This one is for the Christians...

Master Jedi Dan
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This one is for the Christians...

Ok Christians, here's your chance to shine. Do you tell people about God/Jesus/salvation every day, every chance you get? If not, then why not? (Note: this is kind of an experiment, so there will be a few more questions)

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Hi.  I'm new.  I'm a

Hi.  I'm new.  I'm a Christian.  And, I like experiments.

By way of an answer: No, I don't tell people all day/every day the good news about Jesus Christ.  However, I do believe that, by virtue of their being made in the image of God, all human beings are always constantly imperfectly revealing some of God's glory (atheists included).  We have no choice in that.  What makes me a Christian is that I join with all God's people on earth in seeking to receive, nuture, and communicate that image as an image.  

In conclusion, Yes (in an ultimate sense) and no (in an "I need to eat, sleep, and dance" sense).


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Welcome to the forums,

Welcome to the forums, extant1!

We'd like to get to know you a little better. When you get a minute, we'd love it if you'd hop over to the General Conversation, Introductions and Humor forum and introduce yourself.

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Quote: Do you tell people

Quote:
Do you tell people about God/Jesus/salvation every day, every chance you get? If not, then why not?

 

No.  I do not.

#1, because I simply do not have time for such an endeavour.

#2, because I do not always care enough to bother.

 

And, by all means, do continue.......

 

 

 


Master Jedi Dan
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Quote:

Quote:

No. I do not.

#1, because I simply do not have time for such an endeavour.

Not the best excuse, but a plausible one.

Quote:

#2, because I do not always care enough to bother.

 

And, by all means, do continue.......

So, you want these people to go to hell. (And we all thought that atheists didn't have morals!)

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


razorphreak
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I'm not exactly sure what

I'm not exactly sure what your experiment is meant to accomplish other than to trap a Christian according to your own distorted interpretation of what the biblical word states.

Every chance you get?  What does that mean?  If I'm on a date should I make my first question, "Do you believe in God?"  Am I supposed to force myself upon someone else?  Is that what you mean?

My faith is the subject of conversation when the conversation is such.  I do not change the subject to such just for the sake of conversation.

Now to kinda sorta answer your second question of why, first I think it's important to understand one very simple thing - no human can save another's soul.  I kinda felt this is the point of your "experiment" (correct me if I'm wrong please) so as to attack the side of the individuals who claim to save others, right?  As I believe it, it is God's will if a person will come to believe and understand God and God's word.  If through my words or actions or something else, I am not in charge of that "conversion".  That make any sense?  If I am forcing myself upon someone else in talking about God then I am doing it for my own purpose which is why I think your point of view on "talking about God" flawed... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: I'm not

razorphreak wrote:

I'm not exactly sure what your experiment is meant to accomplish other than to trap a Christian according to your own distorted interpretation of what the biblical word states.

Every chance you get? What does that mean? If I'm on a date should I make my first question, "Do you believe in God?" Am I supposed to force myself upon someone else? Is that what you mean?

My faith is the subject of conversation when the conversation is such. I do not change the subject to such just for the sake of conversation.

Now to kinda sorta answer your second question of why, first I think it's important to understand one very simple thing - no human can save another's soul. I kinda felt this is the point of your "experiment" (correct me if I'm wrong please) so as to attack the side of the individuals who claim to save others, right? As I believe it, it is God's will if a person will come to believe and understand God and God's word. If through my words or actions or something else, I am not in charge of that "conversion". That make any sense? If I am forcing myself upon someone else in talking about God then I am doing it for my own purpose which is why I think your point of view on "talking about God" flawed...

I think the question is more "Do you look for opportunities to witness?" than "Do you try to steer any conversation to Witnessing?" 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote: I think the

jcgadfly wrote:
I think the question is more "Do you look for opportunities to witness?" than "Do you try to steer any conversation to Witnessing?"

