Without Hope, You're Hopeless

jive turkey
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Without Hope, You're Hopeless

I'm curious to know what some of the atheist out there hope in/for and why.

My personal hope (with is pretty much orthodox Christianity) is that somehow, someway everything will be made right…that there is ultimate meaning and purpose to my life and that I am truly, thoroughly loved. This hope helps me to carry on in difficult circumstances and it helps me to forgive others and to let go of resentment (which bring me peace).

I do not wish to engage in any "my hope is better that your hope" nonsense, but as a fellow human being I figure you must hope in something or have something you use 'like' I use hope.

Any thoughtful response will be appreciated.

/peace


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Why would you think any of

Why would you think any of ours is different?  Mine is the same as yours except yours probably has some underlying current attributing all of that to a god.  Mine does not.  Yes, I hope that humanity someday finds a way to achieve harmony.  Yes, I believe there is a purpose to my life and I am learning what it is everyday.  Yes, I hope that I am truly, thoroughly loved for who I am - in fact, my parents and my children already do.

These things help me carry on in difficult times (along with some cake) and help me understand others so that I can forgive them and not harbor resentment.  Life is too short for that!  

Does that make sense? 

 


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My hopes are simple.  I

My hopes are simple.  I hope to enjoy life and feel productive.  I hope my child has the same opportunity and more opporunity to enjoy life.

Without going into my hope vs your hope, I do want to talk about the conflict.  My belief in how to achieve what I consider a better world is at the expense of religion, borders, and inequity.  I hope for globalization.  Unlikely in my time, but perhaps for my kid or kid's kid or even farther down the line.

Why do I hope for that? Because it's what I think is right.  We all have such a limited time to experience our lives, we are blessed with true conciousness and undertanding and an incredible ability to learn.  I want mine, and everyones time spent on earth to be the best possible. I should also note that my life's enjoyment is directly impacted by the people around me.  So I am directly benefited by trying to have all people be happy, not just myself.


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ditto

I like jce's answer.

As a teacher I have another one to add to those, though.  I hope specifically that willful ignorance and self-delusion, and the fear they engender, can someday be eradicated from human experience.

If you can see it work, even just occasionally with a few students, that's enough to keep you going. 

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


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I have hope. But it's not

I have hope. But it's not the same as yours. I know my life has meaning and purpose. The difference is though, that I do not believe it to be a divinely inspired purpose. I know the purpose of my life, as well as life in general. It is to live. That is the basic purpose of all life. Live life to it's fullest, because one day.. it will end. And we can never be certain of what that end will contain untill it comes. My purpose is, whatever I make it.

"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.


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I hope my beer will be cold

I hope my beer will be cold and my woman warm.

That's it really. 


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I hope I make a difference

I hope I make a difference in the things about which I'm passionate.  But you know, I don't have to hope I make a difference, I know I do.

My purpose in life is to make a difference in the things about which I'm passionate. 

Sometimes this can be accomplished by small things like kindnesses to other human beings.

In many cases, this can be accomplished by helping to care for animals. 

Many times, anyone can make a difference in volunterism. 

I know I can get through difficult circumstances, mostly with inner fortitude, but also with kindnesses shown to me. 

 

 

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I have 'hope' to use my time

I have 'hope' to use my time on this planet to the best of my ability and make the people around glad they have known me.


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i have a mixed bag of

i have a mixed bag of hopes, because many of them have, at least partially come to pass.

i'd hoped that i would raise my children to be smart and wise and to always seek the truth, and as young teens they are already making me proud.

i'd hoped to find a wife who was intelligent, funny, sexy, whom i would never stop gazing at like a silly schoolboy, and who would be my very best friend. and i did.

i'd hoped to pass out of my lazy gen-x apathy and move on to a richer, fuller lifestyle where reading, learning and growing meant more than copping an attitude at a downtown bar, and i have.

i still have greater hopes. i hope to be part of the generation that turns the tide of global warming, so as to spare my children and grandchildren. i hope i live to see the discovery of cures for things like cancer and aids, i know i having nothing to offer intellectually towards these goals but to witness the beginning of the end of these diseases would be a wonderful thing.
 my biggest hopes, though, are always for my children. i hope that at some point in their lives a year can pass where they aren't bombarded with news of senseless violence and pointless wars. there's been no such year in my lifetime, but i'd like to think there will be in theirs.

and last, i guess i hope i never stop caring as much as i do about the world i live in, because you can't change something once you become indifferent to it, and there's a lot of things in this world that need to be changed. 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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I hope we can all find out

I hope we can all find out that Knowledge is so much better then "Magic." 

