Is the Christian god internally contradictory?

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Is the Christian god internally contradictory?

Assuming that the following quote taken from http://apologetics.johndepoe.com/hell.html is true and accurately represents the Christian faith...

Quote:
A second misconception has to do with how one is "sent" to hell. Often objectors claim that God randomly picks people to be damned as if on a whim. Additionally, they envision that the one sent to hell is absolutely innocent in the matter and had nothing to do with the outcome. On the contrary, Christians have long held that hell is a choice that is made by the one who arrives there (e.g., in Matt. 7:13-14 Jesus says those who choose the broad path walk to destruction). Essentially, then, God does not send people to hell. Rather, people send themselves.


Christians, how can people send themselves to Hell if God already knows who is predestined to Heaven or Hell? If God created everything, it seems then he also knowingly created people who will be going to Hell. This appears to be a fundamental contradiction in the Christian idea of "God," as further detailed by todangst's investigation on God's "Incoherence of the Second Sort - Internal Contradiction" (if I am understanding him correctly):

http://www.rationalresponders.com/god_is_an_incoherent_term

More specifically, todangst argues that:

Quote:
Well it ought to be, in fact, it must be so, if in fact this 'judge of rightousness' requires an awareness of his existence as part of salvation. Yet, how can we reconcile the idea of a just and good creator who judges his creation for being precisely as he created to be? An omnipotent, omniscient creator (leaving aside that contradictin) must necessarily be the ultimate sufficient cause of every action and every passion of every human (indeed, even the cause of the existence of action and passion). Such a creator is therefore, necessarily, a perfectly responsible creator.


Quote:
So, if this perfectly responsible creator, which is necessarily perfectly responsible for every parameter of existence being precisely as it is, judges his own creation and finds it wanting, what can a sane person call this but a mockery of justice, a clear contradiction? And, furthermore, if the said 'judgement' (and we can no longer properly call it judgment) leads to an infinite torture of infinite intensity and infinite duration, what can we call this but the ultimate expression of evil?


This contradiction is further exacerbated when we realize that if unrepented sinners, whom are deemed evil by God (pending repenting), go to Hell, then God not only knowingly created people who will be going to Hell, but He also knowingly created evil (since people in Hell are PROVEN to be evil). If I understand all this correctly, the only way out of this contradiction is if Hell has been, is, and will continue to be empty (of course, not counting Jesus's brief post-crucifixion foray).

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Okay, I don't want to start

Okay, I don't want to start another thread about this, so I'll just ask it here as well:

 
What's the difference between the "Atheist vs. Theist" forum and the "Kill 'Em With Kindness" forum?  Both seem to be the same forum where atheists and theists debate each other...

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Sodium Pentothal

Sodium Pentothal wrote:
Okay, I don't want to start another thread about this, so I'll just ask it here as well:


What's the difference between the "Atheist vs. Theist" forum and the "Kill 'Em With Kindness" forum? Both seem to be the same forum where atheists and theists debate each other...

"Kill 'em with Kindness" -> no profanity, no personal attacks

"Atheist vs. Theist" ->profanity OK, ad hominem tolerated  

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote: Sodium

jcgadfly wrote:

Sodium Pentothal wrote:
Okay, I don't want to start another thread about this, so I'll just ask it here as well:


What's the difference between the "Atheist vs. Theist" forum and the "Kill 'Em With Kindness" forum? Both seem to be the same forum where atheists and theists debate each other...

"Kill 'em with Kindness" -> no profanity, no personal attacks

"Atheist vs. Theist" ->profanity OK, ad hominem tolerated

Interesting lol.  Not sure why one would prefer the latter for serious discussion, but thanks for clearing that up!  Smiling

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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That's pretty much the

That's pretty much the "flavor" of it.

However, even in the Atheist vs Theist Forum, antagonism is against the rules.  Folks can't just start mud-slinging for the fun of it ~ they have to be making a point.

As to your question about the Kill 'Em With Kindness Forum, it states on the Main Forum Page:

Religious debate forum, that is heavily moderated, with strict rules. Posters must make every effort to be kind and courteous. No cursing, no insults, no deconstructive criticism.

Hope that helps. 

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You're arguing that

You're arguing that something which you don't believe exists has an inside?

I like it. I like it a lot. 


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:

You're arguing that something which you don't believe exists has an inside?

I like it. I like it a lot.

"internally" is figuratively referring to the definition of "god."

 

you like that even more?

 

 

p.s. i'd appreciate it if you focus your energy on a proper response rather than on disrespectful sarcasm.

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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No need to get defensive. I

No need to get defensive. I was merely noting the irony of the situation.

 And yes, I do think that the Christian god is contradictory. I even thought so when I was a Christian. 


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Why did you remain Christian

Why did you remain Christian when you knew your god was a contradiction?


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Because contradictions

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.


LosingStreak06
What is the difference between a lie and a contradiction ?


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So it never registered with

LosingStreak06 wrote:

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.

So it never registered with you that an entire belief system based on a contradiction is subsequently false? Or you just refused to believe that?

 

P.S. This conversation would be a lot more productive if you wrote a little more than your curt responses.  Speak your mind! 

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Either way, I'd like to

Either way, I'd like to hear if other Christians agree that God is internally contradictory.

 

Whether or not such a contradiction proves that the entire Christian faith is a sham is another thread for another day (unless it has already been started).

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Adam and Eve are the only

Adam and Eve are the only two humans ever created by the descision of God. Every other human comes into existence because a male and female decide to have sex. So humans decided to bring more humans into existence.


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Rev_Devilin

Rev_Devilin wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.

LosingStreak06 What is the difference between a lie and a contradiction ?

A lie is a kind of contradiction, I would think, wherein a statement that has been made is in contradiction with reality. 


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Sodium Pentothal

Sodium Pentothal wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.

So it never registered with you that an entire belief system based on a contradiction is subsequently false? Or you just refused to believe that?

 

P.S. This conversation would be a lot more productive if you wrote a little more than your curt responses. Speak your mind!

Neither. I simply didn't care. I imagine that if you examined yourself carefully, you would find that you believe many things which aren't true as well. It's part of being a human. As for speaking my mind, I've got to be careful about that. I'm sure if I spoke everything that went through my mind, you would all start to think I was as crazy as I actually am, rather than thinking I am as crazy as you do.


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:
LosingStreak06 wrote:

Because contradictions don't bother me. On the contrary, I am quite fascinated by them.

So it never registered with you that an entire belief system based on a contradiction is subsequently false? Or you just refused to believe that?

 

P.S. This conversation would be a lot more productive if you wrote a little more than your curt responses. Speak your mind!

Neither. I simply didn't care. I imagine that if you examined yourself carefully, you would find that you believe many things which aren't true as well. It's part of being a human. As for speaking my mind, I've got to be careful about that. I'm sure if I spoke everything that went through my mind, you would all start to think I was as crazy as I actually am, rather than thinking I am as crazy as you do.

Either you weren't a true Christian because you truly didn't believe, or you simply refused to believe the gravity of the contradiction then.  Case closed.

 

P.S. If I realized that I believed in something untrue, I'd seek to drop it.  I hope you would too. 

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Sodium Pentothal

Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either you weren't a true Christian because you truly didn't believe, or you simply refused to believe the gravity of the contradiction then. Case closed.

Judge, jury, and executioner, eh? I don't know how you find the time...

Sodium Pentothal wrote:

P.S. If I realized that I believed in something untrue, I'd seek to drop it. I hope you would too.

Of course I wouldn't. Why on earth should I? Because you say so?

 


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either you weren't a true Christian because you truly didn't believe, or you simply refused to believe the gravity of the contradiction then. Case closed.

Judge, jury, and executioner, eh? I don't know how you find the time...

Look, I posted this thread in "Kill 'Em With Kindness" instead of "Atheist vs. Theist" so this can be discussed with respect. Don't take advantage of my patience and kind-heartedness, because we all know that if this was taken to the other forum, you wouldn't be so "confident" anymore.

Either way, I'm sure you feel that way after giving you many chances to defend yourself, which you've failed each time.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

P.S. If I realized that I believed in something untrue, I'd seek to drop it. I hope you would too.

Of course I wouldn't. Why on earth should I? Because you say so?
Of course? This demonstrates your complete disconnect with reality. What makes you think most people would know this?

I hope you would too because people with your kind of attitude make this world dishonest.

