War on Easter - Debunking an Easter Miracle

SF
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War on Easter - Debunking an Easter Miracle

Check this out: http://www.greatlie.com/en/articles.cfm?action=detail&id=33   The "Miracle" of the Holy Light of Jerusalem, is a recurring  'miracle' happening each year with clock work precision, in the Holy Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem, to the delight of a large congregation of Christians of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Many pilgrims travel to Jerusalem repeatedly for the occasion.

The patriarch retires inside the crypt and prays and then appears with the miraculous light, to the ecstasy of the attending crowd. At the same time, fire is reported to appear lighting the candles in and out of the Church spontaneously. Wax torches held by the pilgrims are also sporadically seen to be lighted by 'divine' intervention, after smoking for some time.
 Blue-white lightning is reported to sometimes appear and travel through the air. The miraculous fire lighting the patriarchs' candle has been reported to be different from normal fire, in that a hand placed in the flame is not burned (at least the hands of the believers, and only for the first 33 minutes after the miracle)  If there are any Rational Responders that can be in Jerusalem this year on Orthodox Easter to investigate - that would be great.


Rigor_OMortis
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What is significant is only

What is significant is only the light the Patriarch brings out. However... I believe that even a chicken-head can realize that this is not a miracle. The Orthodox Church itself doesn't state it is, I quote, "a miracle happening each year with clockwork precision".

Basically: The Patriarch goes in the crypt, lights the light and then comes out. Nothing miraculous in that.

The whole thing is supposed to be a REPRESENTATION of a miracle, a symbol, if you like to call it so, symbol that has entered tradition like rituals in the Orthodox Church, that are radically different from what you see in Catholic or reformed churches. Taking light from the candle of the Patriarch is nothing more than the ritual of hope, imitating the Holy Spirit coming down of the eleven apostles after the resurrection of Christ (hence, the Church of the Holy Resurrection).

I am really sorry if media in the USA covers it as a live miracle happening. This is only to prove that some people want the large masses to be as ignorant as possible on reality.

Therefore: there is no need for anybody to go there, and that for two reasons:

1. it isn't a miracle, but a symbol (aunt+uncle+cousin been there five or six years ago, seen the whole event with own eyes)

2. even if it was considered a miracle, there's NO WAY you'll be able to make it in the crypt to see with your own eyes

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


SF
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Well, I'm from Romania - a

Well, I'm from Romania - a deeply Orthodox country and I know for a fact that the Church presents it like it's the real deal. Even their official website claims it's a genuine miracle: http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

Breaking the spell on that one should give rise to a strong atheist group in Eastern Europe too. 


StMichael
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It is considered a miracle,

It is considered a miracle, and not a ritual representation of a miracle. The Catholic Church has never had any statement on the Holy Pascha, so I leave judgement open on it.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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SF wrote: Well, I'm from

SF wrote:
Well, I'm from Romania - a deeply Orthodox country and I know for a fact that the Church presents it like it's the real deal. Even their official website claims it's a genuine miracle: http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

Breaking the spell on that one should give rise to a strong atheist group in Eastern Europe too. 

It's too bad that it's presented as a real miracle,I would accept it without any problem as a tradition.

I will therefore present my arguments for its unauthenticity:

- as I said, some of my relatives have witnessed the ritual. Nothing miraculous in it from the outside.

- nobody is allowed to go inside when the miracle supposedly "happens"

- nobody has ever had the idea of mounting a video camera inside, so that the miracle could be witnessed live

- nobody will ever allow you to do that (referring to the above)

Debunking some things from the site you gave:

Quote:
As with any other miracle there are people who believe it is a fraud and nothing but a masterpiece of Orthodox propaganda. They believe the Patriarch has a lighter inside of the tomb. These critics, however, are confronted with a number of problems. Matches and other means of ignition are recent inventions. Only a few hundred years ago lighting a fire was an undertaking that lasted much longer than the few minutes during which the Patriarch is inside the tomb.

False. Two minutes is enough with practice and skill, and the proper tools inside. All these tools have existed for thousands of years. Proper rock, a sponge that catches fire easily and a metal shard should do it. I doubt the church wasn't resourceful enough. The Patriarch could carry them when he goes in. Such a way to light the fire would not be heard, not from the distance believers are allowed to be.

Quote:
One then could perhaps say, he had an oil lamp burning inside, from which he kindled the candles, but the local authorities confirmed that they had checked the tomb and found no light inside it.

I wish to check out that tomb myself. Preferably when the "miracle" is supposed to happen. Why won't anyone allow me to do that?

