Honest question for Theists (Moved from Rational Response Squad Radio Show forum)

AModestProposal
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Honest question for Theists (Moved from Rational Response Squad Radio Show forum)

Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but I don't understand why anyone who believes that death brings one to paradise would react to death the same way as someone like myself you thinks an afterlife of any kind is unlikely.


If death just brings you closer to god and is so great you look forward to it, and if life is but a joke, a big waiting room before god is ready to see you: Is Jesus' dying for humanity such a sacrifice? -Why go to a hospital when you're sick? -Why morn the dead & view events like 9/11 as tragic? -Why would murder be wrong if you're just bringing people to god faster? -If you're Catholic, there's no more Limbo, so then people are saved by default, so all they can do while alive is risk screwing it up. So wouldn't abortion be a great way to ensure paradise for your children? -In fact, wouldn't a great person then be someone who risks their own soul to kill babies to ensure they can't ruin their guaranteed spot in heaven before they risk screwing it up?

 


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I just wanted to push this

I just wanted to push this back to the top because I really would like to hear some answers. I got one from elsewhere, which I feel is significantly lacking. I'll repost it here followed by my response. Keep in mind that the responder is also responding to other comments I made:

 His comments:

There is more to life than being born and living a happy life and then dieing. Jesus' sacrifice was the sacrifice that can forgive my sins and your sins. He didn't just did but he took beating after beating and then went to the cross. His flesh was torn and His blood was spilled for you and me. Why not go to a hospital when you're sick? We morn for those we are going to miss. Sometimes we know that they are in a better place and sometimes we don't know. Was 9/11 not tragic? It was! God has given people free will. You can sin time and time again but God will still be wait for you to come back to Him. I know Jesus died for me because I'm alive. Jesus died for everyone. His sacrifice was for all. So that all who believe in Him and turn from there ways may have life. Superman??? Lets not go there!! Next questions... Killing is wrong first because that's one of the ten commandments. Second is, we are called to love. We don't kill other Christians just so that they can get to heaven faster. We reach others so that they may believe. I'm not Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, or anything else. I am just Christian. No I don't believe that abortion would be a great way to ensure paradise for children. They didn't get a chance at life. I believe their is a lack of self-control. You wouldn't be risking your soul if you were killing babies. Jesus died for us because He knew that we were going to mess up.

 

My response:

If it's about Jesus' torture and not his death, then why don't people say Jesus was tortured for you sins and then rewarded with death? But more to the point, if this story were true, why would such torture be necessary? God is said to be the one responsible for the natural laws, so why wouldn't God simply forgive humanity without torturing his son/himself? Or why set up the initial conditions for man to sin in the first place? Why did God need to commit suicide to forgive humanity for crimes he invented, knowing humanity would break them? And why did God supposedly get so pissed off about misbehaving children and people working on the Sabbath, enough to order their deaths, and then change his mind and change the rules to ones that aren't so barbarous? Why would a benevolent God demand such monstrous acts in the first place? If you expect to be reunited with loved ones again, why would you act much sadder when they die than if you were simply moving away and not expecting to see them for a few years? I believe an afterlife is unlikely and and I won't see lived ones again after they die. That's why I react worse to death than simply if I wasn't going to see them for awhile.

The fact that you're alive doesn't necessitate the existence of magical beings, and it definitely doesn't necessitate the existence of this one particular mythical figure. I used Superman for my argument for the very reason that it's absurd. No rational person would actually believe this literary character with supernatural powers exists, and yet there is no greater evidence to support your literary character with supernatural powers than there is for Superman. In fact, the Superman character was created by two Jews who intentionally incorporated Biblical themes. (Superman's origin story directly parallels that of Moses and Superman's often be written as a Messianic figure similar to Jesus). The only thing that makes Jesus sound less absurd to you is because you've been conditioned to do so, not because Jesus is any less absurd than Superman.

As for why you don't kill, is the fact that it's written down in the 10 commandments really the first reason why you don't kill people? Really? My point, again, was not to advocate killing people but to point out the inherent contradiction of viewing death as a positive thing, yet behaving, for all intents and purposes, like it's a negative thing. You still haven't satisfactorily answered this paradox. Hypothetically, why don't Christians kill other Christians just so that they can get to heaven faster? If the only reason is it violates the 10 commandments, is that really the most moral reason? According to this supposed system, it seems like you'd be doing people a favor.

Regarding your position on abortion, you say "they didn't get a chance at life", but you don't seem to think very highly of life. My waiting room analogy seems apt to your viewpoint. Nobody likes sitting in a waiting room. But what do you mean by "You wouldn't be risking your soul if you were killing babies. Jesus died for us because He knew that we were going to mess up." ? Do you mean a baby killer could still go to heaven?

