Are you serious?[Moved to Atheist vs. Theist]

Riverwind
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Are you serious?[Moved to Atheist vs. Theist]

"Freethinkers Anonymous" Forum:

"NO THEISTS ALLOWED IN THIS FORUM. THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED."

 

Are you guys for real?? Laughing


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Yeah they are pretty serious

Yeah they are pretty serious about this, this is a Theists free forum, you can check out deviants post regarding this in the Atheists vs Theists forum


Riverwind
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latincanuck wrote: Yeah

latincanuck wrote:
Yeah they are pretty serious about this...

 

No.  That's fine, it just makes me chuckle to read Freethinkers Anonymous as the title to a forum that forbids freethought.  Smiling


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except it doesn't forbid

except it doesn't forbid freethought.

It lets us think freely without every single theist trying to debate us, thats what atheist vs. theist is for.  


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Hey bud, go on Christian

Hey bud, go on Christian Forums, they got more than 50% of the site "Christians only". Eye-wink This ONE board being atheists only is nothing.

Support our voice in politics by voting for the question "Is America unofficially a Theocracy?" at http://www.communitycounts.us/debates so it can be asked live at the CNN/YouTube debates!!


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Unsavedsinner wrote:

Unsavedsinner wrote:
Hey bud, go on Christian Forums, they got more than 50% of the site "Christians only". Eye-wink This ONE board being atheists only is nothing.

 

Been there. Besides, I thought one of the main points of this website was to "cure theists", at least that's what Brian Sapient's profile says. Why wouldn't you want me in your forums? Smiling

I rather enjoy true freethinkers, but I've encountered very few. Those who loudly proclaim their status as "freethinkers" rarely are.

I just don't understand a board that talks about "freethought" and can't allow that "freethought" to extend to theism. Doesn't sound much like true free thought to me.


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No one says you

No one says you can't have free thinking in the other forums, just this one is for non theists period. It is not  really that hard to comprehend and for just 1 forum to be closed to theists, and claiming freethinkers is an odd statement, well let it be, it's freethinkers, free from theists. Take as is, this is 1 forum vs 10 plus forums that is open to anyone.

What's the big deal? I don't get your complaint at all. It's like whining to simply whine

 


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What is wrong with one board

What is wrong with one board for just atheists on an atheist site? On the Christian Forums, you guys get half the site all to yourselves...
Also, we are mostly freethinkers because most of us were taught in a theist household. Our minds were open and we discovered the truth that there is no god just like there are no faries. 

Support our voice in politics by voting for the question "Is America unofficially a Theocracy?" at http://www.communitycounts.us/debates so it can be asked live at the CNN/YouTube debates!!


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latincanuck wrote: What's

latincanuck wrote:
What's the big deal?

 

My point is that if you reject theism out of hand (in a forum labeled "Freethinkers Anonymous&quotEye-wink, then how is that "freethinking"?

 Shouldn't "freethinkers" be free to think along whatever lines they like, be they theistic or atheistic?  If not, then they're not really "freethinkers", they're athiest-thinkers, a totally different bear.  Eye-wink


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Riverwind, Religious dogma

Riverwind,

Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought. This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times. 

 

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Unsavedsinner wrote: What

Unsavedsinner wrote:
What is wrong with one board for just atheists on an atheist site?

Nothing.  Just call it what it is...an athiest-only forum. 

 

"Freethinkers" for such an exclusive forum is a misnomer of the worst kind. 

Quote:
Also, we are mostly freethinkers because most of us were taught in a theist household. Our minds were open and we discovered the truth that there is no god just like there are no faries.

I am also a freethinker.  I have faith and hope in Jesus, but I can also take a step back and say "What if..." and analyze the world from the perspective that God doesn't exist.  What I see without a God is chaotic and meaningless...a la existentialist philosophy.  People can derive temporary meaning from silly and pleasureable life pursuits, but in the end you die and it was all for naught.  It's easy for affluent people in wealthy nations (those who are likely on the internet here) to think that they can be independent of God...everything's great...but for some starving and dehydrated individual in the depths of a 3rd world country torn by war and genocide, atheism has nothing to offer except the "comfort" of a quick and hopefully painless death and then nothingness.

So, one can talk of cliche "fairies", "flying spagetti monsters", "invisible pink unicorns", and such (except that I am unaware of any ancient "holy" texts that speak of "fairies" as entities who created us and the world...), but they miss the point that purely understood atheism leads directly to nihilism and purely understood nihilism to suicide.  You may say that doesn't happen.  Just go to alt.suicide and other such places and I'll guarantee you it does.

