Motivations to believe in, and worship God.

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Motivations to believe in, and worship God.

I'm posting this to Kill 'em with kindness -forum, because I want honest and polite answers. Not a trading of insults and mockeries.

I was wondering if there are noble reasons to believe in, and worship God. The not-noble reasons to believe are (for example) fear, guilt and gain. Some may believe in God because they are frightened of him. These people will also try to "save" others from the eternal torture. Some may believe because of the guilt of their past "sins". Some believe because they want to live forever, and their ego can't stand the idea of a mortal, limited life.

Some guy here on RRS told me that he worships God because he wants to honor his creation. I have to say, that doesn't sound too bad, but are there other good reasons to worship and believe?


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I would say no.  Let’s

I would say no. 

Let’s look at what god has done for the world?

 

Do we live in a problem free paradise?

Does the helpless child of the world know no hunger?

The world has no true justice, few know elaborate luxury while majority have nothing.

Yet both have the same chance for eternal live.

 

Why, because we are being punished for some ancestor denying him.

 

In his ultimate love he cast us out. He gives us freedom of will and desires that counter act his laws that govern us. Then he pits us against each other for his attention to get into heaven.

 

Let’s not forget using us as pawns in a battle between Satan and himself that we had nothing to do with!

 

So basically god put us in thunder dome, and only the winners go to heaven.

 

So why would an omniscience being create a race that he knows will fail his wish to take a select few to eternal bliss?

 

There is no good in this god of yours.

   

 

Man is the only animal in all of nature that cannot accept its own mortality.


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Larty wrote: I'm posting

Larty wrote:

I'm posting this to Kill 'em with kindness -forum, because I want honest and polite answers. Not a trading of insults and mockeries.

I was wondering if there are noble reasons to believe in, and worship God. The not-noble reasons to believe are (for example) fear, guilt and gain. Some may believe in God because they are frightened of him. These people will also try to "save" others from the eternal torture. Some may believe because of the guilt of their past "sins". Some believe because they want to live forever, and their ego can't stand the idea of a mortal, limited life.

Some guy here on RRS told me that he worships God because he wants to honor his creation. I have to say, that doesn't sound too bad, but are there other good reasons to worship and believe?

god is beautiful 


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For an atheists you are

For an atheists you are surprisingly stuck on the ideas surrounding a classic Judeo Christian god.

ugzog wrote:
I would say no.

Let’s look at what god has done for the world?

You're an atheist. You can't ask this question. You may as well as what have unicorns done for this world.

 

Quote:

Do we live in a problem free paradise?

Sounds boring to me.

Quote:

Does the helpless child of the world know no hunger?

Is god required to feed a child through magic when the means to feed this child already exist within our own hands?

Quote:

The world has no true justice, few know elaborate luxury while majority have nothing.

Must god enforce justice when we are capable, though apparantly not willing, of supplying it?

Quote:

Yet both have the same chance for eternal live.

Why, because we are being punished for some ancestor denying him.


In his ultimate love he cast us out. He gives us freedom of will and desires that counter act his laws that govern us. Then he pits us against each other for his attention to get into heaven.

Let’s not forget using us as pawns in a battle between Satan and himself that we had nothing to do with!

More Judeo-Christian blah blah blah

Quote:

 

So basically god put us in thunder dome, and only the winners go to heaven.

So why would an omniscience being create a race that he knows will fail his wish to take a select few to eternal bliss?

There is no good in this god of yours.

Not my god.


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I believe in and worship my

I believe in and worship my God (NOT that God) because it makes me happy. It isn't all that noble, I know. But I could care less about the fear, pain and guilt bullshit. I worship my God because I gain something out of it: a good time. It isn't noble, sure. But it's still fun.


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I think the atrocious

I think the atrocious actions of god in the bible are grounds for much  worse than (but not excluding) automatic denial of worship, noble or not.

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Larty wrote: Some guy here

Larty wrote:

Some guy here on RRS told me that he worships God because he wants to honor his creation. I have to say, that doesn't sound too bad, but are there other good reasons to worship and believe?

I'm curious if this person also worships his parents, since they are much more directly responsible for his creation. If so, what exactly does that worship entail?


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I think a good motivation

I think a good motivation to believe in God is that it may make you happy and give you hope. Happy that you're part of something greater than yourself, hope for a better life (afterlife).

Only if it wasn't for the critical thinking and empiricism that prevent me from believing.

 

P.S. Quit bashing christianity here, it's easy to make up a better God to believe in. 

A mystic is someone who wants to understand the universe, but is too lazy to study physics.


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Dematrah wrote: I think the

Dematrah wrote:
I think the atrocious actions of god in the bible are grounds for much worse than (but not excluding) automatic denial of worship, noble or not.

 

To make this claim you have to allow for the existence of the god that committed these crimes. Since you are an atheist, you have to conclude that these things were done by humans. 


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wavefreak wrote: For an

wavefreak wrote:

For an atheists you are surprisingly stuck on the ideas surrounding a classic Judeo Christian god.

ugzog wrote:
I would say no.

Let’s look at what god has done for the world?

You're an atheist. You can't ask this question. You may as well as what have unicorns done for this world.

True, but since you asked an open question in a atheist forum, I assumed you were looking for an atheist opinion.

Quote:

Do we live in a problem free paradise?

Sounds boring to me.

Yea, it sounds boring to me too. 

 

Quote:

Does the helpless child of the world know no hunger?

Is god required to feed a child through magic when the means to feed this child already exist within our own hands?

 

Technically, everything exist within our hands Laughing

Quote:

The world has no true justice, few know elaborate luxury while majority have nothing.

Must god enforce justice when we are capable, though apparantly not willing, of supplying it?

 He seemed to like too in the old testament.

Quote:

Yet both have the same chance for eternal live.

Why, because we are being punished for some ancestor denying him.


In his ultimate love he cast us out. He gives us freedom of will and desires that counter act his laws that govern us. Then he pits us against each other for his attention to get into heaven.

 

Let’s not forget using us as pawns in a battle between Satan and himself that we had nothing to do with!

More Judeo-Christian blah blah blah

So you god is not judeo-christian?

Quote:

 

So basically god put us in thunder dome, and only the winners go to heaven.

 

So why would an omniscience being create a race that he knows will fail his wish to take a select few to eternal bliss?

 

There is no good in this god of yours.

 

 

Not my god.

 

Ok.....

Man is the only animal in all of nature that cannot accept its own mortality.


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Fish wrote:

Fish wrote:

I'm curious if this person also worships his parents, since they are much more directly responsible for his creation. If so, what exactly does that worship entail?

Ugh... I didn't mean the guy's creation. I meant GOD'S creation! My bad.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
I believe in and worship my God (NOT that God)

wavefreak wrote:

Not my god.

I don't get it. Can you guys just start believing in God and he miraculously starts to exist? If you change the way you believe in God, then God changes in the process? It's very paradoxical and very strange.

richard955 wrote:

I think a good motivation to believe in God is that it may make you happy and give you hope. Happy that you're part of something greater than yourself, hope for a better life (afterlife).

That is not a noble reason. The idea that you are part of something greater is born out of ever-growing ego. It's the inability to cope with the fact that one is just a person, and is unlikely to be of any signifigance. In the big picture of the universe we are all equal to nothing, and the belief in "something greater" is just a way to satisfy one's selfishness and ego.

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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Larty wrote: I don't get

Larty wrote:

I don't get it. Can you guys just start believing in God and he miraculously starts to exist? If you change the way you believe in God, then God changes in the process? It's very paradoxical and very strange.

 

You must be kidding. My belief does not change the nature of god. It is incumbent upon me to change my beliefs as my understanding of reality matures. Part of that understanding is understanding god. 


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Larty wrote: richard955

Larty wrote:
richard955 wrote:

I think a good motivation to believe in God is that it may make you happy and give you hope. Happy that you're part of something greater than yourself, hope for a better life (afterlife).

That is not a noble reason. The idea that you are part of something greater is born out of ever-growing ego. It's the inability to cope with the fact that one is just a person, and is unlikely to be of any signifigance. In the big picture of the universe we are all equal to nothing, and the belief in "something greater" is just a way to satisfy one's selfishness and ego.

You asked for a good motivation, and I gave you one. Of course you will not agree with it, and it's not rational. But it still is a good motivation as it helps many people cope with reality. And what exactly does 'noble' have to do with anything?

A mystic is someone who wants to understand the universe, but is too lazy to study physics.


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Larty wrote: I don't get

Larty wrote:

I don't get it. Can you guys just start believing in God and he miraculously starts to exist?

On the contrary, my dear chap. All sorts of gods and deities exist. We've merely yet to think them up.

Larty wrote:
If you change the way you believe in God, then God changes in the process? It's very paradoxical and very strange.

 God doesn't change, merely the idea of him does. The idea becomes an entirely different god (for example, if you ask a Methodist, a Mormon, and a Pentecostal all to describe god, you'll likely find that they each believe in a different god, yet they all call themselves Christians), which has always existed, however unnoticed by the human mind.

Larty wrote:

That is not a noble reason. The idea that you are part of something greater is born out of ever-growing ego. It's the inability to cope with the fact that one is just a person, and is unlikely to be of any signifigance. In the big picture of the universe we are all equal to nothing, and the belief in "something greater" is just a way to satisfy one's selfishness and ego.

What's so great about being noble anyways? What is valuable about being noble? Nothing. Besides, there is no such thing as a noble reason, if you ask me. Every single human action that you will ever see being taken is motivated by some level of self-interest. 


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I think I would need

I think I would need motivation not to believe in God. So I guess my answer is simple. It's just natural.

 


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I think that nobility can

I think that nobility can be a flexible term; but, if you're going from the text book (read as: dictionary) meaning of the word, I have a few thoughts, if not answers.

"Noble -- Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit."

From what I've seen and experienced, one of the most constant ideals that one runs across in worshiping the One True God is compassion. To yourself, to your fellow man, to the world around you and at large. I think it's fair to make the broad assumption that when you chose to worship God, you're not only doing honor to what being there may be, but also to the perfection they are believed to embody. Completely unbiased and unconditional love.

For me, to worship God is to worship (respect, honor, what have you) the idea of that love. Even if humans are incapable of acheiving it, to strive for it-- holding open that door for an older lady, sharing money with a food bank, treating even the people you dislike with respect-- is something we can all do.

... Okay, maybe that sounds a little weird. Personally, I don't believe we worship God entirely by standing in a room together and listening to the bible and singing praises. I believe that your life and how you live it is a worship in and of itself; your use of how you were created is more strong a message than songs anyone can sing or a bible that anyone could have written.

The message I hear from God is one of acceptance and love. To live your life striving simply to do what is good and fair and right and honest-- as best you may-- is a noble thing.

Or, so I feel and believe. Not an answer, but an opinion, and I hope one that offers you another view, or at least something to think on.

 

 

 

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Unknown


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wavefreak wrote: god is

wavefreak wrote:

god is beautiful

So are flowers, black holes, and most peoples mothers. 


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CrimsonEdge

CrimsonEdge wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

god is beautiful

So are flowers, black holes, and most peoples mothers.

 

I believe those things exist as well. 


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Larty wrote:

I don't get it. Can you guys just start believing in God and he miraculously starts to exist?

On the contrary, my dear chap. All sorts of gods and deities exist. We've merely yet to think them up.

