHAMAH you can come here with your qu'ranic verses, thinking you can "school" us in the debate...

No i am trying to teach you about a religion you know NOTHING about except spoon fed propaganda.

Quote:
but all you bring with you is the exact closed mind..guided by a book...

The book you havent read or understood?

Quote:
without being able to read between the lines and see the true meaning of not only islam but religion in general. You with your scary Hijab...

Scarry to you maybe, women wear it as a sign of modesty & chastity, not for looks.

Modesty and chastity is not something valued in this country.

Quote:
are not fooling any one..Perhaps..one day if you do not further your doctrination you can wake up and see the atrocities islam has and is comitting.

I see what atrocities they are commiting, even to each other, but this is all a small group who misinterpret the Quran (much like you westerners do) in order to propogate their political ideologies.

They use their religion as just a tool for violence, which is not correct.

If you claim all muslims are violent: there are 1.5 billion muslims across the world. How come there are not 1.5 billion + murders and bombers and suicide bombers?

[BECAUSE THATS NOT WHAT ISLAM TEACHES]

Quote:
Islam is no more righteous than Judaism or Christianity but is a direct morally conflicting ideology that is in conflict with the other two.

Go look up Genesis 38 and see what type of standards the christians and jews believe to be moral.

Quote:
The irony is that all three religions spawned from the same root. THis powerstruggle needs to end, and the only way to do so is with ending theism.

Powerstruggle?? People are free to enter whatever faith they want, noone has the right to impose shit on other.

Ending theism? Good luck with that. What a lost cause.

Quote:
I will leave you wiht a quote from voltaire:
Those who make you believe absurdities, make you commit attrocities.

Now i will leave YOU with a quote from the Quran:

Quran 2:256
{ There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. }

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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kmisho wrote:Quote:United

kmisho wrote:
Quote:
United States Population:
298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)

total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2006 est.)

which means that 0.03*298,444,215= almost 9 million MORE women TOTAL THAN MEN IN AMERICA.

IF all men were to marry ONLY ONE woman there would leave 9 million more women SINGLE with NO HUSBANDS.


Hey if thats a true statement my odds just went up


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Quote:So would you agree

Quote:
So would you agree that if the situation were reversed it would be OK for a woman to marry multiple men, BY THE SAME TOKEN?

Since, in Muslim family, husbands takes the horn of leadership, if a wife has more than one husband, she would be placed under the authority of many husbands at the same time. This of course would only hasten to tear apart the fabric of a family unit. Furthermore, the lineage of the child borne by a woman having more than one husband cannot be ascertained. How would the father be ascertained?

Someone might say that a DNA test would be able to do so. However, even if this test is used, there still are great chances of dissent between all the husbands with one claiming to be the father and the other denying him.

Owing to these reasons, Islam makes it forbidden for a woman to be married to more than one husband at a time

Quote:
This explains nothing. Why is the testimony of 1 woman not as good as 1 man's?

testimony is different from equality.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:First off

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
First off before i refute your completly ignorant and misunderstanding of Islam, you need to educate yourself before you open dialogue of this magnitude.

You posted at least 2 paragraphs you probably never even bothered to read. I can tell because almost all the verses you quoted were MISQUOTED.

Second of all you are throwing in the towel because you actually didn't find anything about rape in the Quran.

I think it is you who needs to be educated. Your lack of understanding of reality is what is blinding you. Anyone here can plainly see that an argument made from irrationality as a flawed argument.

It is you who is throwing in the towel by chasing red herrings. I made my point, you refuse to acknoweldge and because you want to "win" so bad you decide to call me ignorant. I look at the facts...and the facts are as stated, you have yet been able to dissuade me from believing that Islam condones misogyny. You, chase red herrings here...my friend...rape is a direct result of the mentality of islamic ideology...you have yet to refute that. You only see what you want to see in the quran....I have no towel to throw in because irrationality is won over by common sense. and you have none of it. I debate based on fact..not on a book of lies. but go ahead and ride your high horse, go tell your buddies you just beat an atheist at a debate, haha..because it is obviously impossible for you to realize that islam is a flawed ideology. Because you follow a book. I've already posted qu'ranic quotes relating to misogyny and even rape. you have yet to answer them, you chase red herrings and then say see..see..I won I won...as I said, I will not get into a qu'ranic verse "quote" battle with you...that is pointless as I said. The fact is this...there are women who get raped based on islamic law...oh and are you telling me there are no islamic clerics? hmmm..interesting.

Point is this: there are no gods...a book written by a man, does not convince me so. Everything I've read in the qu'ran is correlative conjecture at best. And just plain stupid at worse. What I see in the real world is what I judge Islam by, and let me tell you...it's not pretty. Subjugation of women, martyrdom for 72 virgins, rape, self mutilation, and a diabolic hatred for anyone besides muslims..hell you guys even kill each other, because you can't even agree with your own religion. So don't stand there on a high horse telling me, I don't know, because even within your own religion you guys can't figure it out. It's just like the catholics and the protestants...it's all bullshit. So before you can come here deciding we are all ignorant on the matter, figure out your own religion first. Perhaps YOU then know all the answers. Go to the sunnis and the shia' muslims and tell them to stop their murderous rage. Then you can go to the tribal areas of pakistan and you can tell those "clerics" to stop raping women as punishment. Obviously you have it figured out.

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Quote:I think it is you who

Quote:
I think it is you who needs to be educated. Your lack of understanding of reality is what is blinding you. Anyone here can plainly see that an argument made from irrationality as a flawed argument.

This is a very amusing statement, telling me to learn about my religion, when you don't know anything about it but lies and you even admit you don't know about the quran.

you are trying to teach me about something you know nothing about? This is the equivalent of me teaching you EVOLUTION.

Quote:
It is you who is throwing in the towel by chasing red herrings.

I refuted your baseless argument point by point, you didn't even post the quran you MISQUOTED it at least 4 times. And i pointed out each one.

Quote:
I made my point, you refuse to acknoweldge and because you want to "win" so bad you decide to call me ignorant. I look at the facts...

you didn't even look at the verses you posted...