I and my freethought don't think much of chaotic and meaningless atheism.  I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.  Many think they understand atheism, but they don't.  They merely fit themselves into their society's norms, and in most societies around the world, those societal values have their base in the religious beliefs of that the majority of people carry.  Atheists aren't really good because they want to be good, they're good because that's what they've been taught by those societal values or because they understand the notion of quid pro quo.


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Riverwind

Riverwind wrote:

latincanuck wrote:
What's the big deal?

 

My point is that if you reject theism out of hand (in a forum labeled "Freethinkers Anonymous&quotEye-wink, then how is that "freethinking"?

Shouldn't "freethinkers" be free to think along whatever lines they like, be they theistic or atheistic? If not, then they're not really "freethinkers", they're athiest-thinkers, a totally different bear. Eye-wink

 

    Who says we reject theism....just this forum right here, is for those that are freethinkers. It is regarded in other forums that theists are not freethinkers (they have to have obidience to a god or god like deity that tells them how to live and what to do, as such the are not freethinkers, there i hope that has answered your question) now off to more important topics. 


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darth_josh wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought.

Except that it doesn't. On the contrary, it encourages us to test. What Christians have is belief, faith, and hope.... None of those things keep me from analyzing the world both with and without the God of the Bible or any other religion. We were all born into the same world and none of us understand why any better than they other. Some choose to believe in ancient traditions of Gods and in general beliefs in Gods that have been with humans since the dawn of human history. Others choose to not to believe in anything except death, nothingness, and meaninglessness. Eye-wink

Quote:
This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times.

I would dare say that perhaps those who lost their 'faith' never understood what 'faith' was to begin with. 'Faith' is something you choose to have or not to have.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 


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I would dare say that

I would dare say that anyone declaring to be open-minded and freethinking that thinks they already know everything that has been said on a site in 4 hours of membership was a hypocrite.

 

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Riverwind wrote: I would

Riverwind wrote:
I would dare say that perhaps those who lost their 'faith' never understood what 'faith' was to begin with. 'Faith' is something you choose to have or not to have.

You can choose what you find to be true? Thats a niffty trick. Does that mean you can choose to find something true that you don't think is true? I know it sounds confusing, but thats what it sounds like when you say people choose to have faith.


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Riverwind

Riverwind wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought.[/ quote]

Except that it doesn't. On the contrary, it encourages us to test. What Christians have is belief, faith, and hope.... None of those things keep me from analyzing the world both with and without the God of the Bible or any other religion. We were all born into the same world and none of us understand why any better than they other. Some choose to believe in ancient traditions of Gods and in general beliefs in Gods that have been with humans since the dawn of human history. Others choose to not to believe in anything except death, nothingness, and meaninglessness. Eye-wink

Quote:
This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times.

I would dare say that perhaps those who lost their 'faith' never understood what 'faith' was to begin with. 'Faith' is something you choose to have or not to have.

 

No True Scotsman much? 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Voiderest wrote:

Voiderest wrote:

You can choose what you find to be true? Thats a niffty trick.

Yes. What is truth for an athiest? Is there any such thing? Everyone has faith in something (yes, I know atheists scoff at this but they also have many irrational beliefs and ideas).

Regardless, what you actually seem to be criticizing is a "blind faith". I think that people of religion do more than you think they do. They hear of ancient traditions from people they trust. They see truth in the words of those traditions and in the world around them. They see the meaninglessness of life without God, just as Solomon the first existentialist philosophy. Their faith is not quite as "blind" as some would like to portray it. There is "data" the encourages them in that decision to have faith.

This is not far afield from what many do with respect to evolution. They take ancient data and recent observations and extrapolate something bigger that they must believe on faith and that ancient data because they can't "macroevolution". It is by chosen faith in their interpretation of the data. That's ok with me. I also happen to believe in evolution, yes, even as a Christian.

Quote:
Does that mean you can choose to find something true that you don't think is true? I know it sounds confusing, but thats what it sounds like when you say people choose to have faith.

It sounds confusing because people don't choose to believe in things they don't think are true.... If you don't think religion is "true", then you can't believe in it and being intellectually honest. However, there are many very intelligent people, regardless of bogus atheist statistics, that are also people of religion...and for good reasons.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 


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jcgadfly wrote: No True

jcgadfly wrote:
No True Scotsman much?

 

"No True Scotsman" is an overused fallacy.  Even with my religious beliefs, I could call myself an atheist but that wouldn't make me one by the haphazard standards of most atheists.

Will you let me be your fellow Scotsman?  Eye-wink 


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I guess my ultimate point

I guess my ultimate point has been borne out by this website....

 

There are no true freethinking leaders in the "freethinking anonymous" forum.  You can't be a true freethinker and exclude free thought from your forum.

