The Ultimate Sacrifice

xamination
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The Ultimate Sacrifice

I have often heard from Christians that Jesus made the "ultimate sacrifice" by letting himself die in order for him to save humanity.  These same people argue that the sacrifice of oneself is the greatest sacrifice you can make.  I disagree.  However, before I get to talking about what I think is the ultimate sacrifice, I wish to ask both atheists and theists alike:  What is the greatest thing you could give up?  What, in your opinion, is the ultimate sacrifice?

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Jesus made no sacrifice

Jesus made no sacrifice whatsoever

 a) It is highly unlikely he didnt exist,

b) Assuming that he did exist and was the son of god/FSM, he knew full well he was going of to heaven after a few days of pain with no faith required.

 

You show me 100% certain proof of heaven and you can stick me up on a cross for a slow death now

 

Sacrificing your life when you have the option of living a life without pain is the biggest sacrifice in this univerise as you only have one life


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I don't believe in

I don't believe in sacrifice.  To me, sacrificing is destroying something great so that something that is not great can continue, if that makes sense.  Meaning, I'm not going to jump into a lake to rescue a stranger if I cannot swim and risk drowning myself.  That person's life does not mean more to me than my own.  However, if that person drowning were someone I cared about, I'd probably jump right in regardless of the risk to myself.

I don't think there is anything noble about sacrifice.  It's just a waste.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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I agree. And if the story

I agree. And if the story was true, God's stupid. Why not just forgive unconditionally instead of having himself tortured? Like I said before, if a friend pissed you off would you just forgive him, or cut one of your fingers off and give it to him? If he accepted it forgive him, if he was grossed out, ran or called you nuts beat the crap out of him. And of course your friend actually knows you exist.

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Froggy618157725
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You underestimate the

You underestimate the importance of symbols.

In the event that that story is true, sure, G_d could simply grant everyone immunity. But that would be neither stylish or elegant, and rather boring.

Anyways, with His habit of never speaking directly to people, you'd just have some guy saying "Yeah... It's all cool now. Heaven for everyone." Not only would no one believe him (I overestimate the average person's resistence to believing random statements), but anyone who did believe it probably wouldn't care. Random proclamations aren't that moving.

However, throw in some multimedia action/drama with plenty of symbols and references, and you've got something far more believable and stylish.

It's like reading a short plot synopsis, or watching the movie. Assuming the movie isn't terrible, watching it really gets the point across better than the summary. 

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Froggy618157725 wrote: You

Froggy618157725 wrote:

You underestimate the importance of symbols.

In the event that that story is true, sure, G_d could simply grant everyone immunity. But that would be neither stylish or elegant, and rather boring.

Anyways, with His habit of never speaking directly to people, you'd just have some guy saying "Yeah... It's all cool now. Heaven for everyone." Not only would no one believe him (I overestimate the average person's resistence to believing random statements), but anyone who did believe it probably wouldn't care. Random proclamations aren't that moving.

However, throw in some multimedia action/drama with plenty of symbols and references, and you've got something far more believable and stylish.

It's like reading a short plot synopsis, or watching the movie. Assuming the movie isn't terrible, watching it really gets the point across better than the summary.

Wow, so jesus didn't just die for our salvation, but also for our entertainment!


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mrjonno wrote: Jesus made

mrjonno wrote:

Jesus made no sacrifice whatsoever

 a) It is highly unlikely he didnt exist,

b) Assuming that he did exist and was the son of god/FSM, he knew full well he was going of to heaven after a few days of pain with no faith required.

You show me 100% certain proof of heaven and you can stick me up on a cross for a slow death now

Agreed.  Who wouldn't trade a temporary life for an "eternal" one?  I'd become a celibate monk, radical imam, pray from dawn to dusk, allow myself to be tortured, murdered, etc.  None of that would be much of a sacrifice if I were given "eternal" life and happiness.  Who wouldn't make that trade ?