I guess it depends on the conversation.  If we are talking about evolution and I'm a beliver in God (i.e. creation), gonna get kinda hard to not start talking about my faith or beliefs.  If we are talking about if you like vodka and Kahlua (a black russian) vs. a gin and tonic, why would I "witness" then?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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The main point of this is

The main point of this is that Christians rather disprove Christianity because they don't witness to others whenever they can.  Here is a summary:

So we start out with this question:

"Are you a Christian?"

Next: (If the above answer is yes)

"Do you tell people about God/Jesus/salvation (any of the three will work) every chance you get?"(As in every day, every time you go somewhere where people aren't saved, which is a lot)
Next: (If the above answer is no)

"Why not?"

This comes down to two answers

1. If they say they don't want to tell others, then say, well, then you must want people to go to hell, because you're not telling them about god's plan of salvation.

2. If they are "afraid", ask them how they can be afraid if they really believe in god. If they do believe in god, they shouldn't be afraid, because the god of the bible is apparently omnipotent, meaning that he himself can control the thoughts, intentions, actions, and words of everyone.

Now, if they are still afraid, they must not believe in a god, because if they believed in a god they would have no problem telling others about him, knowing that their god is controlling the thoughts, intents, and actions of the person they are witnessing to.
They have one more ticket with being afraid. They might believe that the god of the bible won't protect them. The bible says that god will be with you always, but even if he isn't, isn't heaven infinitely betterthan earth? And what better way to go out than to be witnessing to someone? Doesn't the bible say that it's good when you are persecuted?

Either way, the atheists win. The person either 1. Wants people to go to hell (And you thought atheists didn't have morals!), or 2. Doesn't really believe in god.

So to sum it up, Christians disprove Christianity by not witnessing.  They don't really believe in god, they just follow their happy little religion.  They have no way out. 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: 1.

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

1. If they say they don't want to tell others, then say, well, then you must want people to go to hell, because you're not telling them about god's plan of salvation.

I don't believe that this follows logically.


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Quote: I don't believe

Quote:

I don't believe that this follows logically.

They why else would you not want to tell others? 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: "Do

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

"Do you tell people about God/Jesus/salvation (any of the three will work) every chance you get?"(As in every day, every time you go somewhere where people aren't saved, which is a lot)
Next: (If the above answer is no)

What if the second answer is yes? I mean, what would you say?


razorphreak
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Master Jedi Dan wrote: This

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
This comes down to two answers

1. If they say they don't want to tell others, then say, well, then you must want people to go to hell, because you're not telling them about god's plan of salvation.

2. If they are "afraid", ask them how they can be afraid if they really believe in god. If they do believe in god, they shouldn't be afraid, because the god of the bible is apparently omnipotent, meaning that he himself can control the thoughts, intentions, actions, and words of everyone.

According to who?

See what I have a problem with here is you are not basing this on any facts but your own judgments against Christians.

Why else would you say:

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Either way, the atheists win. The person either 1. Wants people to go to hell (And you thought atheists didn't have morals!), or 2. Doesn't really believe in god.

You start that with "atheists win" meaning you have no regard for conversation, situation, or individual belief.  What I don't understand is why you began this "experiment" as trying seemingly wanting to learn about how Christians actually are when in reality by your comments you simply want to trap them to make them sound foolish.  Why are you doing this?  Does this mean that you care nothing about learning what others believe?

OK to your points... 

1.  "you must want people to go to hell" - where does that come from?  You think all Christians are "bible thumpers" or "Jesus freaks" or whatever label you want to put and that automatically means that even I, since I'm Christian, want people to go to hell because I don't talk to them just out of the blue and start a conversation with a complete stranger with "Are you a Christian?"  You really seem to have little comprehension as to what being a Christian is when it comes to meeting new people, or as I guess you wanted to label it, "witnessing."  If I'm at a bar, having a drink with a friend or even alone, how much actual attention would I get from anyone if I began a conversation involving faith and religion?  Would I be looked at as nuts?  Or more so as a "buzz kill?"  If I do that, wouldn't that be like repulsing people away from what would be my desire, for them to learn of Jesus?