 It just goes to prove, absolutely, that the "Freethinking anonymous" forum is badly misnamed and should instead be either the "Atheist-Thinkers Only Forum" or the "Atheist Anonymous" (AA...hmmm... Eye-wink  ) forum.  (See...I told you I had a sense of humor, not that you'll like it any more than I like the "humor" of this website.)


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Riverwind wrote: jcgadfly

Riverwind wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
No True Scotsman much?

 

"No True Scotsman" is an overused fallacy. Even with my religious beliefs, I could call myself an atheist but that wouldn't make me one by the haphazard standards of most atheists.

Will you let me be your fellow Scotsman? Eye-wink

It is overused and I really wish you theists would stop doing that.

What haphazard standards of athiesm are you talking about? You don't believe in God, you're an atheist. Not nearly as haphazard as Christian denominationalism. 

 Smiling back at you

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Riverwind wrote: I guess

Riverwind wrote:

I guess my ultimate point has been borne out by this website....

 

There are no true freethinking leaders in the "freethinking anonymous" forum. You can't be a true freethinker and exclude free thought from your forum.

It just goes to prove, absolutely, that the "Freethinking anonymous" forum is badly misnamed and should instead be either the "Atheist-Thinkers Only Forum" or the "Atheist Anonymous" (AA...hmmm... Eye-wink ) forum. (See...I told you I had a sense of humor, not that you'll like it any more than I like the "humor" of this website.)

Why do you think you have any right to come here and decide what forums should be named?  This is not your website and the owners of it have the right to name the forums whatever they want.  You  are allowed to post here for free and if they wanted to censor your posts (thoughts) they hardly need to close off one forum to you in order to do it.  The fact that this ridiculous thread has not been deleted should give you some clue about the fact that your thoughts (free or not) are welcome here.

The common definition of the word "freethinker" is tied to atheism so I fail to see why there is so much confusion about this.  Your posts do nothing more than provide another example of pushy theists wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  As a theist you are not allowed to post in ONE forum.  Why is this such an incredible problem for you?   


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jcgadfly wrote: It is

jcgadfly wrote:
It is overused and I really wish you theists would stop doing that.

 It just shows that many rarely understand the phrases that they use to dismiss arguments out of hand.

You should still answer my question.  Can I be your fellow "Scotsman"?

I think I will go change my label to atheist.  Is that ok?  Will you say that I am not a "true Scotsman"?

Who has the right to determine who is and who is not a "true Scotsman"?  Is it the person on the inside?  The person on the outside?  Who? 


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jce wrote: Why do you think

jce wrote:
Why do you think you have any right to come here and decide what forums should be named?

(1) I'm expressing my opinion.  Is that sort of free thought also discouraged here?  Eye-wink

(2)  I call out errors when I see them, especially when they are grevious errors made by those who consider themselves intelligent and elite merely by labelling themselves atheists.

(3) I can't make you change the erroneous name, so why are you worried?  Oh...it's because you see the dilemma and it causes some cognitive dissonance.  Eye-wink 

Quote:
The fact that this ridiculous thread has not been deleted should give you some clue about the fact that your thoughts (free or not) are welcome here.

 That's not the point, although I'd question whether my thoughts are really "welcome" here.  Smiling

Quote:
The common definition of the word "freethinker" is tied to atheism...

It is a rude misnomer.  It is meant to place the atheist in a position of arrogance and self-importance, as if they are the only humans on earth who have it all figured out, as if they are the only ones who can think about the difficult issues of why we exist.  If you think this is the case, then you are sadly deluded and certainly not a "freethinker".

Quote:
...so I fail to see why there is so much confusion about this. Your posts do nothing more than provide another example of pushy theists wanting to have their cake and eat it too. As a theist you are not allowed to post in ONE forum. Why is this such an incredible problem for you?

I've already stated my problem with it.  It is a misnomer.  It goes to show that pushy atheists (like those that this website is created by and for) don't have a corner on truth and reality.  In fact, they are often wrong and tend to use the same fallacies they continually throw at people of religion without really understanding them.  It's nice to dismiss someone's argumentation with a mere, theatrical wave of the the rhetorical hand. 


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Riverwind

Riverwind wrote:

"Freethinkers Anonymous" Forum:

"NO THEISTS ALLOWED IN THIS FORUM. THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED."

 

Are you guys for real?? Laughing

Do you have any pets? If so I don't like what you have named them and I am upset you didn't consult me. I think their name/names should be changed to something I deem worthy.

Did you consult me before you chose your user name? No! Well I disagree with your moniker and I do not think you represent a river or the wind, rather I think you depict a fart. Just here to make a stink, so your username should be "Fartknocker". 


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Riverwind wrote: jcgadfly

Riverwind wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
It is overused and I really wish you theists would stop doing that.

It just shows that many rarely understand the phrases that they use to dismiss arguments out of hand.