And if I were omnipotent as the son of god would clearly have to be, how does anyone know he even felt any pain during the crucifixion at all ?  If you had the power to circumvent the pain of torture and the fear of death, which he (supposedly) did, wouldn't you ?  No one would ever know, right ?

Besides being clearly derivative and repetitve of other Bronze Age myths, I don't see how the jesus story conveys any real sacrifice to a thinking person anyway.

Isn't it way past time that humans left behind the childish, primitive concepts of animal and human sacrifice ? 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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Julia Sweeney in her

Julia Sweeney in her one-woman show made the point that the passion story makes such a big deal out of the scourging and suffering that Jesus underwent for a couple of days, but that she watched her brother suffer like that from cancer every day for *years.*  People undergo suffering much worse than what Jesus went through every day.  What's so special about a couple of days of scourging?

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


Froggy618157725
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ABx wrote: Wow, so jesus

ABx wrote:
Wow, so jesus didn't just die for our salvation, but also for our entertainment!

All the worlds a stage...

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Textom wrote: Julia Sweeney

Textom wrote:
Julia Sweeney in her one-woman show made the point that the passion story makes such a big deal out of the scourging and suffering that Jesus underwent for a couple of days, but that she watched her brother suffer like that from cancer every day for *years.* People undergo suffering much worse than what Jesus went through every day. What's so special about a couple of days of scourging?

If christianity really wanted to show that jesus SUFFERED, we should still be torturing him today.  THAT would be some suffering and sacrifice - 2000 years of assholes with whips! 


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BGH wrote: Textom

BGH wrote:

Textom wrote:
Julia Sweeney in her one-woman show made the point that the passion story makes such a big deal out of the scourging and suffering that Jesus underwent for a couple of days, but that she watched her brother suffer like that from cancer every day for *years.* People undergo suffering much worse than what Jesus went through every day. What's so special about a couple of days of scourging?

If christianity really wanted to show that jesus SUFFERED, we should still be torturing him today. THAT would be some suffering and sacrifice - 2000 years of assholes with whips!

 

You don't think it tortures Jesus to see the crimes that are commited in his name? 


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Thanks everyone for the

Thanks everyone for the answers, but many have still not answered my question:  What is the greatest sacrifice one can make? 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Wow.. this thread really

Wow.. this thread really went off on an tangent. Was the original question what do you consider to be a sacrifice? Not whether or not you agree that the character's in the bible sacrificied or not..

In answer to the original question.. I do believe that there is no great sacrifice than when one person lay down his life for another.

I will contend with an earlier point that "sacrifice" is just a waste. Perhaps... with the definition that was stated for sacrifice in that post, then, by definition, it will always be a waste.

But.. I'm not sure sacrifice is so narrowly limited.

I will "sacrifice" my car so that my brother can go to school. Or.. I will "sacrifice" some Taco Bell so I can buy a birthday present for a friend.

These.. I believe.. are accurate uses of the words.

Furthermore, in terms of my life-- if I felt I was finished with whatever goal or work I set out to do at the beginning of my life.. I would hope that I would be willing to "sacrifice" my life for some kid, whether or not I knew them, so that he may give more than I ever could with the remainder of my life.

*And no, this hypothetical does not suggest that my life would mean nothing to me at that time.  


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Froggy618157725 wrote: All

Froggy618157725 wrote:

All the worlds a stage

And all the men and women merely players, ( As you like it, Froggy )


Greatest sacrifice, my computers, without hesitation

I'd like to see Jesus give up 1.7 terabyte's of disk space,( mostly filled with donkey porn) ( it's all about the Pentiums baby, Weird Al )


 


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Maybe a good working

Maybe a good working definition of sacrifice is in order. How about: an action taken for the greater good at some personal cost. The degree of sacrifice would be based on the personal cost.


