Creation of Satan?

thingy
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Creation of Satan?

I might have to go out and buy a bible (just ordered God Delusion and the FSM bible yesterday however I was hoping to get through those first) because dassercha's thread "Satan's Fall" has caused me great curiosity.  Without being able to look it up myself (I feel searching the 'net will just lead me on a wild goose chase of fundy websites), I thought I'd ask here and hope somebody could clear things up for me.

The story of Satan and his falling, I'm quite familiar with it and have been told many times during my upbringing ... but I can't for the life of me recall anything about it in the Bible.  In Genesis, the first book of the Old Testament, Lucifer had already fallen and become Satan prior to his tempting of Eve yet this is where the bible starts.  So where did this story of him come from, is it even in the Bible or is it just an old wives tail that the fundy's have falsly come to take ... well ... as Gospel!

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Dabura13
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You don't have to go and

You don't have to go and buy a bible. Just go to www.biblegateway.com and read it there.

It'll save some money. 

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thingy
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Ahh, thanks.

Ahh, thanks.


The Spork
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The typical passages cited

The typical passages cited as relating to the story of Satan's fall are:

Revelation 12:7-13

Luke 10:17-24 - In particular, 18: "[Jesus] replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'"

Isaiah 14:12-17 - literally speaking to the king of Babylon, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall

Ezekiel 28:11-19 - literally speaking to the king of Tyre, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall; perhaps stronger than the other passages, as it refers to a "guardian cherub" who grew proud and was thrown to earth

 So no, there is nowhere in the bible where it says "once upon a time, there was an angel who did some bad stuff and got kicked out, and now he's the devil" in any sort of undeniably obvious way.  Those passages are the ones the story comes from, however, so it isn't just a made up wives' tale that has no base in scripture (rather, as I'm sure most of you believe, it is a made up wives' tale that is based in scripture).  Whether or not you think those verses are BS when it comes to the story of Satan, that's where it originated as far as anyone can tell.

By the way, I found this information with a quick Google of "Satan's fall."


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Check out Zoroastrianism.

Check out Zoroastrianism. They had concepts such as paradise, bad guy, good guy in the sky LONG before the Jews/xians who want to claim exclusivity to this. Logic seeeeeeeeeeeeez? No, sorry, they can't, but they insist it was revealed to them first. Hmmmmm.

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thingy
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The Spork wrote: The

The Spork wrote:

The typical passages cited as relating to the story of Satan's fall are:

Revelation 12:7-13

Luke 10:17-24 - In particular, 18: "[Jesus] replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'"

Isaiah 14:12-17 - literally speaking to the king of Babylon, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall

Ezekiel 28:11-19 - literally speaking to the king of Tyre, often interpreted as also referring to Satan's fall; perhaps stronger than the other passages, as it refers to a "guardian cherub" who grew proud and was thrown to earth

So no, there is nowhere in the bible where it says "once upon a time, there was an angel who did some bad stuff and got kicked out, and now he's the devil" in any sort of undeniably obvious way. Those passages are the ones the story comes from, however, so it isn't just a made up wives' tale that has no base in scripture (rather, as I'm sure most of you believe, it is a made up wives' tale that is based in scripture). Whether or not you think those verses are BS when it comes to the story of Satan, that's where it originated as far as anyone can tell.

By the way, I found this information with a quick Google of "Satan's fall."

 So it's just as I feared, discussing Satan, his role & even existance/story/logic is impossible as there's nothing to back up thoughts and opinions on either side.  The religious nutters will just be relying on heresay and acting as though it is "gospel truth".

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Couple things guys 1.

Couple things guys

1. There are basically only TWO references in the bible that are thought to refer about the fall of Satan in the bible; Revelation 12 and Ezekiel 28.  The reference you put about Isaiah is not valid nor is the one from Luke.  Luke was taken out of context as Jesus was speaking to those he had sent out to spread the word and when they returned and spoke of the things they had done, he gave them his vision of evil being defeated. 

2. As to Isaiah, this is a common mistranslation about the word Lucifer.  Lucifer DOES NOT EQUAL Satan.  (there is a thread about this here).

3. Ezekiel, as explained in the thread above, may not have been written with Satan in mind either.  A common trend throughout the bible is to make reference to people, not spiritual beings (bringing up a point, Satan as an angel is also a misconception - that is not in the bible either) - reference the following thread

4. As to Revelation, well because of the symbolism in that book and its generally symbolic nature, its a bit hard to really understand if that chapter is past or future.  Generally, it is not a book that is referred to often because of the possibilities for misinterpretation so, basically, nope...don't use it.

 I'm not exactly sure as to why Zoroastrianism is brought up time and time again since Judism came first by a few hundred years with Abraham.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Couple

razorphreak wrote:

Couple things guys

1. There are basically only TWO references in the bible that are thought to refer about the fall of Satan in the bible; Revelation 12 and Ezekiel 28. The reference you put about Isaiah is not valid nor is the one from Luke. Luke was taken out of context as Jesus was speaking to those he had sent out to spread the word and when they returned and spoke of the things they had done, he gave them his vision of evil being defeated.

2. As to Isaiah, this is a common mistranslation about the word Lucifer. Lucifer DOES NOT EQUAL Satan. (there is a thread about this here).

3. Ezekiel, as explained in the thread above, may not have been written with Satan in mind either. A common trend throughout the bible is to make reference to people, not spiritual beings (bringing up a point, Satan as an angel is also a misconception - that is not in the bible either) - reference the following thread

4. As to Revelation, well because of the symbolism in that book and its generally symbolic nature, its a bit hard to really understand if that chapter is past or future. Generally, it is not a book that is referred to often because of the possibilities for misinterpretation so, basically, nope...don't use it.

I'm not exactly sure as to why Zoroastrianism is brought up time and time again since Judism came first by a few hundred years with Abraham.

Raz:

I posted this on the "other" thread concerning this: 

"Dont wanna beat a dead horse, but my years of researching this tells me that the captive Israelites in Babylon borrowed heavily from the Zoroastrianism/Sumerian/Babylonian myths to form their beliefs. If you have peer reviewed scholarly works pointing to the contrary,  by all means, share. I am here to learn. 

 If their god was unique and the *ONE TRUE* god, wouldn't that god have  attempted to look just a little different than those others? Just say'n ((shrugg)) Tongue out"

 

 

 

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razorphreak wrote: I'm not

razorphreak wrote:
I'm not exactly sure as to why Zoroastrianism is brought up time and time again since Judism came first by a few hundred years with Abraham.

Apparently, devil mythology came into Judaism after influence from Zoroastrianism. Before then, Satan was God's prosecuting angel (in Job) and the snake in Eden was just an animal that got a bit above it's station and has been an enemy of mankind ever since.

It was the influence of Zoroastrianism, among other mythologies that embedded themselves into the Jewish culture, that led to the re-intepreting. (so I've been told... you probably know more about this than me. Smile)


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The story of Lucifer is

The story of Lucifer is told piece by piece throughout the entire scriptures.  The bulk of the story is told in the Book of Isaiah Chapter 14:12-16

 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, sond of the morning!  How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken nations.  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most high.  Yet thou shalt be brought down to the sides of the pit.  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying 'is the man that made the earth tremble, that did shake kingdoms?"


razorphreak
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tree-sitter wrote: The

tree-sitter wrote:
The story of Lucifer...

tree may I suggest you re-read this thread, in full, and please visit the threads I made reference to...especially this one:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/4534

There is a bit more research you need to understand about Satan, beginning with the fact that his name is not Lucifer. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire