Brainwashed: definitely. Morons: just like anyone else. 

Unfortunately, I also grew up in a religious family.  Even after I moved out, I had the same feeling...what if I'm wrong???  What parents do is absolutely brainwashing and that doesn't just go away with a snap of the fingers.  I think for me it was just time and thinking everything over.  Eventually the fear eased up, until what little fear remained was gone. 

I'm right there with you, Dave. The residual "born-again" xtian in me still lurks around my subconscious, occasionally poking it's head out to provoke the following conversation:

INT - HCG'S GROGGY, EARLY MORNING HEAD

VOICE IN HEAD: "What if you are wrong?"

ME: "What do you mean Jessica Alba? We just had the most spectacular sex ever...your words hon. How could that be wrong?"

VOICE IN HEAD: "Fornication fantasies about Jessica Alba? You, sir, will BURN IN HELL!"

ME: "Oh, it's you again. Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't believe in 'hell' anymore, isn't it?"

IRRATIONAL ME (aka Voice In Head): "But what if you're WRONG!!"

RATIONAL ME: "Sorry pal, gonna need some rock-solid evidence first. Extraordinary claims requi..."

IRRATIONAL ME: "No, no, don't start quoting Sagan again...all you need is Faith to know the Truth!"

RATIONAL ME: "Why are you speaking to me in italics AND capitalizing the words "faith" and "truth"? Oh, yeah, xtians love to hijack the dictionary, history books, politics, and high school science curriculums...why not hijack font attributes?"

IRRATIONAL ME: (starts quoting scripture)

RATIONAL ME: "WTF?!? You interrupted my sex dream with Jessica for this shit?!? Get the fuck out of my head!"

HCG'S WIFE: "Who the HELL is 'Jessica'?"

:^)

dave805 - What you're thinking is perfectly normal.  If it makes you feel any better I never had any religious upbringing and there were still occasions when I questioned whether something was wrong with me because I just couldn't believe in god. 

God belief is everywhere - to go against the norm sometimes feels weird, even if it is the right thing to do.

There's a big difference between consiously considering that you might be wrong and unwillingly doubting what you hold to be true. "Damaged", "Brainwashed", and "Traumatized" might be exteme words to describe this, but I think everyone can agree that this is bullshit that no one should have to carry around.

There is a god, don't question it.

There is no god, don't question it.

And that would be the whole difference. Having no dogma means to me, that you can question anything anytime, including your own beliefs and values. This is for me the normal state of having no dogma. And that's my point.

Okay, maybe I should introduce myself then. I'm from East-Germany and I am a former citizen of the GDR. In the corner where I live, the percentage of atheists is around 80 to 90%. And I was raised without any religious guidance by my parents. I did not attend communion or anything like that, and I never went to church. So in short, I experienced the complete opposite of Dave. But even I have sometimes unwilling doubts about my behavior. So, by having a brief look at my "anamnesis". Do I suffer from a trauma? I don't think so.

I admit, that my background in psychology is far from being extensiv and I assume that your level of education in this particular case is superior to mine. However, I do have some thoughts about it and an argument from authority falls to short for me. So I have some questions and I hope you can give me some answers.

The first question has actually nothing to do with the topic and is just pure curiosity. Do you favour Behaviorism or Cognitivism?

My second question is, do you think that Daves post is enough to give a qualified diagnosis. I'm not regarding the difficulties of a tele diagnosis, I'm refering to the amount of information that can be gained from the first post.

My third question is, could it be that you are projecting your own experiences (regarding religion) onto Dave?

And my fourth and last question is: What qualifies Daves described behavior as a symptom of a trauma?

No, I don't feel like you are coming down on me. I really appreciate it, that we have an open and civilized discussion about it. It wasn't my intent to upset somebody. All I did was giving my point of view, because:

Of course, I could be terribly wrong and Dave suffers terribly. I don't denie that there is mental stress. But it seems pretty normal to me for the given situation. I mean, there is no doubt that there is a conflict, but that alone doesn't mean anything. We all have conflicts, minor and major ones. So unless Dave doesn't write that this whole thing prevents him from sleeping or something like that, I can't see a problem. I mean, he describes having thoughts.

Well, in America, behaviorism is often misunderstood. In Skinner's later works, I think he did a pretty good job of incorporating biology, behavior, and culture into a unified theory. However, it seems many people think behaviorism eliminates possibility of true choice. As with most systems of describing complex behaviors, behaviorism can only apply as far as it goes. In other words, it's a great way to speak quantitatively about behavior, but it doesn't really fly as a philosophical position.

To be honest, I'm not sure that cognitivism and behaviorism are necessarily at odds. If anything, I would say that in some ways, cognitivism is simply a macro approach to behaviorism. In other words, it's fine to talk about stimuli and responses, but when speaking to another human being, we must accept the perception that mental states exist, and that we are subject to them.

The other thing to bear in mind is that cognitivism is relatively new, and like all new approaches, it remains to be seen how it will hold up to decades of intense scrutiny and testing.

I don't know if that completely answers your question. Here's the bottom line for me. The human mind/body is an incredibly complex system, and virtually any reductionist approach to explaining it will be limited by the method of reduction. We must act as if free will exists even if it doesn't. We must function as if mental states and cognition determine behaviors, even if we can construct a quantifying system in which they don't.

No. However, since I am intimately familiar with American culture, there are some things that are warning signs -- things that usually hold true. Also, realize that this was not the first of Dave's posts that I've read.

I don't pretend to do internet diagnosis. First, I'm not a licensed psychologist, and second, I think any kind of psych evaluation needs to be in person. One can hide much online. That's why I went to extra lengths to say that I don't know for sure. Even so, as percentages go, knowing what I know, I think my opinion is fairly well educated.

Yes. It could be. However, I'd like you to keep in mind my analogy to rape victims. I'm not trying to compare the severity or type of mental trauma, but the comparison is still valid. If you have not experienced the kind of mental distress we're talking about, it's much more difficult to recognize it when you see it in others.

One of the things I've marvelled at is how readily rape victims can spot other rape victims. They recognize the signs because they are so familiar with them in their own behavior. There's truth to the old adage: "Takes one to know one."

The level of mental distress experienced when thinking about the question. As I said earlier, most un-traumatized, mature adults, when told about fairy tale style stories, dismiss them without a thought. When something as ludicrous as hell causes real mental stress, it's an indicator of what I call "indoctrination trauma."

I don't mean to imply a degree of suffering, only the real possibility of some level of suffering.

If I am wrong, the most likely cause would be that I read more into Dave's post than was actually there. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what degree of distress this question causes him.

Thanks for your questions. I hope I've answered them adequately.

 [edit:  I see that Dave has borne out my internet diagnosis while I was typing.  Score one for internet diagnosis.]

If I am wrong, the most likely cause would be that I read more into Dave's post than was actually there. Hopefully he'll chime in and tell us exactly what degree of distress this question causes him.

At present it causes little to mild amounts of stress.. (Mainly when im on hear reading the BS theists post is when it causes the most )

In the past though the question caused major issues .. As stated in my prev post .

Edit..

Reading it now  

Wow Hambydammit 

That is a verry good artical you wrote up.

Specificaly the sections on Morality and a few other places.. 

"What does the question really mean?

Many people will find the previous two versions of our question to be lacking. There's something else hidden in the question. It's bigger than just the question of the nature of reality. What we really want to know is this: “If life is just the product of blind evolution and physical processes, what is the purpose of it all?” This comes closer to the question that's really on our minds, doesn't it? We want to know if there's room for hope in life. Is there something to look forward to, or is life really just an exercise in respiration, mastication, and procreation?"

 1. This particuler question is something i have struggled with for years.  Because if you reject the god bs.. What else is there? You summed it up better then i could. At the lowest point of my life i bought into the notion that their was not point at all in life and it was a total waste of time. 