 

Also every year I hope the Toronto Maple Leafs win the cup.   '08 is the Leafs year!


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What an extraordinarily nice

What an extraordinarily nice thread Smiling

My hopes? Short term stuff, mostly.

I hope that someday mankind gets its **** sorted out but I won't be around by then.

I hope to live forever, but fat chance.

I hope to eat more pizza... ideally without getting too round-shaped.

I hope to be allowed into the US to marry my fiancée.

I hope we can make the marriage work.

I hope I can support her in the manner to which I'd like her to become accustomed.

Yes, that's sexist, she can support herself, and we intend to be childfree. Still. Like women feel they have to be good looking, men feel they have to be providers. Same kind of stupidity I guess.

I hope I can move to the US to be ith her, or she can move here.

I hope I can own my own home someday.

I hope to learn bladesmithing.

[MOD EDIT to remove curse word - This is the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum]

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I hope i dont die before i

I hope i dont die before i reproduce.

 


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My only hope in life is to

My only hope in life is to be happy. I don't care about the details as much...


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I guess this is a typical

I guess this is a typical theistic fallacy. They can't see how we can have hope without God. It is quite clear that we do. Without Hope we'd be Hopeless, you are correct but we have hope.

I have hope that I will have a fulfilling life, that the world will become a better place for all to live in. In the end of capitalism, fundamentalism, exploitation and oppression. That all people can live their lives the way they want so long as that doesn't infringe on others. I hope I will find a nice woman, have kids. I hope to become a professor of Philosophy. I hope Manchester United have an even better season next year.

Without God we are Godless, correct, but Godless isn't a bad thing, nor is it analogous with hope.


jive turkey
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Thanks to everyone who

Thanks to everyone who responded, I do appreciate it. I have some questions about some things brought up in the responses that I don't understand or seek clarification on.

I wish to restate again my intention NOT to have this be a "my hope is better than your hope" thread (otherwise I would have put it in Atheist v. Theist) so I will make every effort to word things as best I can so as not to be insensitive, but please keep in mind that I am asking from a position of ignorance (I don't know what you think) and am seeking clarification. I recognize hope as a universal human belief, but for me it is tied strongly to my theist belief system and is therefore difficult for me to understand hope apart from God.

Hope has been used in this thread to refer to two basic kinds of things: things we can control and things we cannot control. I see hope in something one can control as more of an aspiration than a hope and don't address them here. (But I do hope for cold beer too.) I'm interested in the things we hope for that at least have a major element that we cannot control. In that light, I would like to assert that hope is irrational by its very nature and the rational person should try to eliminate it from their life. (That's an extreme statement I know but that's why I'm asking you.)

One of the common hopes (one I share) was some form of "hope for world peace". To me this seems noble but ultimately irrational. The question that comes to my mind first is, "Who will bring about this peace?" If this hope is placed in us (mankind), I immediately think of our track record. To put in frankly, we suck at peace. We weaponize every piece of technology and use every bit of scientific discovery to build bigger, better killing devices. In fact, much (if not the majority) of scientific and technological discovery has as its drivers weapons and war.

Call me a pessimist but here's where my rationality leads me on the question of peace:

Large Brain + Opposable Thumb + Time = BOOM!

Why hope for world peace when the evidence points to destruction?

A second hope expressed on many threads was hope to be loved or for our loved ones to do well. I want to be really careful here because we all hold love and our loved ones so dear but I also want to understand. My assumption about love (especially familial love) is that it is (ideally) unselfish and unconditional, these seem to ring true with the definitions I have read and the people I have asked about it. But I don't see how this ideal fits with the Darwinian model. For example, do I really love (unselfishly) my kids or is "love" really just biology's way of motivating me to take care my offspring so that I pass on my genes? Do my kids really love me (again, unselfishly) or do they simply need me? Perhaps my question is , "Does (unselfish) love exist?" So why hope to be loved when the best we can really do is to be needed or to be useful?

