faith, the basis for which all knowledge was created

sapphen
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faith, the basis for which all knowledge was created

*Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical date, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole. Faith can be placed in a person, inanimate object, state of affairs, proposition or body of propositions such as a religious creed.

Jesus says that you have to have faith that He is real, if we had proof then that wouldn't be faith. i can not argue with you about the accuracy of the bible. i do not personally know the authors. i do not know first hand how the bible was collected. but in my heart, when i read it... it moves me, inspires me to discover myself. every word to me is full not empty.

you guys have such hate for God, yet you do not believe him to be real. you thrive on the thrill of the debate. you talk of methods to contend with people who have religion. long winded counterattacks that make you feel witty and smart yet you are arguing about something that has no residence in this physical world.

i can't apologize for what my brothers or sisters may have done to turn you. for the parents that didn't love you or the world that has hardened your hearts. i can only tell you that we have a Father in heaven that loves you dearly and laments for you soul.

you can not look at the actions of Christians to base you opinion of God. we have done terrible things in His name. if you look at our lives it is full of imperfections and we do not think that we are better than you.

you are more than welcome to question life and it's purpose. you have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to take away ours. all we can do is learn from each other and i pray that one day your eyes will be shed from the scales that blacken your sight.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote:

sapphen wrote:
*Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical date, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole. Faith can be placed in a person, inanimate object, state of affairs, proposition or body of propositions such as a religious creed. Jesus says that you have to have faith that He is real, if we had proof then that wouldn't be faith.

Why would he want to play this game? This type of faith, believing in something without reason, is frowned upon in all other circumstances. Why would what is supposed to be a savior want for us to believe without reason? It seems senseless and arbitrary to just decide that faith is important in this one circumstance when it is otherwise useless in our day to day lives. What gives Jesus?

sapphen wrote:
i can not argue with you about the accuracy of the bible. i do not personally know the authors. i do not know first hand how the bible was collected. but in my heart, when i read it... it moves me, inspires me to discover myself. every word to me is full not empty.

I often feel that way when I read Tom Robbins, or Virginia Hamilton Adair, or even Brian Greene, but I'm not going to try and pass discriminatory laws, or take a way someones right to choose, or condemn those who don't like Tom Robbins because the book might tell me to. This is what Christians do when they try to criminalize abortion, or oppose gay marriage, preach to others that they are going to hell.

Sapphen wrote:
you guys have such hate for God, yet you do not believe him to be real.

I hate god the way I hate Hannibal Lecter. I know he's not real, but as a fictional character, he sure isn't a very nice guy and is plenty deserving of any hate he recieves. He killed every first born baby in Egypt for crying out loud, not to mention turning newborns into blue bobbers with that whole flood thing. Who could like a character like that?

Sapphen wrote:
you thrive on the thrill of the debate. you talk of methods to contend with people who have religion.

Religion is useless. It is only necessary to reach goals which are detrimental to a stable and peaceful society and therefor all should work towards abolishing it.

Sapphen wrote:
long winded counterattacks that make you feel witty and smart yet you are arguing about something that has no residence in this physical world.

Its followers sure make their presence known in this physical world and that is why the whole silly myth needs to be put to rest.

Sapphen wrote:
i can't apologize for what my brothers or sisters may have done to turn you. for the parents that didn't love you or the world that has hardened your hearts.

Never been religious so no one needed to turn me. My parents are great. I'm well educated, have a great family. Life couldn't be better except to get rid of that ridiculous religion crap that seems to drive a wedge between otherwise good intelligent people.

Sapphen wrote:
i can only tell you that we have a Father in heaven that loves you dearly and laments for you soul.

No such thing as heaven. Who would even want there to be? If you seriously consider it, it doesn't sound all that appealing. I'm not wanting to die or anything, but eternity? Well, it just seems a little too long to me.

Sapphen wrote:
you can not look at the actions of Christians to base you opinion of God.

My opinion of god is that he's a fictional character, and an ill defined one at that. I do not base this on Christians, but on reason.

Sapphen wrote:
we have done terrible things in His name. if you look at our lives it is full of imperfections and we do not think that we are better than you.

No argument there.

Sapphen wrote:
you are more than welcome to question life and it's purpose.

Thank you. Life, what is your purpose? To be lived and to be enjoyed, you say? Cool. I can sure do that.

Sapphen wrote:
you have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to take away ours.

I have a right, no, I have a duty to protest that which I think is bad for society. Religion falls under that heading.

Sapphen wrote:
all we can do is learn from each other and i pray that one day your eyes will be shed from the scales that blacken your sight.

I hope that one day you will learn to let go of religion and live as a rational man. Then we can truly start to build a better tomorrow.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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sapphen wrote:Faith - is a

sapphen wrote:
Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical date,
Very good, if you are referring to religious faith. Religious faith is definitely not based on logic, reason, and/or empirical evidence. Then it must be pure fantasy.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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)   when i was a child,

Smiling)

 

when i was a child, about 12 years old i remember my sister coming home with this story.  she talked of a man who words melted her heart, someone who showed her light in a life that had gone sour.

 being at my young age i laughted at her, mocked her and this man.  calming him to be blind and ignorant.  her face grew long and she was disappointed to be meet with sarcasim.  then the funniest part was she told me that there was this guy who wanted my soul.

 i remember the look in her eyes, one moment before she was about to get angry like she always did... this calmness came across her.  she smiled and asked if we would go with her one day, we just muttered yeah right.

 as time passed me and my sister got to talk alone about what had happend.  she had changed so much.  she was happier than i have ever seen her and she talked with so much passion.  i never thought that such a mousy person would have such a drive for something.  finally after swallowing my pride i decided to go with her.

 this old man was preaching and he jumped around on the stage like a crazy person.  people were jumping up and yellin amen!  i was timid and felt very uneasy.  as he talk i kept feeling this weight on my heart.  he asked if anyone would like to come up... i just choked down the feeling and shrugged it off.

a few days later, i was still thinking of this strange man talking about things i have never heard.  part of me wished i had gone up to the alter and prayed with them, but the other part of me didn't want to commit to such wacko's.

 on the third day as i was sleeping on the couch this disturbing dream came to me.  war was all around, people were dying and i was running from all the fighting.  the more i tried to escape the more i became entangled, there was no where to hide.  i felt a knock on my head and i fell to the ground.

 there was a bunch of people laying on the ground.. lined up, side by side.  i couldn't move.  some of the people where struggling.  then i noticed this silver water like substance flowing towards us and over our eyes.  one by one it took each man, as it touched him, he yelled out in pain.

 at the time it came to me suddendly i was scoped up by this man in a white robe riding a white horse.  i didn't look at his face, i felt unworthy, but he craddled me like a child.  i still remember the smell, something i couldn't explain but it brought so much peace to my heart.  when he layed me down i was standing in clouds.  i tried to look at him by the light was so bright i could barely see anything.

 at that time looking up at my Savior, i knew what i had to do.  he told me of peace, love and kindess in a quick blow of the wind. and then i woke up a changed man.

 

tell me, there has to be a time in your life that you have had faith in something?  a blind belief that something you are doing will work?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


sapphen
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...why would one define

...why would one define faith deferently? faith is faith.


triften
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Quote:

Quote:

faith, the basis for which all knowledge was created

If faith is belief without evidence, then no knowledge is _for_ faith. If a gain in knowledge provides evidence against something taken on faith, then that provides evidence that something originally taken on faith is not true. If, on the other hand, knowledge gained provides evidence for something, then that article is no longer a matter of faith since it now has evidence.