Larty wrote:
If you change the way you believe in God, then God changes in the process? It's very paradoxical and very strange.

God doesn't change, merely the idea of him does. The idea becomes an entirely different god (for example, if you ask a Methodist, a Mormon, and a Pentecostal all to describe god, you'll likely find that they each believe in a different god, yet they all call themselves Christians), which has always existed, however unnoticed by the human mind.

I still have a hard time trying to understand this thought process. In my Theist times I may have understood everything you wrote here, but now I have forgotten very much.

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Every single human action that you will ever see being taken is motivated by some level of self-interest.

Yeah, I know. Can't think of anything else to say. 

 

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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wavefreak wrote: Dematrah

wavefreak wrote:

Dematrah wrote:
I think the atrocious actions of god in the bible are grounds for much worse than (but not excluding) automatic denial of worship, noble or not.

 

To make this claim you have to allow for the existence of the god that committed these crimes. Since you are an atheist, you have to conclude that these things were done by humans.

 Or not, because they are purely just stories. It isn't me that is worshipping that being from the bible, it's them. And from my observations I concluded that it isn't noble to give worship to something (however imaginary) that seriously does not deserve it.

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wavefreak wrote: You're an

wavefreak wrote:

You're an atheist. You can't ask this question. You may as well as what have unicorns done for this world.

so exactly why is it that you get to decide what questions atheists can ask? grow up.

Quote:


Is god required to feed a child through magic when the means to feed this child already exist within our own hands?

so in other words your god is useless?

Quote:


Must god enforce justice when we are capable, though apparantly not willing, of supplying it?

once again, it seems your god is useless.

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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wavefreak wrote: I believe

wavefreak wrote:
I believe those things exist as well.

But do you worship them?


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Larty

Larty wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Every single human action that you will ever see being taken is motivated by some level of self-interest.

Yeah, I know. Can't think of anything else to say.

 

Then perhaps you can answer this question: if you do not believe that a noble reason for doing anything exists, then why did you make a topic asking for noble reasons for doing something? 


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Just dropping by to remind

Just dropping by to remind everyone that this is the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum.

Please remember to keep comments respectful.

Thank you.

 

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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Larty wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Every single human action that you will ever see being taken is motivated by some level of self-interest.

Yeah, I know. Can't think of anything else to say.

Then perhaps you can answer this question: if you do not believe that a noble reason for doing anything exists, then why did you make a topic asking for noble reasons for doing something?

 You said that there is no value of being noble. In Naiveté's post noble was defined as the following:

"Noble -- Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit."

If nobility indeed has no value, then morality has also none. Let me tell you: A great deal of people respect things involved in nobility. Wheter one values it or not, wheter one's "nobility" stems from self-interest or not, a noble person still earns respect.

Besides, utilitaristically speaking, nobility aids in humanity's progression. All deeds are practically selfish, but it still is a good thing to help others, whether one values it or not.

I couldn't have written it any better than that. My language skills suck. 

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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CrimsonEdge

CrimsonEdge wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
I believe those things exist as well.

But do you worship them?

 

I don't worship god. I have a god belief that does not require  prostrate supplication. I suppose the closest metaphor would be that I follow god. 


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djneibarger

djneibarger wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

You're an atheist. You can't ask this question. You may as well as what have unicorns done for this world.

so exactly why is it that you get to decide what questions atheists can ask? grow up.

 

Puh-leeeeze. You can't recognize facetiousness? Especially coming from me?

Quote:

Is god required to feed a child through magic when the means to feed this child already exist within our own hands?

Quote:

so in other words your god is useless?

 

I suppose if I expected god to do everything for me then yes, such a god would be quite useless. But I don't expect that.

Quote:

Must god enforce justice when we are capable, though apparantly not willing, of supplying it?

Quote:

once again, it seems your god is useless.

I suppose if I expected god to do everything for me then yes, such a god would be quite useless. But I don't expect that.

Do I hear an echo?

 


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wavefreak

wavefreak wrote:

Quote:

Does the helpless child of the world know no hunger?

Is god required to feed a child through magic when the means to feed this child already exist within our own hands?

Solving world hunger hasn't always been a problem that was within our grasp.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


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Quote:

Quote:
I was wondering if there are noble reasons to believe in, and worship God.

Is beleiving in santa noble? Is believing in the tooth fairy noble? The idea of giving without expectation is noble, but name me one diety that doesnt expect payback?

Superstition expects payback, reality expects nothing while rationality does it's best.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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wavefreak

wavefreak wrote:
CrimsonEdge wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
I believe those things exist as well.

But do you worship them?

 

I don't worship god. I have a god belief that does not require prostrate supplication. I suppose the closest metaphor would be that I follow god.

How does he lead you?  

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote: wavefreak

jcgadfly wrote:
wavefreak wrote:
CrimsonEdge wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
I believe those things exist as well.

But do you worship them?

 

I don't worship god. I have a god belief that does not require prostrate supplication. I suppose the closest metaphor would be that I follow god.

How does he lead you?

 

Since I was speaking metaphorically you shouldn't take so literally.

To offer yet another metaphor, I am a charged particle migrating towards an opposite charge. 


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Funny, Funny Stuff

Wavefreak:

I just wanted to drop you a quick note to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts and especially your response to djneibarger.

I can only shake my head and chuckle at this incredibly naive notion some atheists have that because the God we believe in is who He is, somehow everything should be perfect.

No crime - no starvation - no hungry children - no mosquito bites - no toothaches - no bad hair days - etc.

And if somehow things aren't perfect - a planet full of Stepford wives and husbands and dogs and cats and blah-blah -blah - then our God is somehow a "screw up" and useless.

Funny, funny stuff..!!!!