Nietzsche sums up where my mind goes when I think about hope without God or an afterlife.

"Hope…In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment." (from Human, All Too Human)

Your responses are once again appreciated.

/peace


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I'm sorry, I fail to see

I'm sorry, I fail to see how this has anything to do with atheism vs theism. Just because people do not believe in god, do they have no hope of better things to happen? Of course they do. Hope just means you wish something to happen. You hope this will happen. You hope people will treat you nice.

 

I think the main thing to consider here is that theists hope in things through god, while those with little to no faith in god believe through hope... just as it is. Wishfull thinking. Might happen, might not.  

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jive turkey wrote: Call me

jive turkey wrote:
Call me a pessimist but here's where my rationality leads me on the question of peace:

Large Brain + Opposable Thumb + Time = BOOM!

Why hope for world peace when the evidence points to destruction?

The fact there are over six billion of us and this number continues to expand?  There have always been wars but we continue to increase in numbers.

World peace will never happen.  However it's not neccessary for the survival of the human race.   

Quote:
But I don't see how this ideal fits with the Darwinian model. For example, do I really love (unselfishly) my kids or is "love" really just biology's way of motivating me to take care my offspring so that I pass on my genes?

Does it really matter?  The end result is the same. 

Quote:
Do my kids really love me (again, unselfishly) or do they simply need me? Perhaps my question is , "Does (unselfish) love exist?" So why hope to be loved when the best we can really do is to be needed or to be useful?

Wrong.  We can and are loved.  I have 13 years with the same woman to back that up. 

Quote:
Nietzsche sums up where my mind goes when I think about hope without God or an afterlife.

"Hope…In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment." (from
Human, All Too Human)

Yeah, but Freddy was a total emo kid.  I on the other hand have absolutely no need to believe in God or an afterlife to have hope because they're totally unrelated.  How, for example, is faith in God going cure your child from cancer?  Surely having hope and, heck, faith in medicine would be a better idea?

The human spirit requires no crutch to help it hope and love an dream.  It's one of the fundamentals that actualy makes our otherwise silly little species rather special.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


Iruka Naminori
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I hope religion ends

I hope religion ends tomorrow.


Susan
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jive turkey wrote:

jive turkey wrote:

Perhaps my question is , "Does (unselfish) love exist?" So why hope to be loved when the best we can really do is to be needed or to be useful?

Hi jive turkey.  Well, guess what.  I have no children and I have no spouse. I'm not at all concerned about keeping my gene pool going.

Yet, I have dear friends that I would do just about anything for. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "the best we can really do is to be needed or to be useful" because you're not mixing in the emotional part of a relationship. 

Yes, I hope my friends need me (I hope they enjoy my company and look forward to spending time with me).  Yes, I hope to be useful to my friends (geez, if they're in trouble and I can help, I sure hope they call me).

They do not need me to survive or get through the day, but I hope I enrich their lives a bit and they're happy they know me.

Does that make sense?

 

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jive turkey wrote: hope is

jive turkey wrote:
hope is irrational by its very nature and the rational person should try to eliminate it from their life.

Believing your hopes might affect things may be irrational.

Having hope, in itself, doesn't seem either rational or irrational to me: it's more of an acknowledgement of a problem: "X is bad, and it would be good if it improved" - not illogical, just truth.

Quote:
Large Brain + Opposable Thumb + Time = BOOM!

Large Brain + Opposable Thumb + Time + Sense of self-preservation + Instinctive morality = BOOM?

The fact that we are not innately "evil" or "vicious" or "sinful" puts a question mark after that "boom". We don't have to end up killing ourselves. Might happen, but we might instead figure out a way to make it so that all societies are considered part of everyone's "in" group, and we all cooperate instead of warring.

I think that we have actually come a long way in the last century. Sure, we've invented some really awesome ways of massacring eachother on a grand scale: but we've also found unprecedented diplomatic tools that prevent that kind of thing.

But, yeah, I do feel that GWB dragged us back at least 70 years in that path.

Quote:
Does (unselfish) love exist?

Absolutely... sort of.