Quote:
and the facts are as stated, you have yet been able to dissuade me from believing that Islam condones misogyny. You, chase red herrings here...my friend...rape is a direct result of the mentality of islamic ideology...

didn't i challenge you to tell me where it says in the quran "RAPE WOMEN OF YOUR CHOICE" and you still failed.

Quote:
you have yet to refute that.

First show me where in the Quran does it say RAPE WOMEN. you have yet to do so..

In fact what you did was switch the subject and broaden it to inequality, which is not the basis of our discussion.

Don't you remember i challenged you to find verses in the Quran that say rape women?

Even look in the hadith and you woun't find any.

Quote:
You only see what you want to see in the quran....I have no towel to throw in because irrationality is won over by common sense.

common sense is there is no verses in the Quran to condone rape and even premarital sex is forbidden.

Quote:
and you have none of it. I debate based on fact..not on a book of lies.

The whole point of this debate is to show me WHERE does it say RAPE WOMEN IS OK in the Quran. Directly.

Quote:
but go ahead and ride your high horse, go tell your buddies you just beat an atheist at a debate, haha..because it is obviously impossible for you to realize that islam is a flawed ideology
.

Maybe thats what you do when you debate but i am here for you to show me where does it say RAPE WOMEN. Still waiting.

Quote:
Because you follow a book. I've already posted qu'ranic quotes relating to misogyny and even rape.

first off, you MISQUOTED and now you stand by it. Now who is irrational? (YOU)

Quote:
you have yet to answer them

I'm sorry did you miss the HALF PAGE REPLY??

Quote:
you chase red herrings and then say see..see..I won I won...as I said, I will not get into a qu'ranic verse "quote" battle with you...that is pointless as I said.

Nobody said they won, i challeneged you and you still did not provide credible evidence.

What you did was MisQuote, then throw in some news reports from shady sources to change the subject.

Then you tried to save your cause by broadening it to discussing the equality of women (you even tried to defend those you don't believe exist 72 virgins, which was funny)

Quote:
The fact is this...there are women who get raped based on islamic law...

No, but i have a good idea those cases of rape in pakistan are a CULTRUAL ritual and not an islamic one. Look for cases in which penalties for crime are rape in the hadith or Quran.

Quote:
oh and are you telling me there are no islamic clerics? hmmm..interesting.

these clerics don't controll the people like you think, they offer scholarly advise on those serious issues in Islam people need help with.

Quote:
Point is this: there are no gods...a book written by a man, does not convince me so. Everything I've read in the qu'ran is correlative conjecture at best. And just plain stupid at worse. What I see in the real world is what I judge Islam by, and let me tell you...it's not pretty. Subjugation of women, martyrdom for 72 virgins, rape, self mutilation, and a diabolic hatred for anyone besides muslims..hell you guys even kill each other, because you can't even agree with your own religion. So don't stand there on a high horse telling me, I don't know, because even within your own religion you guys can't figure it out. It's just like the catholics and the protestants...it's all bullshit. So before you can come here deciding we are all ignorant on the matter, figure out your own religion first. Perhaps YOU then know all the answers. Go to the sunnis and the shia' muslims and tell them to stop their murderous rage. Then you can go to the tribal areas of pakistan and you can tell those "clerics" to stop raping women as punishment. Obviously you have it figured out.

Not only did you veer off topic with this paragraph, you drove off a cliff with it. Stick to the subject at hand please.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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ALMALHAMAH wrote: Since, in

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

Since, in Muslim family, husbands takes the horn of leadership,


why are males given the position of "leadership"?

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

if a wife has more than one husband, she would be placed under the authority of many husbands at the same time.

What authority? Where does this authority come from? Who said males have authority over women? What kind of authority?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Quote:in

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist??

He's clearly arguing the point abstractly, by demonstrating that the claim has negative moral implications - even if the women do not exist, it is morally troubling to imply that women are to be the 'prize' for men in heaven.

An abstract argument doesn't require that the people exist. You can I can argue whether a hypothetical person's actions are moral or immoral.

We can also consider other aspects of the claim. From where do these 72 women come from? Doesn't the ratio of women to men strike you as suspicious?

And what point is there in having them be 'virgins' is sex does not occur in your version of heaven? Why even mention their virginity ?

Quote:

hahahaha, What's next defending the easter bunny or santa clause??

The proper spelling of the name is "Santa Claus". If you're going to lambate people for 'ignorance', you might want to avoid grade school spelling errors.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Quote:in

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist??

Quote:
He's clearly arguing the point abstractly, by demonstrating that the claim has negative moral implications - even if the women do not exist, it is morally troubling to imply that women are to be the 'prize' for men in heaven.

If you want to imply they do exist, lets go even further to suggest God exists then.

Second of all these are not women like here, these women are called 'hour eyen' or 'wide eyed' in english. The soul purpose of these women are to please their husbands in heaven. I doubt they mind being created to live in paradise forever. Would you? (also these women have no free will)

Quote:
We can also consider other aspects of the claim. From where do these 72 women come from? Doesn't the ratio of women to men strike you as suspicious?

These are not the women here on earth. http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/islamicpar.htm

Quote:
And what point is there in having them be 'virgins' is sex does not occur in your version of heaven? Why even mention their virginity ?

It definitaly does exist because you have wives in heaven. When i said before about sex in heaven i was not sure before.
virgins: http://www.muslimhope.com/HourisHeavenlyMaidensInIslam.htm

Quote:
Quote:

hahahaha, What's next defending the easter bunny or santa clause??

The proper spelling of the name is "Santa Claus". If you're going to lambate people for 'ignorance', you might want to avoid grade school spelling errors.

duly noted, i didn't think there was a spell check on here but oh well. Laughing out loud

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:why are males given

Quote:
why are males given the position of "leadership"?

Because Men are physically stronger than women.

If you don't believe me, id like to see you elect a woman for a president, show how equal rights you really are.

Or elect an african american or a jew to the united states presidency.

Quote:
What authority? Where does this authority come from? Who said males have authority over women? What kind of authority?

so you don't have an authority to protect women? I doubt women can protect themselves from robbers, rappists, murderers, and other sick men.

Why do you think there are so many abductions and rape and murders of women in this country? Men are not protecting women.

