Attributes of God

My Name is Chelsea
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Attributes of God

For the sake of argument:

Stipulation 1: The universe had a beginning
Stipulation 2: This beginning was caused by a creator.
Stipulation 3: The first life on earth was created.
Stipulation 4: The creator created, no other traits are stipulated. I.e. Any further interaction, intervention or attributes must be proven.

I am interested in having a polite rational discussion with theists about why they believe what they believe about god.
Here are questions I have but feel free to ignore them and address a topic that is near and dear to your heart.
Do you believe god is loving? Why?
Do you believe god is omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent? Why?
Do you believe god listens to and acts on petitions (prayer)? Why?
Do you believe god is infallible? Why?

Warnings:
I am not interested in debating whether atheists “believe” there is no god. I am not interested in debating evolution. I am not interested in debating burden of proof. So if you bring any of that up I am likely to ignore it. Not necessarily because I agree with you or can’t prove you wrong. I just don’t want this discussion to get too terribly far off track.

I am not stipulating the veracity of any religious text. So if you believe something about god because a book says I would appreciate any other observations that support your belief.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Robert A. Heinlein


Magus
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Light / water

l.mcbryar wrote:
i have to question your thoughts on the idea of food. would it not take, as evolution itself claims, a large time, for these single celled organisms to adapt to eating? so how does it become a quick thing? and also, food is a basic need for survival. energy is passed from one creature to another, so therefore, eating would have had to have been a need from the begining. this is another part of the cell that would have had to come together from the beginning. many accredited scientists today say the chances of all of these parts of a cell comming together randomly would be astronomical. virtually impossible.

This confuses me.   There are plenty of things that do not eat. Don't plants for example absorb energy directly from light.  Food isn't a means for survivle for the plant.  Other life isn't essential for life to survive.  Finite energy creates finite creatures. I don't see how or why eating would be needed for a beginning.  Don't take my word for it I could be wrong.

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


Pacific PanDeist
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It surely does!! Consider:

It surely does!! Consider: if God created the Universe by becoming the Universe, this was done with a purpose, a necessary purpose for a massively powerful--but not an all-powerful--being....

 

What can that purpose be? I think to answer a question that such a being can not, otherwise.... I think to experience existence as the Universe and to therefore understand what it is to face limitations, to face fear and overcome it with courage (God alone has nothing to fear), to face pain and overcome it by finding comfort (how could God alone be made to feel pain?)....

 

So, God puts everything that it is into a Universe set forth with laws of physics that make it inevitable that life will arise somewhere (perhaps many places), that life will evolve through natural selection, that intelligence will evolve through this same process, and ultimately that thinking beings will be able to reflect on their experiences (I often wonder, tho, if the intellect that would suit God's needs is still far from evolving on this planet!!)

 

Pardon the pun, but in the beginning I don't think God knows good and evil from Adam.... so, in essence, we exist to TEACH God what it is to feel all these things, and since God is the Universe and we are all part of God, all of these things are part of a collective experience for God that we create; i.e. if I strike you, I strike God; if I bring you joy, I bring God joy.... none of these are immediate, but all experiences of the Universe are recorded by God now to be synthesized and understood after the Universe has run its course and God has returned to consciousness....

 

And when God does come to the stage of synthesizing this experience, all who have ever existed will share in this process; and all will experience the joy, and the pain, that they have created.... if I strike you, I strike God; and if I strike God, I strike myself, for that will be part of my experience in the next world; hence, I strike no one, and if another wishes to strike me, I admonish them but do not take steps to prevent them, for they ultimately strike themselves!!


RhadTheGizmo
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Hey Chelsea-- hope you don't

Hey Chelsea-- hope you don't mind me "jumping in" to give my two, simplistic, cents.

Quote:
Do you believe god is loving? Why?

Yes.

Because I can love.

Quote:
Do you believe god is omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent? Why?

I perceive him to be omnipotent.

I believe that if he is omnipotent then, as a function of this, he can also be omniscient and omnipresent.. if he chose to be.

Quote:
Do you believe god listens to and acts on petitions (prayer)? Why?

I believe he listens to me-- I do not believe that he does any act that he was not already willing or planning on doing.

Quote:
Do you believe god is infallible? Why?

God? Not necessarily.. If I have accepted him as real, then what reason would I have to believe him to be otherwise? So it's sort of a unknowable... even as God is, accept, with less implications.


Piper2000ca
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Pacific PanDeist wrote: It

Pacific PanDeist wrote:


It surely does!! Consider: if God created the Universe by becoming the Universe, this was done with a purpose, a necessary purpose for a massively powerful--but not an all-powerful--being....

What can that purpose be? I think to answer a question that such a being can not, otherwise.... I think to experience existence as the Universe and to therefore understand what it is to face limitations, to face fear and overcome it with courage (God alone has nothing to fear), to face pain and overcome it by finding comfort (how could God alone be made to feel pain?)....


