The business of religion vs the business of anti-religion

Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
The business of religion vs the business of anti-religion

The business of religion vs the business of anti-religion

Religion itself is nothing more than a moneymaking scam

This site seems to have adopted this moneymaking philosophy

? should the rational response squad be considered as a cult organization. no better than the organizations it suggests it's against

 


Ghost of Amityville
Theist
Ghost of Amityville's picture
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
Good question. I myself have

Good question. I myself have wondered what the members of the RRS do at their cult meetings.


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Goat sacrifice mainly with

Goat sacrifice mainly with the odd bit of nudity thrown in for good measure.


thraxas
thraxas's picture
Posts: 89
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
This site helps to educate

This site helps to educate people with rational, logical thought. Taking donations to help keep the site and radio show running is not equivalent to a religion. Don't even go there

Biochemist & Law Student

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson


Maragon
Maragon's picture
Posts: 351
Joined: 2007-04-01
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician wrote: Goat

The Patrician wrote:
Goat sacrifice mainly with the odd bit of nudity thrown in for good measure.

 

It's my turn this week to set up the 'science alter' where we all pray to Darwin and Dawkins. 


Ghost of Amityville
Theist
Ghost of Amityville's picture
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
Why would you pray to

Why would you pray to Dawkins when his writings get such mixed reviews? If it was Holy Scripture, then the New York Review of Books wouldn't tell people to check it out at the library instead of spending money on it, would it?

I take pride in being a newb. I'm not all experienced and boring like the normies.


pariahjane
pariahjane's picture
Posts: 1595
Joined: 2006-05-06
User is offlineOffline
Is National Public Radio a

Is National Public Radio a cult because they ask for donations?  PBS?  I highly doubt there is a Masterpiece Theater cult lurking around out there.  Just because this site asks for donations does not make it a cult or a scam. 

Are they requiring that you pay to post?  When you signed up here, did the ask for a credit card number?

If god takes life he's an indian giver


Maragon
Maragon's picture
Posts: 351
Joined: 2007-04-01
User is offlineOffline
Ghost of Amityville

Ghost of Amityville wrote:
Why would you pray to Dawkins when his writings get such mixed reviews? If it was Holy Scripture, then the New York Review of Books wouldn't tell people to check it out at the library instead of spending money on it, would it?

 

It was a joke.

 

Theists often tell me that I 'pray' to Dawkins and Darwin, which is a silly assertation. 

I didn't even LIKE the God Delusion that much. 


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
pariahjane wrote: Is

pariahjane wrote:

Is National Public Radio a cult because they ask for donations? PBS? I highly doubt there is a Masterpiece Theater cult lurking around out there. Just because this site asks for donations does not make it a cult or a scam.

Are they requiring that you pay to post? When you signed up here, did the ask for a credit card number?

WHY WE NEED YOUR HELP: SHOW EXPENSES $3,273.60

David Mills  $1000 Lee  $800 Slate $666 Justmoon Knowledge $666 Boatload Crosswords $501 Dr. Hudak $500 Rational Response Squad Oklahoma $500 Veronica Guy $500  Mr. XC  $500 Scott $449 Caseagainstfaith.com  $431 Evolvefish.com $266

= 6,779.00 - $3,273.60

= 3,505.4 excluding Google ads T-shirt sales. First Five Shows Subtotal With Shipping:$5.00 USD Pay with Credit Card ect.ect.ect

 I'm simply curious about the motivation for this site although I doubt you'll be running off to the Bahamas soon I believe the question is valid. is this a money making business. based upon anti-faith principles ?  

cult By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization

 


 




Tilberian
Moderator
Tilberian's picture
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2006-11-27
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote:

Rev_Devilin wrote:

I'm simply curious about the motivation for this site although I doubt you'll be running off to the Bahamas soon I believe the question is valid. is this a money making business. based upon anti-faith principles ?

 

I hope Brian, Rook and Kelly make some money off this site. They certainly earn it. But I think that they probably roll all the money that comes in back into the ongoing RRS efforts.

I know, Reverend, that you would never question the integrity of the RRS just because they ask for donations to help the cause. That might be construed as "casting the first stone."

