Punk/metal's message?

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Punk/metal's message?

This is what has already been posted from another thread and I didn't want to take over that one so here is a new one.

MarthaSplatterhead wrote:
Insidium Profundis wrote:
Punk is inferior to metal, anyway, though the Christophile pestilence infests it in some small doses.

Haha. I used to say the same thing to my husband but I appreciate both now. Punk for it's political power and metal for it's rockability.

Insidium Profundis wrote:
MarthaSplatterhead wrote:
Insidium Profundis wrote:
Punk is inferior to metal, anyway, though the Christophile pestilence infests it in some small doses.

Haha. I used to say the same thing to my husband but I appreciate both now. Punk for it's political power and metal for it's rockability.

If this is what you believe, you fundamentally misunderstand the philosophical, ideological, and aesthetic developments of metal since the emergence of black and death metal. I do not wish to derail this thread, however...

I fundamentally misunderstand the philosophical, ideological, and aesthetic developments of metal since black and death metal emerged? Hmmm....so what you are saying is that you don't agree that metal isn't merely rocking but it's political as well. If you knew me, (which you don't) you would find that I already am aware of this. I was just simplifying what you said initially that punk was inferior to rock. (In which, I thought you were kidding, because that is a matter of opinion). I like just about all types of music and find certain forms fitting for certain situations. My 8 year old kid likes the Gorillas, and I like them with him. I love some metal bands, some I don't. I love a lot of punk and some I don't. I have been providing a place for bands to play at my house for 5 years now and the local bar. The shows are all ages (except the bar). I let people sleep over and cook the people in the bands food in the morning. It annoys me when people assume so much before a real point was even made. Instantly going for the put down instead of asking me to expand.


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Before I begin replying, I

Before I begin replying, I want you to know that none of my posts are an attack on you; merely an attack on what you post. So please do not be disturbed.

MarthaSplatterhead wrote:
I fundamentally misunderstand the philosophical, ideological, and aesthetic developments of metal since black and death metal emerged? Hmmm....so what you are saying is that you don't agree that metal isn't merely rocking but it's political as well.

Metal is not political in the sense that it is not CNN-music, unlike much of punk. Realize that having a political opinion does not automatically make the opinion relevant, and what I've found to be true of most punk rock is that a few abrasive screams of ANARCHY RULZ, or CORPORATIONS SUCK does not convey anything meaningful. I despise CNN-metal bands, such as Cattle Decapitation, whose death metal consists of praises for vegetarianism, or Six Feet Under, who recently released "Amerika the Brutal," a bleeding-heart liberal inability comprehend and put into context the horrors of war and their reality. This pandering to the spotlight of the week, where musicians take up a trivial "cause" (usually for publicity reasons) detracts from the artistic meaning of the music. (Let's not discuss Bono here please). Anyway, the death metal aesthetic is utterly contrary to the Judeochristian perspective and worldview. It is the essence of blasphemy against the feeble Judeochristian mindset.

Morbid Angel wrote:
Hot wind burns me
Burning as I fall
Cast away

Speechless in the holy way
I survive
The scourge and banishing
To scorching land
I am lord, I take command

(Fall from grace)

Forgive me not
This knowledge makes me strong
To resurrect
The cities of the damned
All the treasure of sodom
Now belong to me - celebrate
Fallen angels take my hand

(Fall from grace)

Whores long for my flesh
And my desire
Lust annointing me now
Consume my soul

(I ride the flesh and the sinners of hell
I am Belial
I bend my knee not but for my selfish desire)

This is naturally dismissed as juvenile by most, but it represents the destruction of Christian morality, yet from an authoritative and capable perspective (as opposed to a victim's).

The majority of my metal collection consists not of "rocking" tracks (to which one would mindlessly headbang between beer bongs), but of artistic expressions of some of the most fringe of dark human emotions and imagery. I'd say this makes metal more meaningful as an art form than punk rock. One of the primary motivators for death and black metal is the distaste for Abrahamic religion, and egalitarianism. I consider it to be good and strong.

Quote:
If you knew me, (which you don't) you would find that I already am aware of this. I was just simplifying what you said initially that punk was inferior to rock.

