A Rational Basis to Believe in God

okno
Posts: 3
Joined: 2006-10-14
User is offlineOffline
A Rational Basis to Believe in God

I'm sure this has been posted at sometime before, but after scanning the archives for 20 minutes or so I was unable to find a suitable post. That would also have deprived me of the opportunity to weigh in on the conversation =)

After reading some of the past threads I'd like to introduce myself a bit, to possibly avoid some rather well covered topics. I am m/26. I am a member of a rather specific and controversial religion (amongst religionist that is), but it shall suffice to say that I am a Christian. My religion does not require me to follow blindly. I know my leaders are not perfect, and make mistakes. I know the Bible contains errors, contradictions, and all sorts of “bad things.” I know a good amount about evolution, physics, and most things scientific. Most importantly, I am a pragmatic: if it has no use, why have it?

Rather than argue the intricacies of doctrine or the larger scale individual religious theology (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, itd…)(although I would love to do this later), I would rather discuss the rational basis for believing at all.

I would like to make the case that, rationally, it makes sense to not only believe in God but to do as you think He has commanded. Forgive my generalization, but it seems as though most people here seem to be atheist, believing that there is no God. This leads them to rely upon scientific proposals as to how we are all here. This may be another generalization, but this seems to be evolution.

Now for the subject at hand: As rational people we must concede the fact that we may be wrong. I may be wrong in my faith, you may be wrong in your faith (or… unfaith =) Perhaps I did evolve from a monkey, and when my time expires here on Earth I shall cease to exist in all forms whatsoever. At the same time, perhaps God does exist. Being an omnipotent and omniscient entity who cares about us (this shall be my definition of God), it would a minor undertaking for him to arrange things so to convince our feeble (by comparison) scientists that what they see is genuine. Either of us may be wrong.

I would like to single out what happens at the end of either of our lives. In my scenario (mind I am basing off of Christianity, which I believe to be true), I continue to live. I shall forever increase in power, knowledge and always enjoy the company of my loved ones. In your scenario, you are dead. All thoughts, and actions have ceased. It doesn’t even matter if you had 100 children to carry on your genetics, because you’re dead. What do you care?

A rational gambler will not trade a 1 out of 10 chance for a prize for a 1 out of 20 chance for the same prize. We are all taking a gamble with our beliefs, and since our beliefs are rather mutually exclusive one of us should be wrong. If I’m wrong: well, so what, I’m dead. But if you’re wrong…well you can ask your average southern Baptist minister what may await you =) (this is in jest).

Rationally, you should believe in God. Rationally, you should brainwash yourself to become the most faithful of all God’s adherents. Rationally, you should strive through the remainder of your days to be the most thoroughly single minded zealot you possibly can, because even if you’re wrong in this, you will still at least get the atheist’s reward: you’re dead.

I will come back and answer your posts, but as a disclaimer, it wont be for 10 or 12 hours. I should go to sleep, but I'll probably spend most of it with my girlfriend...


Ivan_Ivanov
Ivan_Ivanov's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:"Life

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
"Life Naturally appeared" = you admitting you have no clue how it happened.

"God created life" = you admitting you have no clue how it happened, and making shit up.

I at least am honest enough to admit that I have no clue, and don't make shit up, but patiently wait until we have a legitimate answer.

Quote:
it is a slim chance our planet developed life by 'accident' or 'naturally'.

Why doesn't it 'naturally' appear on other planets, and 'naturally' sustain life.

How do you know it doesn't?
You have seen 8 planets, and only one we gave more then a quick look. Do you know how much more planets there are in the universe there are?
A fucking lot!
To say other planets don't bare life is just plain stupid.


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
Ivan_Ivanov wrote: "God

Ivan_Ivanov wrote:

"God created life" = you admitting you have no clue how it happened, and making shit up.

I at least am honest enough to admit that I have no clue, and don't make shit up, but patiently wait until we have a legitimate answer.

That's cute, you accuse me of making things up?

I never made up anything, i follow the Quran that tells us how we were all created and how we were put on this earth.

Yea you better be honest: you ain't got a clue. Life is too complex to come about from nothing, or coinsidence.

you can patiently wait all you want but when you die, no 'refunds'. It will be too late for you.

Quote:
it is a slim chance our planet developed life by 'accident' or 'naturally'.

Why doesn't it 'naturally' appear on other planets, and 'naturally' sustain life.