 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


pariahjane
pariahjane's picture
Posts: 1595
Joined: 2006-05-06
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin

Rev_Devilin wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

Is National Public Radio a cult because they ask for donations? PBS? I highly doubt there is a Masterpiece Theater cult lurking around out there. Just because this site asks for donations does not make it a cult or a scam.

Are they requiring that you pay to post? When you signed up here, did the ask for a credit card number?

WHY WE NEED YOUR HELP: SHOW EXPENSES $3,273.60

David Mills  $1000 Lee  $800 Slate $666 Justmoon Knowledge $666 Boatload Crosswords $501 Dr. Hudak $500 Rational Response Squad Oklahoma $500 Veronica Guy $500  Mr. XC  $500 Scott $449 Caseagainstfaith.com  $431 Evolvefish.com $266

= 6,779.00 - $3,273.60

= 3,505.4 excluding Google ads T-shirt sales. First Five Shows Subtotal With Shipping:$5.00 USD Pay with Credit Card ect.ect.ect

 I'm simply curious about the motivation for this site although I doubt you'll be running off to the Bahamas soon I believe the question is valid. is this a money making business. based upon anti-faith principles ?  

cult By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization

I'm not quite sure why you're so hell bent on the whole cult angle.  It's not even close to being a cult.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


Tilberian
Moderator
Tilberian's picture
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2006-11-27
User is offlineOffline
pariahjane wrote: I'm not

pariahjane wrote:

I'm not quite sure why you're so hell bent on the whole cult angle. It's not even close to being a cult.

No kidding.

Cult = give us ALL your money and never talk to your friends and family.

RRS = give us something if you can and if you can't no biggy 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
Dude, if they wanted to

Dude, if they wanted to make money this would be a porn site.

 

Next question. 


LovE-RicH
LovE-RicH's picture
Posts: 183
Joined: 2007-01-18
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician wrote: Dude,

The Patrician wrote:

Dude, if they wanted to make money this would be a porn site.

Next question.

Exactly!:D 


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician wrote: Dude,

The Patrician wrote:

Dude, if they wanted to make money this would be a porn site.

Next question.

After slogging through some pretty heated posts this evening, this one provided a much-needed laugh-out-loud moment.  Of course, there is also a ring of truth to it!

 Thank you!

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Tilberian
Moderator
Tilberian's picture
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2006-11-27
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician wrote: Dude,

The Patrician wrote:

Dude, if they wanted to make money this would be a porn site.

 

Next question.

OWNED!!!!

LOL, that was awesome. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: The

Rev_Devilin wrote:

The business of religion vs the business of anti-religion

Religion itself is nothing more than a moneymaking scam

This site seems to have adopted this moneymaking philosophy

? should the rational response squad be considered as a cult organization. no better than the organizations it suggests it's against

 

 

Only if they get tax-free priviledges! 

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
This topic as been brought

This topic as been brought up before, be careful with the topic and make sure you back up the things you say.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/miscellanous_forums/trollville/4465


Ignorance Is Bliss
Posts: 12
Joined: 2007-05-13
User is offlineOffline
That's bending it a little.

 

Quote:
WHY WE NEED YOUR HELP: SHOW EXPENSES $3,273.60

David Mills $1000 Lee $800 Slate $666 Justmoon Knowledge $666 Boatload Crosswords $501 Dr. Hudak $500 Rational Response Squad Oklahoma $500 Veronica Guy $500 Mr. XC $500 Scott $449 Caseagainstfaith.com $431 Evolvefish.com $266

= 6,779.00 - $3,273.60

= 3,505.4 excluding Google ads T-shirt sales. First Five Shows Subtotal With Shipping:$5.00 USD Pay with Credit Card ect.ect.ect

I'm simply curious about the motivation for this site although I doubt you'll be running off to the Bahamas soon I believe the question is valid. is this a money making business. based upon anti-faith principles ?

cult By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization

 

That's bending it a little Rev. By your logic, anyone that asks for donation is in it to make money for themselves.

Church included, or are you picking and choosing?


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
 I'm picking and choosing.

