Satan's Fall

dassercha
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Satan's Fall

This is not intended as a "GOTCHA." I really would like a theist's input.

Ok, God created Satan and all the angels in heaven before the Creation, correct?

Gen. 1 sez, "God created the heavens & the earth." So where did they all abide up until this point if they abide/ed in heaven eternally, but it was not created until "Day 1"?

But that's kind of an aside. Here's my question:

If Satan was God's right hand man, where did Satan get the thought/notion to attempt a usurption of power. That thought had to come from--(drumroll)--the Creator of all, right? Creator of all that is: thoughts, impulses, "thingys" from A to Z, Alpha and Omega.

So, if God was responsible for Satan's initial thought, God could have saved us all a whole lot of grief and just *POOF* taken Big S and his miniuons out, right? Gone, forever! Vanished! No trace. That would have set an example in heaven that if any other angels got any future "bright ideas," well...

Then, Adam and all his descendants could have lived happily ever after enjoying and basking in all of God's goodness and no one would even have the slightest notion of "evil." It's a win-win. No robots, no blind alegiance. Just happy, happy people.

Wait, isn't that what heaven is suppose to be like? Mmmmmm. Why all the hassle? Why the wait? Why destroy untold amounts of people from the "beginning" until present and I suppose future and condemn them to Hell, when it could have ALL been avoided with just one *POOF*?

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Before I begin, I would

Before I begin, I would just like to say that as you can tell from my picture, I am an atheist who is in no way using the following argument as any sort of propogation for the idea of God.

 

In christianity, the idea of God being inconsistent with evil in the world is called the inconsistent triangle. God cannot benevolent, omnipotent and omnisceint while evil still exists in the world

 

To reconcile, theologians came up with the theodicies, which attempt to explain God despite Satan and evil in the world.

 

I think the one you are referring to is the Iranean theodicy, which states that God gave humans the free will to do evil, and created the evil for them to choose to follow or ignore, because God was benevolent and wanted his creations to have choice. 

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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I know this subject as been

I know this subject as been debated ad nauseum here, but maybe new "Literalist theists" are seeing this for the first time and that's who I hope will clue me in.

There's several ways I could go on this, so I'll go here first: 

God created all: lucifer, angels, creation. Then, Satan's fall, adam/eve sinned, all descendants fell away from God, the flood, sodom/gomorrah, more killings, then 2000 years ago, the cross.

My point: 

All this seems pointless. Not life, but all the OT nonesense.

IF GOD IS JUST, WHY NOT REVEAL HIMSELF TO ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST A SELECT? Didn't feel like letting Tibetans in on the secret? South Americans, etc? According to the Fundy all these people are hellbound. Oh, didn't get the memo about Christ? Oops, too bad. Sorry! God didn't feel like taking the time to clue them in? Just massacre  everybody left & right? Come on, Fundys! Check your beliefs. Lots of scholars out there agree that those stories are not to be taken literally.

And why does god need to create angels and then people? Bored? Lonely? Why would an omnipredicate Supremeness need ANYTHING?

Rambling thoughts, I know, just frustrated by the illogicity of it all... 

 

 

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Where to start... well lets

Where to start... well lets see. First of all God is God he doesnt need a reason for creating us. He created Lucifer and rest of the angels and they were not forced to worship God. Lucifer decided to try to become better than God. God is not going to just make Satan " *poof* and dissappear. Where is the teaching in that? Oh you dont wanna worship me, but over throw me ok i'l just make u not exist anymore but you do not really get any punishment. Hence why he then created Hell and sent Lucifer...who was then known as Satan, to Hell for eternity along with the angels who followed satan, now known as DEMONS, with him. AS PUNISHMENT. 2nd of all God does not just "not care" bout those how do not know or never had the opportunity. As Christians in the Bible its startes our number one purpose on earth is to fulfillt he "Great Commision" which is to tell others about God. If people who never heard of God could just go to Heave anyways then there would be no point in God's Word, or "The Bible", & as christians we would be doing harm by taking God's Word to the people who do not know and giving them the chance to reject it.

Also we are given free will to choose to accept or reject God, to sin or not to sin. Just as satan had that option, Adam & Eve did too as well. Yes the Bible says God is all knowing. He doesnt chose what you will do He just knows that whether you chose to go left or right, either way he knows the outcome. That is why he has his Holy Spirit to convict when u are doing wrong so that you will turn back and go the right way. but if u deny God and the Holy spirt and his Son Jesus Christ..therefor the Trinity, then you will not be able to experince this. How can u say God doesnt exist if u dont ever experience Him??

I watched the clip from "Nightline" or w/e it was on this page and Brain Flemming talked about his reasoning behind all of this. He says that teens are being targeted by religion and miserable or what not from it. Anyone who is a TRUE BELIEVER AND FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ, lives everyday best he/she can for God, and has a true relationship with Jesus, is not miserable bout it. And those of us like that, KNOW that God exist cuz He has done many things in our life. In the NT it says that anyone who is a born again believe of God...a TRUE born again believer then he will never fully turn from God, but that anyone who at some point claimed to believe in God was never a true believer. So those who claim they "were christian" but never saw the existance of God were not true Christians, because if they were they would have had a relationship with Jesus & been evident that God is real in their life. Same goes for those who just never gave God a chance. How can God reveal himself to you if your heart, mind, body and soul is closed to him and u blasphemy Him? God is always revealing Himself to everyone, but people are blinded to it.