How do you know it doesn't?
You have seen 8 planets, and only one we gave more then a quick look. Do you know how much more planets there are in the universe there are?
A fucking lot!
To say other planets don't bare life is just plain stupid.

Its a possibility, but most likely we don't have the resources yet to discover other planets in other galaxies. (even if we send satellites at the speed of light: c )

Furthermore, why do you think scientists are wasting billions of dollars exploring space? Because they know that there is a God, and they are marveled by His creations.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Ivan_Ivanov
Ivan_Ivanov's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:That's

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
That's cute, you accuse me of making things up?

I never made up anything, i follow the Quran that tells us how we were all created and how we were put on this earth.

Ok, I take that back.
You just believe what and idiot who had no clue about how the world works has made up.

Quote:
Yea you better be honest: you ain't got a clue. Life is too complex to come about from nothing, or coinsidence.

Todays life is significatly more complex then that which was here when it appeared.
The chances of these simple life forms appearing are not as slim.

Quote:
you can patiently wait all you want but when you die, no 'refunds'. It will be too late for you.

Oh, alright.
All the cool people are going to hell anyway.

Quote:
Its a possibility, but most likely we don't have the resources yet to discover other planets in other galaxies. (even if we send satellites at the speed of light: c )

Well duh.
But making judgements about something you have no idea, and which you most likely will have no idea during your life is... yeah, just plain stupid.

Quote:
Furthermore, why do you think scientists are wasting billions of dollars exploring space? Because they know that there is a God, and they are marveled by His creations.

Scientist spend (note: not waste) billions of dollars in order to learn as much about the universe as possible.
Their beliefs are of no relevance, but if you insist on taking them into account, what do you make of the statistics that the more people are educated the more likely they are of beeing atheists?


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Todays life is

Quote:
Todays life is significatly more complex then that which was here when it appeared.
The chances of these simple life forms appearing are not as slim.

Then why don't you and your evolutionist buddies come up with a way of creating a living organism from inorganic matter. (If the chances are not as slim)

[hint: Prof. Dr. Ali Demirsoy, one of the foremost authorities of evolutionist thought in Turkey, in his book Kalitim ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), discusses the probability of the accidental formation of Cytochrome-C, one of the essential enzymes for life:

The probability of the formation of a Cytochrome-C sequence is as likely as zero. That is, if life requires a certain sequence, it can be said that this has a probability likely to be realised once in the whole universe. Otherwise, some metaphysical powers beyond our definition should have acted in its formation. To accept the latter is not appropriate to the goals of science. We therefore have to look into the first hypothesis.

-Ali Demirsoy, Kalitim ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), Ankara: Meteksan Yayinlari , p. 61

After these lines, Demirsoy admits that this probability, which he accepted just because it was "more appropriate to the goals of science", is unrealistic:

The probability of providing the particular amino acid sequence of Cytochrome-C is as unlikely as the possibility of a monkey writing the history of humanity on a typewriter – taking it for granted that the monkey pushes the keys at random.

-Ali Demirsoy, Kalitim ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), Ankara: Meteksan Yayinlari , p. 61 ]

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


GlamourKat
GlamourKat's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote: So you

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

So you think Life just majically appeared on earth with no intervention whatsoever.

Nope, i believe that we were created in our mother's wombs and the first living human being was created out of dust.

you believe we just came about from chance or coincidence.

No I don't. I have no idea how we got here initially. Was I there? No.
But to say, "we don't know, so some supernatural entity did it" is kind of silly.

Human's created from dust? That's magic in my definition. Ever hear of a golem?

I don't think it's chance OR coincidence. I think evolution is pretty obvious in a lot of ways. You can see mutations happen all the time. But I really don't know, and you don't either.
See, this is a common thing that ticks me off when debating religion. I have to answer all these scientific questions that I don't know. But just because I don't know and you don't know does not mean your god did it.

I think getting answers would be great. I love knowledge. But I don't delude myself into thinking that I'm ever going to HAVE all the answers. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. But I won't waste my life on some ancient myths about dust and angels and gods and a giant box that people bow down to, or eatng wafers spiritually made of some dude, or wearing blankets with only my eyes sticking out, or dancing naked in the woods, or not drinking caffeine and kissing saints feet, etc.

Because noone knows. You don't, the Catholics don't, the JW's don't, the Mormons don't, the Christians don't, the Zoroastrian's don't, the pagans don't, the Egyptians don't, NOONE has proof. But all the religions SAY they do. I've looked into a lot of religions. They almost always to be the sole knowledge bearers of the secrets of the universe.