I know you only through that which you post. I make assumptions, yes, but I am certainly willing to have them dispelled. The very fact that you equate metal with rock displays a significant lack of knowledge on your part. Though metal is in some ways derived from rock, recent accomplishments have veered greatly from that old genre.

Quote:
(In which, I thought you were kidding, because that is a matter of opinion).

I was not kidding, but of course it is a matter of opinion.

Quote:
I like just about all types of music and find certain forms fitting for certain situations. My 8 year old kid likes the Gorillas, and I like them with him. I love some metal bands, some I don't. I love a lot of punk and some I don't. I have been providing a place for bands to play at my house for 5 years now and the local bar. The shows are all ages (except the bar). I let people sleep over and cook the people in the bands food in the morning.

Are you trying to impress me with your open-mindedness?

Quote:
It annoys me when people assume so much before a real point was even made. Instantly going for the put down instead of asking me to expand.

What, precisely, have I assumed, except your obvious ignorance of metal (a notion I obtained after analyzing the evidence - your posts)? The word ignorance, as used in this context, is not pejorative, merely descriptive.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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Look here, all I am saying

Look here, all I am saying is that I think you are missing my point that I am indeed aware of metal being more than head banging/pot smoking (an idea that makes me laugh because I grew up in the 80s and seen a lot of that) in this new era of it.

Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to impress you with my "open-mindedness" but rather my devotion to supplying the youth of my town with unknown bands. See, punk rock was what helped me when I didn't fit in with your "head bangers/pot smokers" or my own xtian family. Smiling When I heard Black Flag for the first time I was "home" (not U2, puh-leeze). Punk of the 80s-present gave me answers where I wasn't finding them in metal of my early days.

You keep implying that I am "obviously ignorant of metal after the evidence of my posts". This is an assumption made after how many posts? Give me a break. What do you want from me? A list of the bands I grew up that shaped who I am today? I really doubt that. My avatar is a freaking metal/punk band.

Quote:

Though metal is in some ways derived from rock, recent accomplishments have veered greatly from that old genre.

I agree. I'm 35 and have seen metal go in all directions since my teens. Excuse my (obviously, in your opinion) outdated slang of "rocking" because all I meant was that metal has a driving drum beat and it just makes me want to get up off my seat.

Well, I hope that clears that up. Okie-dokie? Listening


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To judge one type of music

To judge one type of music over another is simply a matter of opinion. I'm a huge metal head....more of the progressive speed power metal type (which before Dragonforce was not very well liked here in the states). But, I also listen to Punk Rock, Real Hip Hop, 90's Seatle Sound, Cranberries, Ben Folds, and yes...even Dave Matthews. Music is a release of emotions... and no one style is better or worse than any other, much like no skin color is better or worse than any other.

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MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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LeftofLarry wrote:To judge

LeftofLarry wrote:
To judge one type of music over another is simply a matter of opinion. I'm a huge metal head....more of the progressive speed power metal type (which before Dragonforce was not very well liked here in the states). But, I also listen to Punk Rock, Real Hip Hop, 90's Seatle Sound, Cranberries, Ben Folds, and yes...even Dave Matthews. Music is a release of emotions... and no one style is better or worse than any other, much like no skin color is better or worse than any other.

Sweet...now that's what I'm talking about. Cool


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I like both metal and punk -

I like both metal and punk - though mostly the punk of the 1970s and Metal of the 1980s. Never touched an illegal drug in my life.

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Totally there with

Totally there with Larry.

I'll never understand the need to label a 'style' of music other than good music or bad music.

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Insidium Profundis
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It is not a necessary

It is not a necessary compulsion; it is a utilization of one's free will. The ability to discriminate is a useful one. Furthermore, this thread is in dire need of Maddox:

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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Celine Dion Sucks isn't an

Celine Dion Sucks isn't an opinion. It is a fact. Even Jesus hates her fucking guts. Laughing out loud


Insidium Profundis
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There's a quote I like that

There's a quote I like that goes "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." Smiling

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


darth_josh
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Except our minds are small

Except our minds are small compared to a fortress and we can't open up gates in our head to let people in or let ourselves out. An 'open mind' wouldn't need to be a fortress anyway. What use would a fortress with open gates be for anyway?
I guess that metaphor just doesn't work for me. How does it relate to music? Would the fortress be like a stadium? Do people pay for tickets into fortresses?
I digress.