 I'm picking and choosing. I'm also casting the first stone with glee. "Universal Life Church" Reverend Devilin. I'm a minister of atheism. and I like to testify brethren

I've just listened to one of the radio show's it starts in a remarkably similar way to any TV evangelist. including the bad use of the English language 

"You are help supporting a good cause when you do this. we are working very hard to get rational thought spread to those who need it most.  And with your financial support we will be able to do that"

 

 


Tilberian
Moderator
Tilberian's picture
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2006-11-27
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: I'm

Rev_Devilin wrote:

I'm picking and choosing. I'm also casting the first stone with glee. "Universal Life Church" Reverend Devilin. I'm a minister of atheism. and I like to testify brethren

I've just listened to one of the radio show's it starts in a remarkably similar way to any TV evangelist. including the bad use of the English language

"You are help supporting a good cause when you do this. we are working very hard to get rational thought spread to those who need it most. And with your financial support we will be able to do that"

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? TV evangelists have proven remarkably adept at extracting funds for their cause - it would make sense to steal some pages from their book.

The difference between the RRS and TV blow-dries? The RRS doesn't scare kids and little old ladies with threats of hell if they fail to give. They also don't claim to miraculously heal anyone.  

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Tilberian

Tilberian wrote:
Rev_Devilin wrote:

I'm picking and choosing. I'm also casting the first stone with glee. "Universal Life Church" Reverend Devilin. I'm a minister of atheism. and I like to testify brethren

I've just listened to one of the radio show's it starts in a remarkably similar way to any TV evangelist. including the bad use of the English language

"You are help supporting a good cause when you do this. we are working very hard to get rational thought spread to those who need it most. And with your financial support we will be able to do that"

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? TV evangelists have proven remarkably adept at extracting funds for their cause - it would make sense to steal some pages from their book.

The difference between the RRS and TV blow-dries? The RRS doesn't scare kids and little old ladies with threats of hell if they fail to give. They also don't claim to miraculously heal anyone.

"working very hard to get rational thought spread to those who need it most " so it's money for the cause Tilberian. I see 

Tilberian maybe you can help. this is obviously done with the greatest transparency to avoid any untoward accusations. could you point me to the yearly statement ?


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Sapient has talked about

Sapient has talked about that funding page and how it isn't really up to date. Now with a yearly statement the biggest problem you will run into is the fact that would have real names on it. Whats wrong with real names? Death threats...

Tilberian's point was that RRS doesn't talk about how people are going to burn then ask for money. If I remember right the bible even says a person MUST give some amount so there isn't a comparison. Here you can give if you want, there you must give or burn.

I don't even remember the last time sapient talked about donations unless he was talking about someone who gave a large amount.



Now you do realize this whole "you're just as bad as they are" kind of argument is poor right? This is pretty much telling me you give up on any real argument and just want to drag us down to the same level.


Tilberian
Moderator
Tilberian's picture
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2006-11-27
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin

Rev_Devilin wrote:

"working very hard to get rational thought spread to those who need it most " so it's money for the cause Tilberian. I see

Tilberian maybe you can help. this is obviously done with the greatest transparency to avoid any untoward accusations. could you point me to the yearly statement ?

Y'know what Rev? If Sapient and Kelly were spending every cent on cocaine and hookers I wouldn't give a rat's ass as long as the website stays up. As far as I'm concerned, this presence on the net is worth every penny they collect.

Why don't you lay your cards on the table and state clearly your interest in all this?

 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
On another note, since the

On another note, since the RRS is not a 501(c)3 organization, any accouting is purely "complimentary" since it is not required.

Yup.  The folks that donate here don't even get a tax deduction!

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Tilberian wrote:

Tilberian wrote:

Y'know what Rev? If Sapient and Kelly were spending every cent on cocaine and hookers I wouldn't give a rat's ass as long as the website stays up. As far as I'm concerned, this presence on the net is worth every penny they collect.

Why don't you lay your cards on the table and state clearly your interest in all this?

Glad to Tilberian hypocrisy read your own statement. you happily admit to blindly following the money making cause. if this was another web site and another money making cause undoubtedly you would condemn it. "Religion itself is nothing more than a moneymaking scam " first principles of any religious organization get some devoted followers and start raking in the money. atheism is a faith that uses logic and science to explain the fundamental questions of life. Christianity Judaism Islam are faiths that use magical books of fairy tales to explain these fundamental questions. Christianity Judaism Islam atheism. at there're root are all based in faith. Tilberian you are a devoted follower of a faith-based organization that's making money. excuse me for playing devil's advocate but there are obvious parallels

Voiderest wrote:

Now you do realize this whole "you're just as bad as they are" kind of argument is poor right? This is pretty much telling me you give up on any real argument and just want to drag us down to the same level.