Religious faith is something that destroys curiosity and thinking.

There's no problem with having faith in something real, like a person or an object. This is a different kind of faith. There is evidence that a person or item can be trusted to fulfill a promise or behave as expected. And yes, I've had faith in myself. It's called confidence and I don't get it from any supernatural forces.

Every word of the bible moves you? To joy or sadness? Are you happy that Jesus came not with peace, but with a sword? How are you moved when bears are sent by god to kill children? Or when the followers of Jesus are told to smash babies on rocks? Have you stoned your disobedient children to death as commanded in Leviticus? (Keep in mind that Jesus said that not one bit of the old law is to be changed.)

I don't hate the God of the bible any more that I hate most murderers. I pity him. It's sad that a being such as god can be so jealous and insecure. This manifests itself primarily in bullying those smaller than him.

If god is perfect, then he must be logical, right?

(If you don't accept this, then you admit god is irrational and you've thrown away the logical thinking he has given you.)

If god is logical, then he can't be all-knowing, all-powerful, AND all-loving because and Epicurus first said this:

  1. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
  2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
  3. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
  4. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Why would an all-loving creator want to do any harm to us for any reason? Especially if he could have created the world in such a way that nothing bad ever happened?

Also, how are we taking away people's opinions?

If you can look at evidence to the contrary of one of your beliefs and still hold it, I find that very frightening. If self-delusion is a virtue, I don't want to be right.

-Triften


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looking back, i am a fool

looking back, i am a fool to post here.  there is nothing to change, it is all going according to God's plan.

i would like to say though.. i proclaim my faith in Jesus Christ, i ask the Holy Spirit to infest me and that God's will be present in my life.

i will die for my faith and i will do my best to raise my childern in the same belief.  i will do my best to reach others with this love i have fount in my Savior, Jesus Christ.

for i was once blind, but now i see... i was lost but now i am fount.  i want nothing more than to be a sheep to the Great Sheppard.  i am a child of the King.. praise the Lord!

i will be praying for the few that should not be here, but this movement is necessary to make way for the return of our Christ.

after sleeping on all of this i realize that i'm excited that this is finally happing. it is the sign of the end of times.  now you have just have to find your antichrist and lead you guys down your road. 

 peace be with you brothers, may God speed your paths  because i know how it ends.

 i do feel terrible for your souls, but you don't so why should i?  compassion i guess.. i will be praying for the few sitting there feeling uneasy about this whole thing.  just wanting to belong to something.  Jesus is waiting, open your hearts and believe in Him.

 ...faith is blind and it can not be debated. it can be felt but not seen.  religion has been inspiring us thoughout history. for good or bad somethings need to happen for other events to progress.  

 God is great and has blessed me greatly, praise to His name.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: ...why would

sapphen wrote:
...why would one define faith deferently?
You defined faith, in the your 1st post.
Quote:
faith is faith.
Which is what?
sapphen said, "{Religious} Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical dat{a}"

If you were not referring to religious faith, then your definition is incorrect. It is logical to have faith that the sun will appear tomorrow morning. It is logical to have faith that when you turn the key in your car ignition that your car will start.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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sapphen wrote:for i was

sapphen wrote:

for i was once blind, but now i see

What do you see?


Quote:
 ...faith is blind
Exactly
Quote:
and it can not be debated.
yes it can
Quote:
 it can be felt but not seen.
Correct, emotions cannot be seen.
Quote:
religion has been inspiring us thoughout history.
I've never been inspired by religion
Quote:
for good or bad somethings need to happen for other events to progress. 
That's like saying sometimes it rains too much and sometimes it rains too little. You're not really saying anything no one else knew.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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sapphen wrote: looking

sapphen wrote:

looking back, i am a fool to post here. there is nothing to change,

Quite honestly, did you expect to post something like that on an Atheist and freethinker forum and we would all immediately fall to our knees and say that you must be right?

Be brave. Post a question or two in a thread and defend your belief. Or is your faith so weak that even hearing another viewpoint is scary?

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what did i see... i seen

what did i see... i seen the light.  i seen my Savior reach out to me and take me into His arms.  again, this is faith, it cannot be explained.  it is a feeling and it must be felt.  you are constantly attacking us and putting us on the defense and you can't see the glass as half full.  the reason why faith is blind is because it can't be seen, it doesn't need to be.

 i was reading over the passages that were posted on many of the posts and i did not see what you see.  it was 3 lines of him saying good things and 1 line that might be him telling someone that they are bad. everyone focused on the negitive words and tried to maginfy them.

in essence Jesus had a lot of good things to say, His teachings where moral and good.  i bet you guys have a list u could read off to me where u think He was wrong.  but is their not a list of things He said that you would like others to follow?  would u not want someone to treat u farily despite of ur religion?  would u not want someone to give you extra when you asked for a little?  someone to forgive you no matter what you did?

when i said good and bad things have to happen for events to occur i was refering to christain history.  all the lives God had to take, all the wars that were fought.   do u really have such faith in mankind that u believe they were fighting for only God? man will and have fount many reason to wage war, it is in our nature.  why blame God?  and how will the loss of religion fix that?  men will always find differeneces and fight about them and that is the only thing i really have proof of.

 you say u have never been inspired by religion, but u seen to have a lot of passion about the topic at hand.  i would say inspired even.

 i say faith can't be debated because of the fact, what i feel and what u feel is different.  there is no way to judge them or measure them.  you can think i live in a fantasy world, i think i do not.  you have loads of information and material to throw at me to try and say that i do.  i have nothing more than a little faith saying that i am not.

 lastly i am a fool.  not that i thought anyone would kneel down at my posts.  i just saw it coming out different.  i haven't been that close to the Lord lately and you guys really helped me see where i stand.  at one point in my life i was on fire... but i have drifted away from his teachings and now i stand against a mass of people trying to defend his name.  i am not even worthy to speak it, much less try to talk to others about it.  i have read the bible more tonight than i have in months.

i dropped to my knees and asked God to forgive me and i cried like i haven't in a while.  i felt His hand, His love and His forgiveness.  He filled my heart again with a passion for His word.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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Quote: there is nothing to

Quote:
there is nothing to change, it is all going according to God's plan.

 

So if we go to hell it's god's fault? Well have fun with your sadistic god.

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i don't understand your

i don't understand your response.  ophios, God offers you an option.  scaring people to turn to God is not my way.  i have not even mentioned hell.  what i'm telling you is that God has a lot to offer.  He has love to give and you are one of his childern.  seeing you go to hell would hurt God, like a parent seeing their child being slowly burned alive.  God will deeply grieve the loss of you soul, He desires only your love.

 each of us as Christains have our purpose to fill.  we make up the Body of Christ. some are the hands, some are the feet but we move as one.

God is like our father.  He is our creater and like a father has to discpline his childern, we have to be corrected as well. we have certainly gone a long way from the old days.

when Jesus died for us, a lot changed.  God no longer enforces punishment as much as he just takes away his grace.  with that gone you are subject to the demons and spirits that have their reign on earth.  God allows bad things to happen because with the bad things we grow into stronger people.

you guys rarely refer to satan, but he is a powerful foe that constantly challenges the authorty of God.  he is knowledgable in the ways of our God and of the bible.  he is the master of deception and twists things that are true to be false.  misdirection. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: lastly i

sapphen wrote:

lastly i am a fool. not that i thought anyone would kneel down at my posts. i just saw it coming out different.