Well, I think that is nuts. I don't have to "have faith" in science to not believe in all these wacky invisible entities.

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine, and you poked it....

[/end rant]


Ivan_Ivanov
Ivan_Ivanov's picture
Posts: 126
Joined: 2006-09-10
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:Then why

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Then why don't you and your evolutionist buddies come up with a way of creating a living organism from inorganic matter. (If the chances are not as slim)

They're trying, give them time.
Asking to come up with the mechanism of abiogenesis out of the blue, is like asking someone from the medieval times to prove that the Earth is round by going around it - in a time where they had no idea how to build ships suited for such journeys, and when didn't now much about navigation.

About your Turkish professor, sorry I don't know shit about this protein forming stuff, and don't have time to find out what's it about and debunk it.
Chances are you don't know what you're talking about either, but I again atleast admit it.


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
GlamourKat wrote:I think

GlamourKat wrote:
I think getting answers would be great. I love knowledge. But I don't delude myself into thinking that I'm ever going to HAVE all the answers. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. But I won't waste my life on some ancient myths about dust and angels and gods and a giant box that people bow down to, or eatng wafers spiritually made of some dude, or wearing blankets with only my eyes sticking out, or dancing naked in the woods, or not drinking caffeine and kissing saints feet, etc.

Because noone knows.
[/end rant]

feel free to rant, that is how we can carry debate.

The Quran gives us some much needed answers:

Quran 21:30
{ Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? }

we also have answers concerning the first creation of human beings, and that God created all animals (including dinosaurs).

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


GlamourKat
GlamourKat's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote: The Quran

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

The Quran gives us some much needed answers:

Quran 21:30
{ Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? }

we also have answers concerning the first creation of human beings, and that God created all animals (including dinosaurs).

The bible claims this too.

"The earth free-floats in space (Job 26:7), affected only by gravity. While other sources declared the earth sat on the back of an elephant or turtle, or was held up by Atlas, the Bible alone states what we now know to be true – 'He hangs the earth on nothing.' "

" Creation is made of particles, indiscernible to our eyes (Hebrews 11:3). Not until the 19th century was it discovered that all visible matter consists of invisible elements."

" The Bible specifies the perfect dimensions for a stable water vessel (Genesis 6:15). Ship builders today are well aware that the ideal dimension for ship stability is a length six times that of the width. Keep in mind, God told Noah the ideal dimensions for the ark 4,500 years ago."

" Oceans contain springs (Job 38:16). The ocean is very deep. Almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness and the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the "springs of the sea." Until recently, it was thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s, with the help of deep diving research submarines that were constructed to withstand 6,000 pounds-per-square-inch pressure, oceanographers discovered springs on the ocean floors!"

" Joy and gladness understood (Acts 14:17). Evolution cannot explain emotions. Matter and energy do not feel. Scripture explains that God places gladness in our hearts (Psalm 4:7), and ultimate joy is found only in our Creator’s presence – “in Your presence is fullness of joy” (Psalm 16:11)."

"Origin of the rainbow explained (Genesis 9:13-16). Prior to the Flood there was a different environment on the earth (Genesis 2:5-6). After the Flood, God set His rainbow “in the cloud” as a sign that He would never again judge the earth by water. Meteorologists now understand that a rainbow is formed when the sun shines through water droplets – which act as a prism – separating white light into its color spectrum."

Source

There's a lot more. I could go on. And yet you deny the bible? They provide the same proof you have. According to your logic, you should believe the bible. I dunno, I think it's all grasping at straws. Twisting poetic words to make sense scientifically.


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
GlamourKat wrote:There's a

GlamourKat wrote:
There's a lot more. I could go on. And yet you deny the bible? They provide the same proof you have. According to your logic, you should believe the bible. I dunno, I think it's all grasping at straws. Twisting poetic words to make sense scientifically.

I explained already i don't completly deny the bible, because God sent to Jesus (pbuh) the Gospels, HOWEVER the bible you have now is a mix of those Gospels and other stuff added in, in order to promote the trinity (which Jesus never preached).

Proof that the bible is from man: it has contradictions.

so you see it has some scientific proof but contradicts ITSELF, how could the whole thing be from God if it is erraneous?

The christians themselves admit that their bible is altered.

The Quran does not contradict itself, nor science. This is why the Muslims after the conquest of Spain and India had a thriving civilization with technical advances in medicine, astronomy, biology, chemistry, math, etc.

Soon after they were expelled from Spain (Al-Andalous as it was previously called), the Europeans benefitted greatly from this information and ideas and BEHOLD the Renaissance/Great Awakening.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


GlamourKat
GlamourKat's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
"The Qur'an states that it

"The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25)."

Source


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:Unlike the

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Unlike the christians, we do not believe Muhammed (pbuh) is our savior. He was just a prophet revealing to us the message of true monotheism.

Muhammed came to fix the message, Jesus came to fix things. They are pretty close.

Quote:
Chrsitianity? you know they think Jesus is God, and they say God required a sacrifice... so they are implying that God came to earth to commit suicide.

You know I have already heard of this? Not all of them think Jesus is god some just think he is god's son. Plus proving chrsitianity wrong does nothing for proving islam.


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
GlamourKat wrote: 1. What

GlamourKat wrote:
1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

It is not a Contradiction but a Contradistinction

Suppose I say that in order to make a cup of tea one needs water. One also needs tea-leaves or tea powder. The two statements are not contradictory since both water and tea leaves are required in order to make a cup of tea. Furthermore if I want sweet tea I can even add sugar.

Thus there is no contradiction in the Qur’an when it says that man is created from sperm, dust and water. It is not a contradiction but a contradistinction. Contradistinction means speaking about two different concepts on the same subject without conflict. For instance if I say that the man is always truthful and a habitual liar, it is a contradiction, but if I say that a man is always honest, kind and loving, then it is a contradistinction.

The blood of all living creatures is composed of 55 percent plasma, which in turn is composed of more than 90 percent water. As opposed to 1400 centuries ago when the Qur'an was first revealed by God, today it is a well known fact that the major "ingredient" in the human body is water (a matter emphasized ONLY in the Qur'an and not in the Bible). It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust? It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


the_avenging_bucket
the_avenging_bucket's picture
Posts: 184
Joined: 2006-06-17
User is offlineOffline
nope. Desperate!

nope.
Desperate!


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
GlamourKat wrote: 2. Is

GlamourKat wrote:
2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).

There is no compulsion in religion, heres another verse to verify it
Sûrah (Chapter) 109. Al-Kâfirûn (The Disbelievers)
In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
1. Say (O Muhammad to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

Quote:
2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3)
3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).).

First of all notice that they are all in the same chapter (hinting at context).

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new religion, Islam.

What do you expect, the muslims to declare love and friendship with those that want to erradicate them?

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
[quote=GlamourKat 3. The

[quote=GlamourKat
3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

The Quran refers to every messenger as the first believer among his people. This is quite logical since the messenger is the first to receive the message. Muhammad is spoken of as the first Muslim/Believer among his people, since the revelation came to him before all others.

When we read the story of Moses in Sura 7, we read how he refered to himself as the first of the believers. Obviously Moses did not mean that he is the first believer of all time, but what he meant is that he was the first to believe from among his own people:

"When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the first of the believers." 7:143

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
GlamourKat wrote: 4. Does

GlamourKat wrote:

4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

comming up..

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


GlamourKat
GlamourKat's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2006-08-17
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote: comming

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

comming up..

No worries. That was alot of stuff i pasted. I didn't expect you to drop everything right away of course.

Smiling


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
yo can you see that post

yo can you see that post above the one that says "comming up"?

I can't see it, its all shifted to the right.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
It's like that for me, too.

It's like that for me, too.


AZSuperman01
AZSuperman01's picture
Posts: 45
Joined: 2006-09-20
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:"Life

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
"Life Naturally appeared" = you admitting you have no clue how it happened.

Admitting you don't know isn't a bad thing. Frankly he's willing to admit he doesn't know how life formed from non-life... why aren't you willing to admit the same?

God did it ISN'T AN ANSWER.

Imagine seeing a TV for the first time. Having never seen one before you would undoubtedly ask how it works. If I answered "I turned it on," you would not accept that as an answer. You would want to know HOW the TV works - what principles allow it to work - what mechanics allow it to work - etc...

You believe God made non-living material into plants, animals, and people. Okay. HOW?

How did God create matter from nothing?

How did God make dust/water/blood/sperm/clay (whichever you decide to reference) become alive?