That is also why this "blasphemy challenge" doesnt make me angry. Just cuz you quote lines that u "deny the holy spirit" does not condem your soul to hell. Just cuz you speak something doesnt mean anything. If you were to quote "i recieve jesus christ into my heart and forgive me of my sins" doesnt make you a born again believer. the Bible says its Heart, body, mind and soul. I take on the challenge ya'l bring to us Christians, not to stand up and say i believe in God but to do my best to answer the questions you have. I see this as an opportunity to open your eyes to what you are blinded to. Im not the only one either. Here at Liberty University, at our Campus church, which u can get on podcast for FREE cuz we are not about money, wed night we had a message for all of ya'l to come here to Liberty University in Lynchburg VA and bring all your questions with you and we'l be open to except. we want you to Bring on your challenge. We got God the Father, Jesus his Son , Holy Spirit on our side to give use the knowledge and words to say. Im not God tho so i dont know EVERYTHING obviously, but i will not cop out and say u have to believe in faith, cuz blind faith is faith in faith and faith lies in the object of faith, faith alone is nothing.

Sorry for the rambling, but had alot on my mind and hear to say! Smiling

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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So... If I understand this

So...

If I understand this correctly, All Knowing, All Super-Duper-Pooper-Deity made a being called Satan, who was too stupid to notice that god was All Knowing, All etc... and was stupid enough to think that just by getting some of his fellow creations together, he could overthrow the most Super-est of all Super-Heroes, and then punished the stupid creation for being so stupid as to try something that was utterly impossible from the get-go.

Then he made man, and let Stupid-Head have control over the place where men live, so that some of the men could go to hell.

Not really painting a very nice picture here.

God's still an asshole.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

So...

If I understand this correctly, All Knowing, All Super-Duper-Pooper-Deity made a being called Satan, who was too stupid to notice that god was All Knowing, All etc... and was stupid enough to think that just by getting some of his fellow creations together, he could overthrow the most Super-est of all Super-Heroes, and then punished the stupid creation for being so stupid as to try something that was utterly impossible from the get-go.

Then he made man, and let Stupid-Head have control over the place where men live, so that some of the men could go to hell.

Not really painting a very nice picture here.

God's still an asshole.

 

 

He does not want ANYONE to go to Hell. If he didnt care he wouldnt have sent his one and only Son to die on the cross for EVERYONE's sins. He gives you the option to chose him or deny him. Apparently its EVIDENT where you stand.

So if you do not believe in God..Heaven...Hell or ANYTHING of that sort then what happens when ya die!?

You may live your life denying God but that doesnt stop Him from loving you and trying to reveal Himself to you. What has He ever done to you to make you hate him so much? The things that happen in this world are not God's fault but consequences of mans actions. I dont see how someone who created you, gives you life everyday that you wake up, even after u denying him and putting him down OVER AND OVER again he still allows you to live & gives you chance after chance...is such an "asshole". He is a gracious and merciful God that loves everyone Unconditionally. He doesnt hate you or not love you, he hates the sin we commit everyday.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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Reread my post and try to

Reread my post and try to comprehend it.

Your response doesn't address my point at all.

Let me try again in simpler language:

All-Knowing God created a being who wasn't smart enough to know that he couldn't overthrow God.  He created this being with a brain that would lead him to try to overthrow God.  After allowing this to happen, he made hell, and then gave Stupid-Head control over the earth, allowing him to tempt man, so that man could go to hell.

This is the description of an ASSHOLE.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Oh... I forgot one

Oh... I forgot one point...

If he loves me UNCONDITIONALLY, why do I have to believe in him?

That's a condition, kiddo.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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You dont HAVE to believe in

You dont HAVE to believe in Him, if you want to go to Hell.  But then again if you dont believe in God, you dont believe in Heaven or Hell either....sooo i guess if u want to have a meaningless life then go for it! here is a quote for you!

 "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless"
              -Betrand Russel 20th Century ATHEIST, Author, Mathematician.

So stated by an ATHEIST, without God questioning the reasons behind life and fall of satan would be meaningless rite? i mean if i answer your questions is it going to change how you feel? Probably not. Im more than willing to though, because just maybe if you run out of questions to ask, then you'l start to realize that you are blinded to whats true.  Also well now you know the truth since you were on an ATHEIST site and THEIST reached out to you. So you can continue to deny God all your life, He'l still love you, but you only live for so long. And you are not garunteed tomorrow so if God is really you better be..umm.."hoping' its true that he doesnt exist and that He is just an "asshole" so when you die...well i guess nothing happens to you rite? you just turn to ashes? makes life seem pretty pointless looking at it that way. to live to just die and that be the end of it. Nothing more.