Look even children are not safe in this country.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Quote:why

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
why are males given the position of "leadership"?

Because Men are physically stronger than women.

If you don't believe me, id like to see you elect a woman for a president, show how equal rights you really are.

Or elect an african american or a jew to the united states presidency.

Quote:
What authority? Where does this authority come from? Who said males have authority over women? What kind of authority?

so you don't have an authority to protect women? I doubt women can protect themselves from robbers, rappists, murderers, and other sick men.

Why do you think there are so many abductions and rape and murders of women in this country? Men are not protecting women.

Look even children are not safe in this country.

I would definately vote for a woman for my Prime Minister if I agreed with her party's policies. We had one for a while, but it wasn't really a TRUE election. And physical strength has nothing to do with being a leader of a country. Hell, one U.S. president was in a freakin' wheelchair! I coulda' kicked his ass and then become president!!! Laughing out loud (yes, A, that was a joke)

Y'know what I'd like? I'd like to live in a world where there are no bad men who would rob, rape, or murder me. Wouldn't that be novel? Instead of needing men to "protect me" as you say, I'd have no one to be protected from. I'd like that. Just chillin' with my awesome guy friends who don't think they're better than me, or wanting to rape or kill me.
What do you say about women who "need to be protected" from their husbands who beat them or mistreat them? Would you step in and protect a woman who was married to another man?


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist??

Quote:
He's clearly arguing the point abstractly, by demonstrating that the claim has negative moral implications - even if the women do not exist, it is morally troubling to imply that women are to be the 'prize' for men in heaven.

If you want to imply they do exist, lets go even further to suggest God exists then.

Second of all these are not women like here, these women are called 'hour eyen' or 'wide eyed' in english. The soul purpose of these women are to please their husbands in heaven. I doubt they mind being created to live in paradise forever. Would you? (also these women have no free will)

Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?


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seriously, how many more

seriously, how many more circular arguments do we have to go through? you are sooooo....lost my friend seriously.....you keep refering back to the qu'ran...but..do you have a mind our your own or do you have to take a shit according to the quran..that's the point..do you see? you are a slave to a bullshit ideolgoy... that condones rape...and misogyny..yes..I've proven that point. All you do is scape goat around it. you are exactly what we need on this board. Please keep posting so that people can see your irrationality, because you are a product of exactly what we see as flaw. The more you post the more we can see your ideological fallacies... thank you.

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ALMALHAMAH wrote: Because

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

Because Men are physically stronger than women.

Why do you think there are so many abductions and rape and murders of women in this country? Men are not protecting women.

Look even children are not safe in this country.

And here we have it folks...my point proven all along... 'nuff said argument broken down ..not by your holy book..not by even your arguments..but by your simple mind molded by your religion.. women...are worthless...straight from the mind of a muslim..need I say more?
as I said..muslims men feel superior over women...hmm....

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Quote:seriously, how many

Quote:
seriously, how many more circular arguments do we have to go through? you are sooooo....lost my friend seriously.....you keep refering back to the qu'ran...but..do you have a mind our your own or do you have to take a shit according to the quran..that's the point..do you see? you are a slave to a bullshit ideolgoy... that condones rape...and misogyny..yes..I've proven that point. All you do is scape goat around it. you are exactly what we need on this board. Please keep posting so that people can see your irrationality, because you are a product of exactly what we see as flaw. The more you post the more we can see your ideological fallacies... thank you.

All i see here is your lack of ability to demonstrate where in the Quran does it condone rape, in which you have failed the challenge, so next time you mention something, try to back it up with facts not lies and misquotes. Thank you sir.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:And here we have it

Quote:
And here we have it folks...my point proven all along... 'nuff said argument broken down ..not by your holy book..not by even your arguments..but by your simple mind molded by your religion.. women...are worthless...straight from the mind of a muslim..need I say more?
as I said..muslims men feel superior over women...hmm....

hahaha you think women are physically stronger than men? What world are you living on? I'd like to know.

Second of all, your main point and the main challenge i gave you was to provide evidence the quran condones rape!

Since you have such short memory span allow me to refresh it:

LeftofLarry wrote:

And let me just go ahead and throw out there that RAPE is a prefectly acceptable form of punishment in the areas in the middle east run by tribal leaders...

You are free to show me where in the Quran or hadith or Sharia Law does it justify Rape as a punishment for any crime.

This is from the richard dawkins thread.

you still failed to prove your point, in fact you MISQUOTED in order to prove your failed objective.Cool Doob

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:Doesn't this ring any

Quote:
Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

Here we go again, another defense lawyer for santa claus, how can you defend people you don't think exist???

shows how irrational you athiests really are.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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First off you misspelled

First off you misspelled atheist - it is without theism, not the most athi. By the way, I read recently that the whole thing about 72 virgins may be a mistranslation. The word houris (sp?) may have actually meant "white raisins" rather than virgins (white raisins were a very expensive delicacy at the time the Quaran was written.) It is a bit amusing to picture a suicide bomber arriving in heaven and being given a handful of white raisins. Though I do agree, the Quaran does not actually advocate such behavior.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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ALMALHAMAH wrote: Quote:why

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
why are males given the position of "leadership"?

Because Men are physically stronger than women.

What does physical strength have to do with leadership? Leadership is an intellectual ability.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
If you don't believe me, id like to see you elect a woman for a president, show how equal rights you really are.

Or elect an african american or a jew to the united states presidency.


There has already been and still are many women heads of state, your argument seems to be imaginary. There are yet to be many more future elections and I do not see where all other people but white-male-xians will be excluded. But why are you only thinking of the US?

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
What authority? Where does this authority come from? Who said males have authority over women? What kind of authority?

so you don't have an authority to protect women?

What does authority have to do with helping to defend anyone? I do not need any authority to defend anyone.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
I doubt women can protect themselves from robbers, rappists, murderers, and other sick men.
Women are permitted to carry weapons and they do. It is interesting to note that males seem to be the criminal aggressor which brings up the question as to why should males be in authority in the first place.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Why do you think there are so many abductions and rape and murders of women in this country?

Apparently you haven't been paying any attention to what is going on in the middle east.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Men are not protecting women.