YOU DON'T KNOW! You have been told God did it, using special "God powers" that humans don't have. You have no idea how these magical powers work, you have no idea why these magic powers exist.

God did it doesn't answer the question - it's a superstitious, fluffy, false answer, not a real explanation.

If doctors accepted the superstitious explanation for illness, we would perform excorcisms in hospitals - instead of operations. We wouldn't have vaccines or antibiotics.

In order to make progress, mankind needs to push past the fluffy answers and dig for the real truth. Find the real reasons for diseases and cancer, find the real reason behind biogenesis... admitting we don't have the answer is a good move - it means we're still looking for it.

Quote:
Out of all the planets we've seen none can sustain life except earth, and none have protective barriers to protect life except earth

it is a slim chance our planet developed life by 'accident' or 'naturally'.

Why doesn't it 'naturally' appear on other planets, and 'naturally' sustain life.


its amazing how the same evidence can be used for both sides. There are 8 planets, and 134 moons. You believe the universe was created for the sole purpose of supporting human life... yet you admit that out of 142 "heavenly bodies" all but one is absolutely fatal to human existence... Even on this planet, most of it could not support human life without the aid of man-made devices! (Over 70% of the surface is water, of the land areas, many are too dry, others are too wet, and many are too cold, for humans to live without artifical support of some kind.)

The places which will support human life can (and do) become deadly as well - with earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados, lightening, etc. There are numerous animals and planets which are either poisenous to humans, or who hunt humans.

Even the star this planet orbits kills millions of people each year!

When you take the rest of the universe into the mix, 99.999...% of the known universe will NOT support human life. To me, this is not evidence of a divine creator. If the planet/solar system/universe was created for humans, then we should expect it to be friendly to humans.

The fact that 99.999...% of the universe is hostile to human life doesn't prove God didn't create it - but it makes it appear VERY doubtful that he did it for the sake of humans.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
this is a repost of what i

this is a repost of what i already posted that got shifted to the right.

GlamourKat wrote:

3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

The Quran refers to every messenger as the first believer among his people. This is quite logical since the messenger is the first to receive the message. Muhammad is spoken of as the first Muslim/Believer among his people, since the revelation came to him before all others.

When we read the story of Moses in Sura 7, we read how he refered to himself as the first of the believers. Obviously Moses did not mean that he is the first believer of all time, but what he meant is that he was the first to believe from among his own people:

"When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the first of the believers." 7:143

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


caligula
caligula's picture
Posts: 3
Joined: 2006-10-24
User is offlineOffline
Are we wasting our time and effort

Hello evreyone. I am new here and I have a question to ask the atheists. As atheists our time is precious since we know that our lives are finite. Do you think that using our limited time to argue with diehard theists is a waste of this priceless resource? In my opinion, a discussion is only worth having if the underlying goal is to reach a rational conclusion. Therefore shouldnt we have these discussions with those who also live their lives according to the principals of reason and logic. I am not saying that we shouldnt talk to theists. I am only suggesting that we focus more on preventative measures rather than a cure. Please reply. I ask this question because I don't know if this is the best way to help our society. Thats right all you theists out there, I said those dreadful words. I dont know.


Insidium Profundis
Posts: 295
Joined: 2006-10-04
User is offlineOffline
You know, my time on this

You know, my time on this earth might be valuable, but I also enjoy heated debate, even if my opponent is completely obdurate.

Plus, my time is more valuable spent procrastinating doing schoolwork than actually doing it. Laughing out loud

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


Insidium Profundis
Posts: 295
Joined: 2006-10-04
User is offlineOffline
Hey ALMALHAMAH, I just read

Hey ALMALHAMAH, I just read this thread and I see you're making lots of bullshit claims about evolution, along with fallacious appeals to authorities that are clearly not all that authorized.

Do you want the chance to take them back or should I start demolishing them?

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
It isn't a waste of time if

It isn't a waste of time if people think about it. As for preventative measures I don't know. I mean it sounds like you're saying do something with children, but the theist talk to their kids too. If someone really doesn't want to listen or refuses to even consider the idea that their belief has a flaw then there isn't much that can be done to change their mind. However there are a ton of people who don't think about it, but keep doing all the church stuff and give the church cash and tell their kids to believe this is how the world should work. Really I don't see any other way to change things but bring the issue up.


highraven
highraven's picture
Posts: 16
Joined: 2006-10-03
User is offlineOffline
AMEN!!