2.  You misstate fear.  I cannot talk about every Christian in the world since I have only met a small percentage of them but I myself am not afraid to talk about my faith or what I know to anyone IF THE CONVERSATION IS ABOUT THIS.  This forum is a perfect example of how I am willing to share what I know to anyone who may ask it.  "Witnessing" is simply sharing what someone believes to another.  You could even say what I've done on this forum is "witnessing" although I don't look at it that way.  If you want me to give you an even more faith based answer to this point, well I can say with no doubt that when the conversation arises that my faith or what being a Christian is going to be discussed, it is the will of God at that moment and it is now my responsibility to be ready for this conversation.  

Am I one to go seeking to convert anyone?  No.  The reason simply is because I know that I cannot do this, that is I cannot convince someone of God, only God can do that.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

I don't believe that this follows logically.

They why else would you not want to tell others?

There might not be a need to tell them. A Christian may have faith that even if they don't tell others about salvation and all that, God will find another way to ensure that person's salvation. Such a task shouldn't be too hard for God, no? In particular, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that a person can be saved even after they die, so there's no real reason to worry about saving people in this life if they can be forgiven in the afterlife. Or, the Christian might (correctly) assume that pretty much everyone already knows about the whole salvation bit. I don't think I've ever met anyone who hasn't heard the whole spiel before. Ever. So there are few reasons. I'm sure there are more too, if you put more than a few seconds of thought into it.


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No because Jesus teaches we

No because Jesus teaches we arent supposed to (Matthew 7:6). We are supposed to let our lives shine with love and compassion for others so that people will be drawn to ask. Of course that requires a Christian to actually be implementing Jesus into their life, not just going to church. This way they will have light that shines....admitedly not many "Christians" actually have light that shines out. Probably the reason why so many feel the need to just use cliche phrases and try to badger people into accepting information....ultimatly growing distaste for Christianity into many people such as probably yourself.


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Quote: No because Jesus

Quote:

No because Jesus teaches we arent supposed to.

Really...then what does this mean? 

Mat 28:18-20  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

The point of this is that most christians dont seem to care if the person next to them is going to heaven or hell.  And Im wondering, do they really believe it, or is it just another hopeless religion?  It seems that god for most people is very small and cant do much.  To sum it up, Christianity seems fake even to the "beleivers" seeing as how they dont act upon the knowledge of an omnipotent god.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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I already posted my

I already posted my scripture support.

 

He taught to draw people to us through love, not to beat people down and try to force them to listen. That is the process of how to go out and share with non believers like you were pointing out in your scripture referance. Its supposed to be done through  love and compassion for non blievers so that they will be drawn to ask. This is why he teaches to love your neighbor, feed the hungry, ect. Granted much of modern Christianity doesnt follow what Jesus taught but that is a seperate discussion  hahaha.


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the reason i don't agree

the reason i don't agree with the op is that i don't know that christianity necessarily obliges one to prevent other people from going to hell. even by my own moral standards if i knew that something bad would happen to someone i would try to prevent it, but i would not feel morally obligated to prevent it unless i caused the situation or i was somehow contractually obligated (like a police officer for example).

if they don't intervene it doesn't mean that they want people to go to hell. it could mean that they just don't care or perhaps they feel overwhelmed by the fact that there are so many people that disagree with them on religious matters and will probably never convert no matter what they say.

anyone in that situation would have to see the futility of it. not to mention the fact that they have to save people in a manner that's grossly inefficient. i mean even someone who considers themselves to be a good chistian has to realize that it should be easier to just ask their god not to burn everybody up over something so stupid and petty than it would be to circumnavigate the globe proselytizing to billions of people.

of course on the other hand i guess it's kind of morally repugnant to worship something when you literally believe that thing will torture people for having the wrong superstition but that's a separate issue.

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Xposure wrote: I already

Xposure wrote:

I already posted my scripture support.

 

He taught to draw people to us through love, not to beat people down and try to force them to listen. That is the process of how to go out and share with non believers like you were pointing out in your scripture referance. Its supposed to be done through love and compassion for non blievers so that they will be drawn to ask. This is why he teaches to love your neighbor, feed the hungry, ect. Granted much of modern Christianity doesnt follow what Jesus taught but that is a seperate discussion hahaha.