Look even children are not safe in this country.

Comparatively, the middle east is morally bankrupt. And the quran is the moral authority there isn’t it.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

Here we go again, another defense lawyer for santa claus, how can you defend people you don't think exist???

shows how irrational you athiests really are.

I don't think they exist, alma. I'm not defending any imaginary women. We've explained this. It's troubling because the koran depicts women as objects, as "prizes" for the men. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"? Address the issue instead of sidestepping it. Every time I bring up an issue now, you either resort to some personal attack, like that i'm promiscuous or disobedient, or dismiss the argument entirely, and call me irrational. Or you don't answer at all.

Irrational? Hardly. If I was watching a show that had " Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"?" then that show would be sexist, or have sexist undertones. The fact that it's fiction has NO BEARING on the fact that it IS sexist. And the fact that many people base their lives on this story is indeed troubling. So, Alma, please tell me, how is this not misogynistic and sexist? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?


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GlamourKAt i will address

GlamourKAt i will address your statements, but i must go to school now, i will address them tonite.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

Here we go again, another defense lawyer for santa claus, how can you defend people you don't think exist???

shows how irrational you athiests really are.

But you think think there is a god. There is no evidence for any god. That is true irrationalism.
The story about Santa is just a story and was always meant to be a story for the enjoyment of the kids. It was never meant to be a serious belief.
It is more believable because the Santa Claus story includes details of things that can, in reality, exist; for example: there can be a fat man with a white beard dressed in a red suit, there are in fact sleighs, there are in fact reindeer, etc.

There is nothing about the story of a god that can be, even remotely, possible. It is pure fantasy and is not based on reality in any way.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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ALMALHAMAH wrote: Because

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

Because Men are physically stronger than women.

If you don't believe me, id like to see you elect a woman for a president, show how equal rights you really are.

I have! Her name is Tarja Halonen.


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist??

Quote:
He's clearly arguing the point abstractly, by demonstrating that the claim has negative moral implications - even if the women do not exist, it is morally troubling to imply that women are to be the 'prize' for men in heaven.

Quote:

If you want to imply they do exist,

I'm not implying this. You're either not paying attention, or you're a very concrete thinker. We are talking about the situation abstractly, and looking at the moral implication of the claim.

Quote:

lets go even further to suggest God exists then.

You're not following what I just said. He's showing that there is a moral implication in your claim concerning the 72 virgins, and he's discussing this moral implication. The virgins do not actually have to exist to discuss the moral implication about the 72 virgins.

So no one is implying that the 72 virgins exist.

Do you understand now? We are talking about an abstract principle. We don't need to have the 72 virgins actually exist to discuss the moral implications of the concept.

Quote:

Second of all these are not women like here, these women are called 'hour eyen' or 'wide eyed' in english. The soul purpose of these women are to please their husbands in heaven.

I think you meant "sole" purpose.

Anyway, I must ask: are they women or not?

Last I checked, women like to be free to enjoy what they choose to enjoy, just like men.

Quote:

I doubt they mind being created to live in paradise forever.

Again, you appear to be a concrete thinker - you're equivocating on the term 'living in paradise". According to your claim, while these women are physically "living" in paradise, they are not actually "in paradise" because they are not there to enjoy whatever they wish to enjoy... they are there as slaves.

To actually 'live in paradise' one would need to have the choice to enjoy what one wishes to enjoy. Right?

And be free from being forced to serve some role for another, right?

I mean, if you went to paradise, and were forced to be the reward for someone else, the love toy for some unattractive woman, you probably wouldn't like it, right? You'd 'live in paradise' but you wouldn't "be in paradise" at all.

Now, let me go and give your response for you. You're going to say that they 'enjoy their service anyway, for this is what allah wills, right? That allah creates them so that this would have been their choice anyway, even if they had free will, right?

You better think that one over, first. Because if you use this argument, you refute your entire religion.

Because if that is the case, then why do you have free will? What value is it is if just gets in the way?

Aren't you just a humble servant to Allah, just as your women ought to be servants for you? If so, then why aren't you created to just service allah, without any free will?

Now, here's your problem: Whatever answer you give will equally apply to the women in paradise. Whatever answer you give, can be used against your religion itself. Whatever reasons you come up with to do away with free will for the slave-girls can be used to undermine your entire religion.

So pick your poison carefully.

Quote:

(also these women have no free will)

Well then, if they have no free will, then they are slaves according to your worldview. Robots. So how can it truly be paradise for them?

If they can exist without free will, then why do you have it?

Quote:
We can also consider other aspects of the claim. From where do these 72 women come from? Doesn't the ratio of women to men strike you as suspicious?

Quote:

These are not the women here on earth.

Yes, I expected this response... but then, are they really women then? If they are not from earth, if they don't have free will, then how can you refer to them as 'women' in the sense that women come from earth, and have free will?

Do you see the problem?

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And what point is there in having them be 'virgins' is sex does not occur in your version of heaven? Why even mention their virginity ?

Quote:

It definitaly does exist because you have wives in heaven.

I think you are wrong here... From what I've heard, there is no sex in the islamic version of heaven.... You might want to check into that.... in fact, people don't even deficate or urinate, nor is there a need to ever drink again (once one drinks from a lake that forever quenches thirst)

By the way, do you think that you'll grow to be over 30 feet tall in your heaven? That you'll have a beard, look to be about 33 years old, etc.?

If so, how are you going to have sex with your 'wives'?

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

Here we go again, another defense lawyer for santa claus, how can you defend people you don't think exist???

Here we go again, one more example of your inability to think abstractly.

Quote:

shows how irrational you athiests really are.

No, it only shows how what a concrete thinker you are.

It's entirely rational to think hypothetically, and such thinking does not require that we accept the claim litearally.

You've made this error many times now, and I'd like to help you correct it. We adults can examine the abstract moral implication in a claim, without taking the claim itself literally. This is called hypothetical thinking.

