Question for the "Faithfull" Or thiest's or whoever believes in the bible

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Question for the "Faithfull" Or thiest's or whoever believes in the bible

 

Hopefully this is the right place for this post.  

 

This question is for those here who believe the bible is "Gods Word"

 

Question = Why Have you not Cut out your eye's and cut off your hands ? If it truly is the word of god why have you failed to fullfill your lords wishes ?

 

  "Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30"

Full Bible Quotes.

Mathew 5

"5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." 

 

Source of my question

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html 

 

 


stuntgibbon
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wavefreak wrote:   Uh ...

wavefreak wrote:
 

Uh ... think here. Even if the ENTIRE bible is god's word, NOBODY believes that NONE of it is metaphor. 

 

This guy seems to: http://www.familyradio.com/english/connect/bio/haroldcamping_bio.html

 


wavefreak
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stuntgibbon wrote:   This

GAH! I should have known. I wonder if his hands and eyes are intact. 


stuntgibbon
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I'm not saying the guy isn't

I'm not saying the guy isn't clinically nuts.


Presuppositionalist
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Quote: Theists:  By what

Quote:
Theists:  By what measure do you decide which parts of the bible are meant to be taken literally and which are to be interpretted as metaphor?

I don't think it's fair to expect us to produce ONE RULE that you can apply to every single verse, or even a set list of rules. The Bible is an artifact from a foreign culture, which has been translated into English from an ancient (idiomatic) language. You really have to take a lot into account to say "Q is the proper way to  interpret this verse," so you shouldn't be surprised to occasionally meet objections.

To be sure that you're interpreting a verse well enough that no objection can be made, you would have to take *everything we know* about the relevant section of the Bible into account. It's sort of like the scientific method: a theory must incorporate all the data, and make good on its predictions.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:I don't think it's

Quote:
I don't think it's fair to expect us to produce ONE RULE that you can apply to every single verse, or even a set list of rules. The Bible is an artifact from a foreign culture, which has been translated into English from an ancient (idiomatic) language. You really have to take a lot into account to say "Q is the proper way to  interpret this verse," so you shouldn't be surprised to occasionally meet objections.

Boiling this down:

'The Bible is too old and too complex for us feeble humans to properly understand!"

Wow! If that's the case, how the fuck can you possibly thrust your trust blindly into it?

Quote:
There are forms of theism that to not presume a supernatural entity.

You're right, wavefreak. There's also your hand-tailored brand, which labels anything from a man driving a semi truck at eighty miles an hour towards another man chained to a tree at two seconds away from impact, to a muslim on a bus full of passengers who has depressed the detonator switch on the explosives he's wearing and is now just waiting the few fractions of a second for the electrical charge to do it's thing, as 'God'.

Or the patheist argument, which labels my absolutely delicious hamburger as 'God'.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:As much as cherry

Quote:
As much as cherry picking is maligned, what's a person to do to avoid it short of mind-reading anyway? Reading is cherry picking by nature

I don't think so.

A person cannot 'cherry pick' through an instruction manual and successfully learn how to do whatever it is they were trying to instruct themselves on, and the bible is largely touted as the instruction manual (in fact, the term 'Bible' is now regularly used to refer to terrific instruction manuals).

If I want to learn how to power-up my Viper in Falcon 4.0, I can't cherry pick whatever I do want to do or don't want to do, or arbitrarily decide that some parts of the sequence are metaphors for my existence from the teaching material. If I don't do exactly what the material says, word for word, my jet never leaves the fucking ground.

The same is true for all other forms of instruction manuals.

Why this massive exception for 'the' instruction manual?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Eloise
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Kevin R Brown wrote:Quote:As

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
As much as cherry picking is maligned, what's a person to do to avoid it short of mind-reading anyway? Reading is cherry picking by nature

I don't think so.

A person cannot 'cherry pick' through an instruction manual and successfully learn how to do whatever it is they were trying to instruct themselves on, and the bible is largely touted as the instruction manual (in fact, the term 'Bible' is now regularly used to refer to terrific instruction manuals).

If I want to learn how to power-up my Viper in Falcon 4.0, I can't cherry pick whatever I do want to do or don't want to do, or arbitrarily decide that some parts of the sequence are metaphors for my existence from the teaching material. If I don't do exactly what the material says, word for word, my jet never leaves the fucking ground.

The same is true for all other forms of instruction manuals.

Why this massive exception for 'the' instruction manual?

 

First, no exception applies because you've conflated my view with a view that I not only don't hold, but one that I outright object and despise. the 'instruction manual' thing is bullshit. I don't tout it and never will. The bible is nothing like an instruction manual.

Second, cherry picking through an actual instruction manual does nothing to diminish the value of the information inside. Instruction manuals are written with the inclusion of an index of items which are known by the writer to be of necessary interest to the user. Experience and prior learning knowledge would get people through the most of operating a Vehicle. If one needed any particular instruction on some aspect of the vehicle, locating it, alone, in the manual and ignoring the rest is a given.

Likewise if one read the manual from cover to cover, skimming and ignoring parts which provide no new or interesting information are also a given. Actually, it is this that was my original point. It's quite normal in reading to pay little or no attention to repeated or uninteresting aspects. The nature of the human mind is focussed and discriminating. Everybody cherry picks everything, it's part and parcel of how we operate.  Consider the room you're in now, how much of it are you actually aware of, how much of the context is consciously reaching your senses? how much data are you taking in at once? If you're being totally honest you won't say all. Humans just don't take in all sensory detail at once in any conscious way, we cherry pick every thing.

Lastly, one can perceive metaphors for their own existence in anything, even instruction manuals. One can even interpret such a metaphor in a way that is useful to them in operating your jet. This is not impossible, it's not even improbable. What you're describing as cherry picking, in my opinion, far more resembles the act of uselessly conflating allegorical reading and literal reading. Which is another problem altogether, it is not 'cherry picking'.

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Kevin R Brown
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Quote:First, no exception

Quote:
First, no exception applies because you've conflated my view with a view that I not only don't hold, but one that I outright object and despise. the 'instruction manual' thing is bullshit. I don't tout it and never will. The bible is nothing like an instruction manual.

I agree that it's bullshit. However, the Bible is regularly seen among Christians as 'the teachings of Christ', and otherwise reflect back on it to guide their decisions and personal values. It's their instruction manual for life.

What you and I feel about it is irrelevent - we're not the ones using the material.

Quote:
Second, cherry picking through an actual instruction manual does nothing to diminish the value of the information inside.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

For starters, any information in a book is completely without worth if it is never read or understood - and that's pretty diminishing. Second, a lot information in a book often relies on the reader to have completed reading and undestanding other parts of the same book in order to have value. To use my previous example, if I decide that I'm uninterested in starting my jet and more interested in shooting my missiles, so skip right to that chapter, the information I read will have no worth at all because it doesn't matter whether or not I know how to fire-off an AIM-9 when I can't even power-up my bird. To use an example I can illustrate better:

Excerpt from Improvised Weapons (pg. 162, Mutants & Masterminds Second Edition)

Superheroes and villains often use the most unlikely objects as weapons. Use the following guidelines for improvised weapons:

 - Weight: the object should be no more than a light load for the wielder to use it as a weapon

 - Damage Bonus: The damage bonus of an improvised weapon is equal to the wielder's strength bonus. If the weapon's Toughness exceeds your Strength, you get a damage bonus equal to the difference, up to +2 (like a club).

So, having cherry picked this for you, because I happen to like improvised weapons in my superhero games: how useful is this information to you, standing on it's own (assuming you were interesting in Mutants and Masterminds at all)? Does if fulfill it's teaching purpose of letting you have a lamp-post fight between superheroes without the reading understanding much more information?

Quote:
Instruction manuals are written with the inclusion of an index of items which are known by the writer to be of necessary interest to the user.

