This is kind of urgent...

dowry
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This is kind of urgent...

Hey guys, I really need some help right now.

Before I get to my issue, I need to give you a little bit of background information. I am 15 years old, and proud to be an atheist. However, I am growing up in a really orthodox Southern Baptist Christian family. Obviously they know that I am an atheist, and this usually can cause some disagreements about certain things/issues. I have taught myself how to avoid disturbances as much as possible, but sometimes, particularly this time, I haven't been able to avoid it, and I also can't deal with it on my own.

I'll try to make this story as short as possible. Yesterday me and my dad (who happens to be the most religious person in my family) were out at my little sister's cheerleading competition. It's not uncommon at these things for there to be quite a few homosexual men around, which I don't have any problem with, but my dad does. We were sitting next to a particular boy who happened to be noticably gay, and this immediatly caused my dad to be extremely disgusted and disturbed. I tried to get my dad to ignore it as much as possible, but when the competition was over and we had left, he felt the need to vent about how much it had bothered him. I tried to ignore him but when it had gone on for a little while I was getting kind of fed up and told him that I don't think that he should be so prejudiced against a certain group of people, because it's not like they were harming him. I just told him that I think that they should have the right to be wherever they want to be and that I didn't think it was fair for him to keep going on and on about how much he hated these people. This really made him go off. He started to yell at me about how twisted my worldview was that I was ok with this perverse abomination. He compared homosexuals to child molesters and bank robbers, and continued to throw personal accusations at me about having no morals, supporting perverse psychopaths, etc. etc.. To shorten the length of this story, I won't go into detail about all the things that led up to what he said next. He told me that he couldn't believe how far I had strayed from the truth and from who he thought I was. He told me that he wants to have me commited for 6 months to try to straighten me out, because obviously he was failing to do so. He said that I made him want to throw up and cry bitter tears, and that if I said one more thing, even a slip of something that he didn't like, he swore he would disown me. He told me that he has put up with my sick and twisted ideas for too long, and that he was looking forward to me saying something else so that he could prove to me that he was serious about disowning me and sending me away. He said that he was going to make sure that I never had any more personal freedoms while I lived in his house, including getting my driver's license and going to college. He swore to me that he wanted to disown me. This was all in the car on the way home.

When we get home, he wants to talk me some more, and tells me that ever since I told him that I was an atheist, he has regretted everyday of being my dad and bringing me into this world. In his eyes, I am an the biggest disappointment of his life, and he can't believe that I even call myself his daughter. This went on for about an hour.

The reason I am telling you guys this is because I don't know what to do. Nothing like this has ever happened to me, and I never imagined that my own dad would feel such strong hatred towards me. It's not like I am legal or in any position to move out on my own; I'm only 15. I can't drive yet, I have no money. I'm really very lost and confused about where to go from here.

I need some advice. Please, anything would be so greatly appreciated. I'm counting on you guys.

Thanks,
Lisa

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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That's pretty rough,

That's pretty rough, Lisa.

I was raised Southern Baptist as well.  However, I didn't deconvert and become an atheist until I was 30.  I really bought into it all pretty hard.

It really depends on your personal opinion of what to do.

If I had been in your situation when I was 15 I probably would have lied and said I believed.  Then, after I got off on my own, I'd live the way I wanted to live.

This is just a really difficult situation.  Have you talked to your mother?  What does she think about all this?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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This story sounds like mine

This story sounds like mine and there is no easy way out of this. My mom have disowned me. Not only did I thought homosexuality to be ok but I turned out being myself a lesbian, that was the end of the world for her.

If I were you I would just lay low for a while since you say that you can't leave and live your own life yet. Avoid saying these kind of things to your dad since you will not get anything good out of him but only a nuclear holocaust.

And as watcher said, what does your mom think about it ? My dad was actually very supportive of me and that helped me greatly to deal with the situation, although I don't see my mom at all now, since I'm the Devil.

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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dowry
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Hey thanks for

Hey thanks for replying.

 I haven't talked to my mom yet. But my parents are married, and she is religious as well. Also, my mom tends to almost always side with my dad, especially on issues like this. Somehow I don't think she will be of much assistance to me.

I really don't want to lie to them. But I understand that it might become my only option sometime in the near future. I was just wondering if anyone had any advice that didn't include lying.

Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks it might be in my best interest to move in with someone else, a friend or my boyfriend. I don't want it to come down to that either, but is lying to them a better alternative than running away? In this situation, I honestly don't know how to choose which would be "the better of two evils"...

 But thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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Lisa, for what it's worth,

Lisa, for what it's worth, you have my sympathy. What you're going through is terrible, and it's one of the main reasons we're here -- to end this kind of insanity.

Quote:
It's not like I am legal or in any position to move out on my own; I'm only 15. I can't drive yet, I have no money. I'm really very lost and confused about where to go from here.

Ok, the first thing you need to do is figure out what options you do have. You've just listed what you don't have. I know it's hard, but in a situation like this, problem solving depends on being able to separate yourself from the emotions enough to know what you can do.

What's your distant family like? Do you have any relatives who aren't dipshit crazy like your immediate family? The main thing is that if your dad kicks you out of the house, you need to have a plan for where you can stay, even if it's just for a few days. Do you have sympathetic friends who could put you up?

The second thing you need to do is think about what your dad could really do. Disowning is not something that can just be done on a whim, and frankly, it's not going to have any real effect on you even if he decides to do it. (Which, I'm guessing, he won't.) He's legally responsible for caring for you until you're eighteen. If he refuses, he could be liable for neglect.

Now, if your living situation is so bad that you don't think it's salvagable, there are ways you can become emancipated before you're eighteen. I have no idea what your state laws are, but you can usually find out by doing a google search. You could also contact Child Protective Services and ask them about the laws.

A word of caution, though. Child Protective Services is under a lot of legal obligation. If you tell them that you've been mentally abused, they will be required to investigate, and they may be required to remove you from the home, depending on what they find. At the point where the government gets involved, you may find your options limited.

Speaking of caution, if your dad ever hits you or puts you in a position where you might get hurt (like if he locks you out of the house and you have nowhere to stay) you should go to the authorities. There is no reason to put yourself in harm's way on his account.

Ok. Last thing. In most states, fifteen year olds can hold some jobs. Even if it means taking the bus to work for a year, I suggest that you begin working and saving money right now. This accomplishes two things:

1) When you're 18, you will be able to leave immediately if you want to.

2) Before you're 18, you can minimize contact with your family by simply not being in the house as much.

Lisa, please try to remember that you didn't choose your family. Three years is a long time when you're fifteen, but there's a LOT of time ahead of you. If you're family are asses, you can move away and find good friends who love you for who you are. Try not to fall victim to the whole, "Yeah, but it's my family!" thing. Family is DNA. Outside of that, they're sometimes a real pain in the ass. I've had minimal contact with my family for well over a decade -- mostly because they're Christians who don't accept me as an atheist. The catch? I've been happier in these years than I ever was when I was in close contact with them.

Don't be afraid to do what you need to do for your own well being. Once you do it a couple of times, it gets easier.

 

 

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I would never tell a young

I would never tell a young person to run away from home.  I think most cases of that happening don't turn out to well.  This world is a sick place full of sick people.

I'd personally pull a con job.  I'd start making sure that I could be seen reading the bible around the house, tell daddy that jesus had come into my heart(or some other equally ridiculous thing), and then work hard at school and make really good grades so I could get out on my own and take care of myself.

Your parents are stuck in a perception altering delusion.  They are in a way sick.  They have been lied to most likely their entire lives by christianity.  I think you have to play along with their delusion until you can fully support yourself.

All of this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Quote: Also, I was

Quote:
Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks it might be in my best interest to move in with someone else, a friend or my boyfriend. I don't want it to come down to that either, but is lying to them a better alternative than running away? In this situation, I honestly don't know how to choose which would be "the better of two evils"...

I vote for the friend, not the boyfriend.

Lisa, if you knew me in person, you'd know that I'm about as liberal as it gets when it comes to family, sex, and marriage.  If there's an opposite to prude, it's probably me.  However, there are several good reasons for not moving in with your boyfriend while you're fifteen.

1) You haven't said how old he is.  If he's got his own place, that means he's 18, which means any sex is statutory rape.  You living there would not help the case.

2) If he's under 18, and lives with his parents, that puts his parents in a sticky situation. 

3) Clearly, you've got some tough thinking time ahead of you.  You live in an abusive relationship, and those are difficult to recover from.  Fifteen year olds are lucky if they can figure out how to french kiss properly -- it's not the best age for being codependent.