You should still answer my question. Can I be your fellow "Scotsman"?

I think I will go change my label to atheist. Is that ok? Will you say that I am not a "true Scotsman"?

Who has the right to determine who is and who is not a "true Scotsman"? Is it the person on the inside? The person on the outside? Who?

You didn't bring an argument. You claimed that those who lost faith didn't understand it in the first place.

That implies:

1. You fully understand faith.

2. Your understanding is the only correct one.

3. Anyone who doesn't understand it exactly the way your do never had it in the first place. 

Using a logical fallacy and being pompous about it doesn't do well toward anyone taking your argument seriously.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Riverwind wrote: Who has

Riverwind wrote:

Who has the right to determine who is and who is not a "true Scotsman"? Is it the person on the inside? The person on the outside? Who?

Well, you are certainly proving yourself to be one True Jackass.

You come to an atheist website and start bashing on atheists - for what purpose?  Feeling left out of the "cool kids" group?  Awww...here is a thought:  Why don't you calm yourself down and post a real topic for discussion and see how it goes before you decide to judge us?  Hmmmmm? 


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BGH wrote: Do you have any

BGH wrote:
Do you have any pets? If so I don't like what you have named them and I am upset you didn't consult me. I think their name/names should be changed to something I deem worthy.

False analogy.

If I were to name my dog "cat", then you might have a point. 

Are you saying that the epithet, "Freethinker", has no more meaning than a mere name?  Or is it, rather, intended to show theists just how much more intelligent and thoughtful athiests are supposed to be?  Eye-wink

 If I named my dog "BGH-ain't-as-smart-as-he-thinks", would that be ok, or would you complain about it?  


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jcgadfly wrote: You didn't

jcgadfly wrote:
You didn't bring an argument.

 I certainly did, but that's beside the point.  You never answered my question, so I'll put it to you a third time...and in a little different form.

 

Am I an atheist?  Why or why not?

 

Allow me to explain this for you since you likely will not answer because you know what it means.

What it means is that you believe you understand what the qualifications are for being an atheist.  Looking to those qualifications, you would at more honest times that I am no "true atheist".


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Riverwind wrote: False

Riverwind wrote:

False analogy.

No, true analogy. You do not own this site and have no say in what anything is named here. Hell, I would like it if 'Trollville' was named 'Fucking Retard Land', but again I do not own the site. 


Riverwind wrote:
If I named my dog "BGH-ain't-as-smart-as-he-thinks", would that be ok, or would you complain about it?

Funny thing about that, I find out every day I am not as smart as I think I am, that is part of being a learner and a rational human being.  I would laugh at your dog's name though.

 


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jce wrote: Well, you are

jce wrote:
Well, you are certainly proving yourself to be one True Jackass.

You come to an atheist website and start bashing on atheists - for what purpose?

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?  Eye-wink

The entire purpose of this website is to ridicule religion and especially Christianity and you are surprised that someone wants to examine your own irrational beliefs in more detail?

This website seems to want to make me think.  Well, now I want its creators and participants to do a little more thinking.

As in another thread where I've posted..."war begets war".  The premise of this site is negative.  This site and what it espouses will only bring negativity back to it. 

 

Quote:
Feeling left out of the "cool kids" group? Awww...here is a thought: Why don't you calm yourself down and post a real topic for discussion and see how it goes before you decide to judge us? Hmmmmm?

Judge?  I'll throw in criticize too.  You mean like this website and many participants do to my faith?

 

"Cool kids".  That's certainly how I perceive this particular website.  Perhaps it is a misperception, but what I see is a majority who are between their teens and 30s.  It's certainly "cool" to rebel against societies norms, the very norms atheists should follow if they are to have any sort of non-anarchic existence.

I don't think the "cool kids" know how to handle adult arguments.  They seem rather flustered that intelligent and honest theists exist in the world.  When they can't handle them, they seem to want them to go away. 


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Riverwind

Riverwind wrote:

Unsavedsinner wrote:
Hey bud, go on Christian Forums, they got more than 50% of the site "Christians only". Eye-wink This ONE board being atheists only is nothing.

 

Been there. Besides, I thought one of the main points of this website was to "cure theists", at least that's what Brian Sapient's profile says. Why wouldn't you want me in your forums? Smiling

I rather enjoy true freethinkers, but I've encountered very few. Those who loudly proclaim their status as "freethinkers" rarely are.

I just don't understand a board that talks about "freethought" and can't allow that "freethought" to extend to theism. Doesn't sound much like true free thought to me.

One should look up a definition of a word before they starting crying foul at the people who use it.  RRS is merely applying a term that is already in use.  

free·think·er       (frē'thĭng'kər)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Don't you theists get that

Don't you theists get that "Freethinker" is a synonym for atheist?