So, God created the universe, so that we can understand the universes limitations?  There's tons of problems with this.  Firstly, if God created us to understand the universes limitations (the limitations that he himself has created), then why do it in a way that causes pain, and death?  Would you teach your son about pain and suffering by killing his pet puppy?

The second problem is in the limitations themselves.  As I've already mentioned, if God created the universe, then he created the limitations themselves, which brings us back to what I said before.  Why create limitations that cause suffering?

Pacific PanDeist wrote:

So, God puts everything that it is into a Universe set forth with laws of physics that make it inevitable that life will arise somewhere (perhaps many places), that life will evolve through natural selection, that intelligence will evolve through this same process, and ultimately that thinking beings will be able to reflect on their experiences (I often wonder, tho, if the intellect that would suit God's needs is still far from evolving on this planet!!)

Pardon the pun, but in the beginning I don't think God knows good and evil from Adam.... so, in essence, we exist to TEACH God what it is to feel all these things, and since God is the Universe and we are all part of God, all of these things are part of a collective experience for God that we create; i.e. if I strike you, I strike God; if I bring you joy, I bring God joy.... none of these are immediate, but all experiences of the Universe are recorded by God now to be synthesized and understood after the Universe has run its course and God has returned to consciousness....


God didn't understand good and evil?  So much for omnipotent, and omniscient.  Could God not see what would happen after he created humans?

Pacific PanDeist wrote:

And when God does come to the stage of synthesizing this experience, all who have ever existed will share in this process; and all will experience the joy, and the pain, that they have created.... if I strike you, I strike God; and if I strike God, I strike myself, for that will be part of my experience in the next world; hence, I strike no one, and if another wishes to strike me, I admonish them but do not take steps to prevent them, for they ultimately strike themselves!!


Well, that just sounds like wishfull thinking.  I don't suppose you have proof for any of this?


Piper2000ca
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RhadTheGizmo wrote: Hey

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
Hey Chelsea-- hope you don't mind me "jumping in" to give my two, simplistic, cents.

Quote:
Do you believe god is loving? Why?

Yes.

Because I can love.


That hardly proves that God would be all loving. Indeed it could be argued that this is proof that he is evil. The argument could be made that he created us to love, solely so that we could experience as much pain as possible.

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe god is omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent? Why?

I perceive him to be omnipotent.

I believe that if he is omnipotent then, as a function of this, he can also be omniscient and omnipresent.. if he chose to be.


I don't see how you perceive him to be omnipotent (short of simply believing it). As for the second part, that sounds fair enough. If you were all-powerfull, you should be able to make yourself all-seeing and all-present.

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe god listens to and acts on petitions (prayer)? Why?

I believe he listens to me-- I do not believe that he does any act that he was not already willing or planning on doing.


So he listens to you, but it doesn't matter because he will just do what he was planning to do anyways?

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe god is infallible? Why?

God? Not necessarily.. If I have accepted him as real, then what reason would I have to believe him to be otherwise? So it's sort of a unknowable... even as God is, accept, with less implications.


Huh? It sound like you think that infallible means not real, infallible means that he and all his actions are perfect in every way.


Jaden
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My Name is Chelsea wrote: I

My Name is Chelsea wrote:

I understand infinity. What I don’t understand is why god has to be infinite. Unless you mean the Judeo-Christian/Muslim god. In which case I can see the textual basis for this necessity.

If God, and he must be if He is the Creator, is eternal. If God is not material, then he is a Spirit, and also is the "highest being possible" then He must be without limit. 

What limit could you put on God?  Maybe I just do not understand your objection. Can you explain further what you mean.

Quote:
I guess my difficulty is I can imagine a god that could create just for the heck of it. Or a god who could create for a purpose and that purpose could include not caring about the happiness of each individual creation. I think looking at the world around us it seems obvious that if there is an omni-god, he doesn’t care much about individual happiness.

If there is a God who creates purposefully, then by His nature, would He not have to care about all of His Creation, including indiviual happiness?  You are asking a question of the problem of evil, which is a long topic, tackled by many, including Darwin. Hume is a good read, try Dialogs Concerning Natural Religion.  He will address the problem and show how theism has failed to answer his questions.  But of course, that does not answer your question. 

Tell me your definition of good and evil, and tell me what happiness.  And I will see if that is where the problem lay.  Also, I do not know if you know the distinctions between Moral Evil and Natural Evil... and "divine justice and mercy." These are not difficult topics, just long topics, and I can try my best on a forum.  

 You did say "I do not see how God can..." I find this interesting.  If you do not believe in God, why and how can you make that statement.  (I am not suggesting that I know what you believe in).  You would have no reasonable basis to make it, you should merely say "God does not exist.  There is suffering in this world."