2.  Yes... And with the absense of Hope comes dispair and fear.

You certainly have a better grasp with words then i do. Thank you for linking that for me to read. Definitly gave me much more to think on.  

 The funny thing about all this is i probibly never would have had these issues if i was like most people.. IE accepting everything i see and hear and never questioning... Or really thinking about things.  

Yea sounds about right mate.. Do you have a good relationship with your mother ?

I personaly have a strained relationship with my mother. Mainly because of feelings of anger towords her. (IE .. How could she lie to me like this etc..)  Needless to say i do love her very much. Yet at the same time she represents at times everything i have grown to hate about religion. 

It is tough trying to work through anger fear etc to get to the core issues. But hopefully i will not alow this to rule my life anymore.

A lot of this thread has opend quite a few raw wounds i have been nursing in my life.. Things i would normaly never say or talk openly about to others. Thankfully everyone here has been understanding and provided valuable inpute.

On a side note.. Another post on the forums asked us our motivation for being here and why we promote athieisim.

For me.. Honestly .. It is about anger.. True anger. Anger over how hypocritical religion is and those who follow it are . Anger about the Fear they indocternate into their children etc.. etc.. etc.. It makes me madder then hell.. 

I make comments that are at times not based on fact.. IE i state that people who believe in god are morons fools etc.. And yet while this may be true on this particuler issue , I am without a doubt that these people are much smarter then i ever will be on other things.

That being said it is hard to controll ones anger (Sense of injustice) when dealing with people who refuse to think about what they hold to be unquestionable.

Nothing .. NOTHING is unquestionable.. That my be just my opinion but let me leave you with this.

If i were to ask you if the sky was blue 99.9999% of you would say yes. But really.. Is they sky blue? To us it is.. But to the collor blind person it isn't. 

I think what i am trying to say is our reality is based uppon our perceptions. And our perceptions are based on our senses. Our senses are notoriusly crude and inacurate.

Mehh.. hope i made sense here..  

Kazua.. This is why i am so angry.. This is what is happening EVERYWHERE religion is thrust onto unwilling children and people.

I know.. And completely understand your confusion. How Can people do this to each other.. That is basically what it boils down to.

And the answer is ......... control

That is all religioun is .. Controlling others, Telling them what they can do, What they can't do, and if nessisary killing them if they fail to follow. (Plenty of historical facts to show religion is deadlyer then any other plague in the history of mankind) 

The sad part about it is.. The core message is a good one. They way it has/is preached and spread has corrupted it so much that the core message is lost in the fear and intolerance.

A good way to put it is the Core message is the bait at the end of the hook. The hook is the fear, Hatred, intolerance that religion represents.  

Kazuya - I can't answer on behalf of those who are sharing their experiences but I have heard of similar experiences from many others.  I have friends that do not attend church and are not affiliated in any way with a religious organization but still get upset about going to hell for some possible wrong-doing (example - talking very badly about a co-worker).  In this particular instance my friend was quite distraught about saying something ill in a fit of anger and concerned about her well-being in the after life.  And I'm not talking about children here.  These are adults.  

As I said earlier, I was not raised in a religious household.  My parents were agnostic if not atheist.  Yet I do remember going through a period of time where I was quite fretful about my inability to believe in god.   Everyone else did so I thought there was something wrong with me.

I don't know if you're from the US or not but religion is pretty prevalent and it's everywhere.  Even those of us who have not been effected by it closely have still been touched.  If we hadn't, perhaps we wouldn't be on this forum.  

Dave, one of the most insidious beliefs that religion instills is the (absolutely false) notion that religion adds anything to human existence.  

What religion actually does is more akin to something the pharmaceutical industry is notorious for -- they create a problem, and then sell you the solution.

Without the notion of a higher power or afterlife, the question of "purpose" in life takes on a wholly different meaning.  It simply doesn't occur to us to ask if there is something more!  By default, for better or worse, we treat each day as if it may be our last, and we regard each decision as if our future depends on it.  There are no mulligans, and there's no such thing as absolution. 

Since you mentioned suicide, it's worth noting that it's not a "Mortal Sin," in the religious sense.  Clearly, the only consequence is non-existence -- for the deceased.  What is bad about suicide is what it can do to loved ones, and what it potentially deprives you of.  I don't encourage anyone to do it, particularly since there's no way to change your mind afterward.  However, the atheist has to look at it in terms of only those consequences that we know to exist.  There are certainly times when it's the better of bad options.  During the 9/11 attacks, I clearly remember seeing the people jumping off the building rather than burning to death.  Bad choice, but suicide was a better option.  Like I said in my essay, there's no higher authority to answer to -- only yourself and those who know you and will be affected by your decisions.

Here's where religion lies the worst.  I recall a quote from one of Richard Dawkins' books where a colleague asked him how he had hope as an atheist.  He replied that it was easy.  He hoped that he would have a great lunch in the early afternoon.

It sounds flippant, but that really is all there is to it.  When we say there is no hope, we're engaging in all-or-nothing thinking.  It's true, there is no hope for anything past death.  There is no hope for miracles or divine intervention or absolution of past wrongs.  But that's not all there is.  We have hope that we can positively influence those around us and that their lives will be better.  We have hope that we will meet new people who will become as close to us as those we have lost.  We have hope that people will remember us fondly when we are gone.  We have hope that we will live in a way that makes others glad to be our friends.

There is much to hope for.

Yeah, it's pretty bad here in the States, Kazuya.  The majority of americans believe in christianity here and teach their children that non-believers in christ will burn for an eternity in hell.

One of my coworkers is a young-earth creationist.

When Kansas decided to allow Intelligent Design to be taught in science class I was really angry.  I went to the place I worked at at the time and was griping about it to 5 of my coworkers.

They disagreed with me and said that ID should be taught in science class.

I was blown away.

We've grown quite insane over here.

Kazuya,

If America was like what you have described, there would be no need for us.  Unfortunately, it is much, much worse.  Let me share a couple of quotes with you from our religious leaders:

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."
--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
-- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93

I thought of this YouTube video when I read that:

So far you will appreciate this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

the name is "kissing hank's ass" and if you like to read their conversation I'll post it below:

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:   "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me:   "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

Me:   "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me:   "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:   "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me:   "And has He given you a million dollars?"

Me:   "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

Me:   "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me:   "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me:   "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me:   "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me:   "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me:   "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Me:   "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me:   "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me:   "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the Desk of Karl

1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

Me:   "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me:   "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me:   "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me:   "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me:   "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me:   "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me:   "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me:   "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me:   "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me:   "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me:   "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me:   "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me:   "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me:   "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me:   "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me:   "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

I am a former Christian ( over 25 years ) and am now a person who could be classified as a soft atheist. Therefore I reserve judgment on the matter until I am supplied with enough evidence to justify a belief in God.

Old habits die hard and I too liken my experience with "orthodox" Christianity to being influenced by a cult. There is still an emotional component of my former faith that rears it's ugly head from time to time. I find it quite disturbing.

As a person who has unfortunately lost the genetic lottory I live close to death all the time. My user name is quite autobiographical and self-extermination is simply my future. I accept that. I look to my demise as a welcome release, nevertheless I don't know what lies beyond mortal existsnce...if anything at all, hence my fear.

My rational mind tells me that the Judeo / Christian God is no more real than the pagan gods of history but my mind is still pulled back into it's old habits. The one thing that I find comforting is that I conveniently only seem to worry about the God whose influence I was smothered with. Isn't it a funny coincidence that I do not seem to worry about being condemned by Allah or Kali or any other gods of modern-day religions ?

So yes, even as an atheist I have doubts and I'm happy to share them on this forum if it helps any others to adjust to a life without faith.

Not really, I'm a heterosexual male so holding hands with another guy just isn't my thing.  Thanks anyway.