 

Quote:
I really don't want to lie to them. But I understand that it might become my only option sometime in the near future. I was just wondering if anyone had any advice that didn't include lying.

Lying isn't always bad.  If it comes down to lying versus being miserable, you would do better to lie, I think.  The main thing is that you need to find ways to get yourself out of the situation without putting other people in legal or moral binds.  Try not to make other people lie for you if you can avoid it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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dowry
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Thanks so much for the

Thanks so much for the advice, hambydammit.

 First of all, I really wish I had distant relatives that lived close to me. But I live in Texas, and my closest, non-dipshit-crazy relatives are in Colorado and Missouri. However, my boyfriend said he would be willing to put me up for a while.

Also, my dad is a lawyer. He knows about all the laws in regards to disowning me and he also has sued CPS before. Going to CPS really isn't one of my first choices in things to do, partly because I have two younger siblings which something like that could greatly affect. I don't want my familial problems to become theirs.

However, if he does ever put me in a dangerous situation like you mentioned, I don't think I would have a problem going to the authorities.

I have had a job for a year and half, and I just recently quit. I do have a little bit more than $3000 saved in a savings account, but being only 15, I can't access that money on my own. I doubt that being a runaway and going to the bank pleading to get my money would be very beneficial.

Also, it really does help to know that I have sympathy from someone. Especially where I live (right in the middle of the Bible Belt), it's not easy to find people like I have found here. It's really nice to know that someone has been in a similar position as me before, and also that I can make it through this. It's nice to know that the whole world doesn't view me the way that my parents do.

Thank you guys so much. You have no idea how much this means to me.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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Wow, that's horrible Lisa. I

Wow, that's horrible Lisa. I don't know what to say. I would make one small suggestion, and this has worked for me so good. What you could do is devote yourself to educating yourself. That is how you came to be an atheist I would imagine? Well I've been reading books and educating myself non-stop ever since I started questioning about two years ago. I am now obsessed with learning about things I am not supposed to know. It has empowered me a lot. Has helped me find happiness a lot more and I also know how to talk with people a lot more. Especially arguing with people.
A lot of kids who rebel against our parents at this age turn to drugs, alcohol, and partying. Don't fall victim to it. A true rebellion against your parents, I have learned, is knowing more than them! haha. It is your parents close minded attitudes and beliefs that need to be called into question. If you empower your knowledge you could develop the ability to kindly point out how close minded they are being, and what they are wrong about. 
Maybe you would need to run away after all? Adults are not as open minded as younger kids are, but when I started questioning things as I got older I actually started to inluence the beliefs of my parents! They are now very progressive and just as digusted with religion as I am.
Good luck!

"Every true faith is infallible -- It performs what the believing person hopes to find in it. But it does not offer the least support for the establishing of an objective truth. Here the ways of men divide. If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, have faith. If you want to be a disciple of truth, then search." - Nietzsche


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dowry wrote: I really

dowry wrote:

I really don't want to lie to them. But I understand that it might become my only option sometime in the near future. I was just wondering if anyone had any advice that didn't include lying.

Lisa, considering your educational background, you have probably been taught that lying is outright sinful and that no lies at all is acceptable.

I have to disagree with that. If telling the truth brings upon you emotional abuse that you can't deal with (like it's your case right now) lying by "agreeing" with your father is a self-defense stance that is not objectionable.

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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ooops, I mean't wouldn't

ooops, I mean't wouldn't need to run away*


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Welcome to the hizzle. Wow,

Welcome to the hizzle. Wow, this is another example of the harm done by religion. Your parents sound just as bad as the parents who have their kids sent away because Warren Jeffs said so. Actually worse, because your dad is choosing it rather than just "following orders" - ie being an asshat rather than just listening to an asshat.

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I'm happy to help, Lisa. 

I'm happy to help, Lisa.  Please don't hesitate to ask anytime you need advice.   It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders.  As long as you can separate the emotions from the situation, you'll be fine.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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To hambydammit, I agree

To hambydammit, I agree with you about the boyfriend thing. He is 15 like I am, and you are right when it comes to his parents. I don't want to put them in a bind.