Children (either developmentally and intellectually) find the concept difficult to grasp, so let me make this concrete for you, so that you'll be better able to grasp the point. If I told you that I believed in a "god of rape", you wouldn't have to accept that this god actually existed in order to criticize the 'god'. You could examine the moral implications of my belief itself. And you'd be able to hold that the "rape god is immoral", without ever actually having to accept that the god actually existed, because you would be able to examine the concept hypothetically, abstractly.

So, in actuality, you'd be questioning the morality of the belief in the god. So, in reality, this is what we are doing when we question your beliefs. We are showing the logical and moral problems contained in the belief. To argue against the immoral implications of the '72 virgins' is to demonstrate the moral problems in your belief.

I do hope that you'll come to grasp this point now, and concede your error, because it's really tiresome at this point.

Thanks.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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GlamourKat wrote: Doesn't

GlamourKat wrote:

Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

And how is it not self refuting? He'll also have to argue that free will is morally necessary, in order to defend his religion against the Argument from Evil, so he will be forced to argue that free will is both necessary and unnecessary....

Internal contradiction.

Checkmate.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

demonstrate where in the Quran does it condone rape
I will simply paste an article that explains my views on the problem

=======================================

Amnesty International, the leading global human rights monitor, in its report on Afghan women declared that:

"Armed groups have massacred defenseless women in their homes, or have brutally beaten and raped them. Scores of young women have been abducted and then raped, taken as wives by commanders or sold into prostitution. Some have committed suicide to avoid such a fate. Scores of women have reportedly disappeared and several have been stoned to death. Many women are traumatized by the horrific abuses, they have suffered or witnessed."

So desperate is their situation that the majority of women prefer to die by consuming caustic soda or other household poisons. Western aid workers in Afghanistan have reported a dramatic increase in the number of women committing suicide because they can no longer bear the country's stifling Islamic code. The mass phenomenon of Afghani women consuming caustic soda to put themselves out of their misery is shockingly common. The agony of their situation can be gleaned from the fact that consuming caustic soda results in a torturously painful and lingering death. First it burns away the throat, and then slowly the internal organs are burnt. It takes an average of three to four days to suffer out the symptoms which are horribly traumatic.

Many doctors are also reporting the fact that thousands of Afghan women now flock clinics by feigning heart condition. The reason for this drama is to somehow acquire lethal digoxin tablets for the purpose of committing suicide. The increase in female suicide was barely highlighted in last year's United Nations report on Afghanistan. A huge spurt in incidences of women being admitted to mental hospitals with severe depression has become rampant with the Talibanization of Afghanistan. The suicides and mental illnesses are never spoken about in the rigidly fundamentalist Islamic society. International aid agencies have been threatened with dire consequences for daring to say anything about the true situation of women in Afghanistan.

The reason for the utter helplessness of the raped, depressed and abused women of Afghanistan is the Quran. Rape is, if not very difficult, almost impossible to prove because of Islamic law. Prophet Mohammed's divine injunctions of Allah clearly outline through the Quran that a woman's word on rape is not to be taken into account. Proving her innocence is a dauntingly unreachable task. Almost all the rape victims are in fact charged with an adulterous and loose moral character. This is because the Quran clearly says that the testimony of one man is considered as equal to that of two women. This blatant discrimination is amply explained in Quranic Sura 24:1-4. Regarding this issue, the famous Islamic scholar Anwar Shaikh comments:

"As a result of this law, a raped woman has to produce four eye-witnesses to the act, which is more or less an impossibility. Its devastating effect can be clearly seen in Pakistan where several thousand good, honest Muslim women are imprisoned for suffering rape. When they report their cases to the police, they are required to produce four eye-witnesses. As they cannot do so, they are held as false accusers, and put behind bars."

Many Quranic Surahs exhort torturous punishment for "fornication prone" women. It is primarily due to this inherent disadvantage which weighs down Muslim women, that they fear for their very lives when they are the victim of rape. Instead of having the opportunity to bring the culprit to justice, these women spend the rest of their lives in fear that the deed will be discovered and that the victim herself will have to suffer the punishment for being an adulteress instead of the other way around.

Some of the Quranic Surahs which provide the basis for these type of heinous punishments on women are provided below. These verses have been taken verbatim from the translation of the Quran by the respected Muslim scholar, Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

Quran 4:15: "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way."

Here one must note that anybody can point the finger and accuse a woman of "lewdness" meaning illicit sex and all they have to do to seal the woman's horrendous treatment is to get four other witnesses to testify against her. In case of gang rapes, there have even been situations where one of the rapists accuses the woman of "lewdness" and four of the other rapists support this charge with their testimony, in which case by Islamic law, the woman has to suffer the punishment for adultery.

Quran 4:16: "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

The law for Muslim men who indulge in "lewdness" however is quite different. As long as the men "repent and amend" they are to be let off completely. This is a blatant instance of women being denied the rights that men enjoy in Islam.

Quran 4:34: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For God is Most High, great."

The fate of Muslim women has been sealed by this Quranic Surah as it provides Muslim men a clear justification for physical violence against women. The verse is redolent with blatant chauvinism and declares that women should be obedient as slaves to men. What is truly shocking about this Quranic verse is that it clearly implicates that if a man even so much as suspects the fidelity of his wife, he has a right to admonish and physically abuse her by divine approval of Allah! In many cases of rape in Afghanistan, this very verse is used as justification by the victim's husbands to beat and torture her despite her innocence.

Quran 4:31: "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

This verse clearly illustrates that concubinage and treating non-Muslim women as sexual property is divinely sanctioned by Allah himself in Islam. A non-Muslim woman who is taken captive in war is treated as "Ghanimah" or plunder. The captured Kafir (non-Muslim) women snatched from their husbands can be enjoyed with absolute immunity by the Mujahids (holy warriors of Allah). Not only is it lawful to commit rape on captured women it is in fact a "pure and pious" act which earns the Muslim merit in the eyes of Allah.

Quran 2:228: "And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And God is Exalted in Power, Wise."

Again a clear vindication of Men's superiority over women is being sanctioned by Allah himself in this verse. In effect men have more rights than women in an ideal Islamic society.

