Alcoholics Anonymous is a Theistic Religion
Offline AA is clearly a theistic religion and the ONLY religion in the U.S. that the government can force and Individual to participate in and support - If I had the resources I would love to push a lawsuit challenging the legality of forcing an individual to go to AA meetings under the first amendment.
Evidence that Alcoholics Anonymous is a Theistic religion:
- Reference to a Higher Power
- Holy Book (the Big Book)
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/
- Prayer is a required part of the program
- it teaches that humans are powerless over their actions
- Tax exempt status
I define alcoholic as a member of said religion who believes that he is "powerless" over the consumption of alcohol
I know all this from personal experience - my father (a surgeon) was convicted of DUI (not excusing this it is a crime and dangerous) part of his sentence was mandatory attendance of AA meetings, and in order to keep his license to practice medicine he was required to enroll in residential rehab for 3 months at a cost of over $20,000 a month(not to mention the lost income) - now don't get me wrong all of this is fine and my father was a problem drinker and he has maintained his sobriety for 10 years since the arrest (without becoming an Alcoholic - he maintains sobriety with reason not faith) - but this is clearly a case of state enforced religion. I was required to attend a family weekend where the cult leaders use family relationships to torture the problem drinker with his failures as a husband and father . All the while offering salvation through the program, it was clearly fire and brimstone evangelism of the CSE variety with a few code words like "higher power" in place of "Christ" and "sobriety" in place of "saved" the statistics I have seen (AA quit providing statistics in the 90's when it became obvious) bear out that the odds of maintaining sobriety after 3 years are about 50/50 regardless of participation in "the program".
Technically faith is just the opposite of paranoia - the irrational belief that someone is out to help you ~ The Vandingo
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I wouldn't say AA is a religion. Obviously they use a lot of Christian themes in their programs since I believe the program was developed by quakers or something like that. I'm not entirely positive.
I am also under the impression that there are secular recovery programs available. I had a friend who was supposed to go to NA (same guidelines as AA) but found a secular program instead. There was a thread a loooong time ago that contained a list. I can't find it though and I don't recall what the names of the programs are.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
There are many valid recovery programs (such as RR, rational recovery) and I in no way mean to downplay the dangers of addiction. The danger is trusting a faith based approach to solve a medical problem. I am speaking specificly of Alcoholics Anonymous and its spawn like NA and CA which are the dominant programs and the ones pushed by the government, many AA groups will make token gestures at being secular with nonsense excuses like, "your higher power can be anything - it can be a rock" which is just plain silly. Courts forcing addicts into AA is no different than if they were to force violent chriminals to attend church services.
Technically faith is just the opposite of paranoia - the irrational belief that someone is out to help you ~ The Vandingo
According to "Bullshit!" AA only works 5% of the time. That's the same rate as cold turkey. You could always just not drink to begin with. I know that a lot of my relatives have had significant drinking problems. I also know that I have a rather short fuse. And shit, I can say some pretty abusive stuff as a sober person. Also, I like what James Randi said about sobreity. He said that he likes to be in control of his mind. I like that, too. And not to sound like a quote machine, but Frank Zappa said that such substances were "just an excuse to be an asshole." That's another thing I can do while sober.
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I agree with most of your post, and despise AA/NA programs, but the actual "success" rate is closer to 12%.
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I stand corrected
"All probabilities are really 50/50. Either a thing will happen or it won't. "
Technically faith is just the opposite of paranoia - the irrational belief that someone is out to help you ~ The Vandingo
Actually, there are ( or at one time were) secular AA programs. During the early 70's I was in one in the Phillipines and found another stateside in San Diego. Although I agree the success rates are low it did help me decide to stay sober, but I was ready for that anyway. Once I was back stateside and away from the government's insanity it was easy (for me, at least).
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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AA is a religious organization and this cannot be denied. Anything that has the words God and Higher power in their literature is a religion. What also makes it a religion, is that you will be kicked out of meetings if you don't agree with the philosophical underpinnings of AA. That being said, this is what AA has become. The original foudners did not plan on AA becoming what it has become today, which is the larger problem. Originally AA was meant to be a support group and the only qualification for membership was wanting to stop drinking. The founders did not make claims that AA is the only way and stated that this method worked for us and it may work for you. Today, the vast majority of the drug treatment industry is based on AA and has distorted it's original teachings. Today people are kicked out of treatment for using and forced to take on the label of "ADDICT." Today some programs require people to stop using before being admitted and then told they have a disease they can't control. WTF???
Actually the exact effectiveness of AA is unknown due to the voluntary nature of the program. You cannot randomly assign people to participate in AA. This opens the door to an entire host of confounding variables. How about the people who stop going to AA? What about AA helps these people, or is it something common to all treatments?? Studies have shown that more participation in AA leads to better outcomes. However, this can be said of any treatment for any problem. Of course more motivation, more action, and more follow through is going to be more beneificial. The problem starts when people are required to attend a certain amount of meetings or complete treatment programs that focus on 12-step philosohpy in order to keep their jobs, get custody of their children, stay out of jail, or keep a license. It is state sponsored religion.
Also, Cold turkey is actually more effective than 12%. Most people stop using any drug at harmful levels without formal treatment.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
From what I've heard about AA, it really varies from state to state and depends on the chapter and meeting leaders. I have two friends in AA and there are various meetings they each attend. They've told me there are meetings strictly for men only or women only, gays only, etc as well as mixed meetings. My one friend prefers to a meeting where the reference a higher power, but not necessarily god.
That being said, I tend to think of AA as more of a cult than anything else. They basically told my friends to throw out their addresses books and delete all their non-recovery friends out of their phones. Now when we see them they're pretty fucking snooty to us. Oh, that's because AA considers you an alcoholic if you even have ONE drink, apparently.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Exactly. That is another problem with AA measurment. You never know exactly what people are experiencing in their AA groups, so you cannot speculate as to if AA works or what about AA is helpful for people. What your friends have gone through is another example of how AA has changed and distorted from it's original focus. It is like a cult, but religions are cults so their is no difference. You may also get more liberal AA groups. Remember there are multiple self-help groups that do not have a focus on working the 12-steps. You have also hit on some other problems with AA. Most AA groups focus on days clean and consider one sip of a drink and relapse and the person starts at zero. Talk about setting a person up to fail.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
I find this whole thread fascinating, I've never attended AA myself and it's interesting to see what people do say about AA.
Anyway I was checking out the Australian AA website because of the mention of religion. It specifically states on there website that it is nondenominational and also states that they do not offer religious services.
Yet in the twelve steps it mentions God on several occassions, it is noted however that an AA Member does not have to follow all twelve steps. But wait there's more! In the twelve traditions it also mentions God.
AA in Australia isn't funded by any organization except by itself and it's members, and contributions from members are limited per year.
So it's not like religion is forced upon individuals within the meetings, but I can also see how deceptive the whole practise is. It's the individual that does all the work, God has nothing at all to do with it.
: Freedom - The opportunity to have responsibility.
: Liberty is about protecting the right of others to disagree with you.
AA as a stand alone self-help group is not necessarily a bad thing. IF somebody finds that this works for them and they are not damaging others why not encourage them to continue?? When they fund themselves there is not real huge problem.
The larger problem in our country is that the majority of the treatment system is based on AA and you are required to go to AA if you are court or employee mandated to tx. This is not somebody volunteering to go to a self-help group. This is mandated participation in a religious organization. It is non-denominational, but is still religious. Anything with a higher power, even if you choose the higher power has religious overtones.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
As I may have mentioned earlier, I attened a few NA meetings here in VA. I mostly did it to see what they were like. I do not consider myself having a drug problem. I have a disability and multiple medical problems for which I take narcotic pain medications (by prescription). Anyway, I heard many people in my situation end up hooked so I went to check it out - but enough of my life story.
They made us pray in the beginning and end of every session. I asked the 'leader' about this repeated God reference and told her I was an atheist. I was told by her and one other member that they consider God a "higher power" and I was welcome to substitute the words "higher power" in as all I had to do was accept that something higher than myself was helping me along... be it a friend or even a pencil.
I thought this was a bunch of bull. Personally I would think a good program would empower people to make choices themselves, but that's me. Anyway - just wanted to let you guys know what they said when asked about the 'god' thing.
This is pretty funny - if it isnt a relegion how can it be nondenominational ?
From Wiki:
A denomination typically refers to an established religious subgroup under a larger heading.
"we have both kinds of music country and western!"
The pencil comment mirrors my experience - in what twisted world view is a rock or a pencil a higher power - might as well be the spagetti monster - basically they are playing linguistic games with people who are clever enough to be suspicious of anything with the word god in it.