Love is a set of neurochemicals in your brain. You will feel pain if those you love are hurt, you will feel good when they achieve, you will feel great when you do stuff for them, you will feel awful if you let them down, and so on. On that level, then, you are responding merely to the sticks and carrots of your preprogrammed instincts.

But those instincts are there for rational reasons: love may be irrational in individual cases (just watch Cops, as they drag some trailer trash away for beating up his wife, and she's standing by, screaming at them "You leave him alone! He's done nothin' wrong!"). But in general, love is a very rational and sensible thing.

If we don't have those neurochemical signals that tell us whether we're doing right by our fellow man, we are termed "sociopathic". This tends not to be a rational state of affairs, and generally results in greater discomfort for the sociopath and those around him.

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jive turkey wrote: I'm

jive turkey wrote:
I'm curious to know what some of the atheist out there hope in/for and why.

I live because I want to live. Why wouldn't I? What I hope for? A brighter tomorrow. Less or no war. Prosperity for all. Etc.

jive turkey wrote:
My personal hope (with is pretty much orthodox Christianity) is that somehow, someway everything will be made right…that there is ultimate meaning and purpose to my life and that I am truly, thoroughly loved.

You don't have people to love you? You don't have any reason to live without a god? Why?

jive turkey wrote:
This hope helps me to carry on in difficult circumstances and it helps me to forgive others and to let go of resentment (which bring me peace).

I'm usually rather cynical during difficult times. My survival instinct however would never allow me to kill myself without an extremely good reason. The only option is to carry on.

jive turkey wrote:
I do not wish to engage in any "my hope is better that your hope" nonsense, but as a fellow human being I figure you must hope in something or have something you use 'like' I use hope.

I don't know that I do. I have value to me. I want to exist, now that I do anyway. That's good enough of a reason to exist for me.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jive turkey
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wrote: The fact there are

wrote:

The fact there are over six billion of us and this number continues to expand? There have always been wars but we continue to increase in numbers.

Yes but we have only very recently developed really nasty weapons…a thousand years from now, what manner of WMD will we possess? The odds suggest that sooner or later very powerful weapons will be in the hands of those who wish to use them.

Iruka wrote:
I hope religion ends tomorrow.

Awfully unkind for the KWKF….and from a Mod!

Susan wrote:
Yes, I hope my friends need me (I hope they enjoy my company and look forward to spending time with me). Yes, I hope to be useful to my friends (geez, if they're in trouble and I can help, I sure hope they call me).

They do not need me to survive or get through the day, but I hope I enrich their lives a bit and they're happy they know me.

Does that make sense?

Totally.

DewiMorgan wrote:

Large Brain + Opposable Thumb + Time + Sense of self-preservation + Instinctive morality = BOOM?

The fact that we are not innately "evil" or "vicious" or "sinful" puts a question mark after that "boom". We don't have to end up killing ourselves. Might happen, but we might instead figure out a way to make it so that all societies are considered part of everyone's "in" group, and we all cooperate instead of warring.

I must admit that I like your equation better…especially the question mark. But then again I think about all the suicide bombers….what if they had a really BIG bomb?

Whether we are innately 'evil' or 'sinful' depends on one's definitions. I loosely define those terms as 'selfish' and 'morally imperfect' and I think they are obviously true. Selfishness and moral imperfection seem to be enough to drive all kinds of destruction and suffering…I'm hard pressed to think of man made horrors that don't boil down to that.

DewiMorgan wrote:
Absolutely... sort of.

Love is a set of neurochemicals in your brain. You will feel pain if those you love are hurt, you will feel good when they achieve, you will feel great when you do stuff for them, you will feel awful if you let them down, and so on. On that level, then, you are responding merely to the sticks and carrots of your preprogrammed instincts.

But those instincts are there for rational reasons: love may be irrational in individual cases (just watch Cops, as they drag some trailer trash away for beating up his wife, and she's standing by, screaming at them "You leave him alone! He's done nothin' wrong!&quotEye-wink. But in general, love is a very rational and sensible thing.

If we don't have those neurochemical signals that tell us whether we're doing right by our fellow man, we are termed "sociopathic". This tends not to be a rational state of affairs, and generally results in greater discomfort for the sociopath and those around him.