I think this is what you meant, because if your interpretation of god is anything like that of Ray Comfort's, then once you've been "saved," you have a get out of Hell free pass, where hypothetically you could be Hitler and still get into heaven, while Hitler's Jewish victims would still wind up in Hell. For all the absurd arguments I hear that try to show atheists live in a morally-free zone or have flexible morals that can change on a whim and that's not absolute, it seems far more effective and just than this Christian view of morality. 


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bump These are good

bump

These are good questions.  If you ask me, the obvious answer is that the theology of heaven/hell and "being saved" is logically bankrupt, and abortion is the most sensible answer, but theists have to make acrobatic twists of logic to avoid that conclusion, lest they appear insane.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Watcher
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I'm an atheist but I was

I'm an atheist but I was raised Southern Baptist and did not finally lose the theism fully until I was 30.  So I can give some possible insight into what some christians would respond to this.

The pain that the biblical character of Jesus went through was a lot more that just getting nailed up on the cross.  Supposedly the night before in a garden he felt all the sins that humanity ever had and ever will commit.  Apparently sin is a painful thing for a god to experience.  So that was a lot of painful sin he went through crouched behind the flowers.  On top of that he had to be whipped with a cat-o-nine-tails with sharp glass and metal and gets all ripped up.  The romans mock him, shove a thorny crown on his head to mock him, kick him around.  Then nail him up and play dice why they wait for him to kick the bucket.  That's some serious shit to go through.  So it's not that he died really that's the sacrifice.  It's all the pain, humilitation, and blood spilt that he didn't have to do...cause he was god and all...but he did cause he loved his little creation of little evil monkey-men.  Us. 

Why would a christian take care of their health?  Because they are supposed to spread the "good word".  Hard to do when you're dead. 

9/11 would be viewed as tragic because the christians that died could have led others to christ and the non-christians might have been saved if they had gotten to live longer.

Murder, is wrong for both the two reasons just listed in addition to the commandment thingie.

Killing young children would ensure them to heaven.  You're dead-on correct.  But then they couldn't be soldiers of christ down here to save me and you.  I guess we'll just have to burn because somebody aborted the person who would eventually saved our souls by showing us the error of our ways.

An abortion doctor would be risking his soul depending on what faith he was.  Southern Baptists believe in "once saved always saved" so they wouldn't be.  Catholics would be endangering their souls if they didn't confess before they died but I don't think a religious doctor would be an abortion doctor.  Wouldn't make sense.  Unless he just paid lip service to his religion.

That's what I would have basically said back when I used to believe.  Hope that helps some.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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That's pretty much what I

That's pretty much what I expected to see as responses.  I was a theist, myself, and that's the kind of thing I would say.

I won't bother poking holes in all of them until a theist actually says them and means it.   Give them a false sense of hope that one of them might hold up...

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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i will try to answer

i will try to answer these.  i don't pretend to know what the answers are but i'll offer my opinion;

 yes, i feel Jesus dying for us was a sacrifice because He lowered Himself and took the form of a man and died.  at anytime He could have stopped us but He choose not to.

i go to the hospital because we have intelligence and the ability to discover medicines to help cure diseases.  if i get sick with the flu or something non-lethal then i usually wait it out.

i morn the deaths of other people because it was a tragic thing that happened.  a lot of people's lives where effected beyond the people that died.  parents, husbands and wives where lost and that is a tragic thing indead.

i feel murder is wrong because everyone has their own life and goals to accomplish.  it is not my place to make judgments on when they should die.

 i'm not catholic and can't even think of a way to defend their beliefs.  i know some good people in the catholic church and think it has had it purpose but i do not agree with their practices.

i don't agree with abortion.  i think everyone has to live with their own convictions and i have no right to tell them what to do or if it is wrong or not.  my main concern with abortion is that it allows teens to be careless, get pregnant, flush the baby out and do it again... likewise i also agree that it would be a bad thing to become a single teen mother.  i think there are other ways to solve this issue other than to end abortion.

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.


wavefreak
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The problem isn't the

The problem isn't the answers. It's the questions themselves. They are all based on the assumption that there is no connection between the way you live this life and the outcome of the next. I am not aware of any Christian theology that supports this.


jmm
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my fear of death stems from

my fear of death stems from the same things that would make an atheist afraid of dying - uncertainty, loss of familiarity, fear of the death process itself, and fear of the unknown, to name a few.  no one knows for sure that there is an afterlife, some just admit that more freely than others. 


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No afterlife for me. But in

No afterlife for me.

But in terms of the Christian thought about murdering people and whatnot, I'm pretty sure that they believe that murdering someone is taking away God's decision to kill them whenever he wants to. You see, they think that God owns us all, and can do with us as he sees fit. The reason why murder would be wrong is the same as why suicide would be wrong: it takes away God's right to kill. If God wants someone dead, then he'll make sure he gets to job done, so there's also no reason to avoid hospital treatment.