 As for your other comment bout what i said not "painting a pretty pic" well lets see, art is all in the artist imagination so SURE if your not thinking a "pretty picture" and your not giving God a chance & your calling him an "asshole" which is very brave mite i add...its not going to be a pretty picture for you now is it?  If God did not create Hell, then what did you want him to do? its NOT a fairytale therefore its not all a HAPPY ending.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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I don't understand why you

I don't understand why you think that is a choice. What if your husband or wife or whatever said to you:

"you can love me and hang out with me or you can be set on fire by these other people that I have the power to stop but wont"

The first thing you would think is, this person is completely psychotic. That's not even debatable. I mean that is some real, real disturbing stuff.

But the second thing you would think is, that's not a choice really it's nothing but a threat. Its saying love me or else.

Even if there is a god like that I wouldn't worship it. That god can eat my ass I don't negotiate with terrorists.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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BringOnYourChallenge

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

well i guess nothing happens to you rite? you just turn to ashes? makes life seem pretty pointless looking at it that way. to live to just die and that be the end of it. Nothing more.

You never addressed Ham's observations about the whole God/Lucifer story. You just continue to prosetylize. In regards to your quote above, I find it the absolute opposite that life becomes pointless without an after life. In fact I find it the other way around. This life just becomes some stepping stone in the eternal party thats waiting for me. In fact it trivializes this life because the real living is gonna happen when I'm dead! To me knowing that this is my only shot at life and that I don't have eternity waiting for me is the biggest motivator to make the here and now count. To make this short life I lead as wonderful and as best as I can make it. To appreciate every moment I have because there is simply not enough time to take it all for granted. 


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Gauche wrote: I don't

Gauche wrote:

I don't understand why you think that is a choice. What if your husband or wife or whatever said to you:

"you can love me and hang out with me or you can be set on fire by these other people that I have the power to stop but wont"

The first thing you would think is, this person is completely psychotic. That's not even debatable. I mean that is some real, real disturbing stuff.

But the second thing you would think is, that's not a choice really it's nothing but a threat. Its saying love me or else.

Even if there is a god like that I wouldn't worship it. That god can eat my ass I don't negotiate with terrorists.

Yea cuz thats EXACTLY what God is doing rite? Threatening you..OK! He gives u everyday you wake up another day to live when after the things you say and how u deny him so strongly....he could just send his wrath upon you and end all the horrible remarks you make towards him. afterall isnt that what ya'l believe he should have done to lucifer or to adam and eve..just make them disappear so that there wouldnt be sin?  God gives you the choice to make a sacrifice...not put ur own desire's first but his, live a Godly life pleasing unto him and spend eternity in heaven, or live for yourself, sin all you want, have all the TEMPORARY fun you want, and someday die and spend eternity sufferin in hell.  Lets see thats not a threat. Threat would be worship me or i'l kill you and send you to hell. thats not what God does. He gives you the choice to do either or AND even if you chose to go against him he is still merciful and allows you to live another day...he trys to make himself evident to you but if you arent open to it OF COURSE your not gonna see it.  The consequences of your sins is hell, the fact you reject God and dont give him a chance is what sends you to Hell.  Yes God has the power to MAKE you do what is right according to His Word, but that wouldnt be free will now would it!?  

 And that fact you stoop as low as to say God can "eat your ass cuz u dont negotiate with terrorist" thats sad. All i can do is pray that one day you see that he is real and you ask him to forgive you for those kind of remarks. Because he doesnt have to let you live another second but he allows you to. Because he loves you and DOESNT want you to go to Hell. Oh and can you explain to me how hes a terrorist i gues i missed that memo in the concordance of my Bible that says God is a Terrorist.  He heals sick people, is merciful to those who mock him, he gave his only son for the sins of everyone on earth, he stopped Hitler from going any further, he keeps you alive, gives sinners chance after chance to turn away from sin & turn towards Him....im just not seeing how he is a terrorist.  Everything bad goin on in this world is consequences of man's sins...God doesnt decide who is goin to be blessed and who will suffer. Those who are suffering, if they do turn to God and put their faith in Him and live for Him, then when they die they will suffer no more and live in Heaven for eternity. Sounds pretty fair to me.  Its just like when you were lil and you did something rite made your parents happy and you get rewarded...you do something wrong get put in time out....you live for God you get rewarded, you deny God you get the consequences of your actions...its not hard to comprehend.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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"Unless you assume a God,

"Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless"
              -Betrand Russel 20th Century ATHEIST, Author, Mathematician.

 

This quote is not intended as an argument against atheists. Russell (far more intelligent than you btw) was pointing out the fallacious nature of the assumption of teleological purpose. Life does not have a teleological purpose. It is a complex set of secretions, transcription, hormone control and synthesis operating on an autocatalytic cycle. It is bound to happen by the laws of chemistry.  

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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I would just like to ask

I would just like to ask you some questions. 

 

May I ask for your definition of all-loving?  To me an all-loving being would not even have the thought to make a place like hell.

 

Why does a perfect Being need so badly to be worshipped? 

 

"..he stopped Hitler from going any further" - I was a bit troubled by this comment.  Why did God stop Hitler at the time he did?  Why not before or even after he murdered more people?

 

Do we have free will in heaven? 

 


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You may live your life

You may live your life denying God but that doesnt stop Him from loving you and trying to reveal Himself to you. What has He ever done to you to make you hate him so much?