The Taliban, in true accordance with Islamic strictures, has forbidden women to work anymore. Considering the skyrocketing rate of widowhood, the women of Afghanistan are left with no choice but to sell their bodies as prostitutes for the sake of a morsel of food. So desperate has the condition of these women become that they force their five to six year old children to beg on the streets. Many of the western aid workers secretly admit that almost half a million of these children are also forced into prostitution to earn tiny amounts of money for their families' subsistence.

If by chance a woman's rape comes to light she is accused of adultery by Islamic law. Most often the punishment for adultery is severe lashing or stoning to death. Over 65% of the Afghani female population is now directly or indirectly involved in prostitution. As prostitution invites the same punishment as adultery, millions of Muslim women carry on their trade in a surreptitious manner. They disguise themselves in rags in order to pass off as beggars. Their clients are usually shopkeepers who have a store room or an attic where they take the woman without any problem. Beggar prostitutes charge about 2 lakh Afghanis which is equal to Rs 250 (Pakistani).

This amount is peanuts considering the cost of living in war tattered Afghanistan, therefore most prostitutes are desperate to find at least three to four clients a day. Most of the prostitutes also become "traveling" types, as they cannot stay in one place for too long, due to fear of detection. The exceptions are those special prostitutes who work in the brothels which have the protection of the Taliban. Hordes of Pakistanis also come from across the border to take advantage of the freely available sexual services.

Even then the situation of Muslim women is far, far better than that of non-Muslim women who are accursed enough to live in Afghanistan. The non-Muslim women and children are treated worse than sewer rats. Considering that Muslim women themselves are being abused so rampantly, one can only imagine how inhumane the treatment meted out to these victims must be. The plight of non-Muslims is unimaginably horrific.

All non-Muslims, including Hindus and Sikhs, living in Afghanistan must abide by the "Ten Commandments'', issued in accordance with the rules of Islamic Sharia. A few pockets in Kabul and Jalalabad, are still inhabited by these unlucky Hindus and Sikhs. The Islamic "Law Ministry" in Kabul has issued ten directives to all non-Muslims, including Hindus and Sikhs, determining their conduct in their daily lives. These orders include such unimaginably discriminatory tenets like the rule that non-Muslims are absolutely not allowed to build any place of worship like temple, church or Gurudwara. Legally, non-Muslims are not entitled to bring any lawsuits against a Muslim at all, regardless of the criminality or culpability of the Muslim! One can only imagine what sort of justice non-Muslim victims of rape and molestation in Afghanistan must receive!

Non-Muslims must follow such incredible rules as displaying a two-meter long yellow cloth atop their house for identification of their status as non believers. The order also bans non-Muslims from living together with Muslims in one house in a direct indication of the untouchability of the non-Muslims. The women of non-Muslim families are prohibited from walking in a street or bazaar without wearing the Islamic "chadar'' to cover them. They cannot wear jewelry made from any metal more precious than iron in a humiliating reminder of their low status. What is most outrageous of all however, is the injunction for non-Muslims to wear dresses which are clearly "different" from those of Muslims. Non-Muslims must wear a MARKED YELLOW OUTFIT in order to ensure identification of their Kafir status from a distance. Non-Muslims CANNOT wear ANY dresses which signify priesthood or other religious denomination.

The status of Kafirs under the Taliban is exactly as Prophet Mohammed had envisioned it. It is in fact in perfect consonance with the suggested treatment of non-Muslims in the Quran. A number of apologists and misled scholars who have been horrified by the Taliban's policies have tried to explain away their practices as "misinterpretations of Islam". The truth however is exactly the opposite. The Taliban of Afghanistan, ably supported by the Islamic purists of Pakistan, is pursuing the establishment of an Islamic society that can be termed as a perfect realization of the Islamic ideals entrenched in the Quran. The Taliban IS the perfect Islamic society. The treatment accorded to women and non-Muslims by the Taliban is exactly as prescribed by the Quran and the Prophet Mohammed. In fact the reign of the Prophet Mohammed was marked by exactly the same type of society.

As Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism raises its ugly head all over the world, its time civilized societies took a long hard look at the Talibanism of Afghanistan, for the situation there foretells exactly what is in store for other countries around the world with a sizable Muslim population.

By refusing to stare the problem in the face, we risk allowing it to become stronger still. If we keep ignoring it, it won't be long before the ability to stop Talibanization in its tracks slips right out of our fingers.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Quote:I don't think they

Quote:
I don't think they exist, alma. I'm not defending any imaginary women. We've explained this.

you seem to be defending their right for free will and complaining that they are slaves when in reality you don't believe they exist.

Quote:
It's troubling because the koran depicts women as objects, as "prizes" for the men. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

Show me where in the quran does it say mistreat women.

in fact let me help you out:

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you are those who treat their wives in the best manner." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 217

Quote:
Address the issue instead of sidestepping it. Every time I bring up an issue now, you either resort to some personal attack, like that i'm promiscuous or disobedient, or dismiss the argument entirely, and call me irrational. Or you don't answer at all.

You fight for the rights of other people who you don't care for, nor do you think exist. How can you possibly be rational.

you didn't even address the fact that 4 times more women convert to islam than men.

Quote:
Irrational? Hardly. If I was watching a show that had " Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"?"

The whole rational behind this is they are slaves, God created them as slaves and they do not have free will like me or you. They are not disobedient like humans.

These are not like the women on earth by the way, so don't attempt to identify with them.

Quote:
then that show would be sexist, or have sexist undertones. The fact that it's fiction has NO BEARING on the fact that it IS sexist.

Maybe to you that's sexist, but these are the morals this country was founded on. Whether you like it or not.

Quote:
And the fact that many people base their lives on this story is indeed troubling. So, Alma, please tell me, how is this not misogynistic and sexist? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

you women are mistreating yourselvs even worse, having sex unprotected contracting diseases, teenage birth rates skyrocketing, you think you are free?

American women are more demeaned than ever in their history, almost all the women you see on tv wear provacitive clothing to intice men, and the companies in america exploit women and sex for profit.

The new trend in college is who can wear the shortest skirts in winter. WTF is that about?? This country is WOMANIZING you more than ever.

Ever seen a rap video? See how many 'bitches' and 'hoes' they mention and how many tramps you see in the music video bearly wearing any cloths.

