Can Order come from Chaos?
I'd like to do a thought experiment with everyone who would participate. This is just simple imagination.
Here is the basis of the this experiment.
Imagine you have twenty-six small pieces of paper with one letter from the English alphabet on each side of each piece. Now throw these imaginary pieces into the air and wait for them to land. See how many English words you can find in the jumble. If you find none, gather them up and throw them again. Eventually you will find a word and if this process is repeated enough times you will find, inevitably, every word in the English language.
Now let us remove the English alphabet from the equation and say the letters are just symbols with no other attribute then their shape. Then the only meanings we can infer from the jumble will be proper names such as Robert, Moscow or Excalibur. No matter how many times the paper is cast we can never infer a word from the mess.
Next we can remove the letters from the paper pieces and throw them again. Now the only meanings we can infer are shapes of objects we've seen in the world, the paper mess has become a pictograph.
Finally, let's remove the final aspect of order from this system, us. Without intelligence or order what can the chaotic paper mess ever become?
Please, weigh in. Give your two cents or more if you like.
Throwing pieces of paper into what???
You're putting something into an existing system causing it to be considered an open one.
The answer is that there would be no 'UP'. I would not expect the pieces of paper to 'fall'. And finally, if they did it would not be in any order because they would not have anything else affecting them.
There is no violation of the laws of thermodynamics. There is only people who choose to ignore the natural elements in the systems to be analyzed.
In the analogy of throwing pieces of paper into the air, you make the assumption that there is air and gravity and a surface for the paper to land upon.
So let's go back and use the rest of the system and analyze why it would be highly improbable for someone to cause the pieces of paper to fall into specific words.
Even if your example would work, it would only function under controlled conditions which can only be natural now. But we don't really know the conditions in the past. For example, the sun was not always there. It is reasonable to assume that at some point in time the sun didn't exhist.
His argument was against evolution. So in the context of his arguments, the sun was always there.curiousjorg wrote:
1) presence of a specific environment
The laws of thermodnyamics are iron, and work under any enivornment.
2) presence of a specific catalyst (in this case, the sun)
No specific needed. Just a source of free energy. This concept is intrisicatelly linked to entropy. I urge you to study basic biomolecular kinetics.
3) presence and application of a specific law of nature.
The laws of thermodynamics are iron. Nothing can contradict them. I cannot make head nor tail of your statement. Thermodynamics is uniform throughout the universe.
Wow that was quick!
I agree with you that the law of thermodynamics is constant throughout the universe, throughout space, but not necessarily throughout time. Think about it. If you use your formula to explain the formation of order on earth, then it would be natural to use that same formula to explain order on the sun, the moon, the stars and the entire universe!
What i'm saying is that there is a beginning for everything. Let's try to go back, before the formation of the earth, before the other planets were formed, before the sun, before the milky way. Before everything.
They say that everything began with the big bang.
First there was absolutely nothing. Not a single molecule, atom, electron, or neuron. Nothing. Possibly not even the laws of the known universe exhisted because if everything has a beginning, the same principle should apply to the exhisting laws of science. (i'm just speculating at this point since i wasn't there taking notes when everything in the universe started)
You see, from my point of view, in trying to explain order coming from chaos, one would eventually have to explain where the elements from these come from. In other words, to explain how order comes from chaos, one would eventually have to explain where something (or in this case, everything) came from nothing.
And i'm not at this point aware of any formula that can make something out of nothing.
I hope that your not offended by my reasoning. I'm just airing what i think and wish to know your opinion on such matters. That way, i can learn as much as i can and enrich myself mentally.
I'm really grateful for your spending time to reply to my queries, and am specially grateful for not using deregatory language or the sort. Its been a while since i've taken this much time and effort in theorizing and am quite enjoying this exchange.
My hope is to learn from this site and use what i've learned in conversing with like minded individuals.