Quite honestly, what did you expect with a story about silver water and a robed man on a white horse?  Unless there is evidence, it was probably a pretty good bet that posters on this forum wouldn't be moved.

sapphen wrote:
you are constantly attacking us and putting us on the defense

We are not attacking you.  We are simply pointing out that a religious belief system doesn't make sense.  We are giving logical and rational reasons why it doesn't make sense.

sapphen wrote:
and now i stand against a mass of people trying to defend his name.

If there were a god, would he need you to defend him?  Surely he could take care of it himself.

 

 

 

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sapphen wrote: God allows

sapphen wrote:

God allows bad things to happen because with the bad things we grow into stronger people.

Would you let your child get cancer because the child would be stronger for it? 

todangst said it quite well:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/loving_parents

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Quote: ophios, God offers

Quote:
ophios, God offers you an option.

But he has a plan. Unless he doesn't mind diversion from it.

 But even that It's still up to him, he knows what it'll take for me to believe in him. He hasn't done so, and if he doesn't before I die, well all I can say is "He knew I wouldn't believe, it was all up to him."

 

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I don't think he's coming

Ahem... that reply was a bit out of date!
I must've had this window open for ages without refreshing! Embarassed


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okay.. i can't prove to you

okay.. i can't prove to you guys that there is a God. it is by faith that i know He is real.  asking for physical proof of a feeling is not rational.  it's like asking someone to prove that they are sad.  we are sayin look their are tears and you say it is raining and a drop has merely landed on your check. 

the story wasn't meant to move you as much as to tell you why i believe.  that was my proof.  i remember the smell and the feeling i had inside my heart.  i seen the change in my sister. no amount of logic could convience me that was not real.  logic deals with physical things, God is not physical he is spiritual.

LOL, the religious system doesn't make much sense to me either!  i work to understand it... but the motives of God are His and not for me to understand.  a lot of Christians wouldn't believe me if i told them what i believe to be true about God.  none of us have it right, we are just hanging onto the small concept that Jesus was real and He died for our sins so that we can be saved.

 God does not need defending but my right to say there is a God and He is present in my life does.

a child gettin cancer is a terrible thing.  maybe it is to make the parents stronger or the doctors more intelligent.  that child is a true maryter but it is not fair to blame God for his death.  my childhood girlfriend lost her sister to bone cancer.  it took a long time for their family to get over that loss but in the end they turned to God. a terrible thing like that is for the friends and family to work thru, and it is our job as Christains to be there for them, to help them.

 how many atheis have child funds for childern with cancer?  i know that there is christain centers dedicated to helping these childern.

Ophios, God does hear you.  if you have a want from Him drop to your knees and take it to Him in prayer.  if you ever were saved He will hear you and i will pray that He gives you what you are seeking.  open your eyes, your heart and your senses for what you seek to find is right infront of you... Jesus is knocking on the door of you heart man, just give Him a chance. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: okay.. i

sapphen wrote:

okay.. i can't prove to you guys that there is a God. it is by faith that i know He is real. asking for physical proof of a feeling is not rational. it's like asking someone to prove that they are sad. we are sayin look their are tears and you say it is raining and a drop has merely landed on your check.

Except in this case, I'm going to say "You probably just had a very intense dream after having a very emotional experience at church (some crazy preacher man jumpin' an' hollerin' ) ". I think most people have had experiences they have intense dreams about later, maybe a story or an event in their life replaying. I've had them myself about books, movies, video games, or in some cases nothing really at all, but I never thought them to be the truth.

These are from about 4 years ago:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1414421

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1415798

Without that day at church (not to mention all the peer/adult pressure), would you have had that dream?

If Satan is so good at deceiving people, how do you know it was God in that dream?

sapphen wrote:

the story wasn't meant to move you as much as to tell you why i believe. that was my proof. i remember the smell and the feeling i had inside my heart. i seen the change in my sister. no amount of logic could convience me that was not real. logic deals with physical things, God is not physical he is spiritual.

Logic deals with ideas like "A therefore B." If god has nothing to do with logic, then why tell a story in the form of "(Your Story) therefore you believe in god?"

sapphen wrote:

God does not need defending but my right to say there is a God and He is present in my life does.

Sir, I am a staunch defender of the Constitution of the United States and as such I would battle to the death for your right to say that God is present. However, it doesn't mean I have to think it true. (And I would appreciate if our elected leaders didn't invoke his name as justification for their actions.)

We aren't saying it should be against the law, we just want people to think rationally.

sapphen wrote:

a child gettin cancer is a terrible thing. maybe it is to make the parents stronger or the doctors more intelligent. that child is a true maryter but it is not fair to blame God for his death. my childhood girlfriend lost her sister to bone cancer. it took a long time for their family to get over that loss but in the end they turned to God. a terrible thing like that is for the friends and family to work thru, and it is our job as Christains to be there for them, to help them.

Why not blame god? With omnipotence, comes omni-responsibility. If he made everything, knowing how everything would turn out, then he is responsible for everything in the world. He could have made a world in which your girlfriend's sister didn't get bone cancer, but he didn't.

If satan is evil, where did satan come from? (Hint: Check Isaiah 45:7 of a KJV)

sapphen wrote:

how many atheis have child funds for childern with cancer? i know that there is christain centers dedicated to helping these childern.

Ouch. Don't assume that atheists don't give to charity. Christians don't have a monopoly on kindness. Sadly, this seems to be a common misconception of atheists. Without god, most christians seem to be told, atheists become selfish, violent people, when, in fact, a lot of us reach the conclusion that we have one life and it is here on the beautiful blue-green rock with our fellow human beings and because we're all related, we should help each other out. Not to say there aren't atheist jerks, but claiming that would be like saying that there are no Christian jerks.

Also, you said that Jesus' teachings were moral and good. Again, I present to you Jesus upholding the "old law" (OT) including several passages that command you to kill disobedient children. Is this moral and good?

-Triften


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your dreams are very

your dreams are very interesting, they say a lot to me.  i myself have had quite of few dreams of a large beast chasing me thru the woods.  i had the dream of this beast about a week before my unborn child was lost.  i tried to fight him but i had no weapon.  he beat me to a pulp.  then he disappeared.  when i got back to my feet he was there with blood on his hands and he told me that it was done. i can remember the helplessness i felt as i looked into his tiny red eyes.

 i can not argue with your logic.  i personally like logic and i feel like i am fairly intelligent.  but there is no logic to God, He just is.  He is because He said He is. i mean we have nothing to bring to the table but a bible and that is not true in your eyes.  the truth is, i can't prove God exsits to you as much as you can't prove he doesn't to me.  what word would define that?  we know air is real, we can't see it, but we feel it and breath it.  i know God is real because i can feel Him and breath Him.

one thing that really convenced me of God's presents is when i was exploring new age materials.  when you are alone, do you really think you are the only one in the room.  how would u see something unseen to the eyes?  no logic could tell you that.  you have never had an out of body experience?  or a dream that just seemed a little bit off. 