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That is a fine definition,

That is a fine definition, wavefreak.  Now I've already heard one person say that sacrificing one's life is the greatest sacrifice possible.  I am going to show you that it is not in a bit, but I still want to hear from others.  Is sacrficing oneself the greatest possible sacrifice?  If not, what is?

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Quote: Maybe a good working

Quote:
Maybe a good working definition of sacrifice is in order. How about: an action taken for the greater good at some personal cost. The degree of sacrifice would be based on the personal cost.

I don't think this would be correct either.  While the first definition made all sacrifices "wasteful"-- this makes all sacrifices "praiseworthy."  "Praiseworthy" by a subjective standard perhaps.. but still.. might mess with the thread's direction.

How bout we go with definition 8 from the good old dictionary.com

Sacrifice:

8. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.


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Greatest sacrifice is easy

Greatest sacrifice is easy

 

Dying for a cause without believing in an afterlife, its no sacrifice if you think you are of to heaven


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Quote: Maybe a good working

Quote:
Maybe a good working definition of sacrifice is in order. How about: an action taken for the greater good at some personal cost. The degree of sacrifice would be based on the personal cost.

Mind this: What would you sacrifice? your index finger, or your whole hand? With either of these actions, you achieve the same effec. What's your choice?

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
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RhadTheGizmo wrote: Wow..

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Wow.. this thread really went off on an tangent. Was the original question what do you consider to be a sacrifice? Not whether or not you agree that the character's in the bible sacrificied or not..

In answer to the original question.. I do believe that there is no great sacrifice than when one person lay down his life for another.

I will contend with an earlier point that "sacrifice" is just a waste. Perhaps... with the definition that was stated for sacrifice in that post, then, by definition, it will always be a waste.

But.. I'm not sure sacrifice is so narrowly limited.

I will "sacrifice" my car so that my brother can go to school. Or.. I will "sacrifice" some Taco Bell so I can buy a birthday present for a friend.

These.. I believe.. are accurate uses of the words. 

See, I would argue that this wouldn't be a sacrifice though.  Your brother going to school is more important to you than your car.  Or getting a friend a birthday present means more to you than eating at Taco Bell, doesn't it?  Making your friend happy would make you happy?  Then it wouldn't be a sacrifice.

Admittedly, my opinion on sacrifice is a bit narrow.  I don't think that makes it any less accurate.  I've always been under the impression that the sacrifice would result in a loss for the person sacrificing. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Quote: I am going to show

Quote:
I am going to show you that it is not in a bit, but I still want to hear from others.  Is sacrficing oneself the greatest possible sacrifice?  If not, what is?

Keep in mind that I did not state that "to give up on's life is the ultimate sacrifice" but "to give up one's life for someone else's is the ultimate sacrifice."

A small distinction.. but important I believe.

It's possible that you might be able to "prove" my statement wrong.. but I don't see how without infusing some sort of subjective standard of "ultimate" or relative values between "pain" vs "non-life."

For instance, "The ultimate sacrifice would be to suffer for X years so that another may live." 


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Quote: Admittedly, my

Quote:
Admittedly, my opinion on sacrifice is a bit narrow.  I don't think that makes it any less accurate.  I've always been under the impression that the sacrifice would result in a loss for the person sacrificing.

It's possible.  I believe that this is one of those things that we can both be correct.. the word sacrifice is used rather liberally.. but-- the only problem I would contend exists in your definition is that it would seem to suggest that a person CAN give up something in order to get or create something of lesser value.

No one chops off their hand for the purpose of some aggregate diminution of value to himself.

A: "Give me your hand for this piece of candy."

B: "But I love my hand.  However, I love that piece of candy more."

Objectively you may say it's stupid for him to give up his hand-- and would be a sacrifice.. but.. with your definition.. if he gives up his hand.. I can easily make the argument that it's not a sacrifice because the piece of candy meant more to him.


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Quote: Mind this: What

Quote:
Mind this: What would you sacrifice? your index finger, or your whole hand? With either of these actions, you achieve the same effec. What's your choice?