Further rehab or 12 stepping in general has become a "stealth" religion for anyone who wants to avoid responsibility for their actions. When a celebrity like Isiah Washington wants to deny his homophobia its, "off to rehab" - Ted Haggard gets caught with a male prostititute - rehab .
If you accept the disease model of addiction you must seek a medical solution. Imagine going to see a doctor about any other sickness and being told , "have you considered prayer?" I'd seek second opinion and have the quack up on charges.
"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." ~Douglas Adams
Technically faith is just the opposite of paranoia - the irrational belief that someone is out to help you ~ The Vandingo
I agree with you 100%. I never thought about AA being a religion... more appropriately being a "church" but since it does have its own scripture, it makes more sense to call it a religion, and it most certainly fits most of the criteria of a religion, especially when it comes to telling people how they need to live their lives and the implementation of guilt as a means of control.
By the way, there is research out there that shows AA has no higher a success rate than not going to AA
AA's 12 steps:
Seems pretty religious to me...
I haven't attended a meeting in years. The twelve steps, how they're interpreted, is really between you and your sponser. I think most of the effectiveness of the program comes from the support network that is created within the meetings. If drinking is your only hobby, and all your friends drink, quitting becomes very lonely.
There is the serenity prayer before and after each meeting, I treated it like the pledge, and omitted the parts I didn't want to say. In all, the importance placed on the religious aspect depends on the group, and the individual. The most important thing is ALWAYS, getting your life back under control.
My sponser was very religious. He never once tried to convert me or push it down my throat. We had a running joke, if I do the work to change my life, he would handle the praying. I never liked the chips, I stuck with one day at a time...I have 2089 days sober.
The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.
This is great stuff. As usual, these threads inspire me to create more pages on FreeThoughtPedia:
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/12_Steps
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/12_step_programs_are_religion
Feel free to add content to these pages. I'm sniping stuff and setting up a framework. The last link is currently not a completed page yet, but I think it would make a great FT argument that AA is indeed a religion.
Congratulations. That's hard work and you've done an excellent job!
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It sounds like you have had a very good experience in AA. Since it seems to have helped you overcome what many consider to be a deadly disease, that's nothing but a good thing.
However, AA was created as a religious recruitment tool. In many places the governmental support of churches who host AA meetings were brought into question because it simultaneously claimed to be a community outreach program while being an exclusive club of people who were god fearing or vowed to try and become god fearing. As mentioned before, the 12 steps are riddled with reference to god which they coin as "higher power". In order to progress beyond the second step you must first admit that you are completely powerless and then promptly put your success into the hands of god or "higher power".
The fact that some people have tried to mold this religious recruitment tool into something non-religous is moot. Even if they are successful, the truth remains about the nature of the program itself.
The belief that the boogy man can cure alcoholism is as relevant as him curing cancer or my morning mood swings.
I was in AA and the Palmer Drug Abuse Program for a number of years and it was quite clear that in order to function through the 12 steps it was mandatory to find a connection with the elusive "higher power". AA is nothing but a recruitment tool and calling it anything else, IMO, is just naive.
I've known of AA indirectly because the people I've known most of my life are hard drinkers. Some have gone to AA and I'm not going to fault someone for taking action if they feel they need to. However, the thing I've always hated is that AA pretty much tells them to say goodbye to everyone they used to know. I didn't learn until much later that there was a god element, but that makes perfect sense. What I've found is a very extreme, b&w mindest that they try and instill.
Now I can't remember where I first heard it, but it's been mentioned that AA is why Bush is so absolute in his thinking. All that "you're either with us or against us" crap, the unwillingness to compromise, to listen to anyone, to only trust those in his little circle, and of course all the god crap. Despite what Kuo wrote in his book, I think Georgey does believe in the faith based crap. It's just Cheney and Rove who called the religious leaders fucking nutjobs.
I certainly would like to see some sort of legal challenge to court ordered AA. There has to be a secular option made available.
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Hi,
I am a veteran and several years ago after surgery was placed on medication and over 6 weeks got 3 DUI..... I dont drink or do drugs but i behaved irresponsibly and drove....did jail time , fines community service and now i have to enroll it 18 month dui school or the judge will give me more jail time...my question is after paying not only 1500 for the 18 month school they are try to make me attend 26 AA meetings....all the dui schools are the same....i want nothing to do with mindless idiots religious fanatics......what advice can you help me with....yes i have to bite the bullet and pay for the dui 1500 school but no way am i going to those meetings....
thanks,
renee
sorry for the spelling and grammer..