 

P.S. Mods, please give this person a warning. He has been nothing but sarcastic and uncooperative this entire thread.

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Sodium Pentothal

Sodium Pentothal wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either you weren't a true Christian because you truly didn't believe, or you simply refused to believe the gravity of the contradiction then. Case closed.

Judge, jury, and executioner, eh? I don't know how you find the time...

Look, I posted this thread in "Kill 'Em With Kindness" instead of "Atheist vs. Theist" so this can be discussed with respect. Don't take advantage of my patience and kind-heartedness, because we all know that if this was taken to the other forum, you wouldn't be so "confident" anymore.

Either way, I'm sure you feel that way after giving you many chances to defend yourself, which you've failed each time.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

P.S. If I realized that I believed in something untrue, I'd seek to drop it. I hope you would too.

Of course I wouldn't. Why on earth should I? Because you say so?
Of course? This demonstrates your complete disconnect with reality. What makes you think most people would know this?

I hope you would too because people with your kind of attitude make this world dishonest.

 

P.S. Mods, please give this person a warning. He has been nothing but sarcastic and uncooperative this entire thread.

You seem to be under the impression that I am actively trying to annoy or pester you. Such is not the case. If a person is walking down the street, and another person is offended by it, should the person walking down the street be reprimanded for doing so, when his intent was not malicious?

If I am uncooperative, it is because I do not share your rationality. I am irrational. I understand, accept, and very deeply desire that. If you cannot deal with that, then simply say so.

If I am disconnected from reality, it is because I choose to be. Why should I connect with reality? To what point and purpose?


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Not only is the christian

Not only is the christian 'god' internally contradictory, but the term is contradictory in two different ways:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/god_is_an_incoherent_term

 

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Books on atheism.


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either you weren't a true Christian because you truly didn't believe, or you simply refused to believe the gravity of the contradiction then. Case closed.

Judge, jury, and executioner, eh? I don't know how you find the time...

Look, I posted this thread in "Kill 'Em With Kindness" instead of "Atheist vs. Theist" so this can be discussed with respect. Don't take advantage of my patience and kind-heartedness, because we all know that if this was taken to the other forum, you wouldn't be so "confident" anymore.

Either way, I'm sure you feel that way after giving you many chances to defend yourself, which you've failed each time.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

P.S. If I realized that I believed in something untrue, I'd seek to drop it. I hope you would too.

Of course I wouldn't. Why on earth should I? Because you say so?
Of course? This demonstrates your complete disconnect with reality. What makes you think most people would know this?

I hope you would too because people with your kind of attitude make this world dishonest.

 

P.S. Mods, please give this person a warning. He has been nothing but sarcastic and uncooperative this entire thread.

You seem to be under the impression that I am actively trying to annoy or pester you. Such is not the case. If a person is walking down the street, and another person is offended by it, should the person walking down the street be reprimanded for doing so, when his intent was not malicious?

If I am uncooperative, it is because I do not share your rationality. I am irrational. I understand, accept, and very deeply desire that. If you cannot deal with that, then simply say so.

If I am disconnected from reality, it is because I choose to be. Why should I connect with reality? To what point and purpose?

That street analogy is way off base. In order for that person to be reprimanded, he has to be accused of something, and anyone reading this thread will see that my accusation of you are self-evident. Considering your posts, it is clear that you are more than aware enough of how other people feel and respond, so it's not like you're an accidental ass but rather a deliberate dick.

Either way, your last 2 paragraphs has pretty much made this case closed. You can't engage in a logical discussion with someone who doesn't want to be logical. In fact, you don't even want to admit that you are at times logical (like with your attempt with your street analogy above), and at other times you consciously rebel against it. This is cherry-picking when you want to be rational so that you can mold everything to fit your reality. This is the kind of apathetic self-denial that I criticize against. People like you can't handle the truth, so they develop psychological ways to cope with it...and in your case, you cherry-pick. I use the word, "psychological," because this is indicative of a psychological/mind disorder.

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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todangst wrote:

todangst wrote:

Not only is the christian 'god' internally contradictory, but the term is contradictory in two different ways:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/god_is_an_incoherent_term

 

Don't bother. LosingStreak has already admitted he is selectively irrational, so logical discourse doesn't work on him.