AMEN!! Peace


AZSuperman01
AZSuperman01's picture
Posts: 45
Joined: 2006-09-20
User is offlineOffline
I'm sure most of us don't

I'm sure most of us don't expect to convert diehard theists. Someone needs to be open to the possibility of being wrong before they have a chance of realizing they are.

That being said, I don't think debating is a waste of time. People who are beginning to question their faith look to boards like this for information. For every diehard theist who defends his/her faith, there are 10 doubting theists reading the posts. Although the actual poster may never convert, the people who read the replies will see how easily the arguments are put away... and they may realize what shaky ground their faith is built on.

Even if the diehards never realize how poor their logic is, others will... and others will realize the truth. This stops the doubting theists from simply being spoon fed the same sorry answers.

In this way debating with diehards theists IS a preventative measure.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See


skeptic griggsy
skeptic griggsy's picture
Posts: 37
Joined: 2006-11-01
User is offlineOffline
God's sterility

As a strong atheist ,I declare that all theists do is to put old garbage into new cans that we promptly empty.Since no arguments for God hold up and never will , the absence of evidence here is the evidence of absence and not an argument from ignorance. Keith Parsons says" Occult powers wielded by a transcedent being in an inscrutable way for unfathomable purposes just do not seem to be any sort of a good explanation.Theistic 'explanations' therefore only seem to serve the purpose of hiding our ignorance behind a theological fig leaf." The explanation amounts to the tautology that God wills what He wills.

morgan L lamberth Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.
" God is in a worse position than the scarecow who had a body to which a mind could enter whilst He has neither. He is that married bachelor. No wonder He is ineffable!" Ignostic Morgan"
"Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Inquiring Lynn
Please support mental health and take the stigma off metnal illnes!


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
The funny thing is, instead

The funny thing is, instead of researching and learning that there is a God out there, you athiests do nothing but work hard to try to disprove God.

maybe you should all be a little more open minded.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Zhwazi
Zhwazi's picture
Posts: 459
Joined: 2006-10-06
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:The funny

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
The funny thing is, instead of researching and learning that there is a God out there, you athiests do nothing but work hard to try to disprove God.

maybe you should all be a little more open minded.


Actually I spend all my time challenging my own beliefs. It would be pointless to attempt to disprove god. God, by it's very nature, cannot be proven or disproven. My conclusion about god is that god always seems to exist in a realm that is unreachable by us, and hence untestable by us, and hence unknowable by us, so it's really an obvious contradiction to assert knowledge about the god in such untestable realm because you are saying you know something that nobody can know. If god were in a testable realm he would be provable. I'm not stupid enough to contradict myself and attempt to say that such realm as God might exist in is absolutely impossible, I just reject the idea that anybody can actually have a rational certainty that it exists. Yes, god might exist, but if that god exists where he is unreachable by us no knowledge can exist, and where he is reachable by us no evidence exists.

I'm not here to preach atheism, I'm not gonna convert anyone here. I'm here for the "rational" part so I can argue with socialists and verbally berate them for claiming to be rational while relying on irrational premises, and so far it's been working. Some of them have stopped responding.


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
The thing that we must

The thing that we must understand is that we cannot see God. We are limited to this finite universe and we are made of one nature. God is of a completly different nature, therefore we cannot, and should not expect to see Him during our lifetime, no matter how much you want to.

If you look at the universe and the earth and all life on this planet it is apparant that none of this can come about by itself. I have never heard of such complex systems develop by themselves for example a computer or airplane.

Many athiests here try their hardest to disprove the existence of God. which means they are not actually looking for God and searching for Him. They will know Him when they reach death.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Zhwazi
Zhwazi's picture
Posts: 459
Joined: 2006-10-06
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:The thing

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
The thing that we must understand is that we cannot see God. We are limited to this finite universe and we are made of one nature. God is of a completly different nature, therefore we cannot, and should not expect to see Him during our lifetime, no matter how much you want to.

And this is precisely why I cannot believe anyone that says they know anything about god. We cannot see god. We are limited to this universe. To say that we cannot know anything about god and then say you know something about god is contradictory.

Quote:
If you look at the universe and the earth and all life on this planet it is apparant that none of this can come about by itself. I have never heard of such complex systems develop by themselves for example a computer or airplane.

Computers and airplanes are tools, and do not produce for their own consumption nor reproduce. Life is very different, the same rules don't apply.