 


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Riverwind wrote: jce

Riverwind wrote:
jce wrote:
Well, you are certainly proving yourself to be one True Jackass.

You come to an atheist website and start bashing on atheists - for what purpose?

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? Eye-wink

No. YOU came HERE. WE did not come to YOU. I'll repeat what I have said to others - coming here is no different than entering someone's home. You were fully aware of the point of view of this site prior to coming here. If you don't like it and simply want to bitch about it - leave. If you don't like it and want to state a rational reason why, then by all means do so. So far, all you have done is whine and cry and carry on about how mean we are. You don't know any of us, but you made an assumption, got your panties in a twist about it and came here to spout off about it.

riverwind wrote:
The entire purpose of this website is to ridicule religion and especially Christianity and you are surprised that someone wants to examine your own irrational beliefs in more detail?

Oh no. Your behavior does not surprise me in the least. In fact it is quite typical.

riverwind wrote:
This website seems to want to make me think. Well, now I want its creators and participants to do a little more thinking.

As in another thread where I've posted..."war begets war". The premise of this site is negative. This site and what it espouses will only bring negativity back to it.

And again - if you don't like it too bad. None of us really give a damn whether you like it or not. I don't like Jehovah's witnesses coming around and knocking on my door, but they do it anyway. I don't like the First Baptist Church sending me information in the mail to join their flock, but they do it anyway.

riverwind wrote:
jce wrote:
Feeling left out of the "cool kids" group? Awww...here is a thought: Why don't you calm yourself down and post a real topic for discussion and see how it goes before you decide to judge us? Hmmmmm?

Judge? I'll throw in criticize too. You mean like this website and many participants do to my faith?

One more time - what gives you the right to come here and tell the owners of this site that they have to conform to your way of thinking?

 

riverwind wrote:
"Cool kids". That's certainly how I perceive this particular website. Perhaps it is a misperception, but what I see is a majority who are between their teens and 30s. It's certainly "cool" to rebel against societies norms, the very norms atheists should follow if they are to have any sort of non-anarchic existence.

You are right - it is a misconception. I am well outside of that age group. There are many others outside that age group as well.

riverwind wrote:
I don't think the "cool kids" know how to handle adult arguments. They seem rather flustered that intelligent and honest theists exist in the world. When they can't handle them, they seem to want them to go away.

You haven't presented an adult argument. In fact you remind me a lot of the arguments my children used to present when they were about five.

There are intelligent, honest theists that come here and post all of the time and I enjoy debating them and discussing issues with them. If you would like to take a bit more time and start reading threads instead of flapping your piehole you would already know that.


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Well, well, we have

Well, well, we have ourselves an arrogant theist here.  I think we should stop our defense and allow him to teach us all of the errors of our ways.  Clearly, this aged wisdom would be of benefit to us all. 

Now that you have managed to insult us thoroughly, be assured that you will heard with as much zeal as you deserve. 

By the bye, I know it is the Christian way to smile and stab a person in the back, but putting a smiley emoticon after an abusive statement makes it no less abusive. 

I will give you an example.  Imagine for a moment that I am speaking to you. "I fucked your wife in the ass.  She begged for it, and then, told me about how she have never orgasmed with you.  She then went on to say that she didn't believe in that limpdick Jesus either. Wink"

See?  That doesn't make it any better.  So, knock that off.  Also, that comment would be better placed on the "fucked your wife in the ass" forum instead of the theist v. atheist forum.

 

[Ed: removed unnecessary vulgarities]

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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darth_josh

darth_josh wrote:

Riverwind,

Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought. This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times.

 

You can be a Theist and still regect religious dogma. That's what I do. I think for myself. If I find a flaw in my beliefs, I change them. I stay as close to the scientific method as I can with my beliefs. I must admit testing them isn't easy, but I certainly have some justification. In the event that I can be proven wrong, I would change my beliefs, and thank the one who changed my mind for moving me closer to the truth.

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Riverwind

Riverwind wrote:

snip...

  The premise of this site is negative.  

 

snip... 

How is it negative? Maybe personally negative to you, but not to me. This is a place for debate, rational thinking and meeting others who regard proof above 'faith'.

 

 

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts


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Riverwind wrote:

Riverwind wrote:
Yes. What is truth for an athiest? Is there any such thing? Everyone has faith in something (yes, I know atheists scoff at this but they also have many irrational beliefs and ideas).

I don't come to find things true by faith, but I don't see what that has to do with the idea of truth. If everyone has faith how do you tell which faith is better?

Quote:
Regardless, what you actually seem to be criticizing is a "blind faith". I think that people of religion do more than you think they do. They hear of ancient traditions from people they trust. They see truth in the words of those traditions and in the world around them.