Voiderest I'm just pointing out you'll already at the same level no dragging needed

Susan wrote:

On another note, since the RRS is not a 501(c)3 organization, any accouting is purely "complimentary" since it is not required.

Yup. The folks that donate here don't even get a tax deduction!

If the intention of this organization is nonprofit then surely it should register as a charity so its followers can get tax deduction

 

 


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
pariahjane wrote: I'm not

pariahjane wrote:

I'm not quite sure why you're so hell bent on the whole cult angle. It's not even close to being a cult.

 

Tilberian 1 wrote:

Cult = give us ALL your money and never talk to your friends and family.

RRS = give us something if you can and if you can't no biggy

 

Tilberian 2 wrote:

Y'know what Rev? If Sapient and Kelly were spending every cent on cocaine and hookers I wouldn't give a rat's ass as long as the website stays up

 

Pariahjane first the denial (1) then so what if I am (2) this organization any organization of this nature will always be skating on very thin ice. as by its very nature it attracts devoted followers to the cause. to suggest "It's not even close to being a cult" I believe would be incorrect and you may wish to revise it to something more appropriate

 

 

 

 

 


JCE
Bronze Member
JCE's picture
Posts: 1219
Joined: 2007-03-20
User is offlineOffline
I think the bottom line

I think the bottom line here is that it really doesn't matter, does it?  Those that donate do so because they want to support the RRS.  This allows everyone to participate whether they subscribe or not.

As far as comparing this to a cult - wrong.  No one here tells me what to think.  Ever.  I am free to debate, learn, disagree or even leave if I want.  

I suppose you could compare it to an anti-religious religious organization, but then I think they should apply for the non-profit status.  Funny, though, I think they might be denied. 


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: Glad to

Rev_Devilin wrote:
Glad to Tilberian hypocrisy read your own statement. you happily admit to blindly following the money making cause. if this was another web site and another money making cause undoubtedly you would condemn it. "Religion itself is nothing more than a moneymaking scam " first principles of any religious organization get some devoted followers and start raking in the money. atheism is a faith that uses logic and science to explain the fundamental questions of life. Christianity Judaism Islam are faiths that use magical books of fairy tales to explain these fundamental questions. Christianity Judaism Islam atheism. at there're root are all based in faith. Tilberian you are a devoted follower of a faith-based organization that's making money. excuse me for playing devil's advocate but there are obvious parallels

Now you are saying 'atheism' is based on faith... Btw the charge hypocrisy of has been done before.

Quote:
Voiderest I'm just pointing out you'll already at the same level no dragging needed

So what does that make you Reverend (minister of atheism)? Personally I don't see why any atheist would be apart of any church especially a leader of one. Here you tell us we are apart of an anti-religion money making scheme, but you are an atheist playing along with the religious as your job.

Quote:
If the intention of this organization is nonprofit then surely it should register as a charity so its followers can get tax deduction

Non-profit has a lot of disadvantages. One someone would have to put there real name on the paper work and that is a matter of public record. Two no more political talk. No, it doesn't matter that churches do it and get away with it, the RRS wouldn't.


Tarpan
Special Agent
Posts: 26
Joined: 2006-06-06
User is offlineOffline
Can we get back on topic?

Can we get back on topic?

I'd like to know more about this atheist porn site.  Atheist chicks are far more sexy.


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Hi

Hi Voiderest

http://www.themonastery.org/

The Reverend title comes from the above site. were you give your e-mail address to become a ordained minister. it's nondenominational in fact no belief in anything is request. it is not my vocation I'm a factory worker. I have not now in the past nor do I intend in the future to make any money out of being a minister. I just found it to be a humus concept and I sill do " minister of atheism "

"Now you are saying 'atheism' is based on faith "

Atheism is based on faith. I will not deny verifiable truth. for any personal belief system I might have.  wiil you ?  

"it doesn't matter that churches do it and get away with it, the RRS wouldn't. "

have they tried ? 