 Jesus gave us new laws to follow.  i dunno, maybe you have a verse that says Jesus wants to eat disobedient childern, but does that really sound right?  i don't care how you rework or state the verse, Jesus Christ does not want you to murder babies, that would not be logical.

i don't assume that atheis give or don't give.  a childs death is a shocking thing to debate over.  God is not a murder of childern and just because there are somethings that we can't understand, that is reason to call Him murder.  how does childern die of cancer in your world?  why can't the same be said in our world with God present?  just because he can control all doesn't mean He has to, that would be a totally different world.  is it reasonable that a group of people are trying to convience Christains that there is no God and He likes killing babies?

God has made a world that he controls, it is called heaven.  i feel like we all have long separated from God, we are all so far away we have even separated from ourselfs.  humans can be very powerful, supernatural even but our logic holds us back.  it is in the face of defeat or utter despiration that you will see that kind of faith, mankind prevailing over impossible odds.  we have the power we just choose to ignor it.

the US constitution is an example of faith.  these religious men had faith that they would win and set us free.  God was in them and thereforth God was put into our constitution.  i can't argue with you the fear i have of the things being done in God's name today.  i would almost understand why people think christains are out of date by the actions of churches, leaders and powers to be.  greed and power can be a very scary thing that even christians are not immune to. a world without religion would not stop that.

So you can not find one good teaching of Jesus in the bible?  just for fun and off the top of your head, what is one good thing that Jesus has taught... a principle that He has shown us.  certainly someone who can quote the bible so freely can give one account of His goodness.

 

 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: okay.. i

sapphen wrote:
okay.. i can't prove to you guys that there is a God. it is by faith that i know He is real. asking for physical proof of a feeling is not rational. it's like asking someone to prove that they are sad. we are sayin look their are tears and you say it is raining and a drop has merely landed on your check.

If God is just a feeling like 'happiness' or 'sadness' then fair enough.
However, God is supposed to be an objective being who created and has power over everything. An objective being like that should be provable through logical methods, just like other objective facts  about our world (e.g. gravity) are.

Quote:
the story wasn't meant to move you as much as to tell you why i believe. that was my proof. i remember the smell and the feeling i had inside my heart. i seen the change in my sister. no amount of logic could convience me that was not real. logic deals with physical things, God is not physical he is spiritual.

If God interacts with the physical world (e.g. miracles, creation) then he must be physical in some way.

sapphen wrote:
i can not argue with your logic. i personally like logic and i feel like i am fairly intelligent. but there is no logic to God, He just is. He is because He said He is. i mean we have nothing to bring to the table but a bible and that is not true in your eyes. the truth is, i can't prove God exsits to you as much as you can't prove he doesn't to me. what word would define that? we know air is real, we can't see it, but we feel it and breath it. i know God is real because i can feel Him and breath Him.

The laws of logic apply to anything describable in language.
For instance, so long as you are using the words 'not' & 'and' correctly then you will not violate the law of non-contradiction.
e.g. Something cannot both be true and not true.

So if someone is violating laws of logic then they are misusing the meaning of words. If you aren't using words properly then what do your sentences mean? That's why some atheists complain of the word 'God' being meaningless.
This probably sounded really complicated... Smiling
I'll try and summarise:
1) The rules of logic follow from the rules of language.
2) If something is 'outside' the rules of logic then it is outside the rules of language.
3) If something is outside the rules of language then we can't say or write anything about it. So writing about something 'outside' the rules of logic is kind of self refuting.

Did this make sense to you? Smiling


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you make me smile when i

you make me smile when i read this.  you put a lot of effort into it, but i don't think you understand.  God is not physical, God is beyond logic.  just like we don't fully understand time and/or really prove it's exsistance, we know it is there.

God is much more than a feeling.  He invokes a feeling.  you all are absurd if you believe mankind has discovered all the aspects of this world and it's mysteries. you can't solve a problem if you don't have all the pieces to the puzzle.  it's like doing a math problem without the numbers 7, 8 and 9.  we as a people are still learning and going beyond our previous knowledge.  have you thought that maybe prehaps something exsists beyond our current logic.

speaking of which, there are some theroies that gravity lies in another dimension.  would u care to prove or disprove that.  what else is in that dimension?

we have two sides of our brains, one uses logic and the other is intuitive.  you say that we limit our knowledge yet you guys are strickly focusing on the left side of the brain.  one day you will see wisdom replaces logic, and only by using all the wonderful aspects of your mind would u see the truth.

i feel God in my soul like gravity feels a falling stone.   God moves other people.  that is one way that He works his miracles.  i am asking you to look beyond logic because it does not hold the key to this world and things yet to be discovered.  faith is the root of discovery because discovery is the manifestation of proof.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: one thing

sapphen wrote:

one thing that really convenced me of God's presents is when i was exploring new age materials. when you are alone, do you really think you are the only one in the room. how would u see something unseen to the eyes? no logic could tell you that. you have never had an out of body experience? or a dream that just seemed a little bit off.

In the past, we (humans) have seen the unseen using tools. Microscopes, telescopes, radio receivers, etc. I'm not discounting that we may discover ways of detecting extraordinary things (perhaps the thing decribed as "chi" or "ki" in Chinese or Japanese, respectively; evidence of the Gaia theory; life the likes of which we would not have imagined previously), but currently we have no hard evidence of what is typically called paranormal.

It appears that you are taking the view of what is called "nonoverlapping magisteria". That's the view that "science deals with this stuff and religion deals with this stuff". This sort of works as long as they don't try to overlap, but, in the past, trouble has arisen when science started discovering things that went against church teachings. Galileo had the gall to claim that the Earth went around the Sun and for this he was excommunicated. You can see the problems in the current day with evolution showing that animals can become more complex over time while religion claims that everything is as it has been.

If we ignore the errors of the bible and focus on the idea of god, well I consider that what I call a "brain in a jar" problem. My first encounter with philosophy in college was at a meeting of the philosophy club (free pizza) and they posed the question "What if we are brains in jars being fed stimuli so we think we are interacting with each other?" (like the Matrix). To me, if the simulation is perfect, the question is meaningless because then there is no way of knowing whether or not we are, therefore we should behave as if we AREN'T brains in jars untill we see evidence otherwise.

If no one can prove god exists or not, why behave as if he/she/it exists?

sapphen wrote:

Jesus gave us new laws to follow. i dunno, maybe you have a verse that says Jesus wants to eat disobedient childern, but does that really sound right? i don't care how you rework or state the verse, Jesus Christ does not want you to murder babies, that would not be logical.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. (Mt 5:17)

The old law commands stoning your disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

Jesus advocates the old laws and the old laws include the stoning of your children. I'm not reworking the verses here.

sapphen wrote:

i don't assume that atheis give or don't give.

Okay. Your question implied that atheists don't do charity work.

sapphen wrote:

just because he can control all doesn't mean He has to, that would be a totally different world.

If God decided how to create the world and God knew how everything would play out, then how can we have any power to make decisions. If I'm going to hell (and according to the bible, I most certainly am), then god knew, before I was even born, that I would be born and live as I am only to be sent to hell. According to that, it seems I had no choice in the matter.

sapphen wrote:

the US constitution is an example of faith. these religious men had faith that they would win and set us free. God was in them and thereforth God was put into our constitution. i can't argue with you the fear i have of the things being done in God's name today. i would almost understand why people think christains are out of date by the actions of churches, leaders and powers to be. greed and power can be a very scary thing that even christians are not immune to. a world without religion would not stop that.