Quote:
The biggest challenges confronting the critics are the thousands of independent testimonies by pilgrims whose candles were lit spontaneously in front of their eyes without any possible explanation. According to our investigations, it has never been possible to film any of the candles or oil lamps igniting by themselves.

Quod erat demonstrandum on this one.

Quote:
However, I am in the possession of a video filmed by a young engineer from Bethlehem, Souhel Nabdiel. Mr. Nabdiel has been present at the ceremony of the Holy Fire since his early childhood. In 1996 he was asked to film the ceremony from the balcony of the dome of the Church. Present with him on the balcony were a nun and four other believers. The nun stood at the right hand of Nabdiel. On the video one can see how he films down on the crowds. At a certain point all lights are turned off - it is time for the Patriarch to enter the tomb and receive the Holy Fire. While he is still inside the tomb one suddenly hears a scream of surprise and wonder originating from the nun standing next to Nabdiel. The camera begins to shake, as one hears the excited voices of the other people present on the balcony. The camera now turns to the right, whereby it is possible to contemplate the cause of the commotion. A big candle, held in the hand of the Russian nun, takes fire in front of all the people present before the patriarch comes out of the tomb. She holds the candle with shaking hands while making the sign of the Cross over and over again in awe of the miracle she has witnessed. This video appears to be the closest one gets to an actual filming of the miracle.

...but it hasn't actually filmed the miracle, has it ?

 

Too bad. I kind of liked the idea.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


hellfiend666
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It's funny how god doesn't

It's funny how god doesn't seem to like his work being documented on video.  It's always a case of, "these people said it happens regularly, but when we took a camera, we got nothing".  That leaves us to conclude either it's a gross misinterpritation of natural phenominon, resulting in mass hysteria, or "god" really doesn't want his message spread as far as people think.  Quite a shame how there was no link to the video in question.  Makes me wonder if that even really exsists.

The darkness of godlessness lets wisdom shine.


Rigor_OMortis
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It doesn't matter if the

It doesn't matter if the film actually exists or not, you've read that it doesn't catch anything noteworthy.

Sure, the Church has "proof"... but people have yet to see it.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


Harry Haller
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Arguments against the alleged miracle

Hello from Greece!

Just a  few minutes ago I stumbled upon this interesting conversation and since the so-called «miracle of the Holy Fire» is a subject I have been delving into for the past 4 years, I decided without second thought to register here just to share with you some important informations about the phenomenon. On my blog you could find a dozen of relevant articles, but unfortunately they're all in Greek. One of them though, the most extensive one, has been translated by blogger EvanT for the english blog of the greek atheists. So I invite you all to read it! 

http://onthewaytoithaca.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/the-holy-light-of-jerusalem-debunked

 For anyone who speaks or understands German, there's one more interesting article to read. It was originally posted on my greek blog and later translated in German.

http://wasistwahrheit.blogspot.com/2010/03/die-entscharfung-der-auerkosmischen.html

 Unfortunately though I don't blog anymore. I just got tired ...

Thank you! 

 


Brian37
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StMichael wrote:It is

StMichael wrote:
It is considered a miracle, and not a ritual representation of a miracle. The Catholic Church has never had any statement on the Holy Pascha, so I leave judgement open on it. Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom, StMichael

There is nothing to be "judged". There is simply a popular myth sold to the public that a human escaped death, which in reality DOES NOT HAPPEN.

We are not simply talking about clinical death which simply means vital signs not being detectable. The story would have you believe, that his blood drained out of his body.

Without a transfusion this IN REALITY would cause irreversible damage which the human body would not come back from. The story is that he was tortured to death to cause death, by means of bleeding him out,

IN REALITY once you have lost too much blood you die, that is it. Then once you die, all the cells and organs in your body DIE. after that whatever little blood would be left in your body would settle to the lowest point of gravity. Rigor would set in and your body would stiffen. THIS IS LONG AFTER BRAIN DEATH AND CELL DEATH.

You do not come back from that. PERIOD!

The Jesus myth is nothing but a spin off of the animal sacrifice the polytheists prior took part in.

If you can accept that it would be impossible for someone to come back from death after having their head blown off with a shotgun, then you should be able to accept modern science and WHY it rejects such absurd claims of a zombie god myth.

The bible is merely a book of myth and the death of Jesus as claimed in the bible is a myth too.

You can believe a lie all you want, but wanting a lie to be true, doesn't make it true and popularity of a lie doesn't make it true. Otherwise the earth would be flat because it was once a popular belief.

 

 

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