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: Atheism

Rev_Devilin wrote:
Atheism is based on faith. I will not deny verifiable truth. for any personal belief system I might have.
What do atheists have faith in?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: Atheism

Rev_Devilin wrote:
Atheism is based on faith. I will not deny verifiable truth. for any personal belief system I might have. wiil you ?

How so? Have you bought into the idea you have faith in your car the same way a theist has faith in their god?

Quote:
have they tried ?

I don't think the co-founders are dumb enough to try. You may not realize it but there have been groups (however short a life span or how small) formed to destroy the RRS and they are looking for anyway to do it.


AbandonMyPeace
Posts: 324
Joined: 2007-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin

Rev_Devilin wrote:

"Universal Life Church" Reverend

 

HAH! Me to! Thats what the reverend stuff is about in my avatar lol.  


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
AiiA wrote:

AiiA wrote:
Rev_Devilin wrote:
Atheism is based on faith. I will not deny verifiable truth. for any personal belief system I might have.
What do atheists have faith in?

Reality

http://www.quantum.at/news/detailview/article/7/losing-a-grip-on-reality.html

 

{FIXED} 

 


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
"How so? Have you bought

"How so? Have you bought into the idea you have faith in your car the same way a theist has faith in their god?"

 faith in your own existence. and what you perceived as reality is reality

 

"I don't think the co-founders are dumb enough to try. You may not realize it but there have been groups (however short a life span or how small) formed to destroy the RRS and they are looking for anyway to do it."

 I was unaware of this. but wouldn't this in itself call for greater clarity in this organization

 


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Really faith in

Rev_Devilin wrote:
faith in your own existence. and what you perceived as reality is reality

Really faith in reality.

Well I know I'm not 100% sure on reality, but it doesn't take much "faith" for a person to know they exist and realize they are in an enviornment. God on the other hand... Well what reasoning do they base things on? I can poke the world around me can you poke god?

Oh so whatever I think is going on is going on? This would mean everyone is right and wrong at the same time. Good luck with that.

Quote:
I was unaware of this. but wouldn't this in itself call for greater clarity in this organization

How so? Because Sapient doesn't want to be stalked or be bound to terms set forth by the government he wouldn't otherwise be bound by?


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Voiderest

"Really faith in reality.

Well I know I'm not 100% sure on reality, but it doesn't take much "faith"

But that's all it takes. I cannot deny this element of faith. although I consider myself a atheist. it's there so I must except it. to deny truth would be hypocritical. (I am sometimes hypocritical but I try not to be)

"Oh so whatever I think is going on is going on? This would mean everyone is right and wrong at the same time. Good luck with that."

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ?

"How so? Because Sapient doesn't want to be stalked or be bound to terms set forth by the government he wouldn't otherwise be bound by?"

I need time to think about this, I've only recently become aware of the real physical danger atheists may have in the USA.


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
AbandonMyPeace

AbandonMyPeace wrote:
Rev_Devilin wrote:

"Universal Life Church" Reverend

 

HAH! Me to! Thats what the reverend stuff is about in my avatar lol.

Wink Testify brethren


ObnoxiousBitch
Superfan
ObnoxiousBitch's picture
Posts: 115
Joined: 2006-02-22
User is offlineOffline
The Patrician wrote: Dude,

The Patrician wrote:

Dude, if they wanted to make money this would be a porn site.

 Next question.

Well, these demented fuckwits are making a good living for themselves, that's for sure...  There's nothing quite like attending an adult industry event and getting proselytized by these jerks for Jesus. The founders made a shitload of money with porn sites before they got Jesus.  Now they spend their time convincing people in the adult biz to leave the industry and come to Jesus; and among the "civilians" (i.e. porn consumers) that they can help them get over "porn addiction." Although I suppose if you're gullible enough to believe there's a god not only watching you, but is going to put a black mark in your "book of life" for every instance of bishop-flogging, I guess you'd be naive enough to believe that only Jesus can save you.

While I can't say whether the founders and core members of XXXChurch truly converted or not, I've gotta admit it's quite the racket! Ex-porn stars to do the "booth babe" thing, and a percentage (or maybe ALL) of the sales of filtering software for all of the guys who (mistakenly) believe their time's better spent denying their natural instincts and thumping a bible than whacking their weasels.