No particular god was put in the constitution, only each person's "creator". Thomas Jefferson was a staunch atheist http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm and a number of founding fathers left behind records confirming their non-Christian beliefs as well. http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html Bejamin Franklin pondered the idea that a truly infinite being would have no need of praise or worship.

 

sapphen wrote:

So you can not find one good teaching of Jesus in the bible? just for fun and off the top of your head, what is one good thing that Jesus has taught... a principle that He has shown us. certainly someone who can quote the bible so freely can give one account of His goodness.

I know he had some good ideas, but the problem is that many people use the morality they already have to pick and choose ideas from the bible. The morality they use is one that we all have programmed into ourselves from natural selection: help our fellow humans, be kind, do good. Studies and surveys have shown that the basic ideas are universal whether people have learned about the bible or allah or jesus or none of those.

-Triften


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triften wrote: Thomas

triften wrote:
Thomas Jefferson was a staunch atheist http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Thomas Jefferson, as discussed elsewhere on this site, was not an atheist, but a deist. Quoting the site you linked, "Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time)." And, in Jefferson's own words (also on that site), "I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be..."

While Jefferson was no Christian, he was neither an atheist as well.


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sapphen wrote: *Faith - is

sapphen wrote:
*Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical date, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole.

Not quite. Beliefs are not a free choice. We cannot choose to believe a wall does not exist and then walk freely through it. We cannot choose to believe what we don't believe.

Faith is belief based on desire, but desire itself can be, and is, inculcated into us. We don't choose our desires so much as we choose to satisfy them.

 

However, your real concern ought to be how freely you accept that faith exists in contradistinction to reason.

 

Quote:

Faith can be placed in a person, inanimate object, state of affairs, proposition or body of propositions such as a religious creed.

You're equivocating on the term 'faith'. "Faith" in a religious sense is simply belief without justification. We can call this 'non contingent faith'

"Faith' in a colloquial sense, we can call 'trust', and such trust is often placed in things within the real world. But theistic faith has no direct relationship to colloquial usages of faith, because we can actually have empirical data concerning entities in the real world within which we have 'colloquial faith'

Quote:

you guys have such hate for God, yet you do not believe him to be real.

If there is a 'hate' that joins us, it's hatred of minds wasted on irrationalism, not hate of an imaginary being.

However, seeing as religion is a projection of the believer, it's no surprise that you conflate the situation as you have...

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Strafio wrote: If God

Strafio wrote:


If God interacts with the physical world (e.g. miracles, creation) then he must be physical in some way.

Indeed. If 'he' works causally at all, he enters the causal chain, and becomes natural.

Furthemore, such thinking undermines the entire suppposed point of the 'god hypothesis' - i.e. a solution for an infinite series of causes....

 

 

Quote:

The laws of logic apply to anything describable in language.

Yes, logic applies to referents, to words. I'm just happy to note this because it's a common error for some to suppose that logic applies to things.

Quote:
 

For instance, so long as you are using the words 'not' & 'and' correctly then you will not violate the law of non-contradiction.
e.g. Something cannot both be true and not true.

So if someone is violating laws of logic then they are misusing the meaning of words. If you aren't using words properly then what do your sentences mean? That's why some atheists complain of the word 'God' being meaningless.

Yep.

Quote:
 


This probably sounded really complicated... Smiling
I'll try and summarise:
1) The rules of logic follow from the rules of language.
2) If something is 'outside' the rules of logic then it is outside the rules of language.
3) If something is outside the rules of language then we can't say or write anything about it. So writing about something 'outside' the rules of logic is kind of self refuting.

Did this make sense to you? Smiling

 I don't know about  him, but it seems familiar to me. 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


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in you dreams, what does

in you dreams, what does the beast symbolize to you? what of the blade of light? where did the knight come from?

most of our dreams we tend to be all the characters, each an aspect of ourselves. what did the knight truly slay in your dreams?

triften you are intelligent and pose an agrument worthy of scholars, but your fight now is in vain my brother. too long do we lose ourselves in logic but there are hints to our destiny in our dreams. there is a side to humans science can not explain and just because they have named it does not mean they can dismiss it.

triften, i see a calling in you and i would like to pray to our God that you find it. don't get lost in this logic. allow passage for wisdom, the fermentation of facts, to make way in your soul. i know you feel it and are confused but there are answers here and pled with you to seek them.

look beyond the sterotype of a christan... and look to your heart.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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Richard Dawkins....

Richard Dawkins....

 

todangst, we have crossed mountians since my first post...  also keep in mind that i may not be able to keep up with you for i am not a master debater such as yourself.  you may have to talk to me in layman's terms for me to understand fully your points.

thank you for joining our converstion Smiling 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: you make me

sapphen wrote:
you make me smile when i read this. you put a lot of effort into it, but i don't think you understand. God is not physical, God is beyond logic. just like we don't fully understand time and/or really prove it's exsistance, we know it is there.


Like kids know santa is watching them or is this different? When you say god is outside of logic you are put it into a category which you feel is untouchable. Does that sound like an honest argument to you?

Quote:
God is much more than a feeling. He invokes a feeling. you all are absurd if you believe mankind has discovered all the aspects of this world and it's mysteries.


Right, that’s why we don't stop looking out our existence and science still exists.

Quote:
you can't solve a problem if you don't have all the pieces to the puzzle. it's like doing a math problem without the numbers 7, 8 and 9. we as a people are still learning and going beyond our previous knowledge. have you thought that maybe prehaps something exsists beyond our current logic.


Sure, but saying god did it to fill in the blanks is the last thing someone should do when they are trying to find more knowledge.

Quote:
speaking of which, there are some theroies that gravity lies in another dimension. would u care to prove or disprove that. what else is in that dimension?


I don't know of those theories so I can't really have a position on that.

Quote:
we have two sides of our brains, one uses logic and the other is intuitive. you say that we limit our knowledge yet you guys are strickly focusing on the left side of the brain. one day you will see wisdom replaces logic, and only by using all the wonderful aspects of your mind would u see the truth.


Our brain also creates ideas and stories I don't try to find knowledge from good feelings or what sounds nice. Simply put truth isn't always sweet. Also wisdom is a tricky idea to suggest wisdom replaces logic at the least sounds fishy.

Quote:
i feel God in my soul like gravity feels a falling stone.


I wasn't aware gravity is an entity that feels things.

Quote:
God moves other people. that is one way that He works his miracles.
Quote:


That sounds like a cop out. You just said miracles can be done in a way you don't see gods hand in it. Seems like a set up so even after someone shows you how it happened you can still call it a miracle.

Quote:
i am asking you to look beyond logic because it does not hold the key to this world and things yet to be discovered. faith is the root of discovery because discovery is the manifestation of proof.


Ok now you are just getting way out there. You just said logic doesn't mean anything and faith is greater then proof. With that kind of thinking no wonder you are theist.