 

You dont understand, do you? It is not God that we hate, you can't hate something that doesn't exist. An atheist does not condemn the idea of a force greter than we can understand. If I wanted to say "god is pure energy" i could. Accoring to the laws of physics, energy cannot be created or destroyed, has been here since the beginning of time (not a metaphor, spacetime requires energy) and will be here for eternity. What we find so ridiculous is a religious supernatural anthropomorphic male deity. We just made that idea up. We are not created in God's image. He is created in ours. The diffusion of religion across the globe and the plethora of Gods should make it clear to anyone who has no chip on their shoulder that God is a creation of man seeking a teleological comfort thought.

 

It is religion that we despise, not God. Every religion, with Christianity as the worst, is soaked in blood. It has always been a force for pure evil. My God is better than your God, seems to be the thinking of many theists who justify flying planes into buildings. The black pearl of religious hatred may have passed to Islam, but certainly in the US, Evangelicals are still a force to be despised. You go to LIBERTY university?? As in Jerry Falwell's founding? Here's a life tip. You want a nice resume? quit that place and go to a real university where the motto is "think critically" instead of the oxymoron "think critically and biblically"

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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deludedgod wrote: You may

deludedgod wrote:

You may live your life denying God but that doesnt stop Him from loving you and trying to reveal Himself to you. What has He ever done to you to make you hate him so much?

 

You dont understand, do you? It is not God that we hate, you can't hate something that doesn't exist. An atheist does not condemn the idea of a force greter than we can understand. If I wanted to say "god is pure energy" i could. Accoring to the laws of physics, energy cannot be created or destroyed, has been here since the beginning of time (not a metaphor, spacetime requires energy) and will be here for eternity. What we find so ridiculous is a religious supernatural anthropomorphic male deity. We just made that idea up. We are not created in God's image. He is created in ours. The diffusion of religion across the globe and the plethora of Gods should make it clear to anyone who has no chip on their shoulder that God is a creation of man seeking a teleological comfort thought.

 

It is religion that we despise, not God. Every religion, with Christianity as the worst, is soaked in blood. It has always been a force for pure evil. My God is better than your God, seems to be the thinking of many theists who justify flying planes into buildings. The black pearl of religious hatred may have passed to Islam, but certainly in the US, Evangelicals are still a force to be despised. You go to LIBERTY university?? As in Jerry Falwell's founding? Here's a life tip. You want a nice resume? quit that place and go to a real university where the motto is "think critically" instead of the oxymoron "think critically and biblically"

 

Umm NO THATS OK~ i'l pass thanks. I LOVE BEING AT LIBERTY. Im gettin my degree in Bio-premed & i am learning more about God. What could be any better?? Besides being in heaven rite now w/God.   As far as your statement about christianity being the worst religion soaked in blood or WHATEVER what is that!?!?!? the 9/11 incident was MUSLIMS not Christian and they used their religion to "justify" their crime. Not all muslims are like that. They claimed to be martyrs for their religion but they werent..they were SUICIDAL AND MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE..they were mentally unstable people! ok?if they were martyrs then someone would have murdered them no them killin themselves. So i dont understand where christainity ties into that but WHATEVER!! And how can u judge liberty anyways!? have u been here!? Do u kno jerry falwell? LU doesnt just teach about christianity. how do u think we know bout other world views and religions? there are athiest, skeptics, muslims, all kinds of religions here. u dont have to be a chrstian to go here.  anyways i dont have time to debate with you bout stuff that i know is true cuz no matter what i say your gonna disagree with me..and im not the type of person to debate...have a great night! GOD BLESS!! 

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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Mr. Bring:

Mr. Bring:

Yes, you assume alot.

First of all, this is not some organized group. True, the owners and some moderators are in one location, but remember, this is "the internaaeeeets" - it's international. I don't know these people that post  here and vice-versa and don't agree with everything going around. I could care less about a "blasphemy challenge." I found this site while on a friend's myspace page.

Second, lots of the posters here came from Fundamentalist backgrounds, but we always had lots of questions.

Third, questioning authority did not start in the 1950s. Read history. Ever heard of the founding fathers?

Fourth, I am looking for a simple answer. I will rephase the question.

A. According to Christian doctrine we have freewill: a decision b/w good (God) or evil (Satan).

B. Lucifer was God's right hand man. Where did Satan get the thought/notion to attempt a usurption of power if there was no evil. Lucifer had freewill but how could he choose evil if evil comes from Satan. Lucifer was not Satan at that point . That thought had to have come from... you can do it! Come on! Fill in the blank! Do it! You're almost there! ____________________ .

Come on! Say it. Make my night. I dare you! Tongue out

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anyways i dont have time to

QUOTE: 

anyways i dont have time to debate with you bout stuff that i know is true cuz no matter what i say your gonna disagree with me..and im not the type of person to debate...have a great night! GOD BLESS!!

Guess I missed my window of opportunity, *sigh*but if anyone else might wanna answer my question I'd love to hear from you!

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Well first of all, its a

Well first of all, its a Miss not Mr. and second, Lucifer is the reason evil was seperated from God.  At that time Angels had freewill to worship God...or not. Lucifer was the main one who tried to overthrow God b/c of jealousy.  God did not want that in heaven, hence the reason he created hell and sent lucifer..or SATAN to hell w/the his demons!  NOW there is no evil Heaven.