Do you mean children are brought up to think something is true?

Quote:
They see the meaninglessness of life without God, just as Solomon the first existentialist philosophy. Their faith is not quite as "blind" as some would like to portray it. There is "data" the encourages them in that decision to have faith.

Present it.

Quote:
This is not far afield from what many do with respect to evolution. They take ancient data and recent observations and extrapolate something bigger that they must believe on faith and that ancient data because they can't "macroevolution". It is by chosen faith in their interpretation of the data. That's ok with me. I also happen to believe in evolution, yes, even as a Christian.

Is that how you see science working? That makes reality real solid for you doesn't it...

Quote:
It sounds confusing because people don't choose to believe in things they don't think are true.... If you don't think religion is "true", then you can't believe in it and being intellectually honest.

So you can't choose what you think is isn't true?

Quote:
However, there are many very intelligent people, regardless of bogus atheist statistics, that are also people of religion...and for good reasons.

And there are many very intelligent people who aren't a part of religion. Do you think saying X theist is smart is a good argument?


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Froggy618157725

Froggy618157725 wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Riverwind,

Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought. This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times.

 

You can be a Theist and still regect religious dogma. That's what I do. I think for myself. If I find a flaw in my beliefs, I change them. I stay as close to the scientific method as I can with my beliefs. I must admit testing them isn't easy, but I certainly have some justification. In the event that I can be proven wrong, I would change my beliefs, and thank the one who changed my mind for moving me closer to the truth.

I'll ask and we'll answer 3 questions and we'll determine who has freethought between the two of us. Sound fair?

#1 Who made the universe?

#2 What is our purpose?

#3 When I die, what will happen and how should I plan ahead for it?

 

My answers:

#1 Did it have to be made? If so then I don't know. Let's find out.

#2 Is there a purpose? If so then let's confirm it.

#3 I don't know, but I'm not going to let that affect me since I have so many other things to occupy my time and existence.

 

Now, we just need your answers to continue the conversation. 

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darth_josh

darth_josh wrote:
Froggy618157725 wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Riverwind,

Religious dogma attached to theism prevents freethought. This is intertwined with the 'faith' aspect and has been reasoned elsewhere on the site many different times.

 

You can be a Theist and still regect religious dogma. That's what I do. I think for myself. If I find a flaw in my beliefs, I change them. I stay as close to the scientific method as I can with my beliefs. I must admit testing them isn't easy, but I certainly have some justification. In the event that I can be proven wrong, I would change my beliefs, and thank the one who changed my mind for moving me closer to the truth.

I'll ask and we'll answer 3 questions and we'll determine who has freethought between the two of us. Sound fair?

#1 Who made the universe?

#2 What is our purpose?

#3 When I die, what will happen and how should I plan ahead for it?

 

My answers:

#1 Did it have to be made? If so then I don't know. Let's find out.

#2 Is there a purpose? If so then let's confirm it.

#3 I don't know, but I'm not going to let that affect me since I have so many other things to occupy my time and existence.

 

Now, we just need your answers to continue the conversation.

1. I find how more interesting. To 'who', I'd answer G_d, but my definition for G_d is very broad. My main reasons for believing in G_d come from personal experience. Over the past decade, I've been given very strong reasons to think that G_d exists, including something that was rather direct. Of course, that made me question my sanity, but because of the nature of the reasons, craziness would not suffice. In addition, the strange experiences have seemingly responded to my doubts, providing cases that explicitly demonstrate flaws in my own reasoning. I believe in a personal G_d for what I think is the only valid reason to do so. It's hard to not believe in something that you're losing a battle of wit to Eye-wink

2. No clue. For all I know, the purpose could be to find a purpose. Part of it, anyways Eye-wink

3. I don't know. I'm not even sure if there's any real difference between you and I other than our experience, or, if there is anything more to us than experience. Planning on what you'll do when you die is silly. People should be more concerned with what they'll do when they're living. That's one of my main complaints about Christianity. There's such a focus on the afterlife. I've been assured by a smart Christian friend that there's more to it than that, but I guess the average Christian doesn't bother to get much further than the candy at the door...

I'm Jewish, and have remained Jewish because I've found that many of my ideas of how things should work are teachings of Judaism. I don't blindly accept any of it. I agree with the focus on actions and deeds. The afterlife is barely mentioned at all.

On a more personal level, I believe that if I die before a certain event, that there will be an afterlife of some kind. That's a wild guess, based on a certain dream involving the future that has verified it's validity on about 3 seperate levels so far, with a major event that has yet to occur. If you want details on that, check my "Why I Believe" topic in Atheists vs Theists. Regardless of the supposed deity behind it, the whole thing has really made me question the structure if the universe.