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my friend i am not

my friend i am not presenting to you arguements, simply the truth. we don't have the answers. you think science is discovering new facts but they are merely discovering what was already created.

i know nothing of your theories yet i still stand here to post. not knowing is the beginning of understanding. the truth is hidden and some truths may never be known.

i'm not going to say anything here that someone else more wiser than myself has already said. my proof of God is in my heart and to you that makes me feebleminded, but to me it sets me free. where i see a God of love you see a worthless void.

i have a thoery. i believe our planet exsists inside an atom. the universe is contained within itself. so if one was to maginfy an atom close enough they would find another universe and if we where able back out far enough we would see that we are merely one of many making up a larger mass.

lets just say that this large mass is God. so infact God is everywhere, we are living on Him and He is living in us at the same time. how could one disprove my theory? it is nothing more than an idea and the truth of it is unknown. there could be faith in it's belief and we are currently living on the proof but until we can discover a method to back out far enough we would never know.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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Eggplant wrote: triften

Eggplant wrote:

triften wrote:
Thomas Jefferson was a staunch atheist http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Thomas Jefferson, as discussed elsewhere on this site, was not an atheist, but a deist. Quoting the site you linked, "Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time)." And, in Jefferson's own words (also on that site), "I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be..."

While Jefferson was no Christian, he was neither an atheist as well.

D'oh, I knew that. Sorry. My bad.

-Triften 


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sapphen wrote: in you

sapphen wrote:

in you dreams, what does the beast symbolize to you? what of the blade of light? where did the knight come from?

most of our dreams we tend to be all the characters, each an aspect of ourselves. what did the knight truly slay in your dreams?

This far past, I don't know. I did rather well in my humanities classes in college, so I'm sure I could scrape together something to write a term paper on. Smiling In the dream, I think I was the keeper of the blade and the part of the knight was played by a friend from high school, Nick. I think near the time of that dream, he had dropped by for a visit (from several states away.) Either way, I'm fairly certain I could write at least 3 different analyses of my dream.

sapphen wrote:

triften you are intelligent and pose an agrument worthy of scholars, but your fight now is in vain my brother. too long do we lose ourselves in logic but there are hints to our destiny in our dreams. there is a side to humans science can not explain and just because they have named it does not mean they can dismiss it.

To me, saying that we can loose ourselves in logic is akin to saying "we can think too much" and, while I know one can get lost in thinking without acting, I believe that not thinking is the greatest sin of all.

sapphen wrote:

triften, i see a calling in you and i would like to pray to our God that you find it. don't get lost in this logic. allow passage for wisdom, the fermentation of facts, to make way in your soul. i know you feel it and are confused but there are answers here and pled with you to seek them.

That's another problem, thinking requires being unsure about one's answers and being willing to be wrong, while religion offers "answers" and "Truth" which, to me, are a poisonous fruit, because they replace thought and curiosity with dogma. I spent a lot of my teenage years "shopping" for a religion, going to church services with friends, wondering what I was missing. I realized what I was missing was a want for easy answers. So many around me were so scared and nervous about life, they wanted something, anything, that they could feel was the "Truth".

sapphen wrote:

look beyond the sterotype of a christan... and look to your heart.

I do. I judge individuals by their actions. I think you may be a kind-hearted person even without god.

sapphen wrote:

my proof of God is in my heart and to you that makes me feebleminded, but to me it sets me free.

What sets me free, is the idea that we are here to explore and find our own meanings for life, independent of commandments and the approval of any god.

-Triften


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i understand the search for

i understand the search for God. i have traveled a lot of different paths. i took a little from each and i guess i'm most closely compared to a christan. i can't answer for all christans but God was there thoughout all my searching.

when i took up magick i was protected. i had a lot of bad energy following me and i was messing with some things i didn't understand. i learned of astural projection, extending my mind and aura, working on physic abilities. all very against christan teaching. i had experiences that can't be proven. i heard things and talked to beings not of this world. i've heard deamons and felt angels. LOL i bet both the atheis and christans would agree that i was crazy. i truly learned of a deep fear that even shadows me today. God protected me, but He will not take that from me.. even though i have prayed many times for Him to, it is now a part of me and i have grown from it.

i would not be as sure of myself if i didn't quest for knowledge, He put it in us to discover, build and grow. i myself am still searching for knowledge in the phsyical and spiritual worlds.

i have broke plenty of commandments and hurt (and will hurt) many people. but His forgiveness is unending. He tells us of these guidelines, but he also says we will break them. i just do my best to hold them ones i can, strive to work on the ones i can't, and hold on to the faith that He is here in my heart.

punishment from God to me is when i stray away from Him. peace is out of my life and i'm alone again trying to find the pieces. atheis will say that i am dependant on Him... and i am. but that has never limited my thoughts, dreams or inspiration.. it has enchanced them and gave me power beyond what i could contain.

man, when i am in His will, which i find is driven by my deepest feelings, i am on fire! and it's not like some major event that i have overcome, but a series of small events that became stumps in my path. my God knows me and He only wants what is best for me. He knows what i need and capiable of... it's a relationship that could never be explained. it's the little things that grow to be the biggest.

don't have any fear of His wants interfering with yours. He still allows us to explore safely. He knows of our basic needs and He fills them. i can not stress enough how much freedom He gives us.

i know christans tend to push apon people what works for them, but God is a diverse God and has purpose for all of us. i claim to be a Christan to take back our name and let people know that we arn't like what you think. we do not lack intelligence anymore than anyone else but we are sheep and He is the Sheppard. and like a good Sheppard he lets us graise and stray away. when a wolf comes to claim our hide, it's like His eyes never left us.. He is waiting with a staff to slay the beast. like sheep i feel safe asleep under his feet.

explore, search out your answers, but just know that there is a reasonable God that would like to help. He is real, He is inside me right now... and trust me, the easy answers that He provides defently complexs theirselves in time.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: you make me

sapphen wrote:
you make me smile when i read this. you put a lot of effort into it,

I aim to please! Smiling

Quote:
but i don't think you understand. God is not physical, God is beyond logic. just like we don't fully understand time and/or really prove it's exsistance, we know it is there.

Remember what I said about logic?
Anything we can describe in language is bound by logic.
Anything you say is bound by logic, if it is to mean anything at all.
If God is beyond logic then all your words about him are meaningless.
A bit like "asjfldajgl ouhsglija idhglaihgd" or "carrot green try" is.

Quote:
God is much more than a feeling. He invokes a feeling. you all are absurd if you believe mankind has discovered all the aspects of this world and it's mysteries.

1) You have the experience/feeling but what makes you think that it had to have a cause from the outside world? How internal psychology has just as many mysteries as, if not more than, the outside world.

2) You talk of God causing something. If God causes things then 'he' is a natural being. It might be one of natures mysteries that we are yet to discover but natural all the same. This

Quote:
speaking of which, there are some theroies that gravity lies in another dimension. would u care to prove or disprove that. what else is in that dimension?

Dimension is a mathematical concept.
We describe space in 3 dimensions and give time a fourth dimension.
However, the mathematical descriptions of what happens in time and space are complex and we might require extra variables, i.e. extra dimensions in order to describe it correctly. So these aren't other dimensions as in other 'places', just extra variables we need in order to describe the universe correctly.

Quote:
we have two sides of our brains, one uses logic and the other is intuitive. you say that we limit our knowledge yet you guys are strickly focusing on the left side of the brain. one day you will see wisdom replaces logic, and only by using all the wonderful aspects of your mind would u see the truth.

Our intuition also uses logic. It is much more efficient than our conscious logic and deals with problems a lot quicker. (after all, we have too many decisions to make in the real world to work them all out mathematically!)
The downside is that it sometimes makes mistakes and misleads us so we need to use more reliable logical methods to correct it.