Also, though it isn't really favorable to me, I agree that lying might be the most painless "solution" to the bind I'm in. I don't want to run away. I still have plans to go to college. I need my parents to at least financially support me in order to do so.

 I'm really impressed by everyone's willingness to help me. I love seeing that there are people not as close-minded as the people currently controlling my life. Smiling

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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dowry wrote: Also, it

dowry wrote:

Also, it really does help to know that I have sympathy from someone. Especially where I live (right in the middle of the Bible Belt), it's not easy to find people like I have found here. It's really nice to know that someone has been in a similar position as me before, and also that I can make it through this. It's nice to know that the whole world doesn't view me the way that my parents do.

Thank you guys so much. You have no idea how much this means to me.

You are obviously a very intelligent girl and I have no doubt that you will overcome this hard period of your life.

Just keep in mind that the situation you are in right now will not go on forever and that you will eventually get out of this as a  stronger individual.

In the meantime, hang in there ! Life will pay you back a little later.

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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If you could also talk to a

If you could also talk to a counselor at your school (I guess you have them to in the sates) it could help you (as long as it's not a jesus freak counselor of course Eye-wink ).

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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dowry, where in Texas do you

dowry, where in Texas do you live?  I live in Texas.


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Greetings Ms. Dowry It was

Greetings Ms. Dowry

It was painful to read your plight.

1. I'd stay home until you are capable of taking care of yourself. At 18 with a diploma you can join the military. I'd stay away from the Marines and the Army but I don't like the idea of getting shot at. I'd stay as far from the idea of moving in with a boyfriend as it could lead to less options for YOU. The reason I mention the military is because it is a good place to go from high school to young adulthood. It's not a rose garden but it really does give you the ability to leave a bad place and learn how to grow your own damn rose garden.

2. Concerning the family. With your strong deisre to be truthful I'd suggest being getting creative with the truth. Figure out how to give answers that are vague enough to allow you to take your answer as the truth and Daddy to think he hears what he wants to hear. I wish I had some examples right now but I'm rushed to get this done but I have to leave. Think of how a car salesman might answer a question. Just enough of an answer to allow you to fill in the answer which might not be exactly the answer they would choose if pinned down. Be seen reading the bible. Eventually you will be asked what your doing and you might answer you are "searching for the Truth". They may think you are getting with their program, you might think you are searching for the truth...

3. It may be weird to think of people you only know through the internet as friends but weird or not it's a modern day reality. You have people here that want to help you. Want to ensure you are not hurt. Want you to be safe and healthy. I'd consider some friends even if you never met them in real life.

Peace,

Lenny

 

 

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush


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My question to you Dowry,

My question to you Dowry, is... Do you love your parents? If you do, i unfortunately have no means of helping you.

But, if you hate and loathe them.... im chok full of sinister legal tactics and cruel machinations

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul wrote: My

The Doomed Soul wrote:

My question to you Dowry, is... Do you love your parents? If you do, i unfortunately have no means of helping you.

But, if you hate and loathe them.... im chok full of sinister legal tactics and cruel machinations

Sometimes I wonder about you, Doomed Soul.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:The Doomed

Watcher wrote:
The Doomed Soul wrote:

My question to you Dowry, is... Do you love your parents? If you do, i unfortunately have no means of helping you.

But, if you hate and loathe them.... im chok full of sinister legal tactics and cruel machinations

Sometimes I wonder about you, Doomed Soul.

 

Whats to wonder? im very forth right about who i am and what im like >.>

 

at least i gave her a choice, instead of filling her head with bad thoughts initially...

oooh... thats why you were wondering!  i get it now... and your right, thats not like me >.>

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The Doomed Soul wrote: My

The Doomed Soul wrote:

My question to you Dowry, is... Do you love your parents? If you do, i unfortunately have no means of helping you.

But, if you hate and loathe them.... im chok full of sinister legal tactics and cruel machinations

I don't think this is an important question The Doomed Soul !

Whether she likes them or not, getting even right now won't do any good but will only jam her against the wall even harder.

Since I'm completely against the army, war etc... I wouldn't recommend that either, but on the other hand, if your parents are willing to pay for your education, going to a college that you have to sleep at (I dunno how it's called in English) could be a good way to get away from the torture that your parents are making you suffer. 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Girl Dancing In Orbit

Girl Dancing In Orbit wrote:
The Doomed Soul wrote:

My question to you Dowry, is... Do you love your parents? If you do, i unfortunately have no means of helping you.