Very interesting once again. How does one develop 'love' for those who one does not even know? There's no biological connection or parental instinct that is being leveraged, there's so direct social gain (I'm nice to you so you're nice to me so we're all better off). I'm thinking of instances like MLK. He gave up time with his family, social status, wealth…everything…to help people whom (mostly) he had never met. Is that not evidence of a higher love or at least something beyond the "sticks and carrots of your preprogrammed instincts"?


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jive turkey wrote: Yes but

jive turkey wrote:
Yes but we have only very recently developed really nasty weapons…

Err... no. We used to have the charming habit of lobbing infected corpses into cities to spread plague, small pox and cholera amongst other diseases during sieges. Of course, germ warfare is now banned by international law.

Quote:
a thousand years from now, what manner of WMD will we possess? The odds suggest that sooner or later very powerful weapons will be in the hands of those who wish to use them.

They already are. Fortunately the rest of the world will turn them and their sponsors into a pile of ash if they do.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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A blog entry I made a few

A blog entry I made a few days ago answers the question of Atheistic morality and hope (at least my humanist version of it). 

Here: http://cerebralthinking.blogspot.com/ 

Cheers 

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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jive turkey

jive turkey wrote:

 

Iruka wrote:
I hope religion ends tomorrow.

Awfully unkind for the KWKF….and from a Mod!

How so? Please show me where I swore or engaged in a personal attack. How does wishing for an end to religion make me "unkind"? The world would be better off if religion ended tomorrow.

Would you rather I lie and say I don't want religion to end?

I think you are confused about exactly what I mean. I do want religion to end, but not by force. I want it to end because people finally realize they are lying to themselves and that it is causing strife in their personal, familial, national and international relationships. All we are doing is engaging in discourse in the hope of ending the greatest scourge humanity has ever seen.

If you want proof that religion is that destructive, I can point you to several tomes.

If my opinion offends you, that is your problem.  If your opinion offends me, that is my problem.  No one is allowed to go through life unoffended. 

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Patrician wrote: We used

Patrician wrote:
We used to have the charming habit of lobbing infected corpses into cities to spread plague, small pox and cholera amongst other diseases during sieges.
Good point.
Patrician wrote:
Fortunately the rest of the world will turn them and their sponsors into a pile of ash if they do.
I was thinking more of those who either wish to die or believe they will be rewarded for it….like the Va. Tech shooter or jihadists. I do hope that you are right but when I look at my cell phone and think of the technological wonder that it is and how unimaginable something like that was 100 years ago; I think how will we ever be able to keep technology (specifically weapons technology) from trickling down from rich states to poor states to rich groups to poor group to rich individuals to average Joes like you and I?
Iruka wrote:
How so? Please show me where I swore or engaged in a personal attack. How does wishing for an end to religion make me "unkind"? The world would be better off if religion ended tomorrow. Would you rather I lie and say I don't want religion to end? I think you are confused about exactly what I mean. I do want religion to end, but not by force. I want it to end because people finally realize they are lying to themselves and that it is causing strife in their personal, familial, national and international relationships. All we are doing is engaging in discourse in the hope of ending the greatest scourge humanity has ever seen. If you want proof that religion is that destructive, I can point you to several tomes. If my opinion offends you, that is your problem. If your opinion offends me, that is my problem. No one is allowed to go through life unoffended.
To begin, I want to say that I'm not mad at you and I don't think you're a bad or unkind person or anything like that and that I was not offended by what you said. However, I did get the impression that you were trying to be offensive. I would not have responded (and perhaps I should have just let it go) but you are a Mod and (in my mind anyway) an example of how to conduct oneself. In coming to the conclusion that you were trying to be offensive I did make some assumptions about you: I assumed you read the thread, I assumed you were able to understand the tone of the thread and I assumed that you have a similar understanding of the word 'kindness' that I do (both of us being humans and all). I don't think anything can be gained by going into specifics because then we could end up going back and forth, parsing words out, and that's not what I want to do. So I'm sure that you abided by the letter of the rules of the forum but I simply ask you to consider whether you feel you abided by the spirit of them. Again, I'm cool with you. You wrote, "I think you are confused about exactly what I mean." Well of course I was, you didn't tell me. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because I didn't know what you thought. Now you have expounded on your first post and now I know what you mean. So now on to the substance of what you said.

To me, 'religion' simply means "belief system" or "world view" so the idea of ending religion seems odd. (But I do take it that you mean theistic belief systems or theistic belief systems that meet certain other criteria.) And I don't agree that there is proof (a very high standard) that religion is destructive. The 20th century offers many examples of belief systems that are not theistic is their basis that were hugely destructive. My belief is that the problem is not broadly in belief systems but in a specific thing that is in me and in you, namely selfishness. I have done destructive things not because of my religion (rather they were against my religion) but because I simply wanted to, thought I deserved it, or justified it in some way. I believe human atrocities are done for the same reasons, it's just that some people are in positions to inflict more destruction. I also believe that any answer will not come by mocking or attacking others but through showing by example. This requires that the person doing the showing must possess what they are demonstrating. I'm a skeptic at heart, I believe a belief system works when I see it producing peace, love and joy in the life of the individual who is putting it into practice. You want me to belief theistic belief systems are bad and atheistic belief systems are better? Show me. So far, in my experience (which is all I can ever have), those who actually put into practice the teachings of Jesus appear to easily be the obvious choice when I use this test. So it is perfectly rational for me to do the things they said got them their peace, love and joy if I also want those things.


Iruka Naminori
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jive turkey wrote:

jive turkey wrote:
To begin, I want to say that I'm not mad at you and I don't think you're a bad or unkind person or anything like that and that I was not offended by what you said. However, I did get the impression that you were trying to be offensive. I would not have responded (and perhaps I should have just let it go) but you are a Mod and (in my mind anyway) an example of how to conduct oneself.

Moderators try to conduct themselves within the rules. I haven't broken any rules. No, I wasn't trying to be offensive. If anything, I was trying to make a joke.

The goal of the Rational Response Squad is to end religion. I think it was in the Nightline interview that Sapient said his goal wasn't realistic: it was to end religion tomorrow. What I wrote was based both on the RRS's reason for existence and our hope that religion will end tomorrow, however unrealistic that goal is. Smiling

I think you are possibly operating on the assumption that religion deserves some sort of special consideration simply because it is religion. We don't play that here, even in the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum. Sorry. The beliefs of religionists must sink or swim according to whether or not they can withstand intense scrutiny, just like any other belief.

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Sapient
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Jive Turkey,    You have

Jive Turkey, 

 

You have violated the rules of our website.  This is your first warning.  Please refrain from scolding mods about their actions unless it is exclusive from the fact that they are mods.  

REFER TO BOARD RULES:

"The moderators are the sole arbitrators of the House Rules and pass judgment on a case-by-case basis. Community members can contact a mod if they think the rules should be enhanced or altered in some way."

 "Should any issue be had with a moderator action, please PM one other moderator concerning the issue."

 "Do not post your gripes about moderation of the forum on the forum itself, such action is considered to be akin to attacking the sites tactics, and shows a lack of genuine interest in mere discussion. Don't hold a grudge, contact another mod!"

I wont warn you again, next time you will be removed from the forum. 

_______________________

 Iruka was well within the rights of what is kind.  If you think that honesty is unkind I suggest you leave this website, because it runs rampant here among atheists.  Iruka would like to see religion gone tomorrow, she was honest and was not in violation of the rules.  Had you said "I'd like to see atheism gone tomorrow" you too would have been within the rules.

Your infraction was not only unfounded and without merit, but it has taken unnecessary time from my day, were you to have read and understood the rules this likely wouldn't have happened.

HERE ARE THE BOARD RULES. 

 

In case I wasn't crystal clear: board members are not welcome to assume the role of moderator on the forum.  

 

 

- Brian Sapient


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jive turkey
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Sapient wrote: In case I

Sapient wrote:

In case I wasn't crystal clear: board members are not welcome to assume the role of moderator on the forum.  

My bad for not reading the rules.  I am at fault.

Sapient wrote:
  If you think that honesty is unkind I suggest you leave this website, because it runs rampant here among atheists. 

I can think of no rational reason for you to make that assumption...but it's not a problem for me since you are curious.