 ~Brittany~  <---GIRL!  if u notice in my account info on here is a link to my myspace..if ud look at it ud see im a girl!

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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can you answer my questions

can you answer my questions please Miss Bring.


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So god is merciful because

So god is merciful because he could have killed me for talking smack but didn't. What kind of logic is that?

A choice would be something like, I don't know..how about:

'worship me and you get something, don't worship me and you get nothing.'

It's not worship me or you'll get stuffed into a giant furnace. That's terrorism and I don't negotiate with terrorists.

Plus can you tell us where you plan to practice medicine so I can make sure I never get sick there.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Brittany. Ok, sorry. Yes, I

Brittany. Ok, sorry. Yes, I assumed, committing one of my own special peeves; didn't have time to read the profile...

Your QUOTE:

"At that time Angels had freewill to worship God...or not. Lucifer was the main one who tried to overthrow God b/c of jealousy. God did not want that in heaven, hence the reason he created hell and sent lucifer..or SATAN to hell w/the his demons! NOW there is no evil Heaven."

ME:

Okay, then so: 

a. Where did the notion "jealousy" come from?

b. Where did freewill come from?

Again, God=Good Satan=Evil. Lucifer at this point in time was not evil. Where did that notion to "sin" come from?

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BringOnYourChallenge

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

Im gettin my degree in Bio-premed

If you're going to be a doctor, or anything else scientific, I strongly encourage you to go to a university where they don't think that dinosaur bones are 6000 years old. I mean come on.

Oh, and are you ever going to adress the question posed by Hamby? You just ranted past it before.


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 As far as your statement

 As far as your statement about christianity being the worst religion soaked in blood or WHATEVER what is that!?!?!? the 9/11 incident was MUSLIMS not Christian and they used their religion to "justify" their crime. Not all muslims are like that. They claimed to be martyrs for their religion but they werent..they were SUICIDAL AND MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE.

 

Yes, I realize that. I despise Islam completely, i said myself: THE BLACK PEARL OF RELILIGOUS HATRED HAS PASSED TO ISLAM. I wrote a fucking thesis on how awful Islam in the modern world is, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse for the horrors that theocratic christianity has pursued over the centuries. Ever heard of the inquisition? the pogroms? the witch hunts? The army of god? Granted, in the modern world, Islam is a far worse force for evil then Christianity, I will definitely say that is someting (probably the only thing) that we agree on.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Please remember this is the

Please remember this is the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum and the rules are more stringent here.

You can see the rules here.

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So lots of people want to

So lots of people want to know.  Are you going to try to answer my question?

 

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Hambydammit wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

So lots of people want to know. Are you going to try to answer my question?

 

 

Or the others? Anyone? Anyone?

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Hambydammit wrote: So lots

Hambydammit wrote:

So lots of people want to know.  Are you going to try to answer my question?

 

 Sorry for not responding right away...havent been on in a while due to very busy schedule..but im here and if you specify what question exactly your talking about i'l do my best to answer.  Is it the one bout God having Unconditional love?

 

22jesus22 wrote:

I would just like to ask you some questions.

 

May I ask for your definition of all-loving? To me an all-loving being would not even have the thought to make a place like hell.

 

Why does a perfect Being need so badly to be worshipped?

 

"..he stopped Hitler from going any further" - I was a bit troubled by this comment. Why did God stop Hitler at the time he did? Why not before or even after he murdered more people?

 

Do we have free will in heaven?

 

As for your first question bout all-loving... He has unconditional love which means no matter what God loves you.  But with Love that means there is Hate...with Good there is Evil...Heaven there is Hell....we all have free will if you dont chose to believe in God..that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, then you go to hell.  God doesnt chose to send you there. He sent his Son so that you may not have to go there, but if you deny Him then where are you suppose to go when you die? no where?

2ndly, God doesnt NEED to be worshipped...God doesnt NEED us, our money, our time...anything..but God wants your love...just as you want someone to love you.  God wants you to worship Him.

3rdly, I'l admit...I dont know the answer to your comment bout my Hitler comment....I dont know why God choses to allow things and stop others. Guess that is something i'l find out when I get to Heaven and stand b4 him to be judge and ask him questions i have. All I know is God has a purpose for everything.

4thly, Will we have free will in Heaven? No. When Heaven was first made there was free will til the fall of Lucifer. Once he fell and became Satan and condemned to hell w/his fallen angels, then evil was out of Heaven for good. In Heaven there is no pain, no suffering, no anger, no jealously, no sadness....etc. B/c everyone in Heaven is there because they CHOSE to worship God w/their life...they chose to live for Him and believe in Him...therefore thats what they will continue to do in Heaven w/o temptation to do sin to divert them off track.

 

KSMB wrote:
BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

Im gettin my degree in Bio-premed

If you're going to be a doctor, or anything else scientific, I strongly encourage you to go to a university where they don't think that dinosaur bones are 6000 years old. I mean come on.