Hi, from a fellow 'renee'
If the AA classes are part of your judgement, I would think you have to attend the meetings? I have known only a handful of people that have had actually experience with AA and the majority are religious in some way. The only atheist I know spoke about being asked to pick what their higher power is ( or something like that) ~ maybe someone else can jump in here and give you some ideas. You may just have to go through the motions and do your 26 meetings...
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
One of my friends is a long time AA member who has years of experience in the group. He is a believer but still manipulative as alcoholics are in many cases. We had a friend who got a DUI of .10 a few years ago who got popped at a DUI checkpoint. Normally the person didn't drink and drive but did this time at a family gathering. Anyway, the friend didn't want to go to the 12 meetings ordered as part of the probation. My friend the AA guy pointed out that AA is anonymous. This means that only a first name was signed on the form, at least in Florida . Do you get the solution?
Or on the other hand you can go to the meetings and say nothing at all and get your forms signed by the leader. If you do go to meetings be prepared for stories that may have you convinced you really have a drug or drinking problem. These meetings are quite intense and emotional. I know about this because my mother was a director at a drug and alcohol treatment center at a state hospital for years. She worked in alcohol and drug treatment centers for over 30 years. She wanted her kids to know what drugs and alcohol abuse were all about so we went to AA meetings with her when she gave guest lectures. She wasn't an alcoholic by the way.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I have heard of atheist alternatives, but I can't remember them.
I would write a letter to the judge telling him/her point blank that being forced to attend will increase my drinking to get over religious stupidity, and that an alternative must be available as per the constitution. Otherwise I'll see him/her again soon.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I go to AA and yeah there is god talk. They have the word god sprinkled around along with higher power and they even conclude the meetings with the Lord's Prayer.
*shrugs* If it is a cult it's a pretty shitty one for a cult.
There are a lot of really good people at the meetings here that will bend over backward to help you out, they don't ask you about how you think or resolve the "higher power" thing in your own head...at least not around the meetings I attend. Heck, I've told several of them that I'm atheist and they haven't acted negatively to me at all. I wouldn't admit that I was an atheist among any other groups here in the bible belt.
Basically its a support group of people that can't handle their drinking when they do drink and have let it get the better of them in the past. Most of them are very unjudgemental and very friendly.
Plus after being a hard core drinker for a while...well you get rather antisocial before you finally get to the point of seeking help for your drinking habits. Going to meetings is a way to start interacting with other people in your afterwork hours and to have them not be drinkers to boot.
If they pass me any koolaid though I'm leaving...
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
AA is useless, they talk about success stories but any group environment (a few people getting ogether and talking about their problem is just as good) helps, not the program, the entire idea of "not being able to control your drinking", and waiting for a "higher power" to heal you is stupid. When someone is trying to quit drinking im pretty bloody sure that forcing them to believe that they are helpless and need to be helped by someone else is just retarded.
Alcoholic "i need to cut down of my drinking, i can do it"
AA "no you cant you cant do anything you need to wait for a HP to help you"
Watch this south park episode it really makes a good point
http://www.xepisodes.com/southpark/episodes/914/Bloody-Mary.html
SOS is a secular recovery group for all addictions. It's an acronym for Secular Organizations for Sobriety (also known as Save Our Selves).
Science H. Logic! BLASPHEMERS! They are to bow down to the Lord of Science and no other!
They are poisoning your mind, pretending to be nice!
They are the enemy! They are only friendly to weaken your resolve, instilling doubt in your pure atheistic mind! They should all be put to calculating differential equations, untill they recognize Science as the only possible guide for humanity!
Ooohh, they will boil you like a living frog - there is less chance it will jump out of the water, if the heat increases only gradually. They strike at your weakness! You must stop going immediately and remember to say 10 Hail Niels Bohr's and pray to MIT and their largest investor - the US Military for salvation of your electrical impulses in the brain before going to bed.
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
I agree with what you're saying. By making people confess allegiance to a higher power and admit helplessness I think you're breeding people to be continually victimized by addiction. I am certainly not minimzing addiction in any way shape or form but the first step should be taking responsibility for your actions and realising that you are indeed the one who has to get control over your situation. Instilling helplessness as the first step seems counter productive and counterintuitive.
"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
Homer Simpson