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Larty

Larty wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:
Larty wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Every single human action that you will ever see being taken is motivated by some level of self-interest.

Yeah, I know. Can't think of anything else to say.

Then perhaps you can answer this question: if you do not believe that a noble reason for doing anything exists, then why did you make a topic asking for noble reasons for doing something?

You said that there is no value of being noble. In Naiveté's post noble was defined as the following:

"Noble -- Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit."

If nobility indeed has no value, then morality has also none.

Yes, I agree.

Quote:
Let me tell you: A great deal of people respect things involved in nobility. Wheter one values it or not, wheter one's "nobility" stems from self-interest or not, a noble person still earns respect.

My whole point was that anything motivated from self-interest oughtn't be considered noble.

Quote:
Besides, utilitaristically speaking, nobility aids in humanity's progression. All deeds are practically selfish, but it still is a good thing to help others, whether one values it or not.

I couldn't have written it any better than that. My language skills suck.

I'm afraid that you didn't really answer my question. You agreed with me that there are no truly noble reasons for doing anything? If that is the case, then why did you make a topic asking for noble reasons to do something?


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rowdyyates2u

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Wavefreak: I just wanted to drop you a quick note to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts and especially your response to djneibarger. I can only shake my head and chuckle at this incredibly naive notion some atheists have that because the God we believe in is who He is, somehow everything should be perfect. No crime - no starvation - no hungry children - no mosquito bites - no toothaches - no bad hair days - etc. And if somehow things aren't perfect - a planet full of Stepford wives and husbands and dogs and cats and blah-blah -blah - then our God is somehow a "screw up" and useless. Funny, funny stuff..!!!!

I find it rather humorous that theists are willing to worship and revere a god who clearly has a terrible cruel streak.  I can't even imagine revolving my life to cater to a supernatural diety who threatens me with eternal torture for trivial things.  Sounds more like an abusive relationship than a loving one, imo. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Wavefreak: I just wanted to drop you a quick note to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts and especially your response to djneibarger. I can only shake my head and chuckle at this incredibly naive notion some atheists have that because the God we believe in is who He is, somehow everything should be perfect. No crime - no starvation - no hungry children - no mosquito bites - no toothaches - no bad hair days - etc. And if somehow things aren't perfect - a planet full of Stepford wives and husbands and dogs and cats and blah-blah -blah - then our God is somehow a "screw up" and useless. Funny, funny stuff..!!!!

I find it rather humorous that theists are willing to worship and revere a god who clearly has a terrible cruel streak.  I can't even imagine revolving my life to cater to a supernatural diety who threatens me with eternal torture for trivial things.  Sounds more like an abusive relationship than a loving one, imo. 

Firstly, thanks for your response.

I'm really sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Terrible cruel streak...???

Threatens me with eternal torture for trivial things..??

Abusive relationship..???

I can't recall a single instance in my life where the God I believe in has ever "personally" exhibited a terrible cruel streak. Or threatened me. Or abused me in some way.

Seriously, what are you talking about..??


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rowdyyates2u wrote:  I'm

rowdyyates2u wrote:
  I'm really sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Terrible cruel streak...??? Threatens me with eternal torture for trivial things..?? Abusive relationship..??? I can't recall a single instance in my life where the God I believe in has ever "personally" exhibited a terrible cruel streak. Or threatened me. Or abused me in some way. Do you actaully believe the stuff you've written..?? I guess our God is one hell of a salesman - he has this incredible cruel streak, abuses people and tyhreatens them with eternal torture for trivial things - and 90% of the world believes and loves "HIM". Yikes, that's one hell of a mind disorder we suffer from..!!

Of course I don't believe what I wrote; I don't believe in god.

From what I've read of the bible, god isn't exactly a wonderful loving entity.  I cannot give you specific examples at this moment since I don't have my bible with me. 

Just because the marjority of people believe something doesn't make it right or true. 

I am assuming we are speaking about the Christian god.  If this is not the god you believe in, my apologies.  I'm speaking only of the Christian god.

{EDIT - clarification}

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

rowdyyates2u wrote:
I'm really sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Terrible cruel streak...??? Threatens me with eternal torture for trivial things..?? Abusive relationship..??? I can't recall a single instance in my life where the God I believe in has ever "personally" exhibited a terrible cruel streak. Or threatened me. Or abused me in some way. Do you actaully believe the stuff you've written..?? I guess our God is one hell of a salesman - he has this incredible cruel streak, abuses people and tyhreatens them with eternal torture for trivial things - and 90% of the world believes and loves "HIM". Yikes, that's one hell of a mind disorder we suffer from..!!

Of course I don't believe what I wrote; I don't believe in god.

From what I've read of the bible, god isn't exactly a wonderful loving entity. I cannot give you specific examples at this moment since I don't have my bible with me.

Just because the marjority of people believe something doesn't make it right or true.

I am assuming we are speaking about the Christian god. If this is not the god you believe in, my apologies. I'm speaking only of the Christian god.

{EDIT - clarification}

I never said that because 90% of the world believes in something, it makes it right, did I..?? And if God doesn't exist, then a non-existent entity can't very well have a terrible cruel streak nor threaten anybody with eternal torture for trivial things or contribute to an abusive relationship, can HE..?? You might as well be saying that pink unicorns have a terrible cruel streak and blah - blah -blah. Like I said at the outset, I really have no idea what you're talking about - but on the surface, you seem to enjoy having your cake and eating it too - i.e. this ENTITY that doesn't exist is cruel and enjoys torturing people and is abusive..!! Funny, funny stuff..!!!

{Edit - fixed quotes} 


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Pariahjane: I've screwed up

Pariahjane:

I've screwed up the formatting in the previous response, so I'll "paste" the response again so perhaps it's clearer.

I never said that because 90% of the world believes in something, it makes it right, did I..??

And if God doesn't exist, then a non-existent entity can't very well have a terrible cruel streak nor threaten anybody with eternal torture for trivial things or contribute to an abusive relationship, can HE..??

You might as well be saying that pink unicorns have a terrible cruel streak and blah - blah -blah.

Like I said at the outset, I really have no idea what you're talking about - but on the surface, you seem to enjoy having your cake and eating it too - i.e. this ENTITY that doesn't exist is cruel and enjoys torturing people and is abusive..!!

Funny, funny stuff..!!!


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rowdyyates2u wrote: I

rowdyyates2u wrote:
I never said that because 90% of the world believes in something, it makes it right, did I..??

I never said you did.  You made reference to 90% of people believing in god and I was just pointing out that doesn't make their belief correct.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
And if God doesn't exist, then a non-existent entity can't very well have a terrible cruel streak nor threaten anybody with eternal torture for trivial things or contribute to an abusive relationship, can HE..?? You might as well be saying that pink unicorns have a terrible cruel streak and blah - blah -blah.

Obviously.  As I said before, I'm taking my opinion from what I've read in the bible regarding the Christian god.  I never said I believed the stories were true.  It's hypothetical. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Like I said at the outset, I really have no idea what you're talking about - but on the surface, you seem to enjoy having your cake and eating it too - i.e. this ENTITY that doesn't exist is cruel and enjoys torturing people and is abusive..!! Funny, funny stuff..!!!

Now I have no idea what you're talking about.  I suppose you need a little clarification.  I never said god exists.  I was speaking in hypotheticals.  I'm not quite sure how they makes me 'having my cake and eating it too'.

If you'd like to continue this conversation, perhaps you should open a new thread so we don't hijack this one. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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So let me see if I fully

So let me see if I fully understand where you're coming from.

There's this entity that you don't believe exists called God. It's just a figment of the imagination of 90% of the world's population.

But this entity that doesn't really exist is supposedly responsible for torturing alot of people over trivial things / abusing them in their relationships and demonstrating a cruel streak.

But none of these above things have really occured because it's not real - just hypothetical..!! After all, how could these thing be real - the entity that supposedly is causing them to happen doesn't exist.

So which part of the above am I unclear about..??

If you want to create a new thread to discuss this, you're the ranking member here so please feel free to do so - but I don't see the point. I think we would just go around and around in circles and just come back to where we began.

I believe - you don't - I can't prove my position and I can't disprove your position and you can't prove your position and you can't disprove mine.

I believe The Beatles were the greatest band ever - my brother believes that distinction goes to the Rolling Stones.

How can I "prove" that The Beatles were the best band ever. ??

Who's right - who's wrong.??


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rowdyyates2u wrote: And if

rowdyyates2u wrote:

And if God doesn't exist, then a non-existent entity can't very well have a terrible cruel streak nor threaten anybody with eternal torture for trivial things or contribute to an abusive relationship, can HE..?? You might as well be saying that pink unicorns have a terrible cruel streak and blah - blah -blah.

If there was a book written about pink unicorns that included passages detailing cruel, inhumane acts and people chose to worship the pink unicorn then the same statements WOULD apply.

Theists are the ones that believe in this type of god and it is up to them to define the motivation for doing so as asked in the original post. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Like I said at the outset, I really have no idea what you're talking about - but on the surface, you seem to enjoy having your cake and eating it too - i.e. this ENTITY that doesn't exist is cruel and enjoys torturing people and is abusive..!! Funny, funny stuff..!!!

{Edit - fixed quotes}

Well, that is the god protrayed in the bible.  If you worship a different one, then perhaps you would like to define him/her for us.  The majority (not all) of the theists that visit this site are Christians so many of us work under the assumption that is the god being referenced.  Again, if yours is different, please define it for us so that productive discussion can continue.

 

I will pre-empt Susan  (Wink) and remind everyone that this is the KILL 'EM WITH KINDNESS THREAD - No ad homs, no profanity.  Play nice. 


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rowdyyates2u wrote: So let

rowdyyates2u wrote:
So let me see if I fully understand where you're coming from. There's this entity that you don't believe exists called God. It's just a figment of the imagination of 90% of the world's population.

I see no evidence for any diety or entity.  You're correct, more or less.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But this entity that doesn't really exist is supposedly responsible for torturing alot of people over trivial things / abusing them in their relationships and demonstrating a cruel streak.

Obviously something that doesn't exist couldn't do these things.  I don't think any of the stories of bible actually happened. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But none of these above things have really occured because it's not real - just hypothetical..!! After all, how could these thing be real - the entity that supposedly is causing them to happen doesn't exist. So which part of the above am I unclear about..??

That's correct.  I see no evidence that the acts in the bible ever occurred.  

However, some Christians do believe the bible is literal and true.  God's done some pretty awful things according to the bible.  Yet people still worship him.  That's what I find ironic. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
 If you want to create a new thread to discuss this, you're the ranking member here so please feel free to do so - but I don't see the point. I think we would just go around and around in circles and just come back to where we began. I believe - you don't - I can't prove my position and I can't disprove your position and you can't prove your position and you can't disprove mine. I believe The Beatles were the greatest band ever - my brother believes that distinction goes to the Rolling Stones. How can I "prove" that The Beatles were the best band ever. ?? Who's right - who's wrong.??

If I had wanted to, I already would have done so.  The topic was broached by you, so I threw out the suggestion. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:

rowdyyates2u wrote:
So let me see if I fully understand where you're coming from. There's this entity that you don't believe exists called God. It's just a figment of the imagination of 90% of the world's population.

I see no evidence for any diety or entity.  You're correct, more or less.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But this entity that doesn't really exist is supposedly responsible for torturing alot of people over trivial things / abusing them in their relationships and demonstrating a cruel streak.

Obviously something that doesn't exist couldn't do these things.  I don't think any of the stories of bible actually happened. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But none of these above things have really occured because it's not real - just hypothetical..!! After all, how could these thing be real - the entity that supposedly is causing them to happen doesn't exist. So which part of the above am I unclear about..??

That's correct.  I see no evidence that the acts in the bible ever occurred.  

However, some Christians do believe the bible is literal and true.  God's done some pretty awful things according to the bible.  Yet people still worship him.  That's what I find ironic. 

rowdyyates2u wrote:
 If you want to create a new thread to discuss this, you're the ranking member here so please feel free to do so - but I don't see the point. I think we would just go around and around in circles and just come back to where we began. I believe - you don't - I can't prove my position and I can't disprove your position and you can't prove your position and you can't disprove mine. I believe The Beatles were the greatest band ever - my brother believes that distinction goes to the Rolling Stones. How can I "prove" that The Beatles were the best band ever. ?? Who's right - who's wrong.??

If I had wanted to, I already would have done so.  The topic was broached by you, so I threw out the suggestion. 

I'm sorry, pariahjane, but when you really stop and think about it for a moment, this is really a very, very humourous situation - at least from my perspective.

If I'm understanding this correctly, You don't believe in this Christian thing called God and this Christian book called the Bible is essentially a complete work of fiction.

In this fictitious book, the fictitious main character - God - has a mean streak / tortures people for all eternity over trivial things and is very abusive.

Of course, none of these things are true or ever really happened because it's all make believe.

But you and many, many others here enjoy posting hundreds / thousands of messages each day / week writing about this fictitious character and this fictitious book as if it was real. 

Conversely,  the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible. Now because I'm a believer, I'm the one who should feel afraid - after all, I believe. However, despite the fact that I've been a believer my entire life, I can honestly say that I have  NEVER felt abused nor seen a cruel, mean  exhibited by this entity that I believe in and, to the best of my knowledge, I have never personally been threatened with torture for all eternity for something trivial that I've done or may do.

As I said, when you really stop to think about the above, it's really very funny..!!! 

Anyways, thanks for the exchange of opinions.


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Quote: However, despite the

Quote:
However, despite the fact that I've been a believer my entire life, I can honestly say that I have  NEVER felt abused nor seen a cruel, mean  exhibited by this entity that I believe in and, to the best of my knowledge, I have never personally been threatened with torture for all eternity for something trivial that I've done or may do.

And why is that?


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rowdyyates2u wrote:

rowdyyates2u wrote:

I'm sorry, pariahjane, but when you really stop and think about it for a moment, this is really a very, very humourous situation - at least from my perspective.

Actually, I have been watching these posts back and forth and I do not see why her responses were "humorous". She was stating her opinion about why it's hard to fathom THEISTS would worship such a god. but let's continue on and see where you take this line of reasoning.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, You don't believe in this Christian thing called God and this Christian book called the Bible is essentially a complete work of fiction.

In this fictitious book, the fictitious main character - God - has a mean streak / tortures people for all eternity over trivial things and is very abusive.

Again, she stated she could not understand why THEISTS would worship such a god. Here is a quote of her first statement to you.

pariahjane wrote:
I find it rather humorous that theists are willing to worship and revere a god who clearly has a terrible cruel streak.

Yes, she thinks it's mythology. The question is what motivations are there to believe in god, she responded in kind regarding the difficulty some of us have understanding why THEISTS would worship a cruel mythological character such as the one depicted in the bible. These are the same qualms many of us have about Mohammad of the Quran or Ares of Greek mythology. They are all rather vile characters with little substance worthy of worship.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Of course, none of these things are true or ever really happened because it's all make believe.

This is a very true statement.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But you and many, many others here enjoy posting hundreds / thousands of messages each day / week writing about this fictitious character and this fictitious book as if it was real.

Because of the ill effects such mythology has on society, scientific knowledge and politics.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible.

This is an argument ad populum, and as such is not a very sound basis for logical reasoning. With this type of reasoning, I can make the following statement and you must also agree it is true.

"There are also billions that believe the Quran, that makes it just as true as your holy bible."

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Now because I'm a believer, I'm the one who should feel afraid - after all, I believe. However, despite the fact that I've been a believer my entire life, I can honestly say that I have NEVER felt abused nor seen a cruel, mean exhibited by this entity that I believe in and, to the best of my knowledge, I have never personally been threatened with torture for all eternity for something trivial that I've done or may do.

There are two possible reasons you have not seen the cruelness displayed by your diety.

  1. You have not read the ENTIRE bible.
  2. You have read the bible and you chose to ignore the parts where your god either condoned or committed murder, rape, blood sacrifice, genocide, persecution of gays, subjugation of women, stoning of unruly children, mauling of children for teasing a bald man, or any of the other many violent and uncivilized acts contained therein.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
As I said, when you really stop to think about the above, it's really very funny..!!!

Anyways, thanks for the exchange of opinions.

This is the same snide remark you have repeated how amused you are by the fact that someone looks at your holy text objectively and discerns a cruel bully instead of a loving deity. Maybe, just maybe, some of us have thought about this so called 'holy book' and the deity described on the blood soaked pages and came to a different conclusion than you. This seems like a rather difficult pill for you to swallow and in your responses the irritation shows.

What you have not done is present a valid argument to believe in such a deity.

 


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BGH wrote:rowdyyates2u

BGH wrote:
rowdyyates2u wrote:

I'm sorry, pariahjane, but when you really stop and think about it for a moment, this is really a very, very humourous situation - at least from my perspective.

Actually, I have been watching these posts back and forth and I do not see why her responses were "humorous". She was stating her opinion about why it's hard to fathom THEISTS would worship such a god. but let's continue on and see where you take this line of reasoning.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, You don't believe in this Christian thing called God and this Christian book called the Bible is essentially a complete work of fiction.

In this fictitious book, the fictitious main character - God - has a mean streak / tortures people for all eternity over trivial things and is very abusive.

Again, she stated she could not understand why THEISTS would worship such a god. Here is a quote of her first statement to you.

pariahjane wrote:
I find it rather humorous that theists are willing to worship and revere a god who clearly has a terrible cruel streak.

Yes, she thinks it's mythology. The question is what motivations are there to believe in god, she responded in kind regarding the difficulty some of us have understanding why THEISTS would worship a cruel mythological character such as the one depicted in the bible. These are the same qualms many of us have about Mohammad of the Quran or Ares of Greek mythology. They are all rather vile characters with little substance worthy of worship.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Of course, none of these things are true or ever really happened because it's all make believe.

This is a very true statement.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But you and many, many others here enjoy posting hundreds / thousands of messages each day / week writing about this fictitious character and this fictitious book as if it was real.

Because of the ill effects such mythology has on society, scientific knowledge and politics.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible.

This is an argument ad populum, and as such is not a very sound basis for logical reasoning. With this type of reasoning, I can make the following statement and you must also agree it is true.

"There are also billions that believe the Quran, that makes it just as true as your holy bible."

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Now because I'm a believer, I'm the one who should feel afraid - after all, I believe. However, despite the fact that I've been a believer my entire life, I can honestly say that I have NEVER felt abused nor seen a cruel, mean exhibited by this entity that I believe in and, to the best of my knowledge, I have never personally been threatened with torture for all eternity for something trivial that I've done or may do.

There are two possible reasons you have not seen the cruelness displayed by your diety.

  1. You have not read the ENTIRE bible.
  2. You have read the bible and you chose to ignore the parts where your god either condoned or committed murder, rape, blood sacrifice, genocide, persecution of gays, subjugation of women, stoning of unruly children, mauling of children for teasing a bald man, or any of the other many violent and uncivilized acts contained therein.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
As I said, when you really stop to think about the above, it's really very funny..!!!

Anyways, thanks for the exchange of opinions.

This is the same snide remark you have repeated how amused you are by the fact that someone looks at your holy text objectively and discerns a cruel bully instead of a loving deity. Maybe, just maybe, some of us have thought about this so called 'holy book' and the deity described on the blood soaked pages and came to a different conclusion than you. This seems like a rather difficult pill for you to swallow and in your responses the irritation shows.

What you have not done is present a valid argument to believe in such a deity.

Right from the "get-go", despite the FACT that I stated it about as obviously as I could, you still get it wrong.

NOWHERE did I say I find her responses humourous - if you actually took the time to read  what I've written, I said that I find the SITUATION  humourous..!!

 But instead, you make an assumption and off you go - I know you're a high level moderator and probably very knowledgeable about this stuff, I'm sorry, but I never even bothered reading the rest of your response after I saw your opening comment..!


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rowdyyates2u wrote: But

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But instead, you make an assumption and off you go - I know you're a high level moderator and probably very knowledgeable about this stuff, I'm sorry, but I never even bothered reading the rest of your response after I saw your opening comment..!

First off, this is intellectually dishonest and a poor way to have a real dialog. You may not agree with what others have to say here but if you are going to ignore posts what is the point of being here? Are you here just to antagonize and tell members you find their opinions laughable?

I believe you are ignoring or glossing over what the other users are posting because you cannot refute it so you are simply mocking them.

This particular forum is "Kill Em' With Kindness", you are supposed to be playing nice and having a discussion. If you are going to continue this attitude please cease from posting in this portion of the website and stick to the 'no holds barred' forums. Thank you.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
NOWHERE did I say I find her responses humourous - if you actually took the time to read what I've written, I said that I find the SITUATION humourous..!!

Let me see if I was mistaken about your comments...

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Funny, funny stuff..!!!

rowdyyates2u wrote:
As I said, when you really stop to think about the above, it's really very funny..!!!

You are right, you called the situation humorous and referred to her opinions as "funny, funny stuff" after purposefully rewording her position to make a mockery of it.

She clearly stated she could not understand why theists would worship a god that appears from an objective standpoint to be very cruel. You went on to twist her words into this:

rowdyyates2u wrote:
There's this entity that you don't believe exists called God. It's just a figment of the imagination of 90% of the world's population.

But this entity that doesn't really exist is supposedly responsible for torturing alot of people over trivial things / abusing them in their relationships and demonstrating a cruel streak.

But none of these above things have really occured because it's not real - just hypothetical..!! After all, how could these thing be real - the entity that supposedly is causing them to happen doesn't exist.

She does not need to have a belief in god to feel that the character depicted in the bible was cruel. That was clearly her statement.

 

Now, I am going to restate this one more time. Because this is "Kill Em' With Kindness" please lose the attitude. I suggest you read the posts of others and give your evidence of why you may have a different opinion, but refrain from mocking others with strawman arguments.

Here is a definition in case you are unaware of the terminology.

Straw man

The straw man fallacy is when you misrepresent someone else's position so that it can be attacked more easily, knock down that misrepresented position, then conclude that the original position has been demolished. It's a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been made.

 

Now, kindly go back and read my first response to you, I would love to see you address some of the points.

 

 


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BGH wrote:rowdyyates2u

BGH wrote:
rowdyyates2u wrote:

I'm sorry, pariahjane, but when you really stop and think about it for a moment, this is really a very, very humourous situation - at least from my perspective.