 

Needless to say, I keep most of that stuff out of my general conversations Eye-wink I'm still in the process of figuring it out, and it's still in the process of growing.

I also don't expect random people on the internet to believe it, and would be very disappointed if anyone did without questioning. I'm trying to go about the whole thing as rationally as I can, and other perspectives can always help.

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This thread strikes me a bit

This thread strikes me a bit like if I were trying to lobby my way into a "Christians Only" board by claiming it's fine because I own a bible and a plastic jesus.  (or trying to get into an atheist area, because you are "a theist&quotEye-wink
Talking and thinking about anything is not the same as the term "freethinker," which pariahjane spelled out pretty clearly is more specifically defined as someone who is not inhibited by dogma.  
If you are a Christian, you by definition (at the baseline) believe that Jesus saved believers by dying and rising from the dead.  (and that he was a man/god who walked the earth)
That's the seed of Christianity... Even with all the different flavors of Christians, at the most basic level... you believe in at least two dogmata: A man was also a god and this man was able to resurrect himself, negating your "sin" if you believe. 
Since these things are accepted as your ticket to ride on the Christian bandwagon, you have too many dogmatic beliefs to be part of the freethought set.


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Froggy618157725 wrote: 1.

Froggy618157725 wrote:

1. I find how more interesting. To 'who', I'd answer G_d, but my definition for G_d is very broad. My main reasons for believing in G_d come from personal experience. Over the past decade, I've been given very strong reasons to think that G_d exists, including something that was rather direct. Of course, that made me question my sanity, but because of the nature of the reasons, craziness would not suffice. In addition, the strange experiences have seemingly responded to my doubts, providing cases that explicitly demonstrate flaws in my own reasoning. I believe in a personal G_d for what I think is the only valid reason to do so. It's hard to not believe in something that you're losing a battle of wit to Eye-wink

GOD, God, god, Jehovah, Yahweh, I am, Allah, etc.

I think this answers part of the dogma question. Don't you?

Quote:
2. No clue. For all I know, the purpose could be to find a purpose. Part of it, anyways Eye-wink

Good answer for a wannabe freethinker.

Quote:
3. I don't know. I'm not even sure if there's any real difference between you and I other than our experience, or, if there is anything more to us than experience. Planning on what you'll do when you die is silly. People should be more concerned with what they'll do when they're living. That's one of my main complaints about Christianity. There's such a focus on the afterlife. I've been assured by a smart Christian friend that there's more to it than that, but I guess the average Christian doesn't bother to get much further than the candy at the door...

I'm Jewish, and have remained Jewish because I've found that many of my ideas of how things should work are teachings of Judaism. I don't blindly accept any of it. I agree with the focus on actions and deeds. The afterlife is barely mentioned at all.

The last statement labels you. Sorry.

Quote:
On a more personal level, I believe that if I die before a certain event, that there will be an afterlife of some kind. That's a wild guess, based on a certain dream involving the future that has verified it's validity on about 3 seperate levels so far, with a major event that has yet to occur. If you want details on that, check my "Why I Believe" topic in Atheists vs Theists. Regardless of the supposed deity behind it, the whole thing has really made me question the structure if the universe.

However, it appears those questions seem to be based upon assuming other things to be true.

 

Quote:
Needless to say, I keep most of that stuff out of my general conversations Eye-wink I'm still in the process of figuring it out, and it's still in the process of growing.

I understand. I have to keep some things out of general conversations as a matter of life and I'm still questioning.

Quote:
I also don't expect random people on the internet to believe it, and would be very disappointed if anyone did without questioning. I'm trying to go about the whole thing as rationally as I can, and other perspectives can always help.

Likewise. Unfortunately, we weren't asking anyone else to believe anything. We were more concerned with what and why you believe whereas I hold to no particular beliefs while remaining open to all others.

 

I was really hoping that you might be the one case that challenged the freethinking 'barrier' with regard to theism.

Please understand. I don't doubt your experiences. My further question on this matter would be:

Did you stop looking for other causes of those experiences?

 

Next little question:

While I accept that there may be a god(of some sorts), Do you accept that there may not be a god?

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i believe the "Freethinkers

i believe the "Freethinkers Anonymous" forum's purpose is perfectly demonstrated by this very thread. it's the one place on this board where atheists don't have to put up with this kind of ridiculous whining..

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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Riverwind, don't be such a

Riverwind, don't be such a bitch man.  This is a privately owned forum, so they can prevent anyone they want from posting on the entire board for any or no reason at all.  Like it was said earlier, many Christian boards are only about 50% tolerant of non-Christians, sometimes less.  There's only one forum that they ask us to stay out of, and about 15 more that we're free to post in.  I don't see why you're making such a stink. 