The index is used so a reader can easily find things in a book that they're already familiar with, in my experience and opinion. And dare I say that my hobby of choice lends me a bit of expertise in this area.

Quote:
Experience and prior learning knowledge would get people through the most of operating a Vehicle. If one needed any particular instruction on some aspect of the vehicle, locating it, alone, in the manual and ignoring the rest is a given.

...And what 'prior learning material' or experience to you mean? Now you've introduced whole new elements to the discussion. Having someone else teach you the stuff that you skipped in the manual is effectively the same thing as reading the material yourself (just lazier). And simply referring to the book in a piecemeal fashion isn't the same thing as 'cherry picking', because you aren't treating some of the information as chaff or misunderstanding it - you're just not reading the book in order.

Quote:
Likewise if one read the manual from cover to cover, skimming and ignoring parts which provide no new or interesting information are also a given. Actually, it is this that was my original point. It's quite normal in reading to pay little or no attention to repeated or uninteresting aspects.

Quote:
...Which is relevent how? If the information contains no new or useful instruction, the information has no worth to begin with. So, sure, you can skim over it, because it may as well not even be in the book. This is not the same difference as cherry picking what instruction you'd like to learn.The nature of the human mind is focussed and discriminating. Everybody cherry picks everything, it's part and parcel of how we operate.  Consider the room you're in now, how much of it are you actually aware of, how much of the context is consciously reaching your senses? how much data are you taking in at once? If you're being totally honest you won't say all. Humans just don't take in all sensory detail at once in any conscious way, we cherry pick every thing.

Again, irrelevant. My room isn't trying to teach my anything.

So, how about this instead: A live instructional course. Who are the students more likely to gain the most from said course: the ones who decide to only pay attention to the interesting parts, or the parts that they like; or the ones who pay attention to the entire session?

Quote:
Lastly, one can perceive metaphors for their own existence in anything, even instruction manuals.

And while that's fantastic, it's not useful for gleaning knowledge from said instructions.

Quote:
One can even interpret such a metaphor in a way that is useful to them in operating your jet. This is not impossible, it's not even improbable. What you're describing as cherry picking, in my opinion, far more resembles the act of uselessly conflating allegorical reading and literal reading. Which is another problem altogether, it is not 'cherry picking'.

I'm describing cherry picking almost precisely how Christians continuously do it, and with such dishonest intentions, for their Bible. One thing is literal, another thing is metaphorical, all without consistency or reason. Some quotes are shoved down our throats, others go entirely ignored because of their ludicrous content. What other body of knowledge is permitted such flexibility? Physics? Chemistry? Mathematics? Engineering? By all means, I challenge you to name even one rational field of study where one can be so arbitrary about what they regard as correct or incorrect.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Greetings!  Many excellent points have already been made for me so I thought I'd add my own perspective of things.  I don't have much new to add though since most everything has been covered. 

Kevin R Brown wrote:
The Bible is too old and too complex for us feeble humans to properly understand!"

Wow! If that's the case, how the fuck can you possibly thrust your trust blindly into it?

 

A very good point that I agree with.  I suppose most people would consider me a New-Ager though I don't consider myself that.  That said, I appreciate all the holy scripture I've read so far.  However, I believe that most any holy scripture can have enlightening and then in turn contradictory verses.

It's interesting that many Muslims will say that if there is contradiction in the Koran, the latter takes precedence.

At the same time I know it's foolish in this regard to say to a person "pick out the good and bad parts of your HOLY BOOK" because many don't have the right mind to do so.

Kinda makes you want to throw the whole thing out the window!!!  This is a big reason why I can't condemn atheism or Rational Responders.  

I told you I don't have much to add, but what about this:  Discerning true from false, good from bad, right from wrong, is a part of intellectual growth.  Who's to say how much our holy scripture has helped or hurt us on this earth?  One day (far, far away) the faithful as a whole may just boon into the ultimate thinkers for all we know.  Thoughts?  And excuse me if I missed something already said.

It is said the great ones catch teardrops in their hands.