 I'm not too sure bout the dinosaur bones are 6000yrs old comment u made...but i DO know...LU does claim there are dinosaurs and that they r mentioned in the Bible....ANYWAYS....I also am very happy being here. I am gettin my education... Its not like im stayin here..OBVIOUSLY..because they dont have a medschool..and ive grown up in VA so id like to move out of here...plan on going to a good medschool such as UNC....afterall....med school is where i'l get what i need to be a doctor..my bachelor degree is just a pre-req to get into medschool.  Have u been to LU? Why do u talk bad about LU? I've only been goin to LU for 2 yrs now..but i know many people who have graduated and become successful.

 

Finally If there is anyone i did not address, im sorry. Im only one person...im doing my best.  Im tryin to address as many questions the best i can. I'm only 20 though and there is alot i do not know answers to and i'l be the first to admit when i dont know. 

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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dassercha wrote: Brittany.

dassercha wrote:

Brittany. Ok, sorry. Yes, I assumed, committing one of my own special peeves; didn't have time to read the profile...

Your QUOTE:

"At that time Angels had freewill to worship God...or not. Lucifer was the main one who tried to overthrow God b/c of jealousy. God did not want that in heaven, hence the reason he created hell and sent lucifer..or SATAN to hell w/the his demons! NOW there is no evil Heaven."

ME:

Okay, then so:

a. Where did the notion "jealousy" come from?

b. Where did freewill come from?

Again, God=Good Satan=Evil. Lucifer at this point in time was not evil. Where did that notion to "sin" come from?

As i said, at the time there was freewill in Heaven. If there is good then w/freewill that means there is evil.  Satan and his demons were just the only angels to do evil.  That is when God seperated Good and evil...Heaven and Hell. Also "jealously" is works the same way.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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BringOnYourChallenge

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:

I watched the clip from "Nightline" or w/e it was on this page and Brain Flemming talked about his reasoning behind all of this. He says that teens are being targeted by religion and miserable or what not from it. Anyone who is a TRUE BELIEVER AND FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ, lives everyday best he/she can for God, and has a true relationship with Jesus, is not miserable bout it.

 

Alice is a teenager. She lives with her parents, her father doesn't work, and her mother works at a bookstore owned by a fairly strange and germophobic woman. More to the point, Alice's mother is a vegetarian. Quite a rabid one. Alice is also a vegetarian, and has no qualm with that fact. Alice decides one day, after her parents go to a concert without her, she will try meat for the first time out of curiosity. Alice's mother finds out about this, and punishes her.

 

That's the issue. Alice's diet is being dictated to her by her mother. Alice hasn't been given time to decide whether or not she believes this to be the right path, she's being prodded along. Whether or not she expresses discontentment with the situation has nothing to do with the fact that it's wrong to force it upon her.

 

Look up Stockholm Syndrome if you want more extreme examples.


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Umm no thats alrite, im good

Umm no thats alrite, im good without anymore EXTREME examples. I've been a Christian since 6yrs old and its b/c of me my parents and brother started attending church. So i've been raised in a Christian home practically my whole life, but it has NOTHING to do with why I am a Christian. My parents do not force it, no one forces it on me. I choose to and wouldnt want it any other way.  I understand their r extreme "religious" people out there that force it on their kids, but the kid can "act" like they believe it...doesnt mean they mean it in their heart tho and thats what truely matters.......SO thats that....i dunno what u were gettin at w/that but o well.

There is no such thing as blind faith. Blind faith is simply faith in faith. Faith itself is nothing, it lies in the OBJECT OF THE FAITH! IT IS IN GOD THAT MY FAITH LIES! I will not be a "cop out faith" Christian.


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BringOnYourChallenge

BringOnYourChallenge wrote:
I've been a Christian since 6yrs old and its b/c of me my parents and brother started attending church. So i've been raised in a Christian home practically my whole life, but it has NOTHING to do with why I am a Christian. My parents do not force it, no one forces it on me....

I'm curious how you could say that being raised in a Christian environment since the age of 6 has nothing to do with you being Christian. Religion, like many other aspects of our lives, are formed through early experience.

We all have tha capacity (except those born deaf, mute, etc) to acquire any human language. Our brains contain the structure to comprehend all of them. But we speak the language(s) which we are exposed to early on, simply because it is what surrounds us. We can learn other languages later, but not as easily as we learned early on. The grammar, rules, etc of the language we use help shape how we think--quite literally--and all of our concepts are derived in that language.

Religious development works much the same way. We could potentially believe in all sorts of religions. Our brain is wired, in many ways, to believe all sorts of things. People who are raised in a particular environment take on the religion of that environment. From then on, all thoughts of God, spirituality, after-life etc are shaped by the religious atmosphere in which they formed.

Thus, your parents don't need to force religion on you, they simply are religious and raise you in a religious environment. Most of the concepts of religious subjects (things like divinity, spirits, metaphysics, etc) will have been shaped by the worldview in which your family live. If that worldview is limited to Christianity and the surrounding culture (to which children will have varying degrees of relationship, depending on how protective parents are), then children will become Christian in most cases.

Many children, upon reaching the ages of reason, will find flaws and leave the religion. Many will not see the flaws and remain. Others don't even open themselves up to asking whether there could be flaws. I'm glad you are here to at least explore the questions.