My index finger! Bing. Next question please. 


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Rhad, I will be able to

Rhad, I will be able to prove that the ultimate sacrifice isn't your life for someone else's - but not just yet.Tongue out

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Quote: Greatest sacrifice

Quote:

Greatest sacrifice is easy 

Dying for a cause without believing in an afterlife, its no sacrifice if you think you are of to heaven.

 Why wouldn't it be a sacrifice? I thiink this is, again, one of those narrow applications of the word.. just because you are gaining something that means more to you than what you are giving up... does not mean you did not give up something for something else. Ergo, sacrifice.

A non sacrifice would be to give a piece of candy for another piece of candy which is the same in every way, all things being equal.

P.S. I love candy.  I love lamp. 


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Quote: Rhad, I will be able

Quote:
Rhad, I will be able to prove that the ultimate sacrifice isn't your life for someone else's - but not just yet.Tongue out
I'm on pins and needles. Eye-wink


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RhadTheGizmo wrote: It's

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

It's possible.  I believe that this is one of those things that we can both be correct.. the word sacrifice is used rather liberally.. but-- the only problem I would contend exists in your definition is that it would seem to suggest that a person CAN give up something in order to get or create something of lesser value.

No one chops off their hand for the purpose of some aggregate diminution of value to himself.

A: "Give me your hand for this piece of candy."

B: "But I love my hand.  However, I love that piece of candy more."

Objectively you may say it's stupid for him to give up his hand-- and would be a sacrifice.. but.. with your definition.. if he gives up his hand.. I can easily make the argument that it's not a sacrifice because the piece of candy meant more to him.

I think we both could be correct on this.  However, if a person gave something up in order to get something of lesser value I don’t think that would be a sacrifice.  Well, I suppose you could argue it could be, but that would be incredibly stupid and irrational.  I mean, in the long run, isn’t his hand going to be more important than a piece of candy that has no function?  Huh.  Son of a bitch, have I just ran myself in a circle? 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


RhadTheGizmo
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Quote:

[edit] Gone.  Heh, no matter how I typed it.. it didn't come across as correct.  So I'll just leave it with the post above.. Yes.. I think we are both correct in some sense.  A difference of definitions. Smiling


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RhadTheGizmo wrote: [edit]

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
[edit] Gone.  Heh, no matter how I typed it.. it didn't come across as correct.  So I'll just leave it with the post above.. Yes.. I think we are both correct in some sense.  A difference of definitions. Smiling

Ack!  what happened?!  I went to reply to your post and you changed it on me!  LOL.

All I remember is Ms. Objective standard.  Sticking out tongue

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Quote:

Quote:

Ack! what happened?! I went to reply to your post and you changed it on me! LOL.

I sacrificed it.

Quote:
All I remember is Ms. Objective standard. Sticking out tongue

Prove it! Mwuah.

But yes.. I did. Heh.

Sorry about changing the post mid-way... I know how it is to lose a post because some edited what I was replying to in the meantime. :/

Hmm.. I need to go back to work. 


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xamination wrote: I have

xamination wrote:
I have often heard from Christians that Jesus made the "ultimate sacrifice" by letting himself die in order for him to save humanity.  These same people argue that the sacrifice of oneself is the greatest sacrifice you can make.  I disagree.  However, before I get to talking about what I think is the ultimate sacrifice, I wish to ask both atheists and theists alike:  What is the greatest thing you could give up?  What, in your opinion, is the ultimate sacrifice?

 

i have never sacrificed anything, nor would i ever. the greatest sacrifice is sacrifice itself. it not only betrays you, but everything you value as well.  

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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pariahjane wrote: I don't

pariahjane wrote:

I don't believe in sacrifice.  To me, sacrificing is destroying something great so that something that is not great can continue, if that makes sense.  Meaning, I'm not going to jump into a lake to rescue a stranger if I cannot swim and risk drowning myself.  That person's life does not mean more to me than my own.  However, if that person drowning were someone I cared about, I'd probably jump right in regardless of the risk to myself.

I don't think there is anything noble about sacrifice.  It's just a waste.

 

you dont happen to have any randian influence do you?

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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So since I have gotten a

So since I have gotten a decent ammount of responses, I believe I can continue in this discussion. 

Let me first clarify that when I talk of sacrifice, I mean giving up something for the greater good - this will become clear in the next part of my post.

 

 So I asked what was the greatest possible sacrifice a man could make, and I got a wide variety of responses.  However, I am going to address the two most frequent responses, not just here, but in the thinking of the average man.  The first response was that sacrifice was not noble, that sacrifice was pointless.  To quip:

Quote:
 

I don't believe in sacrifice.  To me, sacrificing is destroying something great so that something that is not great can continue, if that makes sense.  Meaning, I'm not going to jump into a lake to rescue a stranger if I cannot swim and risk drowning myself.  That person's life does not mean more to me than my own.  However, if that person drowning were someone I cared about, I'd probably jump right in regardless of the risk to myself.

I don't think there is anything noble about sacrifice.  It's just a waste.

 

To the people who say this... there is not much I can say.  All I can say is that I strongly disagree with yall(I'm from Kentucky), and that you need to seriously reevaluate your view on life.  Do you not care for your average man?  Or is it fear of death that holds you back?  (Wow, that'll ruffle some feathers)

Now, the second response is that the ultimate sacrifice is the sacrifice of oneself for another.  While I do believe self-sacrifice is great, it is not the greatest.  Too prove this, however, I must venture slightly out of the logical world - this is because the emotional response of people is hard to put logically, so if my proof looks somewhat odd and looks like it was written by a theist, forgive me.

What I'm going to do is ask you a series of questions, all I ask you to do is think through them carefully, then answer them honestly.   

You are placed into a hypothetical situation in which 100 people's lives are in mortal peril.  The only way for you to save them is to give something up - don't worry about the details.

So:

Would you give up your car?

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

Would you give up your life?

Now, here is where things get more difficult.

 

Would you betray someone you love?

Would you kill someone you love?

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts, kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

 

You see, the greatest sacrifice isn't of one's own life.  When you sacrifice yourself, not only do you know that you will be praised for your actions, but there is peace afterwards, either through nonexistance or some form of afterlife.  The greatest sacrifice is of your heart, not your body.


 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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lil_rascal3336

lil_rascal3336 wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

I don't believe in sacrifice. To me, sacrificing is destroying something great so that something that is not great can continue, if that makes sense. Meaning, I'm not going to jump into a lake to rescue a stranger if I cannot swim and risk drowning myself. That person's life does not mean more to me than my own. However, if that person drowning were someone I cared about, I'd probably jump right in regardless of the risk to myself.

I don't think there is anything noble about sacrifice. It's just a waste.

 

you dont happen to have any randian influence do you?

Randian?  As in Ayn Rand?  I'm afraid I do.  that obvious, huh? lol.  I disagree with many things she has said, but this I very much agree with.  I've always had.  

I'm a bit tired so forgive me if I'm cryptic.  I dislike the idea of sacrifice.  To me, the only people who benefit from it are those that do nothing to earn it.   I've worked very hard to survive.  I've been without a home.  I've made my way and I expect the same of those around me. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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i thought i was the only

i thought i was the only one on here who had even heard of her.

 as to the "that obvious" thing, you can usually pick out people who agree with rand (on atleast the fundimentals) at first glance.  

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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Would you give up your

Would you give up your car?

- depending on the people in question i might.  

 

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

-same answer as the previous 

 

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

-same answer

Would you give up your life?

-same answer

Would you betray someone you love?

-same answer

Would you kill someone you love?

-same answer with the addition of, does the loved one deserve it

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts,

-depends 

 kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

- not for anyone or anything.