But, if you hate and loathe them.... im chok full of sinister legal tactics and cruel machinations

I don't think this is an important question The Doomed Soul !

Whether she likes them or not, getting even right now won't do any good but will only jam her against the wall even harder.

Since I'm completely against the army, war etc... I wouldn't recommend that either, but on the other hand, if your parents are willing to pay for your education, going to a college that you have to sleep at (I dunno how it's called in English) could be a good way to get away from the torture that your parents are making you suffer. 

 

I resent your implication that my thoughts only pretain to "Getting Even" >.>

 

and for the record, there are LOTS of completely safe non-combat military jobs (except with the marines, nothing around the marines is safe)

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Girl Dancing In Orbit

Girl Dancing In Orbit wrote:

Since I'm completely against the army, war etc... I wouldn't recommend that either, but on the other hand, if your parents are willing to pay for your education, going to a college that you have to sleep at (I dunno how it's called in English) could be a good way to get away from the torture that your parents are making you suffer. 

I've been led to believe that you are French, correct?

If I was french I would be against war too, they always seem to lose.  lol

Sorry!  Just a joke.  I like you Girl Dancing.  I think you are cool.  Don't be ticked at me ok?

hehe  I'm a bastard sometimes.  But I'm just teasing you.

She could be a corpsman in the navy.  That way she would only be helping people who are hurt.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

 

I resent your implication that my thoughts only pretain to "Getting Even" >.>

 

Then what were they ?

 

The Doomed Soul wrote:

and for the record, there are LOTS of completely safe non-combat military jobs (except with the marines, nothing around the marines is safe)

I know... But still, and this is only my personal views of things... 

But anything that  as anything to do with the army makes me want to puke, that's all. 

(Lisa if you wanna go into the army, I respect that.)

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Watcher wrote:

Watcher wrote:

I've been led to believe that you are French, correct?

If I was french I would be against war too, they always seem to lose. lol

Sorry! Just a joke. I like you Girl Dancing. I think you are cool. Don't be ticked at me ok?

hehe I'm a bastard sometimes. But I'm just teasing you.

She could be a corpsman in the navy. That way she would only be helping people who are hurt.

Never hesitate to bitch slap me, I don't get mad that easily (ok I take that back : I'm always mad).... You never need to apologize with me !

And for the record, I'm not French.... I'm North American : Québécoise.

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com


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Girl Dancing In Orbit

Girl Dancing In Orbit wrote:

Then what were they ?

 "They" are not fit for these forums

 

Girl Dancing In Orbit wrote:

I know... But still, and this is only my personal views of things... 

But anything that  as anything to do with the army makes me want to puke, that's all. 

(Lisa if you wanna go into the army, I respect that.)

<-- Corporal

 

Would you like a puke bag now? Laughing

What Would Kharn Do?


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I was thinking specifically

I was thinking specifically of the Coast Guard. Most people don't think of them when considering the military but they are officially included. They do research, life saving, law enforcement work, all kinds of stuff that doesn't contribute to the war machine.

If the war machine aspect doesn't bother you as much but you want to stay safe then the Air Force is a great option, next up would be the Navy. I'd stay far away from the Army and Marines. They do important work but it's beyond dangerous during the best of times but during a war. Hell no.

 

R/

Lenny 

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush


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The Doomed Soul wrote: <--

The Doomed Soul wrote:

<-- Corporal

Would you like a puke bag now? Laughing

Sir yes Sir !

Eye-wink 


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I think your mother would

I think your mother would probably not be very happy with your father if she found out he said these things to you. She might put on a united front in front of you, but he will face some pretty serious ramifications in private. Long story short, you can probably get your father in big shit by telling on him.

Of course, if your father is the same cruel, domineering, abusive, out-of-control bastard with your mother as he is with you, he may have her cowed to the extent that she can't do anything. In which case your only option is to clam up and survive until you can get out of the house at the earliest opportunity. Do wait until you are 18 to do so, otherwise your options for working and living are too limited. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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Subdi Visions wrote: I was

Subdi Visions wrote:

I was thinking specifically of the Coast Guard. Most people don't think of them when considering the military but they are officially included. They do research, life saving, law enforcement work, all kinds of stuff that doesn't contribute to the war machine.