The fact is this country is using women as sexual tools and nothing more. Equality in this country is another smoke screen that deviates you from reality.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:I'm not implying this.

Quote:
I'm not implying this. You're either not paying attention, or you're a very concrete thinker. We are talking about the situation abstractly, and looking at the moral implication of the claim.

Then you need to think more abstract: If the 72 virgins were created by God to do a specific task, they would not disobey and why would they? They are not being tortured or persecuted.

Quote:
Anyway, I must ask: are they women or not?

First off understand the meaning of Houri.
Though technically they are not human and are angels. The houri may have a connotation of gender but in Heaven the houri can be male or female since angels do not have genders. Therefore they are awarded to all people who enter Heaven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houris

Quote:
Last I checked, women like to be free to enjoy what they choose to enjoy, just like men.

But they are not human so that argument is invalidated.

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To actually 'live in paradise' one would need to have the choice to enjoy what one wishes to enjoy. Right?

And be free from being forced to serve some role for another, right?

Paradise are awarded to the believers, not to anyone else.

Quote:
Because if that is the case, then why do you have free will? What value is it is if just gets in the way?

Man you are really veering off course here. Can you stick to one subject at a time.

you have the ability to see right from wrong, you choose what you will, but everything you do is predestined for you before even you are born.

It seems you want to pull off the argument that since everything is predetermined for you, you have no free will, hence you will use that as an excuse to commit sin and mischief. Try that and see what will happen to you.

Quote:
Aren't you just a humble servant to Allah, just as your women ought to be servants for you? If so, then why aren't you created to just service allah, without any free will?

Thats what the whole point is buddy:

Quran 51:56
{ And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone) }

you don't think you have free will, then where is the gun to your head forcing you to worship God? Can i see where is the force?

Quran 2:256
{ There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. }

Well then, if they have no free will, then they are slaves according to your worldview. Robots. So how can it truly be paradise for them?

If they can exist without free will, then why do you have it?

Quote:
We can also consider other aspects of the claim. From where do these 72 women come from? Doesn't the ratio of women to men strike you as suspicious?

Quote:
Quote:

These are not the women here on earth.

Yes, I expected this response... but then, are they really women then? If they are not from earth, if they don't have free will, then how can you refer to them as 'women' in the sense that women come from earth, and have free will?

Do you see the problem?

they are not humans.

Quote:
Quote:
And what point is there in having them be 'virgins' is sex does not occur in your version of heaven? Why even mention their virginity ?

look up the definition of houri.

Quote:
Quote:

It definitaly does exist because you have wives in heaven.

I think you are wrong here... From what I've heard, there is no sex in the islamic version of heaven.... You might want to check into that.... in fact, people don't even deficate or urinate, nor is there a need to ever drink again (once one drinks from a lake that forever quenches thirst)

By the way, do you think that you'll grow to be over 30 feet tall in your heaven? That you'll have a beard, look to be about 33 years old, etc.?

If so, how are you going to have sex with your 'wives'?

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

You will have companions in paradise, the features there are more vast than just sex, get your head out the gutter man.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:Quran 4:15. And those

Quote:
Quran 4:15. And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way.

First of all this has no bearing on what i chellenged you, you are just mearily changing the subject ONCE AGAIN.

This is the initial challenge:

demonstrate where in the Quran does it condone rape

This verse you posted has nothing to do whatsoever with rape, this verse it explaining to not allow these guilty women to escape before they recieve punishment

Here is the Verse's Explanation: Allah’s Prophet, salla-llahu `alaihi wa-sallam, said, “Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (women who commit illegal sexual intercourse): (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year”; [Muslim 3200].

Quote:
Quran 4:16: "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

you MISQUOTED JUST LIKE YOUR FRIEND LEFTOFLARY.

here is the actual quote:
Quran 4:16
{ And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both.[] And if they repent (promise Allâh that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allâh is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful. }

Furthermore, i would advise all atheists to read the Quran before they blindly post verses.

Quote:
Quran 4:34: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For God is Most High, great."

I agree with this statement 100% it is great! that is the same rules your forefathers founded this country on.

Read a history book if you don't believe me.

Quran 2:228: "And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And God is Exalted in Power, Wise."

you are taking this quote out of its context:

Quran 2:228
{ And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allâh has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses, etc.) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect, etc.) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise. }

Women have rights over men and men have rights over women. one of the reasons why men have more rights than women is because they provide for the family and work to sustain them.

Again this has NOTHING TO DO with what i challeneged you.

Why can't you people stick to the challenge without misquoting and throwing paragraphs and pages of text over the quranic evidence i requested of you?

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


aiia
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ALMALHAMAH wrote: Show me

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

Show me where in the quran does it say mistreat women.


o Menstruation is a sickness. Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222
o Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228
o Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
o Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
o Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
o Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98
o Women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
o Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59
o Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation. 64:14-15

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you are those who treat their wives in the best manner." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 217

"In the best manner? If there are 3 piles of shit, which of the piles is the best? You see - the phrase "in the best manner" is actually meaningless. It is wholly dependent on the standards prescribed by muslim men, which seems to be very very low.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Quote: Show me where in the

Quote:

Show me where in the quran does it say mistreat women.

o Menstruation is a sickness. Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222
o Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228
o Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
o Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
o Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
o Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98
o Women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
o Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59
o Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation. 64:14-15

Notice how you didn't quote post any of the verses, you put the verse titles and put your sick and twisted interpretation of it so others would already have this ignorance before they read the verse.

Next time post the verses, not your bullshit commentary

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
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Quote:"In the best manner?

Quote:
"In the best manner? If there are 3 piles of shit, which of the piles is the best? You see - the phrase "in the best manner" is actually meaningless. It is wholly dependent on the standards prescribed by muslim men, which seems to be very very low.

Let's look at your country's standards of human value.

Slavery for first hundreds of years.

Racist laws and groups like KKK and Jim crow laws.

Segregation and treating blacks as second class citizens until 1960s

currently you have spanish workers being exploited as closest to possible as slaves for cheap labor.

Wow, i guess your country sets the bar when it comes to morals.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:you seem to be

Quote:
you seem to be defending their right for free will and complaining that they are slaves when in reality you don't believe they exist.