Quote:
I guess my difficulty here is understanding why god has to be all one or the other or even how he could be.

I obviously failed, so where is the problem in the proof, so I can address it.

Quote:
I would just have to disagree. I don’t see any reason why evil could not create.

Evil could create, but it would be good...Our standards of good and evil would be different.  I am not going to speculate on what this could mean, because I could not possibly tell you. God is the determiner of Good and Evil in Theism because of His Nature.  If in God's nature was different than as we currently know Him (assuming His existence) our standards would be different.  So it is not a matter of evil or good creating, it is a matter of the nature of the creator which determines good and evil.

Let me know if this helps.

 

Quote:
So basically if there is a god he has to be x,y and z because of the way the world is? I can understand that except that for me the world as it is (and many specific religious teachings) seem to contradict x or y or z or all three.

Well, many people have agreed with you on this.  But that was not your original posting.  You asked merely on the attributes of God, and there are more basic issues that need to be addressed before we can move forward on this.  I hope you understand why I am not going further.  (If we move forward, we are either going to end up right back here, or many steps back, because we are at a disagreement here). 

I do apologize for not responding sooner, I am a student, and it is finals time (I have 3, 25 page papers due at the end of this week) so I might not be on for awhile again. 


My Name is Chelsea
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Jaden wrote: If God, and he

Jaden wrote:

If God, and he must be if He is the Creator, is eternal. If God is not material, then he is a Spirit, and also is the "highest being possible" then He must be without limit.

What limit could you put on God? Maybe I just do not understand your objection. Can you explain further what you mean.
My objection is that I don’t see that a god has to be the highest possible being, higher than us for sure but not highest necessarily.

Quote:

If there is a God who creates purposefully, then by His nature, would He not have to care about all of His Creation, including indiviual happiness?

No. Smiling I don’t mean to be difficult but one does not necessarily follow from the other for me. Perhaps you could explain how you go from creator to caring?
Quote:
You are asking a question of the problem of evil, which is a long topic, tackled by many, including Darwin. Hume is a good read, try Dialogs Concerning Natural Religion. He will address the problem and show how theism has failed to answer his questions. But of course, that does not answer your question.
Perhaps I will look into reading that, when I next have spare time. I am also working on graduating right now.
Personally I can think of a very easy answer to the problem of evil. God doesn’t care about each and every individual. It isn’t a very satisfying answer though Smiling.
Quote:

Tell me your definition of good and evil, and tell me what happiness. And I will see if that is where the problem lay. Also, I do not know if you know the distinctions between Moral Evil and Natural Evil... and "divine justice and mercy." These are not difficult topics, just long topics, and I can try my best on a forum.

Definition of good and evil? That is a tough one. To do good is to make people’s lives better, to do evil is to make people’s lives worse. Though nothing is ever that simple. I think that all good and evil are pretty subjective. What do you mean?
Natural evil vs. Moral evil. To me natural evil is not evil. Life is life, neither good nor evil, though it is often hard.
What do you mean by divine justice and mercy?

Quote:
You did say "I do not see how God can..." I find this interesting. If you do not believe in God, why and how can you make that statement. (I am not suggesting that I know what you believe in). You would have no reasonable basis to make it, you should merely say "God does not exist. There is suffering in this world."
I can make that statement because I have stipulated that a creator exists. I do not believe this but I see no evidence which precludes this. If I wish to discuss what people believe about god it is much easier to discuss this with his presence stipulated.


Quote:
Quote:
I guess my difficulty here is understanding why god has to be all one or the other or even how he could be.


I obviously failed, so where is the problem in the proof, so I can address it.
The difficulty lies in assumptions you are making. That god must be the highest possible being, that a creator must care for his creation…

Quote:

Evil could create, but it would be good...Our standards of good and evil would be different. <snip> So it is not a matter of evil or good creating, it is a matter of the nature of the creator which determines good and evil.
I am guessing this is based on the assumption that we get our sense of morals from god, which I don’t agree.

Quote:
Quote:
So basically if there is a god he has to be x,y and z because of the way the world is? I can understand that except that for me the world as it is (and many specific religious teachings) seem to contradict x or y or z or all three.


Well, many people have agreed with you on this. But that was not your original posting. You asked merely on the attributes of God, and there are more basic issues that need to be addressed before we can move forward on this. I hope you understand why I am not going further. (If we move forward, we are either going to end up right back here, or many steps back, because we are at a disagreement here).
I am curious about what people really believe about god and why. It wouldn’t be a discussion if I didn’t reply with what I thought about it. Smiling
Quote:

I do apologize for not responding sooner, I am a student, and it is finals time (I have 3, 25 page papers due at the end of this week) so I might not be on for awhile again.
Totally understood. Someday, hopefully soon, I will no longer be a student.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Robert A. Heinlein