If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

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If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

Man dies after Phoenix 'exorcism'

July 29, 2007

PHOENIX -- Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday.

The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.

The relative who called police said an exorcism had also been attempted Thursday.

''The purpose was to release demons from this very young child,'' said Sgt. Joel Tranter.

Officers arrived at the house Saturday and entered when they heard screaming coming from a bedroom, Tranter said.

A bed had been pushed up against the door; the officers pushed it open a few inches and saw Marquez choking his bloodied granddaughter, who was crying in pain and gasping, Tranter said.

A bloody, naked 19-year-old woman who police later determined to be Marquez's daughter and the girl's mother was in the room, chanting ''something that was religious in nature,'' Tranter said.

The officers forced open the door enough for one to enter, leading to a struggle in which an officer used a stun gun on Marquez, Tranter said.

After the initial stun had no visible effect, another officer squeezed into the room and stunned him. The girl was freed and passed through the door to the relative, Tranter said.

Marquez was placed in handcuffs after a struggle with officers and initially appeared normal, but then stopped breathing, Tranter said. He could not be revived and was pronounced dead at a hospital.

The cause of death was not immediately known, and autopsy results probably will not be available for several weeks, Tranter said.

Tranter declined to identify Marquez's daughter and granddaughter but said they lived in the house with Marquez.

The mother was not arrested, but police will consider criminal charges, Tranter said.

There was no phone listing at Ronald Marquez's address.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


Cpt_pineapple
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Actually this was probably a

Actually this was probably a mental health issue.


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Yes, a mental health issue

Yes, a mental health issue - but if there's no religion, it doesn't manifest itself in the form of 'demons' and 'sin' and the need for an 'exorcism' on a child.

Chuck Fristianity. 

"Like Fingerpainting 101, gimme no credit for having class; one thumb on the pulse of the nation, one thumb in your girlfriend's ass; written on, written off, some calling me a joke, I don't think that I'm a sellout but I do enjoy Coke."

-BHG


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Family_Guy wrote: Yes, a

Family_Guy wrote:

Yes, a mental health issue - but if there's no religion, it doesn't manifest itself in the form of 'demons' and 'sin' and the need for an 'exorcism' on a child.

Chuck Fristianity.

 

And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Actually this was probably a mental health issue.
Ya think?

Perhaps if they weren't ones to attribute such things to "demons", they would have gotten the psychiatric care that was obviously needed rather than trying to resolve it with greater insanity.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: And if

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?
I don't see anyone running around touting Captain Kirk as the savior of the world and Star Trek in general as absolute truth. I also don't see them claiming invisible Klingons are real and causing all the problems of the world.

As far as that goes, however, I do think that similar things like Scientology and some of the UFO/conspiracy nuts (which really do believe in things like alien posession) should indeed drop the irrational beliefs. 


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ABx wrote: Cpt_pineapple

ABx wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?
I don't see anyone running around touting Captain Kirk as the savior of the world and Star Trek in general as absolute truth. I also don't see them claiming invisible Klingons are real and causing all the problems of the world.

 

I never said anything about Star Trek

Quote:
 

As far as that goes, however, I do think that similar things like Scientology and some of the UFO/conspiracy nuts (which really do believe in things like alien posession) should indeed drop the irrational beliefs.

 

Once again, this has nothing to do with Theism

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Actually this was probably a mental health issue.

I thought this too when I first read this and wondered if these things would just get attributed to something else if religion did not exist.  ABx is right in saying that psychiatric help may have been provided, but we as a society don't do such a great job of identifying and helping the mentally ill now...I wonder if this would change. 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
I never said anything about Star Trek
I love how most of your responses completely miss the point.

 

Quote:
Once again, this has nothing to do with Theism
You said: "And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?" - those two groups very literally do believe that aliens posess people, and I very much do believe they should be eliminated. Not by eliminating all Sci-Fi, but by addressing the irrational beliefs. There are some detrimental things that happen to people in order to rid them of "thetans".


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ABx wrote: Cpt_pineapple

ABx wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
I never said anything about Star Trek
I love how most of your responses completely miss the point.

 

Quote:
Once again, this has nothing to do with Theism
You said: "And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?" - those two groups very literally do believe that aliens posess people, and I very much do believe they should be eliminated. Not by eliminating all Sci-Fi, but by addressing the irrational beliefs. There are some detrimental things that happen to people in order to rid them of "thetans".

 

Topic title: If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

 Theism: Believe in God.

 

My argument: It would have happened anyway. 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Topic

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Topic title: If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

Theism: Believe in God.

 

My argument: It would have happened anyway.

You gave an analogy, I furthered the analogy to show how falicious it is. In fact it even happens literally, with religion such as Scientology. So yes, even with your analogy, I would say it needs to be eliminated.

The mental illness would have happened, yes. The exorcism that caused the death would not have happened. Without religion, they would have been much more likely to turn to a psychologist, rather than exorcism. 


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ABx wrote: Cpt_pineapple

ABx wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Topic title: If Theism Didn't Exist, This Couldn't Happen

Theism: Believe in God.

 

My argument: It would have happened anyway.

You gave an analogy, I furthered the analogy to show how falicious it is. In fact it even happens literally, with religion such as Scientology. So yes, even with your analogy, I would say it needs to be eliminated.

The mental illness would have happened, yes. The exorcism that caused the death would not have happened. Without religion, they would have been much more likely to turn to a psychologist, rather than exorcism.

 

Mentally ill people don't think rationally. I doubt he would have sought a psychologist.


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If Bart Simpson did not exist . . .

Eww! I actually read the post.  Eww.  People who are crazier sober than when I am drunk. Ewww!  Someone must stop them!  Who can do it?  Go for it, who ever you are!


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Mentally ill people don't think rationally. I doubt he would have sought a psychologist.
People die every year due to exorcisms gone wrong. Without the religious beliefs more of them would have been alive. It's easy for someone that's mentally ill to hide within religion. Someone that says they talk to god is much more likely to be taken at face value than someone who claims to talk to Smurfs hiding under their bed. Without the guise of religion, it's more likely that his family would have recognized the danger of his condition and forced him into treatment. Obvoiusly it's impossible to say what this particular individual would have done under different conditions - you can claim that it would have happened anyway, I can claim that he never would have been crazy in the first place, and both are opinions of equal validity. In the end, however, without religion there would be fewer cases like this. There would be fewer deaths that are the result of a belief that demons exist and posess people, and can be removed by magic.


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    Isn't it funny how

    Isn't it funny how when someone does this, it's mental illness, it can't be due to the person's religious beliefs. Exorcisms aren't a new thing, and it doesn't mean a person is mentally ill, well it kinda does because they believe things from a book, after all didn't jesus take demons out of a person(s) and put them into pigs?

    No this persons religious beliefs had nothing to do with this at all, it was his mental illness, or more likely his ignorance due to his religious beliefs. If you wish to ignore this fact, ignore it, but it was due to his religious beliefs. As for the aliens possessions, i haven't heard any case of a person trying to kill someone due to alien possession.....sorry once, but the person was already diagnosed as a schizoid. However this person in this article wasn't not mentioned as having any previous mental illness. He was however preforming a religious RITUAL of exorcism. Which is described in full with various historical documents of exorcism conducted by priests and other individuals who had believed that an indiviual person/child had become possesed by a demon.

    So why is it automatically mental illness and not religious beliefs?


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latincanuck wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Isn't it funny how when someone does this, it's mental illness, it can't be due to the person's religious beliefs. Exorcisms aren't a new thing, and it doesn't mean a person is mentally ill, well it kinda does because they believe things from a book, after all didn't jesus take demons out of a person(s) and put them into pigs?

No this persons religious beliefs had nothing to do with this at all, it was his mental illness, or more likely his ignorance due to his religious beliefs. If you wish to ignore this fact, ignore it, but it was due to his religious beliefs. As for the aliens possessions, i haven't heard any case of a person trying to kill someone due to alien possession.....sorry once, but the person was already diagnosed as a schizoid. However this person in this article wasn't not mentioned as having any previous mental illness. He was however preforming a religious RITUAL of exorcism. Which is described in full with various historical documents of exorcism conducted by priests and other individuals who had believed that an indiviual person/child had become possesed by a demon.

So why is it automatically mental illness and not religious beliefs?

 

You know, maybe I was a little hastey. Hey, I just realized that gang members listen to rap music. Rap artists are usually former gang memebers themselves and rap about their times in gangs. This rap music causes drive-bys and 'turf-wars'. Perhaps we should get rid of rap music too. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2381387.stm

 

What do you think kills more people? Gangs or exorcisms? 

 


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BBC: Exorcism - The Dangers

BBC: Exorcism - The Dangers

I also saw a documentary on National Geographic about the kind of dangers that the idea of exorcism can have.

The most common danger is psychiatric help being avoided in favor of an exorcism. This means the person isn't getting real help and wasting resources on something as good as a placebo. Fine if thats what the doctor would give them, but not so much if they need meds...

BTW it seems that the doctors can be apart of the problem...

The second danger involves an idea of pain being an effective method in exorcism or a person being restrained in a dangerous way, which is what the first article illustrates.


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    what does gang

    what does gang members and exorsim have do to with each other in this analogy? Why was this exorsim preformed? because the person's religious beliefs led him to believe the child was possessed, and probably due to his religious upbringing, most likely catholic. What do most gang members and most gangsta rap artists have in common? they mainly grow up in low income areas that usually have high crime rates, usually  but not always so. So Cpt your analogy is so off base it isn't funny. Exorsimsm comes from, wait for it...... religious beliefs, that are described in the a religions holy texts, so if the person took the bible as the word of god, and with a religious upbringing, in this case most likely catholic, to which demonic possession is professed to occur (in specific this person was taught about demonic possession, not that all people of religious beliefs are taught or grow up believing in demonic possession) there is a good chance the person was not mentally ill. Just following his religious beliefs. HOWEVER, catholics being the main one to preform exorcims aren't the only ones. Anglicans, Southern Baptists, Mormons, certain sects of hinduism, Voodooism, and of course islam.....oddly enough they all believe in demons, and that demons can possess a persons body. So far there hasn't been a case of a non religious person preforming a exorcism, or believing that someone is possesed by a demon.

    So why couldn't it be this persons religious beliefs again? As well, normally it is the person that is suffering the demonic possession that tends to be the poor bastard that has some form of mental illness (schizophrenic (sp?), depression, bi-polar disorder, multiple personality, etc etc etc)


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latincanuck wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

what does gang members and exorsim have do to with each other in this analogy? Why was this exorsim preformed? because the person's religious beliefs led him to believe the child was possessed, and probably due to his religious upbringing, most likely catholic. What do most gang members and most gangsta rap artists have in common? they mainly grow up in low income areas that usually have high crime rates, usually but not always so. So Cpt your analogy is so off base it isn't funny.

 

 You seem to be missing my point completley. I won't flat out say it, I'll let you put it together.

 

What's to say rap music didn't have anything to do with gang activity? Why attribute it to low income/high crime rate areas? Why are you ignoring the fact they listen to rap music?

 

 

Quote:

Exorsimsm comes from, wait for it...... religious beliefs, that are described in the a religions holy texts, so if the person took the bible as the word of god, and with a religious upbringing, in this case most likely catholic, to which demonic possession is professed to occur (in specific this person was taught about demonic possession, not that all people of religious beliefs are taught or grow up believing in demonic possession) there is a good chance the person was not mentally ill. Just following his religious beliefs. HOWEVER, catholics being the main one to preform exorcims aren't the only ones. Anglicans, Southern Baptists, Mormons, certain sects of hinduism, Voodooism, and of course islam.....oddly enough they all believe in demons, and that demons can possess a persons body. So far there hasn't been a case of a non religious person preforming a exorcism, or believing that someone is possesed by a demon.

 Like I said, if he thought she was possed by aliens would you blame sci-fi?

 

 

Quote:
 

So why couldn't it be this persons religious beliefs again? As well, normally it is the person that is suffering the demonic possession that tends to be the poor bastard that has some form of mental illness (schizophrenic (sp?), depression, bi-polar disorder, multiple personality, etc etc etc)

 

Why couldn't it be mental again? I see no reason it rule out mental and religous causes. 

 

 

 

 


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You seem to be missing my

Quote:

You seem to be missing my point completley. I won't flat out say it, I'll let you put it together.

 

What's to say rap music didn't have anything to do with gang activity? Why attribute it to low income/high crime rate areas? Why are you ignoring the fact they listen to rap music?

Because not all gang member listen to rap, latinos listen to a varity of music, cubans, mexican, columbian gang members all have different musical tastes. Now show me an excorsims that occurred without religious beliefs being involved. I can show you rap music that isn't involved with gangs, but can you do the same in regards to exorcism?

 

Quote:
Like I said, if he thought she was possed by aliens would you blame sci-fi?

Depending on the beliefs that the SCI-FI affictionados are asking us to believe in sure, i might, but I have yet to see any which require an exorcism to be preformed on someone because they have been possesed by aliens, being advocated by anyone in the sci-fi community.

Quote:

Why couldn't it be mental again? I see no reason it rule out mental and religous causes.

I never said it couldn't be, however i said his beliefs in demonic possession do not come from his mental illness, if he had any, but from his religious upbringing, do you wish to ignore the fact that only religious believers believe in demons? can you show me a non religious person that believes in demons? or has preformed an exorcism? I can show you gang members that don't listen to rap (hells Angels, to various neo nazi groups, Latino gangs, Japanese and chinese as well). I have had the opportunity to know 3 schizods in my life time, 2 had religious upbringings, 1 was brought up atheist. All three were violent, only the religious ones were violent to others because they believed other people were possessed by demons (yes i know bringing up mental patients and demonic possession does not go in my favor) however the atheists schoziod only hurt himself, never saw demons, or any form of demonic possession. Could because he didn't believe in any at all. If he had, i might have seen your point.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 


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jce wrote:Cpt_pineapple

jce wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Actually this was probably a mental health issue.

I thought this too when I first read this and wondered if these things would just get attributed to something else if religion did not exist. 

Well , theree is no way to know unless we try ...

Im willing to give it a go ....  how about everyone else here?

lets say ... 10 years as a good test time , see if 10 years without religion makes a difference to the world.

 

Its clear to me that the problem is water , EVERY single excorcism that resulted in a death had SOME connection to water , in all cases , either the killer or the killee had been exposed to water , SOMETIMES BOTH !

 

Lets ban water.

 

 

but seriously, h2o , its a killer.

btw. excorcise religion......


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latincanuck

latincanuck wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

You seem to be missing my point completley. I won't flat out say it, I'll let you put it together.

 

What's to say rap music didn't have anything to do with gang activity? Why attribute it to low income/high crime rate areas? Why are you ignoring the fact they listen to rap music?

Because not all gang member listen to rap, latinos listen to a varity of music, cubans, mexican, columbian gang members all have different musical tastes. Now show me an excorsims that occurred without religious beliefs being involved. I can show you rap music that isn't involved with gangs, but can you do the same in regards to exorcism?

 

 

 That's true that not all gangs listen to rap, but a vast majority of them do espicallly in America/Canada. 

 

Quote:
Quote:

Like I said, if he thought she was possed by aliens would you blame sci-fi?

 

Depending on the beliefs that the SCI-FI affictionados are asking us to believe in sure, i might, but I have yet to see any which require an exorcism to be preformed on someone because they have been possesed by aliens, being advocated by anyone in the sci-fi community.

 

I never said they would have performed an exorcism. You are probably right, about the no exorcism part, however, my point was, what would he have replaced the exorcism with?

 

Quote:
Quote:

 Why couldn't it be mental again? I see no reason it rule out mental and religous causes.

 

  I never said it couldn't be, however i said his beliefs in demonic possession do not come from his mental illness, if he had any, but from his religious upbringing, do you wish to ignore the fact that only religious believers believe in demons? can you show me a non religious person that believes in demons? or has preformed an exorcism? I can show you gang members that don't listen to rap (hells Angels, to various neo nazi groups, Latino gangs, Japanese and chinese as well).

 

 Once again, you are right about exorcisms being exclusivly religious, however what would he have replaced the exorcism with?

 

Quote:

I have had the opportunity to know 3 schizods in my life time, 2 had religious upbringings, 1 was brought up atheist. All three were violent, only the religious ones were violent to others because they believed other people were possessed by demons (yes i know bringing up mental patients and demonic possession does not go in my favor) however the atheists schoziod only hurt himself, never saw demons, or any form of demonic possession. Could because he didn't believe in any at all. If he had, i might have seen your point.

 

I am sure there are religious schoziods that only hurt themselves. My point was if it wasn't demonic possesing, it could be replaced with aliens, or CIA mind control. Assuming he had mental issues, I'm not saying it's 100%, but we can't rule it out.

 

 

 


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Alright lets look at your

Alright lets look at your two comparisons.

1. Rap Music.

You say Rap Music is the same as theism in regards to exorcism.

I don't really like exorcism because because of the reasons I stated above.

Does rap music lead to killing? No, if talking about killing (not the case in all rap) doesn't lead to killing.

2. Sci-fi.

Most people recognize sci-fi by its name, Science Fiction. I'm done.

 

So how does exorcism relate to theism? Well exorcism wouldn't exist without the ideas of supernatural entities and religious practices, what exorcism is.

Death in exorcism is just a case of a bad idea going worse.

Sci-fi is not meant to be taken as truth. Rap is not the idea that could lead to violence nor is it what the idea of violence is built on. Rap itself is simply a way to put forth an idea. So rap would be act of talking if you wanted to apply it to this idea.

Exorcism is built on top of theism/religion so it is fair to say without theism their wouldn't be exorcism.

 

The claim isn't theism caused this, its theism causes exorcism which let it happen.

Without the idea of that demons is causing X a person might get real help. Now with the idea that one can choke the demons out of a person things will just get messy. The demons are probably an illness and exorcism is chicken soup made with sewer water.


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ackbar wrote: jce

ackbar wrote:
jce wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Actually this was probably a mental health issue.

I thought this too when I first read this and wondered if these things would just get attributed to something else if religion did not exist.

Well , theree is no way to know unless we try ...

Im willing to give it a go .... how about everyone else here?

lets say ... 10 years as a good test time , see if 10 years without religion makes a difference to the world.

 

Its clear to me that the problem is water , EVERY single excorcism that resulted in a death had SOME connection to water , in all cases , either the killer or the killee had been exposed to water , SOMETIMES BOTH !

 

Lets ban water.

 

 

but seriously, h2o , its a killer.

btw. excorcise religion......

 

IIRC, Sweden has a low Theist population and is doing pretty well for itself. On the other hand, Canada has a hgh Theist population and is doing pretty well for itself. So it's a case by case basis, but I see no reason why an completly atheist nation can't do well. 


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Voiderest wrote: Alright

Voiderest wrote:

Alright lets look at your two comparisons.

1. Rap Music.

You say Rap Music is the same as theism in regards to exorcism.

 

 y halo thar strawman

 

 

Quote:

I don't really like exorcism because because of the reasons I stated above.

Does rap music lead to killing? No, if talking about killing (not the case in all rap) doesn't lead to killing.

 You missed the point. It's in London by now, should I buy you a ticket? 

 

Quote:
 

2. Sci-fi.

Most people recognize sci-fi by its name, Science Fiction. I'm done.

 

So how does exorcism relate to theism? Well exorcism wouldn't exist without the ideas of supernatural entities and religious practices, what exorcism is.

 So how does exorcism sci-fi  relate to theism aliens? Well exorcism  sci-fi wouldn't exist without the ideas of supernatural  entities aliens  and religious practices, ufos what exorcism sci-fi is.

 

Quote:
 

 

Death in exorcism is just a case of a bad idea going worse.

Sci-fi is not meant to be taken as truth. Rap is not the idea that could lead to violence nor is it what the idea of violence is built on. Rap itself is simply a way to put forth an idea. So rap would be act of talking if you wanted to apply it to this idea.

 Roswell? Is that 'Sc-fi' Many people don't think so.

 

 

Quote:

Exorcism is built on top of theism/religion so it is fair to say without theism their wouldn't be exorcism.

True, but what would he have replaced it with if he thought she was possed by aliens? 

 

Quote:

The claim isn't theism caused this, its theism causes exorcism which let it happen.

Without the idea of that demons is causing X a person might get real help. Now with the idea that one can choke the demons out of a person things will just get messy. The demons are probably an illness and exorcism is chicken soup made with sewer water.

 

Without the idea of that demons aliens is causing X a person might get real help. Now with the idea that one can choke the demons aliens out of a person things will just get messy. The demons aliens are probably an illness and exorcism errrr... alien cleansing(?) is chicken soup made with sewer water.

 


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agree with you on that,

agree with you on that, however chance of him hurting a child for those that you mentioned on very very very low, compared to say, demonic possession.

    Yes there are theists schizoids that hurt themselves, however the amount of schiziods that see demons and that are non religious in any form (by this i mean either upbringing and/or current beliefs) ummm i haven't heard of one yet. Mental people that see demonic possession, 100 percent chance they have a religious belief in tone with one of those religions that i mentioned, and usually catholic/islamic/voodoo . Usualliy but not always.

    However since we are talking about excorcisms and their origins and continued beliefs behind it, it does show a dangerous side of religious beliefs when they are taken by those that take their holy texts as true, which also normally includes their upbrining (which is why religion should never be taught to children, they are far to impressionable) Now not ALL theists believe in demonic possession and not all of them would do an exorcism, however those that do, aren't usually mentally unstable.


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As far as rap goes, the

As far as rap goes, the music is an expression of the gang activity. In your analogy, the gang itself would be the closest equal to religion in the exorcism. To answer the correct analogy: yes, I absolutely believe we should get rid of gangs, and just like religion I would say that one of the best ways to do so would be through education and social structure.

 As far as the sci-fi thing goes, try adressing my previous rebuttal, but actually try addressing the issue rather than picking out a detail that is, by itself, irrelevant and making it seem like the crux of the rebuttal when it's not. To revisit: There ARE people that think aliens posess people and must be exorcised; it's called Scientology and UFO cult. In both cases I agree that they should be eliminated, and through the exact same means. 

It's all irrational thinking, and it all needs to be addressed. We would no more want to address the expressions of the issue than we would try to address religion by eliminating exorcisms alone, or even individual practices. To address the core issue, one must eliminate the irrational thinking behind them.

 

To tell the truth I find this more than a little amusing. After all the centuries of accusations that atheists are evil and cause so much "bad" in the world, one site turns it on it's head and the theists (not just Pineapple) can't let it go. Just remember, Pineapple, that atheism lacks the absolutism as well.

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: y halo

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
y halo thar strawman

...

You missed the point. It's in London by now, should I buy you a ticket?

Did you not compare the two as a response to the response of your sci-fi comparisons? I wasn't saying you were in favor of ending rap, but I thought you were trying to make a point with it. I don't know what other point you could be making if it isn't that 'theism doesn't cause harm' like 'rap doesn't cause harm.' If isn't some how related to this discussion I'm not sure why you would bring it up...

Quote:
So how does exorcism sci-fi relate to theism aliens? Well exorcism sci-fi wouldn't exist without the ideas of supernatural entities aliens and religious practices, ufos what exorcism sci-fi is.

Are trying to say exorcism would exist without theism?

BTW you should be saying, "How does alien abduction relate to sci-fi?" although thats flawed because most people don't believe sci-fi is true.

Quote:
Roswell? Is that 'Sc-fi' Many people don't think so.

So those people are delusional. This doesn't help your case...

Quote:
True, but what would he have replaced it with if he thought she was possed by aliens?

The problem you have is that sci-fi books are normally not written to be taken as truth (scientology and a few other cults are the exception here). Holybooks are.

Quote:
Without the idea of that demons aliens is causing X a person might get real help. Now with the idea that one can choke the demons aliens out of a person things will just get messy. The demons aliens are probably an illness and exorcism errrr... alien cleansing(?) is chicken soup made with sewer water.

You know now that I think about it you do have a good analogy. The only problem is that most people don't believe in sci-fi. I read religious texts like I do sci-fi. The people you talk about believe sci-fi is true but it isn't. The exorcist believes his fairy tales are true, but they aren't. So its sci-fi = body of religious works not theism. Sci-fi isn't a belief, but a collection of stories and ideas. If someone believed in these sci-fi ideas like religious people do their works we'd call them crazy. I guess my problem with your comparison was the misplacement of belief and works. I don't blame books for a persons action, but a can blame their belief for their action. Exorcism is built on the idea that religious works are true. Not in itself theism, but theism is a part of it.

Re-cap:

Sci-fi = Body of religious work

Belief sci-fi is true = theism

alien abduction = exorcism

So the idea of alien abductions is built on the idea that sci-fi is true.


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Yes it does, insted of these

Yes it does, insted of these people getting mental heath care they thought a work of fiction could rid a child of demonds. Many a child in the past and still in some places in the world are abused because the parents mistake natural things like epelepsy and terrets as bing "demond possessed". 

Enimic people were put to death because the church thought they were demond possesed. Religious supperstion gets people killed.

Even today parents will deny their children vacccinations and medical care under the excuse of "freedom of religion" and can and do often abuse their children.

Gay children have a higher rate of depression and suicide because religion teaches their parents to beat their sexuality out of them(maybe not litterally physically) but emotionaly puts a gay person in isolation, and in worse cases they get dissowned by their family.

The difference between Kirk and the Bible is that our laws dont protect people believing in Klingons. Our laws set up a system where it is easy to hide crime and abuse based on religious beliefs.

If someone abused their kid based on Harry Potter that person would not have the same innsolation.

Religion has allowed priests to molest childern and hide behind religious "disclosure" laws allowing other priests to hear about a crime and be immuned from reporting it.

Religion also allows people to scam others out of their money. Benny Hinn makes his living off conning people into believing he can cure them. He is a criminal of the worst kind. 

Superstition killed 3,000 people on 9/11 and superstition got women burned at the stake for being suspected witches.

Our laws dont protect supertstition when it is called "fiction" our laws protect religion which is superstition and makes it easyer to hide crime and make excuses for it. 

 

 

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Exorcism AZ

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/wireStory?id=3426091

 

I think it is sick. Police should have never rushed in and harmed the man. The bible clearly says demons possess people. The bible clearly tells us Satan wants to control our physical thoughts and actions. The bible tells us it is possible to cast out demons before they do any harm. I think the police need to be responsible. They should have went back to the car and got their demon detectors – sickos. OR they should have found out by any other available means if demons were in the room. They should have allowed the man to continue to choke, yell at and beat the bloody child as his other daughter pranced around the room naked (I bet she is hot). Even if the little girl died it would have been for the benefit of everyone in the world. We simply can not allow demons into this world.

 

I am sure some delusional theist will trumpet in… “YHVH can not be judged by the actions of this man”. Screw that, screw you & the same for YHVH. The bible is very clear this can and does happen. The bible is very clear it can be stopped. This man was only doing his job. How dare you judge a man who was simply trying to help his daughter? I think we need to follow his lead there are many sassy 3 year olds. Possibly they are all possessed? Possibly having our eldest strip neekid, having the wife chant in tongues while we beat and bloody the possessed child is the answer. The bible says it is possible.

What is the purpose of tolerating theism


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Family_Guy wrote:

Yes, a mental health issue - but if there's no religion, it doesn't manifest itself in the form of 'demons' and 'sin' and the need for an 'exorcism' on a child.

Chuck Fristianity.

And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?

Which of these is promoted by most cultures and presented as truth to our apparently vulnerable species:

- Science FICTION

- Theism 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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To clear my analogies

To clear my analogies up.

 Rap is Theism. Gang activity is exorcism.

Sci-Fi- is Theism. Belief in alien abductions is exorcisms.

 It is the more irrational aspects of these things that cause the actions. I was raised Catholic and never believed in demonic possession. I'm sure some of the users are former Catholics or Christians and didn't believe in demonic possessions.


My point: It is one of many factors affecting this case.
Of course if he wasn't religious he wouldn't have done an exorcism, but what would he have replaced it with?


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ABx wrote: As far as rap

ABx wrote:

As far as rap goes, the music is an expression of the gang activity. In your analogy, the gang itself would be the closest equal to religion in the exorcism. To answer the correct analogy: yes, I absolutely believe we should get rid of gangs, and just like religion I would say that one of the best ways to do so would be through education and social structure.

 

My analogy was Rap music=Theism gangs=exorcisms.

 

We can keep Theism without keeping exorcisms as we can keep Rap music without keeping gangs. 

 

Sci-Fi=Theism alien abductions/possession=exorcisms.

 

You can have Sci-Fi without alien abductions. Same point with the rap music. I used two analogies to renforce my point and you seem to missed both of them.

 

 

Quote:

As far as the sci-fi thing goes, try adressing my previous rebuttal, but actually try addressing the issue rather than picking out a detail that is, by itself, irrelevant and making it seem like the crux of the rebuttal when it's not. To revisit: There ARE people that think aliens posess people and must be exorcised; it's called Scientology and UFO cult. In both cases I agree that they should be eliminated, and through the exact same means.

It's all irrational thinking, and it all needs to be addressed. We would no more want to address the expressions of the issue than we would try to address religion by eliminating exorcisms alone, or even individual practices. To address the core issue, one must eliminate the irrational thinking behind them.

 

 The number of people that hold only rational thoughts:0

 

Quote:
 

To tell the truth I find this more than a little amusing. After all the centuries of accusations that atheists are evil and cause so much "bad" in the world, one site turns it on it's head and the theists (not just Pineapple) can't let it go. Just remember, Pineapple, that atheism lacks the absolutism as well.

 

Remember my Albania topic? Oh yeah, now I remember, I am using rather similar arguments that people used in that topic. That it was other factors.


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Man killed when police try to stop exorcism

Ugh....this is kinda sick.... I wish they stunned the mother to death too....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20027027/  

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Family_Guy wrote:

Yes, a mental health issue - but if there's no religion, it doesn't manifest itself in the form of 'demons' and 'sin' and the need for an 'exorcism' on a child.

Chuck Fristianity.

 

And if he thought she was possesed with aliens, should we get rid of sci-fi?

 

you're absolutely right. we consider people who worship aliens and gather others to board the ship riding in the tail of haley's comet a threat and a danger to others, so we should consider people who perform exorcisms in the name of religion a threat and a danger to others.

after all, their both just cults. 

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Cpt_pineapple wrote: To

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

To clear my analogies up.

 Rap is Theism. Gang activity is exorcism.

 To clear up further, this is a bad analogy.

Exorcism is a part of theism. There is no exorcism outside of theism. Exorcism is completly inside of and dependent on theism. Rap and Gang activity are two separate concepts. Rap would exist without gangs and gangs would exist without rap. There's some interaction but they can both exist without the other.

 With sets: T is theism, E is exorcism, R is rap and G is gang activity.

E is a subset of T so: The intersection of T and E is not empty (It is equal to E) and the intersection of T and (not E) is not empty and the intersection of (not T) and E is empty

also the union of T and E is T 

The intersection of R and G is not empty and the intersection of R and (not G) is also not empty but the intersection of (not R) and G is not empty.

and the union of R and G is neither R nor G. It contains more members than either one individually

(not T) and E = 0 

(not R) and G != 0

T or E = T 

R or G != R

If someone wants to draw the Venn diagrams I'd be thankful.

 

but why am I arguing? any reason to ban rap is a good reason.

Quote:

Sci-Fi- is Theism. Belief in alien abductions is exorcisms.

 another bad analogy. Like Rap music and gang activity sci-fi and ufo nuts can exist independently of eachother. Yes they do influence eachother but one could easily exist without the other.

And as everyone has been pointing out there's a difference between reading fiction and believing fiction. a better analogy

1) Reading Sci-fi = Studying greek mythology = reading the bible

2) Believing in alien abductions = worshipping zeus = being a christian

3) Killing someone because you belive they are an alien = making human sacrifices to zeus = exorcism

 

1 in each case is perrfectly reasonable, rational and safe. Unless the material is presented as fact there's no reason why this would lead to 2 and it's even less likely to lead to 3

2 in each case is irrational and creates the potential for 3

Quote:
 

My point: It is one of many factors affecting this case.
Of course if he wasn't religious he wouldn't have done an exorcism, but what would he have replaced it with?

proper medical treatment. In most exorcisms it is the victim who is mentally ill. The symptoms of that mental illness are what are mistaken for demonic possesion. Even if the one who insists an exorcism is nessesary also happens to be mentally ill there will be others around them who can act rationally and take them both to see a psychiatrist.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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ParanoidAgnostic

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

To clear my analogies up.

Rap is Theism. Gang activity is exorcism.

To clear up further, this is a bad analogy.

Exorcism is a part of theism. There is no exorcism outside of theism. Exorcism is completly inside of and dependent on theism.

I never made a statement to the contrary. 

 

Quote:
 

Rap and Gang activity are two separate concepts. Rap would exist without gangs and gangs would exist without rap. There's some interaction but they can both exist without the other.

 

True, but rap music can influence kids to join gangs. One could argue gang activity wouldn't be so wide spread without rap.  A proper counter argument would say rap was a factor, not the cause.

 

My purpose of the analogy is to illustrate my point. Theism may be a factor, not the outright cause. If Theism is taken out, it may be replaced by something else. Such as if we get rid of rap, kids may have other influences to join a gang and not much will change. 

 

Quote:
 

With sets: T is theism, E is exorcism, R is rap and G is gang activity.

E is a subset of T so: The intersection of T and E is not empty (It is equal to E) and the intersection of T and (not E) is not empty and the intersection of (not T) and E is empty

also the union of T and E is T

The intersection of R and G is not empty and the intersection of R and (not G) is also not empty but the intersection of (not R) and G is not empty.

and the union of R and G is neither R nor G. It contains more members than either one individually

(not T) and E = 0

(not R) and G != 0

T or E = T

R or G != R

If someone wants to draw the Venn diagrams I'd be thankful.

 

but why am I arguing? any reason to ban rap is a good reason.

 

 My argument was that they will replace the exorcism with something else, such as 'an alien cleansing cermony' or something. 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:

Sci-Fi- is Theism. Belief in alien abductions is exorcisms.

another bad analogy. Like Rap music and gang activity sci-fi and ufo nuts can exist independently of eachother. Yes they do influence eachother but one could easily exist without the other.

And as everyone has been pointing out there's a difference between reading fiction and believing fiction. a better analogy

1) Reading Sci-fi = Studying greek mythology = reading the bible

2) Believing in alien abductions = worshipping zeus = being a christian

3) Killing someone because you belive they are an alien = making human sacrifices to zeus = exorcism

 

1 in each case is perrfectly reasonable, rational and safe. Unless the material is presented as fact there's no reason why this would lead to 2 and it's even less likely to lead to 3

2 in each case is irrational and creates the potential for 3

 

But people DO take sci-fi serously and do have their thoughts influenced by sci-fi. 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:

My point: It is one of many factors affecting this case.
Of course if he wasn't religious he wouldn't have done an exorcism, but what would he have replaced it with?

proper medical treatment. In most exorcisms it is the victim who is mentally ill. The symptoms of that mental illness are what are mistaken for demonic possesion. Even if the one who insists an exorcism is nessesary also happens to be mentally ill there will be others around them who can act rationally and take them both to see a psychiatrist.

 

How do you know that they would seek medical treatment?  


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: True,

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

True, but rap music can influence kids to join gangs. One could argue gang activity wouldn't be so wide spread without rap.  A proper counter argument would say rap was a factor, not the cause.

 I wasn't arguing against the argument, I was demonstarting that the analogy does not work so I don't even need to look at the argument that you based on it until you find a correct analogy.

Quote:

My purpose of the analogy is to illustrate my point. Theism may be a factor, not the outright cause. If Theism is taken out, it may be replaced by something else.

More broadly irrationality is the cause. And respecting irrational beliefs allows it to happen. People will always be irrational but religion tells us to respect and share irrationality. Without religion people may still try similar things out of their own irrationality but those around them can say "you're being an idiot, stop that"

Quote:
 

 My argument was that they will replace the exorcism with something else, such as 'an alien cleansing cermony' or something. 

 

I'ts less likely that the family of that individual would share the delusions and assist in the ceremony rather than doing something to stop it.

Quote:

But people DO take sci-fi serously and do have their thoughts influenced by sci-fi. 

People do not take Sci-fi seriously. Some nuts take aliens seriously. Yes sci-fi often involves aliens but the idea also exists outside of sci-fi. If that was not the case then noone would beleive in aliens because within sci-fi aliens are fiction. 

Quote:

How do you know that they would seek medical treatment?  

Because that is the rational thing to do. And without irrational opposition to the idea that is the course of action most people would take. Even if there is one irrational nut insisting that the person is controlled by aliens there will be others around who do not agree. The others (who have no reason to respect the insanity) can take them both to get help. or call the authorities before things get out of hand.

 

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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ParanoidAgnostic

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

True, but rap music can influence kids to join gangs. One could argue gang activity wouldn't be so wide spread without rap. A proper counter argument would say rap was a factor, not the cause.

I wasn't arguing against the argument, I was demonstarting that the analogy does not work so I don't even need to look at the argument that you based on it until you find a correct analogy.

 

It's not a perfect analogy but I think it illustrates my point.

 

Quote:
 

Quote:

My purpose of the analogy is to illustrate my point. Theism may be a factor, not the outright cause. If Theism is taken out, it may be replaced by something else.

More broadly irrationality is the cause. And respecting irrational beliefs allows it to happen. People will always be irrational but religion tells us to respect and share irrationality. Without religion people may still try similar things out of their own irrationality but those around them can say "you're being an idiot, stop that"

 

Saying 'you're being an idiot, stop that' wouldn't vanquish the irrational belief. Case in point alien conspiracy theories.

  My point is you start 'attacking' the irrational beliefs, suddenly they become the underdog, trying to be silenced by the government because the government will go to any lengths to hide it. It will reinforce their beliefs, not get rid of them. Of course the more the government denies it, the more ammo the theorists have.

 Personally, I feel education is the best way to do it. When exorcisms were routine, little was known about physcology. Now, we have wealth of knowledge, and should educate others to access it. My Theists friends all look down upon exorcism and their friends etc.. I have yet to meet a Theist who takes demonic possesion seriously. 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:

My argument was that they will replace the exorcism with something else, such as 'an alien cleansing cermony' or something.

I'ts less likely that the family of that individual would share the delusions and assist in the ceremony rather than doing something to stop it.

What if the family also believed in aliens?  

 

 

Quote:

Quote:

But people DO take sci-fi serously and do have their thoughts influenced by sci-fi.

People do not take Sci-fi seriously. Some nuts take aliens seriously. Yes sci-fi often involves aliens but the idea also exists outside of sci-fi. If that was not the case then noone would beleive in aliens because within sci-fi aliens are fiction.

Of course aliens exist outside of sci-fi. However, Sci-fi re-enforces the notion of aliens. If a believer saw an alien parasite movie for example, they may add the notion of parasites to their alien belief if they didn't believe in parasites before.

 

 

Quote:

Quote:

How do you know that they would seek medical treatment?

Because that is the rational thing to do. And without irrational opposition to the idea that is the course of action most people would take. Even if there is one irrational nut insisting that the person is controlled by aliens there will be others around who do not agree. The others (who have no reason to respect the insanity) can take them both to get help. or call the authorities before things get out of hand.

 

Like I said, if I thought people were possed by demons, my Christian friends would turn me in. So I guess it would depend on the situation . I'm sure there are situations where nobody turns in the 'The CIA is talking to me through mind waves' people even though it is an obviously irrational belief.

 


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Voiderest

Voiderest wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
y halo thar strawman

...

You missed the point. It's in London by now, should I buy you a ticket?

Did you not compare the two as a response to the response of your sci-fi comparisons? I wasn't saying you were in favor of ending rap, but I thought you were trying to make a point with it. I don't know what other point you could be making if it isn't that 'theism doesn't cause harm' like 'rap doesn't cause harm.' If isn't some how related to this discussion I'm not sure why you would bring it up...

The way your post was worded I thought you said I wanted to end rap. Anyway, my point was theism is a factor, but not the cause, as rap is a factor, but not the cause.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
So how does exorcism sci-fi relate to theism aliens? Well exorcism sci-fi wouldn't exist without the ideas of supernatural entities aliens and religious practices, ufos what exorcism sci-fi is.

Are trying to say exorcism would exist without theism?

BTW you should be saying, "How does alien abduction relate to sci-fi?" although thats flawed because most people don't believe sci-fi is true.

 

No, I am not saying that exorcism wouldn't exist without theism. My point was it could be replaced by something else such as 'alien cleansing'. 

 

Quote:

Quote:
Roswell? Is that 'Sc-fi' Many people don't think so.

So those people are delusional. This doesn't help your case...

They are delusional, my point is people will believe regardless. 

 

Quote:

Quote:
True, but what would he have replaced it with if he thought she was possed by aliens?

The problem you have is that sci-fi books are normally not written to be taken as truth (scientology and a few other cults are the exception here). Holybooks are.

I don't see why people take the bible as truth either. It was written 2,000 years ago where the ignorance in science was prevailent. I don't know why people take it literally today.  No Theist friend I know takes it literally.

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
Without the idea of that demons aliens is causing X a person might get real help. Now with the idea that one can choke the demons aliens out of a person things will just get messy. The demons aliens are probably an illness and exorcism errrr... alien cleansing(?) is chicken soup made with sewer water.

You know now that I think about it you do have a good analogy. The only problem is that most people don't believe in sci-fi. I read religious texts like I do sci-fi. The people you talk about believe sci-fi is true but it isn't. The exorcist believes his fairy tales are true, but they aren't. So its sci-fi = body of religious works not theism. Sci-fi isn't a belief, but a collection of stories and ideas. If someone believed in these sci-fi ideas like religious people do their works we'd call them crazy. I guess my problem with your comparison was the misplacement of belief and works. I don't blame books for a persons action, but a can blame their belief for their action. Exorcism is built on the idea that religious works are true. Not in itself theism, but theism is a part of it.

Re-cap:

Sci-fi = Body of religious work

Belief sci-fi is true = theism

alien abduction = exorcism

So the idea of alien abductions is built on the idea that sci-fi is true.

 

Theism can exist without exorcisms. Exorcisms were started during a period where psychological knowledge was lacking. Now we have this knowledge, so I don't know why they hang on to it. It could be the same reason people hang on the alien abduction believes.

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: No, I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
No, I am not saying that exorcism wouldn't exist without theism. My point was it could be replaced by something else such as 'alien cleansing'.

And the kind of thinking that stems from shouldn't get a free pass either, its the same. Your argument amounts to "its going to happen anyway don't worry about it." This means that in your mind nothing can or should be done, thus allowing it to happen.

Quote:
They are delusional, my point is people will believe regardless.

Notice how those beliefs aren't respected that much? Things like exorcism can exist because they are under the umbrella of religion and go by largely unquestioned and unchallenged. It seems it takes a man chocking a child for someone to say something...

Quote:
I don't see why people take the bible as truth either. It was written 2,000 years ago where the ignorance in science was prevailent. I don't know why people take it literally today. No Theist friend I know takes it literally.

I said holybook so it would mean any. It is curious to watch you compare something such as sci-fi (fiction) with theism trying to defend it. I also find it curious that you would think a god would convey its message in riddles.

Quote:
Theism can exist without exorcisms.

Sure, but the "exorcism wouldn't exist without theism" still stands.

Quote:
Exorcisms were started during a period where psychological knowledge was lacking. Now we have this knowledge, so I don't know why they hang on to it. It could be the same reason people hang on the alien abduction believes.

Do you apply this same kind of thinking to god belief?


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Voiderest

Voiderest wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
No, I am not saying that exorcism wouldn't exist without theism. My point was it could be replaced by something else such as 'alien cleansing'.

And the kind of thinking that stems from shouldn't get a free pass either, its the same. Your argument amounts to "its going to happen anyway don't worry about it." This means that in your mind nothing can or should be done, thus allowing it to happen.

 

Since when did I say 'don't worry about it'? My point is we can vanquish exorcism and keep Theism.