Show me where in the quran does it say mistreat women.

in fact let me help you out:

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you are those who treat their wives in the best manner." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 217

You fight for the rights of other people who you don't care for, nor do you think exist. How can you possibly be rational.


You like to stick to issues don't you...

People have already said this, but maybe if I say it in a different way you'll get it. The point is not them existing, but how what we regurd as stories and you reguard as fact affects views on women.

Quote:
The whole rational behind this is they are slaves, God created them as slaves and they do not have free will like me or you. They are not disobedient like humans.

These are not like the women on earth by the way, so don't attempt to identify with them.


Um how big of leap do you it is to think that if women in heaven are for your pleasure women on earth are?

Quote:
Maybe to you that's sexist, but these are the morals this country was founded on. Whether you like it or not.

One, I'm not sure we are living in the same country I know for a fact no everyone here is from the same country so the statement is shaky at best.

Two, even if I asume your country was founded on some morals that doesn't prove anything about the valitiy of such morals at all.

Quote:
you women are mistreating yourselvs even worse, having sex unprotected contracting diseases, teenage birth rates skyrocketing, you think you are free?

Um that is there choice to have unprotected sex, but you know half of that is because the US has a problem with education the youth on the topic. You I don't want to point fingers, but abstiance only programs don't work.

Quote:
American women are more demeaned than ever in their history, almost all the women you see on tv wear provacitive clothing to intice men, and the companies in america exploit women and sex for profit.

Wow alma you figured out are big secret. SEX SELLS. If women want to dress like that ok, but try not to catch a cold or something...

Quote:
The new trend in college is who can wear the shortest skirts in winter. WTF is that about?? This country is WOMANIZING you more than ever.

Womanizing? Explain this principle. How does it work? Does this involve some sort of surgry?

Like I said they get to wear what they want. However we do tell them they need to cover there nipples and other areas.

Quote:
Ever seen a rap video? See how many 'bitches' and 'hoes' they mention and how many tramps you see in the music video bearly wearing any cloths.

Oh shit sex sells. Look just because some people are liking 'bitches' and 'hoes' doesn't mean I'm treating them like 'bitches' and 'hoes'. And yeah guess what there are still sexist people around my country. I don't deny this because I know hiding it is dishonest and me like breast doesn't mean I'm going to treat women shit. You know the only time I'd ask a women where she has been is if I start finding things missing around the house like large amounts of money and tvs or video game systems. That or it looks like she has just gone through some real shit.

Quote:
The fact is this country is using women as sexual tools and nothing more. Equality in this country is another smoke screen that deviates you from reality.

I find that whole striping is empowering to women iffy, but you know if she wants to make money that way its not my life. Also I am aware of lacking equality. I have heard women make less then men doing the same job, thats so bullshit. Also if a women is going to use her 'assets' to get what she wants that is a little unfair to men, especial if it involves things like getting tickets. My English class talked about this last week and all the women agreed this happened and most admitted they enjoyed. That is empowering to women, but is also a double standard some decided to keep around while others or the same women are telling men the need to work on not being so sexists. I informed them on this and they said I didn’t get it or was jealous. I told them they were ignorant, but none could call me sexist at that point because I already argued women are capable of being strong and assume male roles as well.

I believe strongly in equality if I have a daughter I will raise her to be a strong, fearless, smart, and caring woman. If I have a son I will raise him to be strong, fearless, smart and caring man. I will not hold them back from anything, see how that works?


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:First off

Hey AL,
If I am misunderstanding, and others posting here, then you must admit that NEARLY EVERYONE who calls himself a Muslim misunderstands Islam. The problem is that nearly every religious person in the western world will say that nearly every other person misunderstands. Maybe you should go try to educate your bemused fellows before bothering here.. or do you deny that there is a GIANT problem with Muslims' understanding of their own religion?

You will notice in my post that I did not quote the Koran at all. I am not interested in the Koran. I am more interested in YOU and the effect your personal (and it IS personal) interpretation of your religion has on you. Thus my questions were directed at the implications of some of the things YOU said in attempting to rationalize Islam.


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GlamourKat wrote:ALMALHAMAH

GlamourKat wrote:
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
in other words these 72 women have no voice..have no choicere nothing but sexual objects for a man that killed another man for god..think about it.

hahaha look what road you are heading down, now you actually fighting for the rights of women you don't even believe exist??

Quote:
He's clearly arguing the point abstractly, by demonstrating that the claim has negative moral implications - even if the women do not exist, it is morally troubling to imply that women are to be the 'prize' for men in heaven.

If you want to imply they do exist, lets go even further to suggest God exists then.

Second of all these are not women like here, these women are called 'hour eyen' or 'wide eyed' in english. The soul purpose of these women are to please their husbands in heaven. I doubt they mind being created to live in paradise forever. Would you? (also these women have no free will)

Doesn't this ring any bells? Women created as total objects, with no free will, for the SOLE purpose of pleasing men in "paradise"? I guess I wouldn't mind, if i'd been CREATED not to mind! They're just mindless automatons? Sexbot slavegirls out of a Star Trek episode giving Kirk a massage. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?

He's really showing his sexist colors now. I'm feeling ill.


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Quote:Womanizing? Explain

Quote:
Womanizing? Explain this principle. How does it work? Does this involve some sort of surgry?

womanize
A verb
1 feminize, feminise, effeminize, erreminise, womanize

to give a (more) feminine, effeminate, or womanly quality or appearance to; "This hairdo feminizes the man"
Category Tree:
change; alter; modify
╚feminize, feminise, effeminize, erreminise, womanize
2 philander, womanize, womanise

have amorous affairs; of men; "He has been womanizing for years"
Category Tree:
act; move
╚interact
╚philander, womanize, womanise

Look up "womanize" at Merriam-Webster
Look up "womanize" at dictionary.com

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/womanize

Quote:
Like I said they get to wear what they want. However we do tell them they need to cover there nipples and other areas.

HAHAH you just said you don't tell them what to wear. Now you tell me you tell them to cover nipples??

Wow what a contradiction.

Either tell them to dress modestly or tell them not to dress at all.

And don't point the finger when the Quran tells them what to cover and how to dress modestly.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio