If God isn't Omnibenevolent...

jackal
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If God isn't Omnibenevolent...

I'm talking to a Catholic who claims that God is omnipotent and omniscient, but not omnibenevolent - hence, no problem of evil, no problem with eternal torment, etc.  Let's assume the Catholic is right.  If God isn't omnibenevolent, how do we know that God won't lie to us?


LosingStreak06
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Personally speaking, my God

Personally speaking, my God can't lie, because It cannot speak.

As for the Christian God, I would guess that if he isn't omnibenevolent, then we can't know if he's lying or not. On the other hand, how could anyone know that he was omnibenevolent to begin with? 


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Hopefully, if God were lying

Hopefully, if God were lying to you, your bullstuff detector would explode.

 

(mod edit - this is Kill Em' With Kindness, no cursing allowed) 

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wavefreak
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Weird. I suppose we

Weird. I suppose we wouldn't know when god lied to us. Maybe god would lie to us if it was for our own good. I think Jehovah's Witnesses have a doctrine that allows lying in order to convert someone.

Then there is this:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (New International Version)
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

And here is an intersting thread on the concept: 

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/850624.html 


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wavefreak wrote: Weird. I

wavefreak wrote:

Weird. I suppose we wouldn't know when god lied to us. Maybe god would lie to us if it was for our own good. I think Jehovah's Witnesses have a doctrine that allows lying in order to convert someone.

Then there is this:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (New International Version)
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

And here is an intersting thread on the concept: 

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/850624.html 


That's a kind and Godly thing to do if I've ever heard of one...


Cassiopeia
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Cassiopeia

Cassiopeia wrote:

Hopefully, if God were lying to you, your bullstuff detector would explode.

 

(mod edit - this is Kill Em' With Kindness, no cursing allowed)

My bad.

I suck at signatures.


ShaunPhilly
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I think this idea fits in

I think this idea fits in with what has been terms 'maltheism.'  I have not spent any time talking with these strange people who believe god exists but is an a....not a nice personn...but they seem like an interesting bunch.

Shaun 

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ShaunPhilly wrote: I think

ShaunPhilly wrote:

I think this idea fits in with what has been terms 'maltheism.' I have not spent any time talking with these strange people who believe god exists but is an a....not a nice personn...but they seem like an interesting bunch.

Shaun

This is an interesting concept.  On my journey toward atheism I counted the evil that happens as a "con" when it came to the existence of a deity.  I was probably influenced by the mindset of people like Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.  Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.  Is he both able and willing?  Then whence cometh evil?  Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"  -Epicurus

A malevolent god is not to be worshipped. 

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Reminds me of the riddle in

Reminds me of the riddle in Labyrynth...

Anyway,

IF god = omnipotent + omniscient and NOT omnibenevolent THEN any knowledge of god is unknowable, including his capability to lie.  We are left with complete incoherence.

In other words, this whole idea is completely unfalsifiable, and anyone claiming it to be true contradicts himself.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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If god is defined (among

If god is defined (among other things) as being worthy of worship, this person's god is not god.


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Say what you will...

You can say that this god is not God, or not worthy of worship, but it is worshipped. My conversations with that Catholic and two Mormons today confirms that. I wanted to know if there was any logical reason to believe that, even if it is the "inspired word of God," God isn't lying in part or all of the Bible.


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jackal wrote: You can say

jackal wrote:
You can say that this god is not God, or not worthy of worship, but it is worshipped. My conversations with that Catholic and two Mormons today confirms that. I wanted to know if there was any logical reason to believe that, even if it is the "inspired word of God," God isn't lying in part or all of the Bible.

Those who worship something that should not be worshipped are simply making a mistake, then. I don't see your point.

I agree with your original point though. If god is amoral, he has no compunction against lying or for telling the truth. Everything he "says" should then be suspect.


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Given that there's no

Given that there's no evidence for God, there's no reason why God couldn't be Satan in disguise and all of religion a trick to fool people away from the True Path tm. In fact, given the immorality of religion it would seem to be the most likely scenario.

 

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Tilberian wrote: Given

Tilberian wrote:

Given that there's no evidence for God, there's no reason why God couldn't be Satan in disguise and all of religion a trick to fool people away from the True Path tm. In fact, given the immorality of religion it would seem to be the most likely scenario.

 

If god was Satan wouldn't that imply the existence of a counterpart benevolent god? 


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wavefreak wrote: If god

wavefreak wrote:

If god was Satan wouldn't that imply the existence of a counterpart benevolent god?

Not at all. Satan could be the one and only Ultimate Power in the universe.

However it is amusing to contemplate a God that has bowed out of human affairs (perhaps to allow us Free Will...but that's another broken concept) gnashing his teeth as he watches Satan lead the world's believers into eternal damnation using His own good name. 

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wavefreak
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Tilberian wrote:

Tilberian wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

If god was Satan wouldn't that imply the existence of a counterpart benevolent god?

Not at all. Satan could be the one and only Ultimate Power in the universe.

However it is amusing to contemplate a God that has bowed out of human affairs (perhaps to allow us Free Will...but that's another broken concept) gnashing his teeth as he watches Satan lead the world's believers into eternal damnation using His own good name.

So if god is at the proverbial top of the heap, entity wise, does that make him an atheist? And furthermore, since emulation of god is supposedly a good thing, should we all be atheists?


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wavefreak wrote: So if god

wavefreak wrote:

So if god is at the proverbial top of the heap, entity wise, does that make him an atheist? And furthermore, since emulation of god is supposedly a good thing, should we all be atheists?

Let me put it this way: if there is a God, he was careful to leave no evidence of himself in this world. He has been careful to construct a perfectly coherent natural order that suffers nothing for his lack of involvement. Then he gave us the ability to understand and reason about that world. As creatures of this natural order, it would seem to be his desire that we use our reasoning abilities and draw the conclusion that he's not there. So, yes, a good theist should be an atheist!

 

 

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ShaunPhilly wrote: I think

ShaunPhilly wrote:

I think this idea fits in with what has been terms 'maltheism.' I have not spent any time talking with these strange people who believe god exists but is an a....not a nice person...but they seem like an interesting bunch.

lol!

 

One would have to wonder why an all powerful, all intelligent being would not be omnibenevolent, particularly to beings infinitely less powerful and infinitely less intelligent....

 

*************************************

Think of the most mature person you know: think how quick they are to forgive, how slow they are to get angry... think of how little there is that really annoys them.

Then multiply this by infinity.

Then compare this compassionate, intelligent, loving conceptualization you now have in your mind to 'Yahweh'

Ridiculous, right? 

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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