 Oh, and I'd just LOVE to get a review of the Porn Debate between Ron Jeremy and the "Porn Pastor" Craig Gross - if any of you happen to be in cities on their tour and attend (if just to heckle!).

 

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: But

Rev_Devilin wrote:
But that's all it takes. I cannot deny this element of faith. although I consider myself a atheist. it's there so I must except it. to deny truth would be hypocritical. (I am sometimes hypocritical but I try not to be)

You might want to define faith and explain how you have faith in reality.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ?

It sounded like your argument centers around subjectivism. Almost as if you are trying to say because reality can be subjective that means one must have faith in reality.


ObnoxiousBitch
Superfan
ObnoxiousBitch's picture
Posts: 115
Joined: 2006-02-22
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: I need

Rev_Devilin wrote:
I need time to think about this, I've only recently become aware of the real physical danger atheists may have in the USA.

Welcome to the most religious country in the world outside of those run by fundy Muslims. For all their whining about discrimination and persecution, I'm quite sure it's more likely that I (or any other unapologetic, vocal and "out" atheist) would be the victim of a "religiously motivated" attack, either on our persons or property.

Just out of curiosity... how many here have walked out to their cars to find that one of their Darwin fish or godless bumper stickers has been removed or defaced? Or noticed that theirs is the only car in the parking lot with a Chick tract stuck in the window? I know it's happened to me more than once - and I've only been "out" for about 5 years.

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote:

Rev_Devilin wrote:

AiiA wrote:
Rev_Devilin wrote:
Atheism is based on faith. I will not deny verifiable truth. for any personal belief system I might have.
What do atheists have faith in?

Reality

http://www.quantum.at/news/detailview/article/7/losing-a-grip-on-reality.html

 

{FIXED}

Hmmm, I think most people have faith in what is real, It's not exclusively an atheist's attribute.

Although theists also have faith in reality, a contingent faith (I can't see how anybody could not have a contingent faith in reality, after all, everyone expects the sun to shine tomorrow); theists also have noncontingent faith or religious faith. It is a faith in "nothing" or they call it god. It is based on nothing.

Faith in reality or contingent faith is based on past experience. I have faith the sun will shine tomorrow because the sun has shone everyday in the past by experience. No one has had any empirical experience with a god, thus, religious faith has no contingency.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


jive turkey
Theist
jive turkey's picture
Posts: 41
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
AiiA wrote:theists also

AiiA wrote:
theists also have noncontingent faith or religious faith. It is a faith in "nothing" or they call it god. It is based on nothing.

If it were truly based on nothing, it would not exist. Since it clearly does exist, it must be based on something.

AiiA wrote:
Faith in reality or contingent faith is based on past experience. I have faith the sun will shine tomorrow because the sun has shone everyday in the past by experience. No one has had any empirical experience with a god, thus, religious faith has no contingency. </p>

The practice of faith in God is also contingent (or appears to be by its adherents). One has problems or hopes or aspirations, one trusts God with them, one takes action (enlightened by God's grace and the wisdom of others) and then a positive outcome is reached (often different and better than the outcome imagined by the individual)….lather, rinse, repeat...until theistic faith is based on past experience. One may argue that the outcome would have taken place without the "trusting God" step but why try to get someone to change a belief system that's working for them?

/peace


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
It doesn't quite work like

It doesn't quite work like that jive Turkey

faith in one's own existence is a prerequisite. we have no choice but to accept that what one perceive as reality is reality

So from this we move on, faith is still require because the foundation of the philosophy of one's existence is based in faith. but one must strive to remove as much faith as possible to discover the truth. adding more faith will distance you from any possibility of discovering the truth

Historically this has been shown to be true in itself


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Voiderest

Voiderest wrote:

Rev_Devilin wrote:
But that's all it takes. I cannot deny this element of faith. although I consider myself a atheist. it's there so I must except it. to deny truth would be hypocritical. (I am sometimes hypocritical but I try not to be)

You might want to define faith and explain how you have faith in reality.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ?

It sounded like your argument centers around subjectivism. Almost as if you are trying to say because reality can be subjective that means one must have faith in reality.

 Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

 Faith my definition. belief in that which cannot be proved

Subjectivism maybe to constrictive as a definition.  I'll quote my reply to jive Turkey. for an understanding of the way I perceive things

Rev_Devilin wrote:

It doesn't quite work like that jive Turkey

faith in one's own existence is a prerequisite. we have no choice but to accept that what one perceive as reality is reality

So from this we move on, faith is still require because the foundation of the philosophy of one's existence is based in faith. but one must strive to remove as much faith as possible to discover the truth. adding more faith will distance you from any possibility of discovering the truth

Historically this has been shown to be true in itself

 


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
AiiA wrote: Hmmm, I think

AiiA wrote:

Hmmm, I think most people have faith in what is real, It's not exclusively an atheist's attribute.

It is attribute we subscribe to. and I cannot wiil-not deny the truth of it. thus faith 

(in philosophy the truth will set you free. in reality quite the opposite effect may happen please use caution with truth in public venues ) 


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: The

Rev_Devilin wrote:

The business of religion vs the business of anti-religion

 Hands down the business of religion wins, a smart conman gets himself involved in the business of religion, and honest man gets himself involved in that which isn't as financially rewarding for the betterment of society.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Tarpan
Special Agent
Posts: 26
Joined: 2006-06-06
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote: Hands down

Sapient wrote:

Hands down the business of religion wins, a smart conman gets himself involved in the business of religion, and honest man gets himself involved in that which isn't as financially rewarding for the betterment of society.

 

I don't know if you guys are non-profit or not, but I don't see a problem in trying to earn a salary off of activism.  Activism needs full-time members to create any real noise and to push things along.  If people are capable of accepting donations and people support their methods enough to donate, then that's advantageous for the movement as a whole.

Profiting from it is a whole nother story.  But people can and will be profitable from it either way.  Book writers, movie makers, activists, there's always going to be some that are going to take advantage of hype to earn a buck.

But you look at the numbers, and Sapient is right..the smart conman gets himself into religion to earn his buck.  At least for now. 


Voided
Posts: 1195
Joined: 2006-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Rev_Devilin wrote: Faith my

Rev_Devilin wrote:
Faith my definition. belief in that which cannot be proved

So you do not think it is possible to prove you exist?

Quote:
faith in one's own existence is a prerequisite. we have no choice but to accept that what one perceive as reality is reality

I am 100% sure I exist, just as you and anyone else is 100% sure they exist.

Cogito ergo sum?

When it comes to other people or other aspects of my reality I am not 100% sure, but I do not have anything else to go on.

Quote:
So from this we move on, faith is still require because the foundation of the philosophy of one's existence is based in faith. but one must strive to remove as much faith as possible to discover the truth. adding more faith will distance you from any possibility of discovering the truth

When most theist say they have faith in god they mean they are 100% sure yet do not hold it to the same standards as other things. I'm not sure if by faith you mean "something that I think is probably true based on logic and experience" or "something that I think is true"

Now lets say for a second you are right, everyone must have faith. Your argument against us is that because we have some faith we can't criticize other's faith. If thats true I have faith that they are wrong. You can't criticize me now. Then again if everything we were saying here was based on faith then you shouldn't have been criticizing us to begin with.

Of course that wasn't your beginning argument, it was just used as your proof the RRS is a cult. However that doesn't help you because that would make any org a cult...


Rev_Devilin
Rev_Devilin's picture
Posts: 485
Joined: 2007-05-16
User is offlineOffline
Voiderest wrote: I am 100%

Voiderest wrote:

I am 100% sure I exist

 

Voiderest you are able to dismiss the possibility that you are not a virtual mind. thus proving without doubt or uncertainty that you think so therefore you exist. then please elaborate on this !00% certain and doubt free knowledge

Voiderest wrote:
Now lets say for a second you are right, everyone must have faith. Your argument against us is that because we have some faith we can't criticize other's faith. If thats true I have faith that they are wrong. You can't criticize me now. Then again if everything we were saying here was based on faith then you shouldn't have been criticizing us to begin with.

I like your logic

My personal goal is to dismiss as much faith as possible. while being ever mindful of the truth. I exist in a faith-based existence. so I also try to avoid the hypocrisy trap

ie to suggest atheism isn't based in faith would be apocryphal

Criticizing faith leads to the truth and I belief it should be encouraged.

 Thus my original premise was about money not faith

 Criticizing faith and profiting from this criticism. brings into question the motivation for this criticism