Quote:
Many athiests here try their hardest to disprove the existence of God. which means they are not actually looking for God and searching for Him. They will know Him when they reach death.

Atheists that try to disprove god are wasting their time. Atheists and theists generally agree on the point that god is unknowable and untestable. Searching for the unknowable and untestable is as much a waste of time as attempting to disprove the unknowable and untestable.


kmisho
kmisho's picture
Posts: 298
Joined: 2006-08-18
User is offlineOffline
Computers were developed by

Computers were developed by us and we happened naturally and so computers are naturally occuring too, actually.

Complexity is irrelevant. Nothing is complex in and of itself but is complex in relation to something else less complex. The argument, then, must be that complexity above a certain level cannot happen by itself. From this the questions are: just how complex are we talking about and why can't it happen by itself?

No creationist can answer these questions...because there is no right answer. Complexity can occur naturally to any possible degree because there is nothing stopping it from doing so, except entropy being locally dominant. If there is a constant influx of energy from, say, a star that burns for 10 billion years, staggering levels of complexity are possible. DNA is an example.


Zhwazi
Zhwazi's picture
Posts: 459
Joined: 2006-10-06
User is offlineOffline
Stars don't burn for 10

Stars don't burn for 10 billion years. They explode or collapse by then.


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Alma I think you worked

Alma I think you worked yourself into a wall here...

You basically tell us that atheist don't research religion or god.

However if I remember right one member on the squad had gone to collage for theology. Also I can tell you right now I have looked into the arguments for god myself. Such a claim is bold and unproven.

You then talk about how if we try to find god we won't see him.

Well if that is true then why would you think we should research god?


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Complexity is

Quote:
Complexity is irrelevant. Nothing is complex in and of itself but is complex in relation to something else less complex. The argument, then, must be that complexity above a certain level cannot happen by itself. From this the questions are: just how complex are we talking about and why can't it happen by itself?

we are talking about life and first amino acids and DNA/RNA strands and how they came about by itself.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Zhwazi
Zhwazi's picture
Posts: 459
Joined: 2006-10-06
User is offlineOffline
What science does is attempt

What science does is attempt to gain understanding. I don't know how the original amino acids were formed in such a way as to create life. We haven't figured that out yet. But we're trying to.

What religion does is explain and then contending that there is nothing else to know about it.

Religious people tend to assume that the scientific explanation takes on the property of the religious explanation that there is nothing else that can be known about it, which is mistaken.

I don't pretend to know everything that is necessary to know about the origin of life. Religious people do. I'm not silly enough to claim knowledge in what I do not know.


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
okno wrote: Most

okno wrote:
Most importantly, I am a pragmatic: if it has no use, why have it?

I couldn't agree more, that's why I dumped the god-concept.
Actually there were many logical reasons why I rejected the god-concept.

By the way "if it has no use, why have it" is not pragmatism.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


Insidium Profundis
Posts: 295
Joined: 2006-10-04
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote:we are

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
we are talking about life and first amino acids and DNA/RNA strands and how they came about by itself.

As mentioned earlier, we do not yet know. But I think it's more reasonable to say that we don't know, but to try to find out, than to simply accept an answer that was arrived at unscientifically. Also, I keep reiterating this point, but you keep evading it, but saying "God did it" tells us nothing of the mechanism of how anything occurs. In other words, it's the equivalent of saying "we don't know" dressed up as "we cannot possibly be wrong."

Pay attention: just because science has not yet explained something does not mean that it cannot be explained scientifically. This refers solely to things we observe in our universe.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
Complexity is irrelevant. Nothing is complex in and of itself but is complex in relation to something else less complex. The argument, then, must be that complexity above a certain level cannot happen by itself. From this the questions are: just how complex are we talking about and why can't it happen by itself?

we are talking about life and first amino acids and DNA/RNA strands and how they came about by itself.

It is easier to imagine that life came about naturally then to imagine a magic invisible being created it.
Who created the creator? Don’t give me that childish camel shit that god always existed.
It is easier to imagine that nature always existed, because that, in fact, is a fact.
Something cannot come from nothing.
There is no evidence of any god and that, my friend, is provable.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
The thing that we must understand is that we cannot see God. We are limited to this finite universe and we are made of one nature. God is of a completly different nature, therefore we cannot, and should not expect to see Him during our lifetime, no matter how much you want to.

If you look at the universe and the earth and all life on this planet it is apparant that none of this can come about by itself. I have never heard of such complex systems develop by themselves for example a computer or airplane.