Discrimination is in the 'nature' of primitive man only because of the learned concept.
We know same and different comparison. However, we must be taught to discriminate. I, for one, had to re-condition myself in order to deprogram the little pieces of discrimination taught by my 'ancestors'.

Now, I discriminate against people for reasons. Such as Neo-Nazis. I have many reasons for discriminating against them.

Music, on the other hand, need not be corrupted by my opinions or labels. I don't like music that 'glorifies' the less than good facets of society simply because those qualities exhibited by that music are not worthy of propagating other bad qualities in people. This includes opinions about genres of music ranging from Punk to Country and all over. Sing about being a redneck woman like it's a bad thing. Sing about being a punk like you wish you weren't. etc.

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Some music is art, much is

Some music is art, much is not. Musical art is a sort of abstract method of communicating ideas (since it is primarily sensual), and I see no reason to accept music that either fails entirely to communicate with the listener (start from Mr. Cent and end anywhere between Shania Twain, Britney Spears, Greenday, or Dave Matthews) or communicates putrid ideas. This is why Christian music disgusts me, as does rap and alternative rock.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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Here try this: Pretend you

Here try this:
Pretend you know nothing about them and listen to the music.

http://www.flyleafmusic.com

Lyrics to song first playing:

Fully Alive

Telling layla's story spoken
About how all her bones are broken
hammers fall on all the peices
two months in the cover creases

Fully alive, more than most
ready to smile and love life.
Fully alive and she knows
How to believe in futures.

All my complaints shrink to nothing.
I'm ashamed of all my somethings.
She's glad for one day of comfort
Only because she has suffered.

Fully alive, more than most
ready to smile and love life.
Fully alive and she knows
How to believe in futures.

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Insidium Profundis
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Whiny and unassertive, this

Whiny and unassertive, this reminds me of the token depressed emo kid within any self-respecting middle school clique. I dislike the lyrics also, which promote complacency and limiting oneself to what one has, not to mention the morally masochistic guilt-tripping over the fact that someone is a disfigured wreck who is satisfied with what little she has and you dare complain about things.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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The only criticism I have of

The only criticism I have of music these days is that it has, like most other things, become a commodity for profits. if you sell yourself to the music industry I have lost respect. If you sell out stadiums based on your art...then you gain respect. There is a difference between being an entertainer and being an artist. I respect artists. Entertainers, however will sell out in a heartbeat....it is the ambition and the drive to make artists artists and entertainers...well...sell out. One is from the heart, the other from the pocket.

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A lot of music is obviously

A lot of music is obviously written from a particular political, spiritual or whatever angle. Art is used as a means to express many things.

It's also, shockingly enough, sometimes used to express nothing but to exist unto itself as a piece of art.

I like a lot of punk, I like some metal, mostly I prefer stuff that people label as "Gothic". That has nothing to do with Marilyn Manson by they way nor do I care for "Gothic Metal", whatever that's supposed to be other than metal bands wearing eyeliner.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that every piece of music has to be pushing this or that or that any genre can be said to be more this or that than another. Kicking it old school: Suicidal Tendencies wrote a lot of socially consious stuff and Slayer wrote a lot of blood and guts, horror movie stuff. Both of them were in the metal bin.

As for Morbid Angel, I always liked their lyrics for the Lovecraftian touches and some of the word choice but I never saw them as endorsing anything so much as playinig the part of the villian and probably having a good laugh about it. "Nazarene, now I crown you King of Pain. Rawr. Suffer." I mean, come on. How the hell are you going to take that seriously beyond it being very well-constructed shock and horror?

Looking for all this meaning in everything just seems like looking for Mary in the grilled cheese sometimes. It's music you like or don't like. Personally, I fucking hate Emo. Being that constitues only my opinion, I really can't say "Emo sucks" because how the fuck do I know? Someone likes it. Let them like it.

With all the stupid opinions people hold that really do cause damage in this world, shave your mo, grow you skanky ass hair, whine about your girlfriend leaving you, how much the government sucks or how you intend to dissect Jesus but realize that, as members of subcultures with really slight differences, you have far more in common than you have in contrast.

The religious right hates the punx as much as they hate the metalheads. I'm a goth, believe me, the fucking *loathe* us. How about we quit quibbling over really irresolvable and irrelevant things and move on to something important?