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darth_josh

darth_josh wrote:
Froggy618157725 wrote:

1. I find how more interesting. To 'who', I'd answer G_d, but my definition for G_d is very broad. My main reasons for believing in G_d come from personal experience. Over the past decade, I've been given very strong reasons to think that G_d exists, including something that was rather direct. Of course, that made me question my sanity, but because of the nature of the reasons, craziness would not suffice. In addition, the strange experiences have seemingly responded to my doubts, providing cases that explicitly demonstrate flaws in my own reasoning. I believe in a personal G_d for what I think is the only valid reason to do so. It's hard to not believe in something that you're losing a battle of wit to Eye-wink

GOD, God, god, Jehovah, Yahweh, I am, Allah, etc.

I think this answers part of the dogma question. Don't you?

Well, I've been in contact with an entity that, quite literally, spelled it out for me. Certainly with several references to parts of this dogma, it'd make sense for me to know more. It doesn't validate it, but it's a sure way to grab my attention. 

Quote:
 

Quote:
2. No clue. For all I know, the purpose could be to find a purpose. Part of it, anyways Eye-wink

Good answer for a wannabe freethinker.

An answer that works the same, both ways. I certainly try... 

Quote:
 

Quote:
3. I don't know. I'm not even sure if there's any real difference between you and I other than our experience, or, if there is anything more to us than experience. Planning on what you'll do when you die is silly. People should be more concerned with what they'll do when they're living. That's one of my main complaints about Christianity. There's such a focus on the afterlife. I've been assured by a smart Christian friend that there's more to it than that, but I guess the average Christian doesn't bother to get much further than the candy at the door...

I'm Jewish, and have remained Jewish because I've found that many of my ideas of how things should work are teachings of Judaism. I don't blindly accept any of it. I agree with the focus on actions and deeds. The afterlife is barely mentioned at all.

The last statement labels you. Sorry.

Knowing the dogma doesn't say anything about my belief in it. I like the lack of preoccupation with the afterlife Judaism has. What's wrong with that? 

Quote:
 

Quote:
On a more personal level, I believe that if I die before a certain event, that there will be an afterlife of some kind. That's a wild guess, based on a certain dream involving the future that has verified it's validity on about 3 seperate levels so far, with a major event that has yet to occur. If you want details on that, check my "Why I Believe" topic in Atheists vs Theists. Regardless of the supposed deity behind it, the whole thing has really made me question the structure if the universe.

However, it appears those questions seem to be based upon assuming other things to be true.

 

Assuming those things to be true is to assume that my senses have any level of reliability, and since I try to get as much confirmation of these events as possible, I'm fairly confident that's the case. 

Quote:
 

Quote:
Needless to say, I keep most of that stuff out of my general conversations Eye-wink I'm still in the process of figuring it out, and it's still in the process of growing.

I understand. I have to keep some things out of general conversations as a matter of life and I'm still questioning.

Smiling

Quote:

Quote:
I also don't expect random people on the internet to believe it, and would be very disappointed if anyone did without questioning. I'm trying to go about the whole thing as rationally as I can, and other perspectives can always help.

Likewise. Unfortunately, we weren't asking anyone else to believe anything. We were more concerned with what and why you believe whereas I hold to no particular beliefs while remaining open to all others.

 

I was really hoping that you might be the one case that challenged the freethinking 'barrier' with regard to theism.

Please understand. I don't doubt your experiences. My further question on this matter would be:

Did you stop looking for other causes of those experiences?

 

Of course not. I've been trying to think up as many thoughts as I can. The alternative I've given more thought would be some sort of universal subconscious. That would only be a partial answer, but it would help to explain a fair chunk of it. Craziness would hardly explain anything, and when I began to think that might be it, the string of coincidences and strange experiences seemed to change in focus to exactly the sort of stuff I needed to convince me otherwise. The range of logical and plausible possibilities has been effectively shrunk. There's still a lot of wiggle room, though.

Quote:
 

Next little question:

While I accept that there may be a god(of some sorts), Do you accept that there may not be a god?

I've forced myself to hold that thought there. Appearances can be deceiving. I wouldn't be surprised if most people thought things were actually solid. I'm scared by it a little, because if it's true, then my future's going to get interesting...

 

To say my thoughts aren't effected by dogma at all would be silly. I like to try to keep in mind where my beliefs come from, and growing up in a mostly Christian society, and raised Jewish, of course some of my beliefs come from that. Understanding where your beliefs come from makes it a lot easier to decide if they make sense.

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See. Now imagine how free

See. Now imagine how free your thought would be if you rejected those things as 'beliefs' and analyzing them as human concepts.

There should always be 'wiggle room' but there is a huge difference between imagining god(s) and believing that one(or more) HAS to exist. 

I was also thinking of a more natural cause for your experiences. 

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