Most branches of the military have soldiers who are only doing support or salvage/rescue operations.  However, there are a lot of Coast Guard overseas fighting.  I met them when I was in the Navy in the Persian Gulf.

I've seen Coast Guard personnel take down hostile ships that the Marines couldn't take down even after multiple attempts.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Girl Dancing In Orbit

Girl Dancing In Orbit wrote:

And for the record, I'm not French.... I'm North American : Québécoise.

Whew!  Good.  I got to make fun of France and also not tick anyone off.  I've been to France, and I will tell you I have no desire to return.  I don't care for the French attitude.

Canadians are great though.  Actually there are two nationalities of people that I have met several members of and have yet to find one I didn't like.

Australians and Canadians.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote: Canadians

Watcher wrote:

Canadians are great though.  Actually there are two nationalities of people that I have met several members of and have yet to find one I didn't like.

Australians and Canadians.

<--- Canadian, care to reconsider? ^_^

 

I know, i know... im the black sheep of the Canadian population

What Would Kharn Do?


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Watcher wrote: Whew!

Watcher wrote:

Whew! Good. I got to make fun of France and also not tick anyone off. I've been to France, and I will tell you I have no desire to return. I don't care for the French attitude.

Canadians are great though. Actually there are two nationalities of people that I have met several members of and have yet to find one I didn't like.

Australians and Canadians.

Even though French is my native language, feel free to make fun of France all you want while I'm around. 

We say here that they speak with the mouth shaped like a chicken's asshole because of their accent. Eye-wink

OK enough !!! We are getting  completely out of topic here. Let's reserve this thread for Lisa (dowry).

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Actually I'm getting

Actually I'm getting worried about dowry. 

It's been an hour and a half since she last posted.

I'm kind of fretting over what's happening with her.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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I had a similar

I had a similar experience.

 Just sit tight and do whatever they say until college, then live your life without their meddling interference.

For a long time I thought I could fight the cruel dictatorship of the mind that is my parent's insistence on religion, but then I realized that my resistance did not have to be verbal, or outright, but silent. Your parents may be foolish, and may want to make you conform, and it is a terrible thing, but honestly all you must do is remain silent unless they ask you direct questions, then remain honest. Otherwise, all the arguing in the world isn't going to make your parents accept you. That's what religion does to people. It makes them value invisible sky-men over the livelyhood of their children. 


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Atheist's clubs in schools.

After reading dowry's story, I'm curious about the status of Atheist/freethinkers clubs in schools? Is it a legal problem or just a problem bully biogot christians preventing these groups from starting?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Let's not panic yet.

[Edited in] This was to Watcher's last comment. 

Let's not panic yet.

Maybe that unlike me, she actually as a life and is not 24/7 in front of a computer.

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Really quite shocked this

Really quite shocked this sort of things happens, it really is child abuse.

Well I not a great expert of much, but my advice is 'do whatever it takes to survive' . You are the product of 4 billion years of evolution, your brain is the most complex object in the known universe, use it and grow


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Hey guys. Thanks for

Hey guys. Thanks for worrying Watcher, but I'm ok for now. Smiling

Also, to Watcher- I live a little bit north of Dallas. What part of Texas do you live in?

To everyone else- it's amazing to me to see the kind of responses that I am recieving on this board. When I posted this topic earlier today I never would have imagined that I would get so much help from so many people. It really does mean a lot.

 On another note... I kind of like the idea of going into a military-related field. While I also like the reasons behind this, and it's somewhat entertaining to think about actually doing this, I'm kind of thinking more about going the direction of art school or something when I graduate. I want to be a graphic designer or an animator when I graduate, and I'm not sure going into the military would really benefit me in this field. However, I really like the advice, and it's greatly appreciated.

 Again, you guys cannot imagine how happy I was when I logged back onto the computer tonight and found out there were 38 comments on my topic. It's nice that there are some awesome people out there who actually care. Smiling

 Thanks so much guys!!!

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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dowry wrote: Thanks so

dowry wrote:
Thanks so much guys!!!

You are more than welcome !

Feel free to let all steam escape from your hearth here.

xXx 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com


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I'm sorry that you have to

I'm sorry that you have to deal with such an awful situation Lisa, but the other posters are right that things will be so much easier once you are able to move out of the house, especially if you end up going to college to study art. You can find so many different people who aren't closed-minded like your parents.