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Quote:I really can't say

Quote:
I really can't say "Emo sucks" because how the fuck do I know? Someone likes it. Let them like it.

you can say emo sucks and someone can still like it. (it does, of course, and they do.) there is a lot of music that i would consider 'bad music' that i enjoy. even some emo. i thought everybody had guilty pleasure songs.

at any rate, captain beefheart totally ownz all over whatever genre youd like to mention.

Quote:
I don't do lullabyes. I'm tired of lullabyes, like The Beatles. I heard *Lullabye of Broadway* when I was a baby, and I still hear it now, and I'm still a baby. We're the only people doing anything significant in modern music. I haven't heard anything else that gets away from mother's heartbeat. All I've heard is a rebelling against parents, and I'm tired of hearing that.

me too, don. me too.

"In depriving myself of the acorns... what have we learned? Nothing! Not one of us has learned!
"Which isn't my point, but very well could have been."
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if anybody's seen the

if anybody's seen the metal-oriented documentary that's been played into the ground on VH1 recently, i think Lemmy Kilmister summed this discussion up best. he said something to the effect that " politicians don't listen to rock music, and don't give a fuck what rock musicians are saying because it's ineffectual anyways."
and it's the truth. look at the veritable armies of fans that punk and metal have accrued, and the ratio to what action has been taken by said armies. totally ineffectual...almost pacifying....

Fear is the mindkiller.


averyv
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Quote:look at the veritable

Quote:
look at the veritable armies of fans that punk and metal have accrued, and the ratio to what action has been taken by said armies. totally ineffectual...almost pacifying....

is that the fault of the politicians? or the teeming hordes?

i think the problem is in this statement:

"politicians don't listen to rock music, and don't give a fuck what rock musicians are saying because it's ineffectual anyways."

yeah, well punks shouldnt pay attention to politics, and dont need to listen to politicians because their laws are totally ineffectual anywayz. and then we scream 'anarchy!' and wear black and get pissy with people who dont think like us. not toimply that you, drfear, are a 'punk' in any sense. in a typical sense, they are far more frustrated than they are sensible.

more seriously, if there is a large (any) poplulation that actually has something to say in this arena, i think it should most definitely be heard. there is a pirate party in germany. why dont we havea pirate party? i want to vote pirate.

however: look at the actual armies, with actual tanks, standing before the action of the armies that you describe, and then consider how much success you might expect such a group to have given a single-minded and otherwise poorly managed education combined with manufactured cultural divides.

poor kids. either spend so much time raging against the machine that they forget to do anything or just forget to do anything altogether.

Quote:
as members of subcultures with really slight differences, you have far more in common than you have in contrast.

of course, 90% of everything is nothing, so we should all be getting along much better than we are, but no one really pays attention to the important numbers.

"In depriving myself of the acorns... what have we learned? Nothing! Not one of us has learned!
"Which isn't my point, but very well could have been."
— Ashley Raymond, Olympia, 1989


Yellow_Number_Five
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Meh, music either rocks or

Meh, music either rocks or it don't. It either grabs you and makes the feet want to tap or not. The message, whatever it is, be damned if it doesn't do that.

Not to say that I don't like witty lyrics that have something to say or make me laugh. A big reason I love bands like Bad Religion and NOFX are the stoic and blunt sincerity on one hand, and the complete irreverence on the other.

I can find something I like in almost any genre. I tend to prefere ska, punk and metal as that is what I was weened on. Still, I LOVE Jonny Cash and Jimmy Buffet, as well as lots of other stuff I'm too embarrassed to share - simply depends on the mood.

And as for the sentiment that music has to change the world or serve as a platform for doing so, fuck that. If anything, music should bring us together and give us common ground. I remember shows as a kid where Nazi thugs and Rastafarians got along, at least for a few hours.

In the imortal words of Operation Ivy: "Music is an indirect force for change, because it provides an anchor against human tradgedy. In this sense, it works towards a reconciled world. It can also be the direct experience of change; at certain points during some shows the reconciled world is already here at least in that second in that place. Operation Ivy was very lucky to have experienced this. Those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope."

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Same here. I like Jimmy

Same here. I like Jimmy Buffet and Johnny Cash (except the religious stuff.)