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
They are delusional, my point is people will believe regardless.

Notice how those beliefs aren't respected that much? Things like exorcism can exist because they are under the umbrella of religion and go by largely unquestioned and unchallenged. It seems it takes a man chocking a child for someone to say something...

 

Bullshit. I don't know of any of my Theists friends that will take demon possession seriously.  

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
I don't see why people take the bible as truth either. It was written 2,000 years ago where the ignorance in science was prevailent. I don't know why people take it literally today. No Theist friend I know takes it literally.

I said holybook so it would mean any. It is curious to watch you compare something such as sci-fi (fiction) with theism trying to defend it. I also find it curious that you would think a god would convey its message in riddles.

 If you don't like the sci-fi analogy here's another one and I will explain my point clearly this time.

Governments and Fascism. Governments can exist without Fascism, but Fascism cannot exist without government. So do we get rid of government? No. We monitor it to ensure that it doesn't become Fascist. I feel this is the role of the moderates. The moderates are normal government and these nutjobs are Fascism. Irrational government beliefs lead to Fascism, irrational Theistic beliefs lead to this. Eliminating religion completly to end this is an unrealistic solution as ending all governments to stop Fascism. 

Who do you think these people are more likely to listen to? Atheists, or fellow Theists? 

This is my main point all spelt out for you. 

 

 

 

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Theism can exist without exorcisms.

Sure, but the "exorcism wouldn't exist without theism" still stands.

 

See above. 

 

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Exorcisms were started during a period where psychological knowledge was lacking. Now we have this knowledge, so I don't know why they hang on to it. It could be the same reason people hang on the alien abduction believes.

Do you apply this same kind of thinking to god belief?

 

Yes.  


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Since

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Since when did I say 'don't worry about it'? My point is we can vanquish exorcism and keep Theism.

If you aren't arguing do nothing why say they would replace it with something else?

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Bullshit. I don't know of any of my Theists friends that will take demon possession seriously.

I wasn't talking about your friends...

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity

If the numbers of catholics are any indication the idea of exorism is accept by a good number of people.

man argues this exorcism was bad, but other exorcism is cool

doctor prescribed an exorism

Not things I'd expect if people questioned it.

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If you don't like the sci-fi analogy here's another one and I will explain my point clearly this time.

No, I do like it, but movie doesn't equal belief movie is true.

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Governments and Fascism. Governments can exist without Fascism, but Fascism cannot exist without government. So do we get rid of government? No. We monitor it to ensure that it doesn't become Fascist. I feel this is the role of the moderates. The moderates are normal government and these nutjobs are Fascism. Irrational government beliefs lead to Fascism, irrational Theistic beliefs lead to this. Eliminating religion completly to end this is an unrealistic solution as ending all governments to stop Fascism.

The argument wasn't "this is THE reason why theism should end"... It just points out how irrational beliefs can go from bad to worse. Exorism isn't the only reason why people here would like to see religion end.

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Who do you think these people are more likely to listen to? Atheists, or fellow Theists?

This is my main point all spelt out for you.

The site's goal isn't to end exorism alone...

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Yes.

[Belief in gods was] started during a period where psychological knowledge was lacking. Now we have [more] knowledge, so I don't know why they hang on to it. It could be the same reason people hang on the alien abduction believes.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:  If

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 If you don't like the sci-fi analogy here's another one and I will explain my point clearly this time.

Governments and Fascism. Governments can exist without Fascism, but Fascism cannot exist without government. So do we get rid of government? No. We monitor it to ensure that it doesn't become Fascist. I feel this is the role of the moderates. The moderates are normal government and these nutjobs are Fascism. Irrational government beliefs lead to Fascism, irrational Theistic beliefs lead to this. Eliminating religion completly to end this is an unrealistic solution as ending all governments to stop Fascism. 

 A much better analogy. But lets look at the specifics.

Theism is fundamentally irrational. Having government is rational. To work together and share resources fairly we need someone making rules and ensuring they are enforced. Within this rational framework we can distinguish good ideas (speed limits) from bad ideas (fascism). Within theism everything is irrational so there is no real basis to jugde good ideas (if there are any) from bad ones(exorcism)

Once you start making descions in the absence of logic bad ones are easier to make.

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Who do you think these people are more likely to listen to? Atheists, or fellow Theists? 

This is my main point all spelt out for you. 

By that logic we should keep homophobia so that the non-violent bigots can talk the others out of murdering gays

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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If you aren't arguing do nothing why say they would replace it with something else?

 

As I said before, education is the key.

 

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I wasn't talking about your friends...

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity

If the numbers of catholics are any indication the idea of exorism is accept by a good number of people.

man argues this exorcism was bad, but other exorcism is cool

doctor prescribed an exorism

Not things I'd expect if people questioned it.

 

 

I have a theory. You live in the U.S (I see from your badge from Texas, a greatly red/Christian state) I live in Canada. Both have a Christian majority. However, this is seems to be wide spread in the U.S so I can see why you would think this is common place among Christians. However, I live in Canada, where killing for exorcism is as likely as killing for Sailor Moon. (We have an insanly low murder rate).

I believe the reason you argue for the end of religion is because you're stuck with the Kent Hovinds, where as I am living near the moderates so I adon't see firsthand the 'problems' religion.

 

I have another Theory. Of how we can keep Theism and get rid of the Kent Hovinds. Would you like to know what that is?

 

 

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No, I do like it, but movie doesn't equal belief movie is true.

Then I guess it was ParanoidAgnostic who disliked my analogy

 

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The argument wasn't "this is THE reason why theism should end"... It just points out how irrational beliefs can go from bad to worse. Exorism isn't the only reason why people here would like to see religion end.

I know, I've heard similar arguements and presented similar counter-argumente.

 

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The site's goal isn't to end exorism alone...

I feel that is quite obvious. However, exorcism is the centre of discussion in this topic.

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[Belief in gods was] started during a period where psychological knowledge was lacking. Now we have [more] knowledge, so I don't know why they hang on to it. It could be the same reason people hang on the alien abduction believes.

 

You took math in high school? Guess what, the vast majority of it was derived in ancient times, from before the time of the bible, to during the time of the bible, the most recent theory is probably 1700's. These started when mathematical knowledge was lacking, but it led to a basic foundation.

 

My point: these were created where knowledge was lacking, doesn't mean we should automatically discard them.

 

 

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

If you don't like the sci-fi analogy here's another one and I will explain my point clearly this time.

Governments and Fascism. Governments can exist without Fascism, but Fascism cannot exist without government. So do we get rid of government? No. We monitor it to ensure that it doesn't become Fascist. I feel this is the role of the moderates. The moderates are normal government and these nutjobs are Fascism. Irrational government beliefs lead to Fascism, irrational Theistic beliefs lead to this. Eliminating religion completly to end this is an unrealistic solution as ending all governments to stop Fascism.

A much better analogy. But lets look at the specifics.

Theism is fundamentally irrational. Having government is rational. To work together and share resources fairly we need someone making rules and ensuring they are enforced. Within this rational framework we can distinguish good ideas (speed limits) from bad ideas (fascism). Within theism everything is irrational so there is no real basis to jugde good ideas (if there are any) from bad ones(exorcism)

Once you start making descions in the absence of logic bad ones are easier to make.

 

I don't really think politicians use logic to create their policies.

 

Anyway, the complete elimination of irrational thought is impossible. My point, is I see no reason that science/reason and religion cannot co-exist.