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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lil_rascal3336

lil_rascal3336 wrote:

Would you give up your car?

- depending on the people in question i might.

 

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

-same answer as the previous

 

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

-same answer

Would you give up your life?

-same answer

Would you betray someone you love?

-same answer

Would you kill someone you love?

-same answer with the addition of, does the loved one deserve it

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts,

-depends

kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

- not for anyone or anything.

Ditto this! 


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Quote: So: Would you give

Quote:
So:

Would you give up your car?

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

Would you give up your life?

Now, here is where things get more difficult.

Would you betray someone you love?

Would you kill someone you love?

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts, kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

You see, the greatest sacrifice isn't of one's own life.  When you sacrifice yourself, not only do you know that you will be praised for your actions, but there is peace afterwards, either through nonexistance or some form of afterlife.  The greatest sacrifice is of your heart, not your body.


If this is your definition of sacrifice:

Quote:
Let me first clarify that when I talk of sacrifice, I mean giving up something for the greater good - this will become clear in the next part of my post.

How exactly would you be giving up your heart? your morals? you still have the same morals.. you still have the same feelings.. you are just acting contrary to what they are pushing you to do.

If I reeeally want to turn right-- but I turn left.. did I sacrifice the left?

I would contend not.

However.. if you questions are..

"Would you give up your morals..such as.. a hypothetical which stated: In exchange for your morals (or, in essence all you think was right will be turned, in your mind, to wrong) in exchange for 100 peoples lives."

Would you do it?

That's a different question.. and different emotions attached as well... however, it properly, in my mind, applies the definition of sacrifice you gave.

As for.. "would you kill someone you love?" that's not really "giving up" something either-- it's more "taking" something that's not yours.

Now.. if the question was.. "would you cut off all contact with someone you love so that 100 people might live?" Once again.. a proper, I believe, application of your definition.. which.. has different emotions attached and might lead to an easier "yes" then "I will give up my life so that 100 people might live."


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Winston Churchill, the

Winston Churchill, the entire city of Coventry was sacrificed in order to keep the fact that Bletchley Park had cracked the Enigma code secret,

General Beck, the Black Orchestra

http://www.oxfordreference.com/pages/samplep-06

like this Xamination ?

 


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Quote: Would you give up

Quote:

Would you give up your car?

- depending on the people in question i might.  

 

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

-same answer as the previous 

 

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

-same answer

Would you give up your life?

-same answer

Would you betray someone you love?

-same answer

Would you kill someone you love?

-same answer with the addition of, does the loved one deserve it

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts,

-depends 

 kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

- not for anyone or anything.

So basically you have answered maybe to all but one of the questions.  If you honestly don't know, that's fine.  It is a fine thing to think about.  But if you are saying maybe because you are unwilling to answer the questions, I must ask why.

As for your last response, again I must ask why.  Do you believe your moral integrity to be above the lives of 100 people? 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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Quote: How exactly would

Quote:
How exactly would you be giving up your heart? your morals? you still have the same morals.. you still have the same feelings.. you are just acting contrary to what they are pushing you to do.

Let me try to explain that one again - we are dealing with emotions, remember, and its hard to put this stuff logically.

Rhad, if you were forced to kill someone you loved, not out of hate or spite, but for the greater good, would your guilt allow you to love the same way again?

 Remember, what I am arguing is not that these actions are moral or immoral, right or wrong.  All I am saying is that there are sacrifices greater than death, because with death comes peace.  With what I am trying to describe, there is only emotional torment.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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lil_rascal3336 wrote: i

lil_rascal3336 wrote:

i thought i was the only one on here who had even heard of her.

 as to the "that obvious" thing, you can usually pick out people who agree with rand (on atleast the fundimentals) at first glance.  

There are quite a few around here who are very familiar with her.  The fundamental Randians are terrifying.  They're insane. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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xamination wrote: So since

xamination wrote:

So since I have gotten a decent ammount of responses, I believe I can continue in this discussion. 

Let me first clarify that when I talk of sacrifice, I mean giving up something for the greater good - this will become clear in the next part of my post.

 

 So I asked what was the greatest possible sacrifice a man could make, and I got a wide variety of responses.  However, I am going to address the two most frequent responses, not just here, but in the thinking of the average man.  The first response was that sacrifice was not noble, that sacrifice was pointless.  To quip:

Quote:
 

I don't believe in sacrifice.  To me, sacrificing is destroying something great so that something that is not great can continue, if that makes sense.  Meaning, I'm not going to jump into a lake to rescue a stranger if I cannot swim and risk drowning myself.  That person's life does not mean more to me than my own.  However, if that person drowning were someone I cared about, I'd probably jump right in regardless of the risk to myself.

I don't think there is anything noble about sacrifice.  It's just a waste.

 

To the people who say this... there is not much I can say.  All I can say is that I strongly disagree with yall(I'm from Kentucky), and that you need to seriously reevaluate your view on life.  Do you not care for your average man?  Or is it fear of death that holds you back?  (Wow, that'll ruffle some feathers)

Why would I need to reevaluate my view on life?  Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong. 

Simply put, yes, I do care for the average man.  I just care more for myself and those that are close to me than I do for some stranger I've never met. I imagine most people would.  I'm not going to die, or hurt myself so that someone else can live.  Who says that person's life is greater than mine?  Likewise, I expect no one to sacrifice anything for my benefit alone.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  Why do you think its wrong?

I enjoy living comfortably and the idea of that ending can be disconcerting, but I don't believe that I fear death. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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xamination

xamination wrote:
Quote:

Would you give up your car?

- depending on the people in question i might.  

 

Would you give up an item you are emotionally attatched to, like, say, your dead father's watchz?

-same answer as the previous 

 

Would you give up all your possesions and money?

-same answer

Would you give up your life?

-same answer

Would you betray someone you love?

-same answer

Would you kill someone you love?

-same answer with the addition of, does the loved one deserve it

Would you be willing to let those who you love hate your guts,

-depends 

 kill the innocent, and give up your morals?

- not for anyone or anything.

So basically you have answered maybe to all but one of the questions.  If you honestly don't know, that's fine. 

 -its not i dont know, its that it depends on who the people are.

 

As for your last response, again I must ask why.  Do you believe your moral integrity to be above the lives of 100 people? 

 

my moral integrety is what i am. i would never give it up. i would do all i could to save the 100 people (again assuming they are people worth saving) but i would never go against the rights of anyone to save the lives of anyone else, which is what betraying my morals would be.

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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Quote: my moral integrety

Quote:
my moral integrety is what i am. i would never give it up. i would do all i could to save the 100 people (again assuming they are people worth saving) but i would never go against the rights of anyone to save the lives of anyone else, which is what betraying my morals would be.

But sometimes you must.  If the only way to save 100 people were to kill 10, then logic and morality would dictate that since some people are going to die, it is best that the 10 are sacrificed, since 10<100.  It is nice to say that you would never condemn anyone to their death, but sometimes you must.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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ends never justefy the

ends never justefy the means.

 

edit: never said i wouldnt kill anyone, just that i would never kill innocents. if soomeones life was in emedeat thret, i would have no qualms with sadating the thret, one way or another. in fact im a supporter of the death penalty.

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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Quote: Winston Churchill,

Quote:

Winston Churchill, the entire city of Coventry was sacrificed in order to keep the fact that Bletchley Park had cracked the Enigma code secret,

General Beck, the Black Orchestra

http://www.oxfordreference.com/pages/samplep-06

like this Xamination ?

I think this is a bit different then what he was presenting.. surely a military sacrifice is not the same sacrifice he was meaning when he presented the question whether one would be willing to kill X to save Y.. but perhaps I'm wrong.