To avoid triggering your farther's irrational anger without lying, I would suggest that you go with theotherguy's advice, but also remember that you don't have to answer a question if you think it will cause problems. If he asks you about something that you're sure won't conflict with his brainwashed sense of ethics, go ahead and answer, and be polite. If he asks you about something that would piss him off, say very politely, "I'm sorry, but I'm afraid to answer you." Be as non-confrontational with him as possible without letting him pressure you into changing your internal beliefs. But, I agree with the other posters that in that situation lying might be your safest bet if you can do it convincingly.

Also, if you want to go to college, I would recommend spending some serious time trying to get as many scholarships as possible because you can't count on your parents to help cover the costs, and the smaller your student loan debt the easier it is to pay off. Your school's counselor's office should be able to help get you started with that, just apply for as many as possible; a lot of scholarships just go to waste because nobody applies for them.

Also realize that the reason your dad said all of those things to you is not that he doesn't love you, but that he's incapable of reconsiling the cognitive dissonance between his religious beliefs with his feelings as your father. If you notice, he's blaming himself for what he believes is his failure to get you to believe what he believes is necessary for you to not go to hell, and he's trying to get you to not bring the issue to his attention because he can't handle his feelings of guilt, helplessness, anger and fear. So, I think if you can understand what he's going through, forgive him for it, and let him know that you still love him, the two of you might even be able to get along... and he might eventually admit to himself that atheists aren't bad people and don't deserve to go to hell. Though, I would not recommend pointing out to him why he's feeling what he's feeling, as he might take that as being confrontational. And, he probably knows it subconsciously anyway; he just will likely need a very long time to let go of those feelings before he'll be able to consciously accept that knowledge and find the courage to let go of the beliefs that are causing him so much pain.

By the way, welcome to the forums. I hope we'll see you here again, but you might want to keep a 2nd browser window open so you can close the 1st browser if you hear your dad coming towards your room.


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dowry wrote:Hey guys.

dowry wrote:

Hey guys. Thanks for worrying Watcher, but I'm ok for now. Smiling

Also, to Watcher- I live a little bit north of Dallas. What part of Texas do you live in?

We are roughly 3-4 hours apart.  I am the father of three girls so I feel quite sympathetic to your situation.  I would never be so harsh with my girls.

Keep us updated, ok?  I worry about you. 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher is now your new

Watcher is now your new daddy.  Problem solved.


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You have my sympathy but

You have my sympathy but more importantly you have my respect. So many raised in a family like yours would never deeply question the faith they were indoctrinated with. Of the few who do most will be too scared by what logic leads to and make weak rationalisations that allow them to keep their beliefs. Even of those who question faith and accept reality most will refuse to rock the boat by admitting their lack of faith.

By the age of 15 you've questioned faith, followed the questioning to it's logical conclusion and admitted to your family that you don't accept their beliefs. That takes intelligence, courage and integrity. I was lucky enough to be raised by an atheist and a rather apathetic catholic. I never had to escape faith and never had to justify my rejection of it. I doubt I would have had what it takes.

Compared to most people you're a superhero. Make sure you user your powers for good and not evil. "With great power comes great responsibility."

As to your current crisis. I agree with theotherguy. Just don't rub your atheism in your father's face. Don't fake belief. It'll cost you in self respect and unless you're a spectacular actor your father may see though the act and be even more upset by it, he may even take it as an insult (parody).

From your story it sounds like your father is quite prepared to bury his head in the sand. He wants to ignore your atheism. I think he'd be happy (well happy enough to not kick you out) if you just kept it to yourself. I don't think he would ask questions that he doesn't want to hear the answer to. You may need to make a few sacrifices like going to church with the family.

I don't know how colleges work in America (Aussie here) but I get the impression that there's a lot of opportunity to live in a dorm at the college while studying. If that is the case and it is an option for you definitely apply for colleges far enough away from home that you need to live in the dorm. That will give you so much more personal freedom, and less time when you need to hide your lack of belief.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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stuntgibbon wrote: Watcher

stuntgibbon wrote:
Watcher is now your new daddy.  Problem solved.