What you might want to ask yourself now is to what extent your views on the world have been tinted or focused through a Christian worldview.  You may not realize it, but when you ask yourself basic questions, you may not be as objective as you could be if the very concepts you are thinking are shaped by Christian worldviews.  An example is sin; this concept has no meaning to me, but I'll bet it has a big one for you.  Why do you think that is?

Shaun

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Quote: In Heaven there is

Quote:
In Heaven there is no pain, no suffering, no anger, no jealously, no sadness....etc.

This statement freaks me out a bit. How can there be no sadness in heaven? If I were in heaven and I knew I had loved ones in hell, I'd be sad.

Does god wipe these people from your memory?

Memories make up who we are. If god does away with some, or all, of our memories then are we the same person in heaven that we were on earth?


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OK forgive me here....I

OK forgive me here....I wanted to address the original  post.

dassercha wrote:
If Satan was God's right hand man, where did Satan get the thought/notion to attempt a usurption of power. That thought had to come from--(drumroll)--the Creator of all, right? Creator of all that is: thoughts, impulses, "thingys" from A to Z, Alpha and Omega.

I'm not sure where God's right hand man came from but it has always been assumed that Satan was the most beautiful of all angels.  This basically comes not from Genesis but Ezekiel 28:12-20.  Any Christian should first acknowledge that God is considered to have the trait of "omniscience", or all knowing.  It is written, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)  So what has always been a mystery and what's more something completely not understandable at all was he foreknew what would happen with Satan, Adam and Eve, and the RRS.  The question is why and this is not found in the bible nor is it answered by any single person.  I can't answer it because I lack what is needed to understand what happened.  The thing is though, from personal experience, I know it to be true.

dassercha wrote:
So, if God was responsible for Satan's initial thought, God could have saved us all a whole lot of grief and just *POOF* taken Big S and his miniuons out, right? Gone, forever!

But was it God's will to do so?  Obviously not since evil came to the world.  The why as far as I can tell has never been revealed to mortal men.  There is one thought to the why though....to make way for Jesus to be born and bring forth the way since man was not capable of following directions. 

One other thing, there is NO Lucifer..only Satan.  If you want to see what's up with that, see this thread on Lucifer - a fallen angel

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Do you accept that

Do you accept that Zoroastrianism had concepts such as paradise, bad guy, good guy in the sky LONG before the Israelites?

Jews/xians want to claim exclusivity to this. You can't, sorry.

I've been to xian forums lately, reading voraciously and am stunned at the amount of disagreement there b/w them. Ex: one camp saying all people are evil, including kids and they're going to hell, that somehow God/yahweh/christ wrote in their hearts the truth & most ignore it. That one has to consciously make the decision to follow Christ. Of course the other camp took issue, one person going so far as claiming they couldn't be xian anymore if that's the case b/c that seemed so insane, yet the other camp was steadfast in their beliefs. *SIGH*

I think I'm just through trying to argue with Fundies b/c it's very tough getting through the armor. Common sense, logic, etc? No sorry, doesn't matter. See my sig at bottom. Sez it all. 

Have you ever met a non-xian who just had this wonderful glimmer in their eye? a lust for life you envied? a heart full of goodness beyond compare? It's just too bad they're goin' to hell though. Oh well, life goes on. At least God's chosen won't have to worry about the eternal bakefest. *SIGH* 

 Ever wonder about how approx. 1% of the world is born intersexed? Contradicts Gen.1

Ever wonder why we haven't cured epilepsy & other maladies when Jesus said we could by exoricing the demons like he did?

Ever wonder why so many people have benefited from the evil, demonic, satanic streching involved in yoga poses, where the bible never mentions how to improve your physical health? I know of 2 people who wanted to die b/c of the pain they felt, but was alleviated immensely by yoga. Too bad they're going to hell. oh well.

I could go on but won't. Just frustrating... *SIGH* ...again... 

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Have you ever met an

Have you ever met an atheist who actually stuck to the subject at hand instead of constantly changing it around?

dassercha wrote:
am stunned at the amount of disagreement there b/w them.

That is something that will be around until the end of time. Until people stop trying to make their will over God's it will never end. Get used to it.

dassercha wrote:
Have you ever met a non-xian who just had this wonderful glimmer in their eye? a lust for life you envied? a heart full of goodness beyond compare? It's just too bad they're goin' to hell though. Oh well, life goes on. At least God's chosen won't have to worry about the eternal bakefest. *SIGH*

Huh? Ever heard that you shouldn't judge because you don't know who is and who isn't chosen?

dassercha wrote:
Ever wonder about how approx. 1% of the world is born intersexed? Contradicts Gen.1

I honestly don't understand what you are talking about by "contradicts"...please explain.

dassercha wrote:
Ever wonder why we haven't cured epilepsy & other maladies when Jesus said we could by exoricing the demons like he did?

Jesus also said that if we had enough faith, the size of a mustard seed, we could...so what does that say about most people's faith? Add to that where we can't even understand what that means and where does that leave us?

dassercha wrote:
Ever wonder why so many people have benefited from the evil, demonic, satanic streching involved in yoga poses, where the bible never mentions how to improve your physical health? I know of 2 people who wanted to die b/c of the pain they felt, but was alleviated immensely by yoga. Too bad they're going to hell. oh well.

You know who is and who isn't going to hell? Interesting...