As a counterpoint-- perhaps one might consider it a great "sacrifice" to let X, who you love, die in order that 100 people, who you've not known before, might live.

Hmm.. but even so.. would this be a "greater sacrifice" than giving up your own life? Hmm.. not so sure.


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Rhad, if you or a loved one

Rhad, if you or a loved one had to die, who would you rather live?


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thats not a sacrifice. a

thats not a sacrifice. a sacrifice is going against your morals. dieing in the stead of a loved one isnt a sacrifice, it is the ultamit expression of your values.

I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction. ayn rand


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xamination wrote: Rhad, if

xamination wrote:
Rhad, if you or a loved one had to die, who would you rather live?

Hope you don't mind if I jump on this one.  I suppose I could say that I would rather die if I loved someone so much that I couldn't bear not to have them in my life. 

However, as cold as it seems, I believe I would probably choose my life over anyone else's.

 I can't say with any certainty what I would do.  It would depend on who it is and my emotional state at the time.

However, I don't understand what this has to do with sacrifice.  This has to do with self preservation. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Quote: Let me try to

Quote:
Let me try to explain that one again - we are dealing with emotions, remember, and its hard to put this stuff logically.

Rhad, if you were forced to kill someone you loved, not out of hate or spite, but for the greater good, would your guilt allow you to love the same way again?

Phrasing it this way would not be correct.  You do not "sacrifice" a person you love when you kill them.  You might, however, "sacrifice the ability to have them with you."

In other words.. it's not the action which is the sacrifice.. but the results of that action.  This is something, I think, you correctly touch upon in the next part...

Quote:
Remember, what I am arguing is not that these actions are moral or immoral, right or wrong.  All I am saying is that there are sacrifices greater than death, because with death comes peace.  With what I am trying to describe, there is only emotional torment.

Yes.. emotional torment, perhaps.  The importance of the hypothetical doesn't reside in the action but in the torment that comes about after the fact because of the absence of the one you love and knowledge that you were the reason for it.  In other you, you have "sacrificed your peace of mind (for a moment, perhaps forever, with regards to love)."

But to take it to a more extreme, let's just say "peace of mind" generally-- and more so, to the extent that you are "insane" if you don't have "piece of mind."  Whether or not "peace of mind" is a "more ultimate sacrifice" than one's life-- is debatable, I think.

Here are a question that might flush out the idea:

If you had to give up one of two things for a piece of candy, which would you rather give up, your life or your piece of mind?

Now.. how would this ever come about? It wouldn't.  You never know that giving up some sort "piece of mind" in the present will mean that you will never have piece of mind again.  Which is I believe the problem with your hypothetical as well..

Fine.. I kill someone I love and therefore "sacrifice my ability to love"-- but is this sacrifice for a moment? forever? who knows.

At any point and time after-the-fact I will have the oppotunity to crawl out of the despair.

The concept of giving up ones life is consider to great a sacrifice because this very reason, that it is seemingly final and not temporary.

In anycase.. I keep pushing that "killing someone" is not a sacrifice.  Perhaps "killing a cow" might be considered a sacrifice.. because you are "sacrificing property".. but "someone you love" or "innocents" are not property to be sacrificed-- I think it's an incorrect application of the word or suggestion.

Quote:
But sometimes you must.  If the only way to save 100 people were to kill 10, then logic and morality would dictate that since some people are going to die, it is best that the 10 are sacrificed, since 10<100.  It is nice to say that you would never condemn anyone to their death, but sometimes you must.

Logic and morality do nothing of the sort.  Economics perhaps says that you should kill 10 to save 100.. but morality surely doesn't.

It's the classic trolly v. doctor case.

If I can save 10 people with the organs of one, do I kill the one to give the organs to the others?
If I can save 10 people by letting my trolly roll over one, do I let my trolly run over the one or the ten?

Different moral implications.  You're suggest that the first one would be "morally dictated"-- hm.. I don't believe so.