All I'm saying is that to see people truly believing in an omnipotent god would be a very powerful testimony to Christianity, even any religion.  This is one of the many reasons I don't believe, I mean, Christianity really does seem like just another religion whose followers are half-passionate at best.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Xposure wrote:

I already posted my scripture support.

He taught to draw people to us through love, not to beat people down and try to force them to listen. That is the process of how to go out and share with non believers like you were pointing out in your scripture referance. Its supposed to be done through love and compassion for non blievers so that they will be drawn to ask. This is why he teaches to love your neighbor, feed the hungry, ect. Granted much of modern Christianity doesnt follow what Jesus taught but that is a seperate discussion hahaha.

All I'm saying is that to see people truly believing in an omnipotent god would be a very powerful testimony to Christianity, even any religion.  This is one of the many reasons I don't believe, I mean, Christianity really does seem like just another religion whose followers are half-passionate at best.

I understand exactly what your saying. As a matter of fact, I have a hard time going to churches because they just dont look like Jesus and they rarely teach people how to live for Jesus. Jesus was the highest example of passion for God and pleasing Him that there ever has been. I'm working on writing a book for Christians about the importance of studying and implementing Jesus into their life. Most dont, and that is why they are void of passion. Christians just look like everyone else, you cant see any difference in most of them and so its like...whats the point? Not only do they look the same and have the same struggles as everyone else, they come off as very closed minded and very defensive when someone doesnt agree with them which just further turns people off. Most of that is because they dont know the Bible. I can spend 30 minutes on this forum and tell that many of the athiests here know the Bible better than many "Christians". Honestly that is just sad, personally I dont see how someone can feel like they are a Christian when they dont even read the Bible. But the ultimate problem is that many many churches have redused becoming a Christian into a ritualistic act of a prayer, dunk in the water, and bam now your saved. And as such, after that point people dont feel the importance of doing anything else because they are "saved". Its a horrible injustice that didnt really become popular until the early/mid 1900's.

 Anyway, I dont blame you for not believing based on what Christians look like. All I can say is that most people who claim to be Christian really arent. Most Christians dont even know what it means to say Jesus is Lord. The real view of what a Christian should look like is Jesus, modern churches just do a poor job of teaching that. Im trying to set up a forum so people can just learn and study Jesus on their own and have online support to help them implement the changes into their life. Hopefully that will help some Christians figure out what real Christianity is about so they can find that passion that you are looking for in them.

I can break it down real easy, the entire Bible is geared towards showing people how to live for God and Jesus really summed up that message and provided a example. If you ever want to know what real Christianity is about just study Jesus and implement his teachings because we are all just supposed to be his student....churches just dont really teach that because it makes it had to grow a big church unless you are giving a message that justifies everyone instead of telling them they have to change.

Sorry for the lenght....I know you didnt ask for all this information but once I get going it just kinda pours out like that. 

Stephen


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: And

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

And Im wondering, do they really believe it, or is it just another hopeless religion?

I don't feel that any religion is entirely hopeless. 

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
It seems that god for most people is very small and cant do much.

Why should God be large? Too much of something can often be bad. Imagine, for example, if the Universe were chock-full of matter. Not very pleasant, I think. God (and religion as a whole) work better when they are the salt and pepper, rather than the meat and potaotes of one's life.

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
To sum it up, Christianity seems fake even to the "beleivers" seeing as how they dont act upon the knowledge of an omnipotent god.

Once again, you're displaying a rather limited view of the Christian theology.

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Christianity really does seem like just another religion whose followers are half-passionate at best.

Isn't that preferable? 


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Stephen, thanks for the

Stephen, thanks for the summary, I do appreciate it and I pretty much agree with you on all that you said. 

 

Quote:

Why should God be large? Too much of something can often be bad. Imagine, for example, if the Universe were chock-full of matter. Not very pleasant, I think. God (and religion as a whole) work better when they are the salt and pepper, rather than the meat and potaotes of one's life.