Yay! That makes me feel better already. Smiling

 Again, thanks for the replies and the concern. I will definitely keep you guys updated. It's nice to have some intelligent friends.

Also, I do really hope your right, ParanoidAgnostic. I'm not sure I want my dad to ask questions that he knows will back me into a corner. A few days ago I would have said that I was sure he wouldn't do that, but now I can't be so certain. Hopefully he will take an answer that is vague enough to not get me into too much trouble though. However, he is a lawyer, and he happens to love arguing. A lot.

I love the advice everyone has been giving me. I'm so glad I found some people that could help me through this rationally. Smiling

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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So...dowry.  You ok

So...dowry.  You ok today?  Everything turn out with your father in a calmer mood?


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Hey. Ya my dad seems to

Hey. Ya my dad seems to have simmered down. He did come back and tell me that he hopes that I know that he was serious about everything he said and that he isn't exaggerating. But even though he didn't exactly apologize or take it back, I think that I'm learning how to deal with it already. I've been surprising myself about how good I am getting at being able to hold my tongue. Smiling

 Also, though it helps a lot of have support here, my friends at school and my boyfriend have been amazing support to me as well. So basically, I'm doing good so far. No complaints here.

 Smiling

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan


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Good, good, good.  Glad to

Good, good, good.  Glad to hear it.

It's good to hear from you at all.

Let us know if you need anything, ok?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Hey there, Lisa. Sorry to

Hey there, Lisa. Sorry to come into this topic so late, but also kind of glad, because hearing that things are cooling down is a relief.

 

I'm from Indiana (aka Christiana) and my dad is extremely close-minded about the same kinds of things. He thinks that the world is coming to an end because people are letting homosexual get married instead of tying them up and beating the hetero back into them.

I find that when it comes to world views and religious topics, my dad absolutely loves to talk my ear off, and I absolutely hate to listen. I never agree with anything that he says, and I can't offer my own opinons without having him get all pissy and then ruining my day.

When he's talking, I mostly just tune him out. I try to pick up the main ideas in case there is a pop quiz, and also so that everyone once in a while I can ask a question based on the two words I heard, thus creating the illusion that I'm listening.

(Ex: blah blah blha blah..church.. blah blah.. choir... blah blah...songs... blah blah... kids... blah blah...

"Oh yeah? That sounds fun. What kinds of songs did they sing?&quotEye-wink

but mostly while he's talking about Jesus, my brain is working more along the lines of "Man... how much longer until we get to Taco Bell?!"

He pretty much knows I'm an atheist now, though I never exactly told him, but I remember when I used to slip up sometimes and I would have to do a bit of dodging. Ex:

"Whatcha reading?"

"A chapter for biology about evolution."

"Ah. You believe in evolution?"

"Yeah."
"Really...?"

"....yeah... I mean... it's science and everything..."

"Yeah, but it's not biblical though."
"Science can't help that, I guess."

"...so what are you saying? You don't believe in god?"
"Uh.. no. I'm not saying that."

 

Of course I didn't believe in god, but I wasn't lying to him because, really, I wasn't saying it. I was just thinking it. It's one of those clever dishonest truths. =)

I got older and moved out, though, so these days I will challenge him a little more. I don't call his entire belief structure into question, but I at least try to Socratically lead him to a point where he will reconsider what he's saying and maybe come up with something less crazy.

And the cool thing is that now one of my brothers is an atheist and my other brother is a fence-sitter (an agnostic atheist who doesn't realize he's an agnostic atheist yet). I spend a lot of time reading at the RRS, plus I love watching/reading people like Dawkins and Dennett and David Mills, and YouTube debunkers like Nick Gisburne and ExtantDodo.

So my brothers come to me with atheist questions sometimes and it's fun when I know the answer and get to help them out.

 

My biggest piece of advice would be to find people whose views are atheistic or who are not opposed to atheistic views, and then make friends with them. Look at how much better you feel from just discussing something like this with online strangers. You know what they say about people who bottle up their problems. THEY EXPLODE.

And if RRS helps, then by all means, hang around. =D

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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I know, I'm rather late to

I know, I'm rather late to this. Just like Archeopteryx I grew up in Indian^H^H Christiana.
I would offer my advice, but what I would have to say is has already been said. Keep your head down, and try to keep yourself independent as possible.

I do have a comment though:

Can't you feel that brotherly, Christian love?