 

P.S. I linked your same article in my original post lol.

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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Sodium Pentothal

Sodium Pentothal wrote:

That street analogy is way off base. In order for that person to be reprimanded, he has to be accused of something, and anyone reading this thread will see that my accusation of you are self-evident. Considering your posts, it is clear that you are more than aware enough of how other people feel and respond, so it's not like you're an accidental ass but rather a deliberate dick.

I do believe that swearing, and using derogatory insults are explicitly against the rules of this forum. My point still remains: it is your own fault and no one elses that you are angered by my behavior. 

Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either way, your last 2 paragraphs has pretty much made this case closed. You can't engage in a logical discussion with someone who doesn't want to be logical. In fact, you don't even want to admit that you are at times logical (like with your attempt with your street analogy above), and at other times you consciously rebel against it.

Rather irrational behavior, I would say. 

Sodium Pentothal wrote:
This is cherry-picking when you want to be rational so that you can mold everything to fit your reality. This is the kind of apathetic self-denial that I criticize against. People like you can't handle the truth, so they develop psychological ways to cope with it...and in your case, you cherry-pick.

It's not that I can't handle the truth, it's that I don't see why I should have to in the first place. 

Sodium Pentothal wrote:
I use the word, "psychological," because this is indicative of a psychological/mind disorder.

Well, I hope you feel better now that you've got me all figured out. I'll let my shrinks know that you did all the work for them. And yeah, just in case you were wondering, that was me being snide.


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LosingStreak06

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

That street analogy is way off base. In order for that person to be reprimanded, he has to be accused of something, and anyone reading this thread will see that my accusation of you are self-evident. Considering your posts, it is clear that you are more than aware enough of how other people feel and respond, so it's not like you're an accidental ass but rather a deliberate dick.

I do believe that swearing, and using derogatory insults are explicitly against the rules of this forum. My point still remains: it is your own fault and no one elses that you are angered by my behavior.

Don't mistake me pointing out your uncooperation as anger. If you didn't get the hint, I was basically saying you were a troll. The fact that I somehow got you to care enough to post more than a short, curt 1-sentence reply probably means you're a not troll. Also don't mistake me saying you are aware of how people feel with anger; it's just a way to say that you've demonstrated that you're not socially retarded (which is why I said you're not an "accidental ass" ). Also, clever alliteration may be facetious, but it is certainly not derogatory.

 

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:

Either way, your last 2 paragraphs has pretty much made this case closed. You can't engage in a logical discussion with someone who doesn't want to be logical. In fact, you don't even want to admit that you are at times logical (like with your attempt with your street analogy above), and at other times you consciously rebel against it.

Rather irrational behavior, I would say.

Ironic that this is coming from someone who brags about his rockstar too-cool-for-school irrationality.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:
This is cherry-picking when you want to be rational so that you can mold everything to fit your reality. This is the kind of apathetic self-denial that I criticize against. People like you can't handle the truth, so they develop psychological ways to cope with it...and in your case, you cherry-pick.

It's not that I can't handle the truth, it's that I don't see why I should have to in the first place.

Perfect example of cherry-picking.

LosingStreak06 wrote:
Sodium Pentothal wrote:
I use the word, "psychological," because this is indicative of a psychological/mind disorder.

Well, I hope you feel better now that you've got me all figured out. I'll let my shrinks know that you did all the work for them. And yeah, just in case you were wondering, that was me being snide.

That's basic Troll Theory 101 - the more attention you give to trolls, the more they want to troll. The only way to get rid of them is to ignore them or expose their game. But as I said earlier, you may have actually just proven yourself to not be troll, so apologies if this wasn't your game.

"If I don't think something can be explained conventionally, it must be magic. And magic comes from God!" -everyday religious person


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/Mod hat on/ This is the

/Mod hat on/

This is the Kill 'em with Kindness forum.  There are no ad hominem attacks allowed in this forum.  There is a link provided on the left hand side of the screen with the complete rules. 

/Mod hat off/ 


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  It was mentioned

 

It was mentioned multiple times that this is the Kill 'Em With Kindness Forum, yet the poor posts continued. 

I am going to lock this thread because I cannot even begin to figure out how to edit out all the insults, mud-slinging and sarcasm.

 

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