Many athiests here try their hardest to disprove the existence of God. which means they are not actually looking for God and searching for Him. They will know Him when they reach death.

The thing that you must understand is that you cannot see any god because it does not exit. The universe is not finite; the universe is infinite and yes, we are a part of nature because we are natural.

If you believe no one can see this god, then why do you believe mohammed saw it? Where is the evidence that mohammed saw it? Where is there any evidence that it exists? There is none.
This god has no complexity because it does not exist.

When I think about the universe from the scientific perspective it is easy to realize that it has always existed based on the scientific data we’ve gathered about it recently. It is also easier to see how false the concept of a god is because with so much evidence of the cosmos, understanding the universe is just so very much a cohesive realization and the god/concept is completely incoherent. The god brainfart is a gross fantasy.

It is easy to prove there is no god:
When there should be evidence of a things existence because of the attributes of the claim, the object of that claim should exude evidence of its existence based on the dynamism of those attributes. As man’s scientific instruments has permeated the universe to beyond the quantum scale in particle accelerators to the cosmological walls of the microwave reflectation barrier of the universe itself, there is an overwhelming lack of evidence of any god. If there is no evidence of a god in the 100’s of 1000’s of scientific research projects ever performed throughout history, there can only be one logical conclusion. The lack of evidence is, in itself and of itself, evidence.

Thus:
P1 - If there's no evidence of a god, then the lack of evidence of a god is evidence that there is no god.
P2 - There is no evidence of a god
C - Therefore there is no god

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


AZSuperman01
AZSuperman01's picture
Posts: 45
Joined: 2006-09-20
User is offlineOffline
Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
Also, I keep reiterating this point, but you keep evading it, but saying "God did it" tells us nothing of the mechanism of how anything occurs. In other words, it's the equivalent of saying "we don't know" dressed up as "we cannot possibly be wrong."

Have you ever noticed that anytime a theist answers a question with "God did it," you can substitute "It happened by magic" and get the same result?

How was the universe created?
It happened by magic

How did life originate?
It happened by magic

Both "God did it" and "It happened by magic" are false answers. Neither actually address the question.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See


ALMALHAMAH
ALMALHAMAH's picture
Posts: 269
Joined: 2006-10-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote:It is easier to

Quote:
It is easier to imagine that life came about naturally then to imagine a magic invisible being created it.
Who created the creator? Don’t give me that childish camel shit that god always existed.

Sorry but od is not human he does not need to be born or come about, he is and always was.

you have to understand you are bogged down by the time domain as a result of the Big Bang. God is not restricted by this Domain hence He always existed. Dont ask questions to those which you already know the answer.

Quote:
It is easier to imagine that nature always existed, because that, in fact, is a fact.
Something cannot come from nothing.
There is no evidence of any god and that, my friend, is provable.

Why dont you explain where the first life form origionated from, which is the initial part of this discussion. and see how 'provable' your answer is.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
ALMALHAMAH wrote: Quote:It

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Quote:
It is easier to imagine that life came about naturally then to imagine a magic invisible being created it.
Who created the creator? Don’t give me that childish camel shit that god always existed.

Sorry but od is not human he does not need to be born or come about, he is and always was.


Did I just hear someone say the tooth fairy came?
What god? Provide evidence for this gawd.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
you have to understand you are bogged down by the time domain as a result of the Big Bang.

Bog? what bog? Time always existed.

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
God is not restricted by this Domain hence He always existed. Dont ask questions to those which you already know the answer.

Again, what god?

ALMALHAMAH wrote:

Quote:
It is easier to imagine that nature always existed, because that, in fact, is a fact.
Something cannot come from nothing.
There is no evidence of any god and that, my friend, is provable.

Why dont you explain where the first life form origionated from, which is the initial part of this discussion. and see how 'provable' your answer is.


Why don't you provide evidence for this god thing you continue to fantasize about?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


Zhwazi
Zhwazi's picture
Posts: 459
Joined: 2006-10-06
User is offlineOffline
AiiA, stop saying god

AiiA, it's not important that god doesn't exist. It's not important that there is no evidence for god.

What is important is that if God does exist, everyone agrees that he exists in an unknowable realm, we can never determine anything about that realm, and therefore God.

What is important is that he is contradicting himself by saying he knows something that he admits nobody can know. Nothing else matters. His arguement refutes itself.