Insidium Profundis
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Music is two things: art and

Music is two things: art and a consumable. Effective art stimulates thought of some sort within the listener's mind. Consumables (just about anything on MTV for the last 6 years) are there to be consumed by plebeians.

Regardless, it is unlikely to change society's perspectives (especially political ones). I disagree with 80% of metal fans on a large amount of issues, but I agree that metal is an effective artform.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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averyv wrote: is that the

averyv wrote:

is that the fault of the politicians? or the teeming hordes?

obviously, the hordes.
averyv wrote:

i think the problem is in this statement:

"politicians don't listen to rock music, and don't give a fuck what rock musicians are saying because it's ineffectual anyways."


that statement isn't the problem, it's the fact. the 'hordes' rally behind the bands because they think their message is being communicated loud and clear, when really, it's just preaching to the choir.

averyv wrote:
not toimply that you, drfear, are a 'punk' in any sense.

thanks. i eat punks for breakfast.

hmm...i'll have to get some hard statistics on fanbases for hardline musical genres like death/black metal and hardcore. i'm pretty sure there are enough of them to completely outnumber the beleaguered Army/National Guard....i mean seriously, that would only take what, 2, 3 million, organized? i'm pretty sure there's at least thrice that, if not more.

Fear is the mindkiller.


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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:In

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
In the imortal words of Operation Ivy: "Music is an indirect force for change, because it provides an anchor against human tradgedy. In this sense, it works towards a reconciled world. It can also be the direct experience of change; at certain points during some shows the reconciled world is already here at least in that second in that place. Operation Ivy was very lucky to have experienced this. Those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope."

Where is that from, one of their songs?


Yellow_Number_Five
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KSMB

KSMB wrote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
In the imortal words of Operation Ivy: "Music is an indirect force for change, because it provides an anchor against human tradgedy. In this sense, it works towards a reconciled world. It can also be the direct experience of change; at certain points during some shows the reconciled world is already here at least in that second in that place. Operation Ivy was very lucky to have experienced this. Those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope."

Where is that from, one of their songs?

The liner notes to the Energy album, I believe.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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I know music doesn't have a

I know music doesn't have a message Eye-wink so here are lyrics to a song I wanted to share from one of my favorite bands, Born-Against. Btw, I was a confused xtain when I got this album and it helped me be a stronger person and make final decision to become atheist.

EULOGY
There was this friend of mine, needed something we couldn't give
convenient answers and a cheap way out killed himself without
actually dying, took a blunt lie and gouged out his mind
And I can't accept that he's found the answers to those questions
I'll be trying to solve until I die
And I can't accept that he's somehow "better off" because
the answers aren't that simple
we always assumed he wasn't either and I want his beautiful
religion to burn because Steve's dead...
I wasn't offered the chance to say goodbye.


ChosenByPasta
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The accused fucking rip.

The accused fucking rip. That's all I have to say...


MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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ChosenByPasta wrote:The

ChosenByPasta wrote:
The accused fucking rip. That's all I have to say...

yay...It's my happy music Laughing out loud


DrFear
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hmm. i always got the

hmm. i always got the impression that born against were catholics. i don't remember why though.


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DrFear wrote:hmm. i always

DrFear wrote:
hmm. i always got the impression that born against were catholics. i don't remember why though.

Nah, they are anti-religion to the core as well as anti-government. I feel silly if you were joking because the name pretty much says it all. Puzzled Eye-wink


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averyv wrote:even some emo.

averyv wrote:
even some emo. i thought everybody had guilty pleasure songs.

Good...there are others out there that can't help but like emo every once and a while. I thought I was alone. They all look and sound like Greenday anyway. I mostly listen to progressive rock, classic rock or psychedelic rock.


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MarthaSplatterhead wrote:

MarthaSplatterhead wrote:
I feel silly if you were joking because the name pretty much says it all. Puzzled Eye-wink

no no, don't feel silly, no joke....my thinking was that 'born agains' are typically of a protestant persuasion, but i admit i'm not fully educated on all the differences between the two.
i think if they were anti-religion and anti-government, i would have been all about them....but i remember rejecting them for something....maybe it's the straight-edge thing.....i dunno...i thought i had more to go on than that.....
ha ha ha ha ha Puzzled

Fear is the mindkiller.