Remember, logic applies to anything that described in language so anything your intuition tells you that you can describe in language is subject to logic.


todangst wrote:
I don't know about him, but it seems familiar to me.

Lol! I probably learnt half of it from you in the first place! Laughing out loud


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sapphen wrote:Richard

sapphen wrote:

Richard Dawkins....

Not one word of my post stems from a reading of Dawkins. If we agree, it's because the concepts I've discussed predate us both. I say that not because I have a problem with you thinking that I am employing Dawkin's reasoning (I don't) but because I don't want you to think that the points I have raised are 'atheist' points.... much of what I've discussed in this thread comes via theology (!) and dates back centuries...

 

 

Quote:

todangst, we have crossed mountians since my first post... also keep in mind that i may not be able to keep up with you for i am not a master debater such as yourself. you may have to talk to me in layman's terms for me to understand fully your points.

thank you for joining our converstion Smiling

 

Thanks for the compliment, if you want to hear more about anything in particular, let me know.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


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there is power in words. 

there is power in words.  i would be lying if i said i complete agree with your concludion.  words are also art such as abstract poetry which envokes feelings without a direct point or symbolic logic if you will.

this time i would have to question the value of logic and would have to claim it is in the eye of the beholder.  God is beyond logic in the fact that he can not be logically defined.  aspects of Him can be but not the entirety.  He exsists in the rational and irrational.

as a boy i studied okinawa kenpo karate kobudo for about a year and thought i knew it all.  i have already learned discpline and repeation and was ready to fight the world.

one day after school i confronted a bully.  being over confient i insulted him and told him he couldn't beat me up anyway because i would block everything he threw at me.  as i turned to walk away that kid beat the tar outta me.  i mean i was crawling away and he was holding my shirt pulling me back.

after that moment i realized that my main objective was not to be the aggressor but the defender.  not only did i become the bully but i got beat up too. no matter how many competions i came second or third in (i got first once!), my pride defeated me.

i do not believe we can come to an ends with this conversation. while i do not agree with what you are saying i must bow down and back away. if logic and only define logical things.. i can not debate with logic like that.

all i can tell you is God is in my heart and what i have stated in my posts where given to me by God.  i welcome any other conversation or questions that you may have.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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very strange but i know very

very strange but i know very little of dawkins. not really sure why i put that in there...


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sapphen wrote: there is

sapphen wrote:
there is power in words. i would be lying if i said i complete agree with your concludion. words are also art such as abstract poetry which envokes feelings without a direct point or symbolic logic if you will.

Yes. This is because the point in abstract poetry isn't supposed to be an accurate description of reality but to evoke feelings. Sometimes I think that poetry is deliberately illogical in order to evoke the feeling of confusion! Eye-wink

Quote:
this time i would have to question the value of logic and would have to claim it is in the eye of the beholder.

Logic and truth go hand in hand.
Value logic as much as you value truth.

Quote:
i do not believe we can come to an ends with this conversation. while i do not agree with what you are saying i must bow down and back away. if logic and only define logical things.. i can not debate with logic like that.

If you are trying to describe reality using language then logic will apply. erhaps you will understand what I mean if I give you a better explanation of what logic is?

Law of identity: If A is true and B is A then B is true.
This should be common sense if you understand the word 'is'.

Law of non-contradiction: A cannot be both true and not true.
Again, if you understand the words 'not' & 'and' this ought to make perfect sense. If I say something is illogical then it has broken one of these rules. That means rules of language have been broken. What meaning can a sentence have if it is not using words correctly?  


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LAWL...still at it eh? i

LAWL...still at it eh? i did bow out u know :|

have no problem understanding logic, if i had any misconceptions i have material available to me to clairify the defination. your words say nothing to me, it is like an endless paradox circling within itself. are you truly a student of logic?

i am an artist. logic is full of holes with too many words. it is flawed and overrated but like i said before, others more wiser than myself have said it better:

 

“Logic is like the sword--those who appeal to it shall perish by it.” -Samuel Butler

“Logic is neither an art nor a science but a dodge”
- Stendhal

“The logic of words should yield to the logic of realities.” - Louis D. Brandeis

“To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.” - Giorgio de Chirico

“That Logic has advanced in this sure course, even from the earliest times, is apparent from the fact that, since Aristotle, it has been unable to advance a step, and thus to all appearance has reached its completion.” -Immanuel Kant

“Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

“Nature cares nothing for logic, our human logic: she has her own, which we do not recognize and do not acknowledge until we are crushed under its wheel” - Ivan Turgenev

“Logic is in the eye of the logician.” -Gloria Steinem

“No mistake is more common and more fatuous than appealing to logic in cases which are beyond her jurisdiction.” -Samuel Butler

“Logic is a poor guide compared with custom.” - Winston Churchill

*“Logic is the anatomy of thought” - John Locke

 

the last one i threw in for logic's defense. there were a few others but i thought that one described it the best. logic is great to a certain extent. it holds some viable methods to help construct thought and math. but you, my young friend are gonna to have to use more than the above logic to convience me that God is not real.

although u may or may not agree with the above quotes, i do want to let you know that i do not stand alone with my disagreement with logic. is love, hate, fear logical? 

you are bringing nothing new to the table, no thoughts of your own just recycled retorts that you have read. do not place all your faith in logic somethings are beyond that.

 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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I have a right to live

I have a right to live without interference from people who believe in fairy tales. I have a right to not have your false religion forced upon me. Until you and all those like you lay down your arms in the war of belief, I will never lay down mine.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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you have the right to live

you have the right to live anyway that suits you my friend. i am truly sorry if someone of our faith has tried to force you into believing anything.

as i am aware of, i hold no arms... (of the removed limbs or metal kind). this is not a war and just like you are striving for you right to live the way you wish, i too strive for the same.

lets not get this off on the wrong foot, for i am confused by the agression. had your family tried to force you into religion? are you in you're late 20's and still living at home? i can understand the force of loved ones, they can be the hardest on you. my rents finally told me to get out and get married.

they loved me and i did put them thru a lot. i smoked a lot of pot.. between you and me probly still would if i didn't have a kid and bills to think of but don't tell the christans i said that. after gettin caught and put on probation i kinda had to decide to self indulge or stop.

drugs can be very dangerious though. be cautious not to let them control your life, i was not successful in that. yet as i said when i was younger, God made the plants, man made beer.. whom do you trust? well, thinking about it i guess that wouldn't apply here eh?

i understand that you may think that i live in a fairy tale, but i'm just saying it is more to me. i come with no proof other than what is in my heart. again, i do not wish to force you into religion all i can do is give you my testimony and offer my ear as a friend.  lets open a channel for a good conversation even if we decide to agree not to agree.

God has changed me in many ways and i have searched a lot of methods to reach him. i am not what you call a "normal" christan. i believe in Jesus Christ and He died for us so that we can be saved but as far as judging eveyone else and telling them they are wrong and going to hell.. man that's not my bag of tea.

God is real, we just haven't fount the physcial proof yet. gravity still exsisted before it was discovered. we are growing in our knowledge but mankind has a long way to go before they could even begin to find out all the mysteries of this universe.

the calling from Him is an individual one. it is hard to hear Him when others are forcing and clouding your mind. but He is in all things and He wants to be in your life don't dismiss Him so quickly my friend. even now He contiunes to amaze me.

 

 

 

 

 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: you have

sapphen wrote:

you have the right to live anyway that suits you my friend. i am truly sorry if someone of our faith has tried to force you into believing anything.