I know I don't wonder why...I don't have to. I know that God's will is over all and if it was God's will to have Hitler on Earth for a purpose, and Hitler did what God asked, just as Judas did what was necessary to glorify Jesus, who are we to condem? Perhaps one day you will understand, if it be the will of God for you to, it won't frustrate you because you won't worry about such things...and to the Christians who can't get it right....well the details are the things that matter the least; the belief in Jesus is the commonality and that is what will bring them all together in the end.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: OK

razorphreak wrote:

OK forgive me here....I wanted to address the original post.

dassercha wrote:
If Satan was God's right hand man, where did Satan get the thought/notion to attempt a usurption of power. That thought had to come from--(drumroll)--the Creator of all, right? Creator of all that is: thoughts, impulses, "thingys" from A to Z, Alpha and Omega.

I'm not sure where God's right hand man came from but it has always been assumed that Satan was the most beautiful of all angels. This basically comes not from Genesis but Ezekiel 28:12-20. Any Christian should first acknowledge that God is considered to have the trait of "omniscience", or all knowing. It is written, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) So what has always been a mystery and what's more something completely not understandable at all was he foreknew what would happen with Satan, Adam and Eve, and the RRS. The question is why and this is not found in the bible nor is it answered by any single person. I can't answer it because I lack what is needed to understand what happened. The thing is though, from personal experience, I know it to be true.

dassercha wrote:
So, if God was responsible for Satan's initial thought, God could have saved us all a whole lot of grief and just *POOF* taken Big S and his miniuons out, right? Gone, forever!

But was it God's will to do so? Obviously not since evil came to the world. The why as far as I can tell has never been revealed to mortal men. There is one thought to the why though....to make way for Jesus to be born and bring forth the way since man was not capable of following directions.

One other thing, there is NO Lucifer..only Satan. If you want to see what's up with that, see this thread on Lucifer - a fallen angel.

Satan committed original sin then, right? 

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this thread is beginning to

this thread is beginning to look a bit like this one: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/4855

i think there were some interesting points there which weren't resolved.

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mouse wrote: Satan

mouse wrote:
Satan committed original sin then, right?

No.  Angels are without sin (note, the passage below does not say some angels but makes reference to ALL angels). 

Psalm 103:20-21 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will. 

The greek word for angel, "aggelos", can also be translated as "messenger".   This is part the reason why I question exactly who Satan may have been.  The passage from Ezekiel is not conclusive that the author was in fact referring to Satan so what Satan's origins are with certainty, that cannot be said. 

Satan comes from the Hebrew word meaning "accuser" or "adversary".  In fact in the bible various other angels has been able to silence Satan by using God's name.  

Mouse, the reason I think this thread sounds like the other - how often is it that the thread subject is being stuck to? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razor: Thanks for your

razor:

Thanks for your response, and my last posting acutally was on topic. The first line addresses the TRUE origin of the topic. Zoroastrianism. xians don't want to see that, PLUS I chose to list all the other things out there fundy xians IN MY EXPERIENCE don't want to deal with. That's where I was going with that. I'm glad your more enlightened than the average fundy, but maybe you should spend some time on some xian forums. It's...um...well, fairly interesting. Out.

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dassercha wrote: Thanks for

dassercha wrote:
Thanks for your response, and my last posting acutally was on topic. The first line addresses the TRUE origin of the topic. Zoroastrianism.

The reason I say it's not is because this thread is about Satan's fall, not the origins of a following of a single God.  Besides, isn't THE first Judaism (2000 BCE vs. 1700 BCE according to wikipedia)? 

dassercha wrote:
I'm glad your more enlightened than the average fundy, but maybe you should spend some time on some xian forums. It's...um...well, fairly interesting. Out.

Oh I've seen the forums that you talk about and trust me sometimes, its far more frustrating.  The biggest thing that frustrates me about here is this constant desire to take stuff out of context to make a point.  With Christians its always going to be removing dogma from faith.  In the end it's supposed to be about the acceptance of Jesus...((shrugg))

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

dassercha wrote:
Thanks for your response, and my last posting acutally was on topic. The first line addresses the TRUE origin of the topic. Zoroastrianism.

The reason I say it's not is because this thread is about Satan's fall, not the origins of a following of a single God. Besides, isn't THE first Judaism (2000 BCE vs. 1700 BCE according to wikipedia)?

dassercha wrote:
I'm glad your more enlightened than the average fundy, but maybe you should spend some time on some xian forums. It's...um...well, fairly interesting. Out.

Oh I've seen the forums that you talk about and trust me sometimes, its far more frustrating. The biggest thing that frustrates me about here is this constant desire to take stuff out of context to make a point. With Christians its always going to be removing dogma from faith. In the end it's supposed to be about the acceptance of Jesus...((shrugg))

Raz:

Dont wanna beat a dead horse, but my years of researching this tells me that the captive Israelites in Babylon borrowed heavily from the Zoroastrianism/Sumerian/Babylonian myths to form their beliefs. If you have peer reviewed scholarly works pointing to the contrary,  by all means, share. I am here to learn. 

 If their god was unique and the *ONE TRUE* god, wouldn't that god have  attempted to look just a little different than those others? Just say'n ((shrugg)) Tongue out

 

 

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