If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

Roisin Dubh
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If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

Man dies after Phoenix 'exorcism'

July 29, 2007

PHOENIX -- Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday.

The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.

The relative who called police said an exorcism had also been attempted Thursday.

''The purpose was to release demons from this very young child,'' said Sgt. Joel Tranter.

Officers arrived at the house Saturday and entered when they heard screaming coming from a bedroom, Tranter said.

A bed had been pushed up against the door; the officers pushed it open a few inches and saw Marquez choking his bloodied granddaughter, who was crying in pain and gasping, Tranter said.

A bloody, naked 19-year-old woman who police later determined to be Marquez's daughter and the girl's mother was in the room, chanting ''something that was religious in nature,'' Tranter said.

The officers forced open the door enough for one to enter, leading to a struggle in which an officer used a stun gun on Marquez, Tranter said.

After the initial stun had no visible effect, another officer squeezed into the room and stunned him. The girl was freed and passed through the door to the relative, Tranter said.

Marquez was placed in handcuffs after a struggle with officers and initially appeared normal, but then stopped breathing, Tranter said. He could not be revived and was pronounced dead at a hospital.

The cause of death was not immediately known, and autopsy results probably will not be available for several weeks, Tranter said.

Tranter declined to identify Marquez's daughter and granddaughter but said they lived in the house with Marquez.

The mother was not arrested, but police will consider criminal charges, Tranter said.

There was no phone listing at Ronald Marquez's address.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


ParanoidAgnostic
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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ParaniodAgnostic wrote:

forces external to religion have started to keep them in check.

I'd like to call bullshit on that. The change was from within.

How? there is no mechanism for change in religion, infact there's  built in resistence to it. 

 

Quote:

You pointed them out on mine, why can't I point them out on yours? As I said before Homophia cannot exist without bigotry. Religion can. It is rather similar to your objections to my analogies.

 

No, your critisism of my analogies was not analogous to my critisism of your analogy. I thought that my analogy to your critisism of my analogies made that clear.

Your analogies were flawed because you were compareing A and B to C and D but the relationship between A and B was fundamentally different to the relationship between C and D. Your percieved flaw in mine deals with a specific attribute of one of the concepts, not a fundamentally different relationship between concepts.

There are differences in the qualities of things used in any analogy. otherwise it would not be an analogy, you'd be comapring A and B to A and B and the statement would serve no purpose.

Your analogies simply did not work because you were dealing with a completely different relationship. Mine would be invalid based on your critisism if the specific quality that was different actually was important to the relationship discussed.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
What?

If a person believes things because it feels good to them or uses faith then education isn't enough to change their mind. What would I'm not too sure of.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you are suggesting the the fundies hide behind the moderates, I disagree. The reason should be obvious. Anything can be taken to the extreme.

Sort of. If a person lives in a world were large number of people use faith for a belief then they can get away with using it. The results my be a bit different for the moderate and the fundy, but the base is the same.

Quote:
Who died and made you Emperor?

No one. I simply can't get behind the idea of keeping theism.

Quote:
You have no idea what I'm saying do you?

If you used similar arguments I don't think it turned out so well.

Quote:
Many of my Theists friends questioned their beliefs. They're still Theists. When I first started university I was an atheist. I questioned that.

You might want to start a thread on what made you change your mind.


Cpt_pineapple
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ParanoidAgnostic

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ParaniodAgnostic wrote:

forces external to religion have started to keep them in check.

I'd like to call bullshit on that. The change was from within.

How? there is no mechanism for change in religion, infact there's built in resistence to it.

 

That must be why the changed so much. No more Christian Crusades, etc...

 

The change must come from within.  They much change and adapt, as politicians must adapt if they want to keep their place in government. Early days, Christianity was influenced by government. In the bible days, all Empires were brutal and bloody regardless of their religion. Now we have become more civilized, and the brutality stopped.

 

Quote:

Quote:

You pointed them out on mine, why can't I point them out on yours? As I said before Homophia cannot exist without bigotry. Religion can. It is rather similar to your objections to my analogies.

 

No, your critisism of my analogies was not analogous to my critisism of your analogy. I thought that my analogy to your critisism of my analogies made that clear.

Your analogies were flawed because you were compareing A and B to C and D but the relationship between A and B was fundamentally different to the relationship between C and D. Your percieved flaw in mine deals with a specific attribute of one of the concepts, not a fundamentally different relationship between concepts.

There are differences in the qualities of things used in any analogy. otherwise it would not be an analogy, you'd be comapring A and B to A and B and the statement would serve no purpose.

Your analogies simply did not work because you were dealing with a completely different relationship. Mine would be invalid based on your critisism if the specific quality that was different actually was important to the relationship discussed.

 


 Theism is only irrational to the point of believing God exists. We all hold some form of irrational thoughts. Homophobia is also irrational, but it requires the preaching of hate. Religion does not.