Actually, I have been watching these posts back and forth and I do not see why her responses were "humorous". She was stating her opinion about why it's hard to fathom THEISTS would worship such a god. but let's continue on and see where you take this line of reasoning.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
If I'm understanding this correctly, You don't believe in this Christian thing called God and this Christian book called the Bible is essentially a complete work of fiction.

In this fictitious book, the fictitious main character - God - has a mean streak / tortures people for all eternity over trivial things and is very abusive.

Again, she stated she could not understand why THEISTS would worship such a god. Here is a quote of her first statement to you.

pariahjane wrote:
I find it rather humorous that theists are willing to worship and revere a god who clearly has a terrible cruel streak.

Yes, she thinks it's mythology. The question is what motivations are there to believe in god, she responded in kind regarding the difficulty some of us have understanding why THEISTS would worship a cruel mythological character such as the one depicted in the bible. These are the same qualms many of us have about Mohammad of the Quran or Ares of Greek mythology. They are all rather vile characters with little substance worthy of worship.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Of course, none of these things are true or ever really happened because it's all make believe.

This is a very true statement.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
But you and many, many others here enjoy posting hundreds / thousands of messages each day / week writing about this fictitious character and this fictitious book as if it was real.

Because of the ill effects such mythology has on society, scientific knowledge and politics.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible.

This is an argument ad populum, and as such is not a very sound basis for logical reasoning. With this type of reasoning, I can make the following statement and you must also agree it is true.

"There are also billions that believe the Quran, that makes it just as true as your holy bible."

rowdyyates2u wrote:
Now because I'm a believer, I'm the one who should feel afraid - after all, I believe. However, despite the fact that I've been a believer my entire life, I can honestly say that I have NEVER felt abused nor seen a cruel, mean exhibited by this entity that I believe in and, to the best of my knowledge, I have never personally been threatened with torture for all eternity for something trivial that I've done or may do.

There are two possible reasons you have not seen the cruelness displayed by your diety.

  1. You have not read the ENTIRE bible.
  2. You have read the bible and you chose to ignore the parts where your god either condoned or committed murder, rape, blood sacrifice, genocide, persecution of gays, subjugation of women, stoning of unruly children, mauling of children for teasing a bald man, or any of the other many violent and uncivilized acts contained therein.

rowdyyates2u wrote:
As I said, when you really stop to think about the above, it's really very funny..!!!

Anyways, thanks for the exchange of opinions.

This is the same snide remark you have repeated how amused you are by the fact that someone looks at your holy text objectively and discerns a cruel bully instead of a loving deity. Maybe, just maybe, some of us have thought about this so called 'holy book' and the deity described on the blood soaked pages and came to a different conclusion than you. This seems like a rather difficult pill for you to swallow and in your responses the irritation shows.

What you have not done is present a valid argument to believe in such a deity.

 

 You want me to stop being "intelllectually dishonest" and engage in a honest dialogue with you.

 OK - let's do that..!! But before we do, I need to hear your explanation re the following.

In one of my posts, I stated the following:

" Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible."

Your response was as follows:

 "This is an argument ad populum, and as such is not a very sound basis for logical reasoning."

PLEASE, I would like you to explain to me - and for everybody else who's taking the time to read these posts -  how a simple statement of FACT is an ad populum argument.

Again, the EXACT comment was "Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible".

 Looking forward to your response..!! 


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rowdyyates2u wrote: Again,

rowdyyates2u wrote:

Again, the EXACT comment was "Conversely, the world is full of people like me who believe in this fictitious character and the fictitious book called the Bible".

Looking forward to your response..!!

Thank you for ignoring everything else addressed and focusing on one sentence, maybe I will try this tactic with your next post.

If you are you using the above argument to state that because a large number of people believe christianity then it must not be fiction and therefore is true, that is the logical fallacy, argument ad populum.

Just because a large number of the populus may believe something does not mean to infer it must be truthful. There are almost as many muslims on earth as there are christians, does that infer the Quran is also correct? Surely, you believe your religion is the ONE true one, correct?

Let's look at this another way, at one time nearly every human being on earth thought our planet was the center on the universe, so much so that anyone who challenged that axiom was prosecuted as a heretic. Because the majority of people believed this does it mean it is true? No, not in the least.

Or how about this scenario, at one time it was believed by most everyone that evil spirits and demon possession led to disease and affliction, today we know it is bacteria and viral infection that causes these things.

Again the number of people that believe a thing, does not necessarily make that thing true or false. You just cannot use an argument ad populum as the cornerstone of your defense because it alone does not prove anything. You see?

 

 


LosingStreak06
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BGH wrote: If you are you

BGH wrote:

If you are you using the above argument to state that because a large number of people believe christianity then it must not be fiction and therefore is true, that is the logical fallacy, argument ad populum.

Except that I'm pretty sure he wasn't. So I'm pretty sure it isn't.


rowdyyates2u
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Mind boggling - absolutely

Mind boggling - absolutely mind boggling.

I make a very simple statement that alot of people like myself believe in this ficitious entity called God and this fictitious book called the Bible. I made a simple statement.

I NEVER said that it makes me right - I NEVER said that just because alot of people believe in something that it must be true. I simply said that alot of people believe in God and a book called the Bible.

It was a nice sunny, warm day today ("Gee, what does he really mean by that statement - I bet you that he's putting down countries like England, for example, that get alot of cool, overcast days - yeah, that's it, he can't really mean that it's a nice sunny day  where he lives- it must have a more sinister meeting..!!&quotEye-wink

 

I think I'll pass on the "intellectual discussion' with you - it's pretty apparent from your responses that you're either not reading my comments or you just assume that because I say ABC, I must really mean XYZ.

Let's just say you have all the answers - I have none of them and welll leave it at that..!!  

And you wonder why I find this site so humourous..!!