But imagine the power of an omnipotent god in your life.  I mean, what better way to live life than to get strength from the ultimate source?  It seems that the god of the bible is like a huge river, and all people want is for him to trickle his power to them.  I mean, come on, you've got this huge source of power ready to be given to you and you barely want any of it!  What kind of faith is that?

Quote:

Isn't that preferable?

No, because I'm an atheist that believes atheism because I believe it's true, not because I hate the concept of a deity or I despise religion.  It would make my life a lot easier if I was a Christian, but I'm not going to live my life for something I don't truly believe. 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Really...then what does this mean?

Mat 28:18-20

The misconception of Matthew 28 is that it is the call to the evangelical movement but it is not.  Matthew 28 is in relation to those who have heard, believed, and are ready to move foward in that faith. Teaching those who believed, as the more common translation of verse 19 states "and make disciples of all the nations", is not about forcing the hand of God, i.e. forcing your beliefs upon someone else.

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
The point of this is that most christians dont seem to care if the person next to them is going to heaven or hell.

That's very presumptious of you...how do you know that exactly? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Gauche wrote: the reason i

Gauche wrote:
the reason i don't agree with the op is that i don't know that christianity necessarily obliges one to prevent other people from going to hell. even by my own moral standards if i knew that something bad would happen to someone i would try to prevent it, but i would not feel morally obligated to prevent it unless i caused the situation or i was somehow contractually obligated (like a police officer for example).

That's probably one of the best ways I've seen it put so far.  But let me ask you, if you have someone approach you, like a child, and they begin asking you if it's right to fight someone else because they stole from him/her?  Would you teach them violence for violence or would you try to help them understand why both those ideas would be wrong?

According to the bible, not one person on this planet can condemn or save anyone's soul.  It is not the decision of any person as to where someone may go when this life is over.

Gauche wrote:
if they don't intervene it doesn't mean that they want people to go to hell. it could mean that they just don't care or perhaps they feel overwhelmed by the fact that there are so many people that disagree with them on religious matters and will probably never convert no matter what they say.

It depends.  If it is not God's will for you to make a difference to someone else, why would it be up to you to try?  That new show on TV, journeyman, reminds of this.  If you could go back and save someone, would you?  Should you? In the first episode, he saves a man from committing suicide yet because of that seemingly good action, he would later murder his later wife and child.  As it is my belief, if God wants you to intervene, you'll know it and you'll know what to say to make the difference.  As I said, you cannot force the will of God.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: But

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

But imagine the power of an omnipotent god in your life. I mean, what better way to live life than to get strength from the ultimate source? It seems that the god of the bible is like a huge river, and all people want is for him to trickle his power to them. I mean, come on, you've got this huge source of power ready to be given to you and you barely want any of it! What kind of faith is that? 

The thing is, I'm not certain that it is the Christian god's intent to be used as a power source to those who seek power. He describes himself as a shepherd who gives care, rather than a river that is to be made into distributaries.

Quote:
No, because I'm an atheist that believes atheism because I believe it's true, not because I hate the concept of a deity or I despise religion. It would make my life a lot easier if I was a Christian, but I'm not going to live my life for something I don't truly believe.

I meant isn't it preferable to you, as an atheist, that people aren't constantly coming up to you and trying to tell you about whatever salvation they claim to offer? You seem to be disappointed in the fact that most Christians seem to be "half-hearted," but I think you would find it more enjoyable than your suggested alternative.


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Quote: The thing is, I'm

Quote:

The thing is, I'm not certain that it is the Christian god's intent to be used as a power source to those who seek power. He describes himself as a shepherd who gives care, rather than a river that is to be made into distributaries.

I don't think it's necessarily to seek "power", but rather the strength to live every day fully for god. 

Quote:

I meant isn't it preferable to you, as an atheist, that people aren't constantly coming up to you and trying to tell you about whatever salvation they claim to offer? You seem to be disappointed in the fact that most Christians seem to be "half-hearted," but I think you would find it more enjoyable than your suggested alternative.

Perhaps it would be easier to show them that they are following a religion of falsehood if they tried that, but other than that I concede this point to you. 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.