Help Me Out Fellow Atheists!

ForbiddenAlly
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Help Me Out Fellow Atheists!

So I am later today going to be debating with a strong Christian friend of mine about his beliefs and he is going to try to prove to me that God does exist.  We started last night but it was late when we started and he was using a book to help him out (it was called something along the lines of I Don't Have ENough Faight to be an Atheist or something of the like) while I was sitting there from everything I know from memory.  He stumbles upon his words a lot, but that's fine.

 

But one of the arguments he might have me on (since I am not well educated in this field yet) is the one of the Big Bang.  I use the thought of well, maybe the Universe is here for enternity and that it is matter and it cannot be created nor destroyed (forgot which law that is).  But then he uses the second law of therodynamics and says that everything loses energy and so there has to be a beginning and end to the universe if it is running out of energy.

 

We were talking about the Flood as well and he was saying that most of the water was underground and there was very little above ground.  Because of this, there was hardly any rain and the ground broke and flooded the earth or some shit....I don't know, it was kind of stupid but he was also saying there is evidence that there was flooding around the Earth.  

 

I just need some help on arguments, questions that he wont be able to pick apart, and anything that might help.  


Roisin Dubh
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It sounds like your friend

It sounds like your friend is a bible literalist. If so, then I wouldn't waste my time debating him. His arguments will be completely ridiculous, and nothing you say will sway him one bit.

 

ForbiddenAlly wrote:

We were talking about the Flood as well and he was saying that most of the water was underground and there was very little above ground.

All this water was underground? Where, exactly, was it being stored before this big flood? Water seeks its own level, so for that much water to be stored underground, it would have had to have been in a water-tight chamber. Ask him to show you one shred of evidence for this crap.

Quote:
Because of this, there was hardly any rain and the ground broke and flooded the earth or some shit....I don't know, it was kind of stupid but he was also saying there is evidence that there was flooding around the Earth.

Evidence that there has been floods all over the world? Sure. Evidence that there was a giant flood across the entire planet at the same time? Nonsense. Again, ask him to provide evidence of this horseshit claim.

Prepare to come away from your debate very frustrated, my friend. I have a hunch that you'll be pulling your hair out after talking with this ignoramus.

 

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


Cpt_pineapple
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ForbiddenAlly

ForbiddenAlly wrote:

 

 But one of the arguments he might have me on (since I am not well educated in this field yet) is the one of the Big Bang. I use the thought of well, maybe the Universe is here for enternity and that it is matter and it cannot be created nor destroyed (forgot which law that is). But then he uses the second law of therodynamics and says that everything loses energy and so there has to be a beginning and end to the universe if it is running out of energy.

 

 

Yep, the Big Bang happend 13.7 billion years ago. Our universe did have a begining. BTW it's the first law.

I'm actually surpirsed since usually they deny the Big Bang. 


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I wish I could help you out

I wish I could help you out with the Big Bang but I'm not very well versed in that information.  However, just because you don't it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Your lack of knowledge doesn't prove god's existence either.  Just be honest if you don't know something. 

If you want information about the Flood, or anything for that matter, the internet is a useful tool.  I know many people think that's a cop out.  I like Google Scholar the best.  The information you get there tends to be a bit more accredited.  

That being said, just remember that you have to know what you're debating about, and if you don't have the information, admitting that is fine.  After all, you guys are friends.  Whatever you do, do not just spit out information you have read without fully understanding.  If you can't put it into your own words, then chances are you don't understand.  Just my two cents.  

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Remember that it is he that

Remember that it is he that claims he can prove the existens of god. As there is no way to prove nonexistens the burdon of evidens lay on your oponents shoulders. You have never claimed that you, as a individual, can explain every phenomenon around us with scientific means. However that does not mean that the bible is a better sourse of knowlige than science. He can surely find details and things that you and/or sciense cant explain -- yet. On the other hand there is not much the bible manages to explain of the world around us at all without refering to magical entities. Keep in mind - If it takes a creator to explain the existens of the universe it must take a super creator to explain the existens of the creator and a superduper creator to explain the existens of the super creator and so on.

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ForbiddenAlly wrote:

ForbiddenAlly wrote:

But one of the arguments he might have me on (since I am not well educated in this field yet) is the one of the Big Bang. I use the thought of well, maybe the Universe is here for enternity and that it is matter and it cannot be created nor destroyed (forgot which law that is). But then he uses the second law of therodynamics and says that everything loses energy and so there has to be a beginning and end to the universe if it is running out of energy.

The problem your friend has is that the total energy in the universe is zero since the positive energy is balanced out by the negative and gravitational energy.

But you could turn it around and ask what his god is made of. If he says "nothing" then the debate is over because he admitted his god is nothing therefore doesn't exist. But if he says that he doesn't know then ask why wouldn't the 2nd law of thermodynamics apply to his god? If he claims that the laws of physics doesn't apply to his god ask for a demonstration why this is the case. From there on he has to be on the defensive as he works to create an invisible, undetectable god, which has the same qualities as something that doesn't exist.

It's only a debate is the theist actually presents something tangible for god's existence. If I say I don't know how lightning happens and his response is "goddidit" then that doesn't explain anything. No theist has ever one a debate on the existence of god since none have ever provided evidence for their god, just gaps in the knowledge possessed by an Atheist.

http://www.astrosociety.org/pubs/mercury/31_02/nothing.html


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FrobiddenAlly, It sounds to

FrobiddenAlly,

It sounds to me like he is going to take the position that the universe exists and had a begining and that something outside the universe had to create it. Creation exists, therefore a creator exists. Alledgedly, the universe and everything in it requires an explanation or a "cause", which is, of course, god(s). The most popular version of this argument is the 'first cause' argument. There is a cause (god) and an effect (the universe).  This is the Cosmological Argument.

The weakness of this argument is that there needs to be an explanation. Does the universe need a first cause? If it does, then god needs a first cause too. The theist will usuall call for a special pleading at this point and say god is outside of nature and therefore needs no cause. Is there any proff that god is outside of nature? Is there any proof that god needs no cause? No, it's simply built into his argument by his definations of god and nature.

Another concern is the lack of any knowledge of the mechanism or relationship between the cause (god) and the effect(universe). It would be pertinant to next ask "How does god(s) cause the universe to exist?" Extradinory claims require extraordinary evidence.

Next, if we acecpt that a goddidit, is this any proof that the Christian god did it? Could it be the Hindu, Greek or Egyptian god? 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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ForbiddenAlly wrote: So I

ForbiddenAlly wrote:

So I am later today going to be debating with a strong Christian friend of mine about his beliefs and he is going to try to prove to me that God does exist. We started last night but it was late when we started and he was using a book to help him out (it was called something along the lines of I Don't Have ENough Faight to be an Atheist or something of the like)

If he's impressed by that book, then he's violently ignorant of the topics he's trying to debate. He requires remedial education, not debate.

You simply cannot debate a person who would be incapable of recognizing when he's been refuted.

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Brainstorm
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help needed

I'm Looking for 'molecular fossils.

can anyone helpme? 


thormos
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Brainstorm wrote:

Brainstorm wrote:

I'm Looking for 'molecular fossils.

can anyone helpme?

Not exacly fossils but close:

http://www.geol.ku.dk/pershps/robertfrei/WEB/Rosing%20and%20Frei%20-%20EPSL-2004-1.pdf

"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "


ForbiddenAlly
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There's also another

There's also another subject that he was gettong onto.  The "Absolute Truth".  He was saying that if there was an absolute truth then the only answer would be God, but if one were to say that there wasn't absolute truth, then would that be stating a truth or not?  It got really confusing but I kept at it and got him to shut up about it because he didn't have much else to say. 

 


thormos
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ForbiddenAlly

ForbiddenAlly wrote:

There's also another subject that he was gettong onto. The "Absolute Truth". He was saying that if there was an absolute truth then the only answer would be God, but if one were to say that there wasn't absolute truth, then would that be stating a truth or not? It got really confusing but I kept at it and got him to shut up about it because he didn't have much else to say.

 

 

What is absolute truth. is it some sort of truth that is truer than other kinds? This argument makes litle sense to me. Think I have heard it before but is this anything more than just fancy word play?

"Everyone knows that God drives a Plymouth: "And He drove Adam And Eve from the Garden of Eden in His Fury."
And that Moses liked British cars: "The roar of Moses' Triumph was heard throughout the hills."
On the other hand, Jesus humbly drove a Honda but didn't brag about it, because in his own words: "I did not speak of my own Accord." "


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Hi, ForbiddenAlly,

Hi, ForbiddenAlly, Brainstorm and Faidros and welcome to the forums.

We'd like to get to know you a little better.  When you get a minute, we'd love it if you'd hop over to the General Conversation, Introductions and Humor forum and introduce yourselves.

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