Your faith itself forces itself upon me, as do most others. I can point in 50 different directions and find ways your faith or anothers faith is forced on me. From the calendar to aggressive advertising to door to door salesmen.

sapphen wrote:

as i am aware of, i hold no arms... (of the removed limbs or metal kind). this is not a war and just like you are striving for you right to live the way you wish, i too strive for the same.

Ah, but it is a war. For a long time I didn't want to believe it, and many others out there cling to that same false hope. But it is a war all the same. A war I am forced to either participate in or submit to. The fact that you are even here shows you too participate in the war to some extent.

sapphen wrote:

lets not get this off on the wrong foot, for i am confused by the agression.

Any aggression in my comments are in response to aggression in yours. If I go to a theist site and start arguing atheism, I'm being aggressive. A theist coming to an atheist site to argue their religion is also being aggressive. Your following comments are further proof of your aggression.

sapphen wrote:
had your family tried to force you into religion?

Quite the opposite. Though my parents are theists to some extent, they never forced their beliefs on me.

sapphen wrote:
are you in you're late 20's and still living at home?

Yes to the first and no to the second. Though if it were ten years ago I'd be holding the same position and be in my teens and living at home. 20 years ago would see no difference from 10, though my arguments would have lost some of their power through my ignorance. Ten years from now I'll be in my late 30's and arguing the same, with more knowledge than I have now. I might live with a parent then, though I highly doubt it. Either way, I would argue the same. Don't try and stereo-type me. It won't work.

sapphen wrote:
i can understand the force of loved ones, they can be the hardest on you. my rents finally told me to get out and get married. they loved me and i did put them thru a lot. i smoked a lot of pot.. between you and me probly still would if i didn't have a kid and bills to think of but don't tell the christans i said that.

Heh. Technically you could argue that god put weed on earth for you to smoke. Bible says so.

sapphen wrote:
after gettin caught and put on probation i kinda had to decide to self indulge or stop.

Tsk tsk. Rule #1: Don't get caught. Rule #2: Don't get addicted. The breaking of rule #2 almost always leads to the breaking of rule #1. Sticking out tongue

sapphen wrote:
drugs can be very dangerious though. be cautious not to let them control your life, i was not successful in that.

Kind of depends on how far you let yourself go. You don't need drugs to self destruct. They can merely accelerate the process.

sapphen wrote:
yet as i said when i was younger, God made the plants, man made beer.. whom do you trust?

I view them both as natural, though I feel one is far more detremental to society than the other.

sapphen wrote:
well, thinking about it i guess that wouldn't apply here eh?

Yeah, I think we've strayed from the topic.

sapphen wrote:
i understand that you may think that i live in a fairy tale, but i'm just saying it is more to me.

I'm sure it is. And I have absolutely no problem with your beliefs. If the day ever comes that people keep their beliefs to themselves I will be able to relax. There's a lot of changes that need to happen first though.

sapphen wrote:
i come with no proof other than what is in my heart. again, i do not wish to force you into religion all i can do is give you my testimony and offer my ear as a friend.  lets open a channel for a good conversation even if we decide to agree not to agree.

I have no problem conversing with people, be they theists or not. I have many friends who are theists. It's rather hard not to.

sapphen wrote:

God has changed me in many ways and i have searched a lot of methods to reach him. i am not what you call a "normal" christan. i believe in Jesus Christ and He died for us so that we can be saved but as far as judging eveyone else and telling them they are wrong and going to hell.. man that's not my bag of tea.

Good for you. My goal is to insure the rest of theism adopts a similar philosophy. Just with an extra step.

sapphen wrote:
God is real, we just haven't fount the physcial proof yet.

Maybe. If god is real, he's hidden it pretty well so far.

sapphen wrote:
gravity still exsisted before it was discovered.

I think the term there is a bit mistaken. Noone really discovered gravity, someone just came up with a mathematical equation that explained it.

sapphen wrote:
we are growing in our knowledge but mankind has a long way to go before they could even begin to find out all the mysteries of this universe.

True.

sapphen wrote:
the calling from Him is an individual one. it is hard to hear Him when others are forcing and clouding your mind. but He is in all things and He wants to be in your life don't dismiss Him so quickly my friend. even now He contiunes to amaze me.

I was rather open to the concept for quite awhile, I just never actually believed it. It never chose to show itself to me in any capacity. And the more I learned, the more improbable and impossible the concept became.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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LOL.. i'll never understand

LOL.. i'll never understand this point by point conversation.  i guess it helps to break things down, both sides have a lot to say but it seems so unnatural.

well i guess you are right, it is a war.  nothing we can do about that. i'm sure if your friends and family believe in God there is nothing new i can really bring to this conversation.  to be honest i'm only 26 and have a lot of learning to do myself.

 i guess my time on this board is coming to an end.  like you said, i really don't belong here.  i'm sorry that you see it so much that you've became annoyed with the thought of God.  i guess that was one of our mistakes as christans.

you all try to prove us wrong but until you get that feeling from God, like a cup running over, you could never understand why we try to push it on other people.  a christan's life if filled with ups and downs and we feel more complete when we try to tell others.  sometimes our efforts are worthy.... and sometimes they are not.

when we get wrapped up in the "religion" we become self absorbed and tend to point out others' flaws.  but the "religion" is not what we are.  it is only a downside. 

 Jesus even warned us of ourselves but we want to change others first.  i guess todays christans have it made.  in the times after Jesus people were killed for praying to God.  now that was faith...  i wish i had that kind of faith.

God is real to me.  if you've read my previous posts you might get more of an insite of why.  i've pulled all my rabbits out though.  it was defently an honor to post with you guys on this site.  i'm not sure if i have effected you much but i have been refreshed in my beliefs and now look to crawl out of the hole i've been hiding in. 

even christans get depressed.  it's almost ironic that i fount inspiration on an atheis board eh?  i will begin to close with this... i can tell you that God and the Holy spirit is real because i have felt them in my life.  that is more than enough proof for me.  what i do ask of each of you, is that you don't close you mind to the limitless.  logic and rational has helped us in life but you can't base your entire exsistance by it.  there will always be something outside your box.

even christans question sometime it is natural for all of us to.  but there is a devil out there that wants your soul.  make sure you are asking the right questions, walking down the right paths.  don't let angry and frustrastion be your motives... if you seek knowledge, let it be curiosity.

i have had fun on this board guys...but i will not be returning.  if anyone has anything else to share or questions i will do my best to help you.  my email is .  but as for now, i have some soul searching to do.  you guys will be in my prayers. 

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


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sapphen wrote: you guys

sapphen wrote:

you guys will be in my prayers.

I'd rather you did something useful, like read a book on science. You need it.


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sapphen wrote: we do not

sapphen wrote:

we do not lack intelligence anymore than anyone else but we are sheep and He is the Sheppard. and like a good Sheppard he lets us graise and stray away. when a wolf comes to claim our hide, it's like His eyes never left us.. He is waiting with a staff to slay the beast. like sheep i feel safe asleep under his feet.

But if the shepherd is the one responsible for letting the wolves into the field...

 

Take care, sapphen.

-Triften


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Ah shit. I didn't mean to

Ah shit. I didn't mean to chase you away.
Well, best of luck I suppose. And I'm glad we were able to help you with something, even if it wasn't something we were trying to do.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.