 

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Who do you think these people are more likely to listen to? Atheists, or fellow Theists?

This is my main point all spelt out for you.

By that logic we should keep homophobia so that the non-violent bigots can talk the others out of murdering gays

 

False analogy. By default, homophobia preaches hate. Theists do not have to preach hate.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I don't really think politicians use logic to create their policies.

Anyway, the complete elimination of irrational thought is impossible. My point, is I see no reason that science/reason and religion cannot co-exist.

The point is that in government there is a logical framework. There is a way to discern good ideas from bad ones. As theism is a completely irrational foundation there's no logical way do judge the level of stupidity of any idea within it. If god wants you to decapitate your neighbours who are you to argue? 

Government has certain logical purposes. we can test any idea against those purposes. It is possible to apply logic within government. Whether we choose to or not is another matter.

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False analogy. By default, homophobia preaches hate. Theists do not have to preach hate.

Not really a false analogy. You argued that we should keep one irrational idea so that the less destructive followers of that idea can keep the more destructive ones in line. I simply replaced one irrational belief (theism) with another (homophobia) to show it's a silly argument.

Another one... There are mentally ill people who aren't violent therefore we should not treat mental illness so the nonviolent ones can encourage the violent ones to not hurt people.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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ParanoidAgnostic

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I don't really think politicians use logic to create their policies.

Anyway, the complete elimination of irrational thought is impossible. My point, is I see no reason that science/reason and religion cannot co-exist.

The point is that in government there is a logical framework. There is a way to discern good ideas from bad ones. As theism is a completely irrational foundation there's no logical way do judge the level of stupidity of any idea within it. If god wants you to decapitate your neighbours who are you to argue?

Then why don't all Muslims commit sucicide bombings? Why don't all Christians go on Crusades? 

 

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Government has certain logical purposes. we can test any idea against those purposes. It is possible to apply logic within government. Whether we choose to or not is another matter.

We hardly do.

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False analogy. By default, homophobia preaches hate. Theists do not have to preach hate.

Not really a false analogy. You argued that we should keep one irrational idea so that the less destructive followers of that idea can keep the more destructive ones in line. I simply replaced one irrational belief (theism) with another (homophobia) to show it's a silly argument.

Another one... There are mentally ill people who aren't violent therefore we should not treat mental illness so the nonviolent ones can encourage the violent ones to not hurt people.

 

When I took a psychology course at my university, we started with a discussion as to 'what is a mental illness?' This isn't as easy to define as you think.  If something goes against the social norm, do we label it a 'mental illness?' Do we put them in a box because they are different? It was a rather interesting discussion.

 

Anyway, another false analogy.  Your first one was false because homophobia requires hatred, religion does not. This one is also false because mental disorders is a psychological condition.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: As I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
As I said before, education is the key.

Education isn't the only thing needed when emotions and faith are apart of their truth seeking methods.

Quote:
I have a theory. You live in the U.S (I see from your badge from Texas, a greatly red/Christian state) I live in Canada. Both have a Christian majority. However, this is seems to be wide spread in the U.S so I can see why you would think this is common place among Christians. However, I live in Canada, where killing for exorcism is as likely as killing for Sailor Moon. (We have an insanly low murder rate).

I believe the reason you argue for the end of religion is because you're stuck with the Kent Hovinds, where as I am living near the moderates so I adon't see firsthand the 'problems' religion.

Moderate christians are just as much of a problem. They give the fundies support and credibility.

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I have another Theory. Of how we can keep Theism and get rid of the Kent Hovinds. Would you like to know what that is?

I don't want to keep theism, its a philosophy of ignorance.

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I know, I've heard similar arguements and presented similar counter-argumente.

They didn't work too well did they...

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You took math in high school? Guess what, the vast majority of it was derived in ancient times, from before the time of the bible, to during the time of the bible, the most recent theory is probably 1700's. These started when mathematical knowledge was lacking, but it led to a basic foundation.

My point: these were created where knowledge was lacking, doesn't mean we should automatically discard them.

You were the one who said people believed in exorcism because they lacked knowledge. It isn't just lacking knowledge that would lead someone to believe in something like that. There are psychological factors that are involved when people believe in irrational things, but you argued that was why so using the same reasoning we can question god belief.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Then

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Then why don't all Muslims commit sucicide bombings? Why don't all Christians go on Crusades? 

forces external to religion have started to keep them in check.

 

Quote:

Anyway, another false analogy.  Your first one was false because homophobia requires hatred, religion does not. This one is also false because mental disorders is a psychological condition.

Gee, what a double standard. The concepts in your analogies don't even have the same relationship to each other but every detail of mine must match.

this is like me dropping a blue ball and using it as an analogy to how a red ball will fall. you'd dissagree because they are different colours.

 

oh great I've just answered your critisism of my analogy with an analogy to your critisism. We're all doomed.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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Voiderest

Voiderest wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
As I said before, education is the key.

Education isn't the only thing needed when emotions and faith are apart of their truth seeking methods.

What?

Quote:
Quote:
I have a theory. You live in the U.S (I see from your badge from Texas, a greatly red/Christian state) I live in Canada. Both have a Christian majority. However, this is seems to be wide spread in the U.S so I can see why you would think this is common place among Christians. However, I live in Canada, where killing for exorcism is as likely as killing for Sailor Moon. (We have an insanly low murder rate).

I believe the reason you argue for the end of religion is because you're stuck with the Kent Hovinds, where as I am living near the moderates so I adon't see firsthand the 'problems' religion.

Moderate christians are just as much of a problem. They give the fundies support and credibility.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you are suggesting the the fundies hide behind the moderates, I disagree. The reason should be obvious. Anything can be taken to the extreme. 

{edit for clarity} 

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I have another Theory. Of how we can keep Theism and get rid of the Kent Hovinds. Would you like to know what that is?

I don't want to keep theism, its a philosophy of ignorance.

 

Who died and made you Emperor?

 

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I know, I've heard similar arguements and presented similar counter-argumente.

They didn't work too well did they..

You have no idea what I'm saying do you?

 

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You took math in high school? Guess what, the vast majority of it was derived in ancient times, from before the time of the bible, to during the time of the bible, the most recent theory is probably 1700's. These started when mathematical knowledge was lacking, but it led to a basic foundation.

My point: these were created where knowledge was lacking, doesn't mean we should automatically discard them.

You were the one who said people believed in exorcism because they lacked knowledge. It isn't just lacking knowledge that would lead someone to believe in something like that. There are psychological factors that are involved when people believe in irrational things, but you argued that was why so using the same reasoning we can question god belief.

Many of my Theists friends questioned their beliefs. They're still Theists. When I first started university I was an atheist. I questioned that.

 

ParaniodAgnostic wrote:

forces external to religion have started to keep them in check.

I'd like to call bullshit on that. The change was from within.

One could argue there are external forces to get them to do the suicide bombings and crusades. For example, Bin Laden is calling for the U.S military pull out from Saudia Arabia. That is his goal. The vast majority of suicide bombers are doing the exact same thing, to remove occuping military forces from their homeland.

 

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Gee, what a double standard. The concepts in your analogies don't even have the same relationship to each other but every detail of mine must match.

this is like me dropping a blue ball and using it as an analogy to how a red ball will fall. you'd dissagree because they are different colours.

 

oh great I've just answered your critisism of my analogy with an analogy to your critisism. We're all doomed.

 

You pointed them out on mine, why can't I point them out on yours? As I said before Homophia cannot exist without bigotry. Religion can. It is rather similar to your objections to my analogies.