What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

Dylan
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What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

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The leap goes from "If there is design, there must be a designer." to "That designer must be God" without a lot of evidence or depth.

To be precise, this is a concession to prove just how bad the argument from design is!

First, it can't be proven that there is a designer.

However, if we grant that there is, and that's absolutely not necessary, then it still doesn't point to any designer in particular, and we have no reason to think that we can have any knowledge of that designer, since we can have no empirical data from before the big bang, and creation had to be initiated before the big bang.

 

Thanks Hamby, I was just going from most of the arguments I've read here

You've put it better than I could have. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Textom wrote: Dylan

Textom wrote:

Dylan wrote:
So, when theists use this, they only imply that it's designed because it merely looks designed? They don't go any farther in depth?

 But no one has yet been able to find an actual example of anything "irreducably complex" that stands up to real scrutiny, so that argument has washed out too.

Well, actually, many use cilia as an example of something irreducably complex. However, the only problem with this theory is the fact that future scientific discoveries could find out how exactly the cilia came to be.

 And I know that even if I can convince you that there has to be a God, I still have to go the other long road in explaining why it's the Christian God.

And now that I know what you don't want me to talk about, I have two things in mind. You probably have heard of them, you've definitely heard of one, but I don't know if it's ever been fully resolved due to the fact of some of the things I've seen people say on here.


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Dylan wrote: Textom

Dylan wrote:
Textom wrote:

Dylan wrote:
So, when theists use this, they only imply that it's designed because it merely looks designed? They don't go any farther in depth?

But no one has yet been able to find an actual example of anything "irreducably complex" that stands up to real scrutiny, so that argument has washed out too.

Well, actually, many use cilia as an example of something irreducably complex. However, the only problem with this theory is the fact that future scientific discoveries could find out how exactly the cilia came to be.

And I know that even if I can convince you that there has to be a God, I still have to go the other long road in explaining why it's the Christian God.

And now that I know what you don't want me to talk about, I have two things in mind. You probably have heard of them, you've definitely heard of one, but I don't know if it's ever been fully resolved due to the fact of some of the things I've seen people say on here.

Link - http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadflyLink -

Got to love talkorigins


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    What you have to

    What you have to know is that in the end, what those of religious/god beliefs claim as evidence of god is and usually is found to be false, based on false claims or ignorance. The irreducible claims of Michael Behe has been shown to be both false and laughable (when a judicial court judge tosses your ass out because he knows your ignorant, i think it's time to call it quits). No "theory" of design has stood up to scientific testing at all. The thing one must remember that when one claims that it must be god it must be shown with actual evidence that it is that way. To say look science can't explain it, therefore there it is god, is not evidnece but intellectual dishonesty.

    Both religion and science thrive on ignorace. The difference is that science looks to dispell that ignorance and learn, while religion looks to keep you ignorant.


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Dylan, I have a

Dylan, I have a question.

What is your brain barrier? Why can't you understand the bible is mythology just as the Greeks and Norsemen had theirs? Why can't you understand that everything you attribute to 'god' has a more rational natural explanation? 


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Dylan, please don't use

I could not tell if the OP was suggesting Design as an argument/evidence for God, but if he was or is going to, I'll preempt it. Dylan, if it is not your intention to invoke Design, then I apologize.

 {Again, I don't expect you to read all these, I am just suggesting you may want to think twice about using design]

As a molecular biologist, I am versed in the various crackpot theories of ID, and I have not once been impressed by their hypothesis (Cannot call it theory as in science a theory requires experimentation backing it before it can recieve that title)

Firstly, the suggestions of ID regarding all the "parts" being assembled by God can actually be refuted, as shown by me here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/proteomics_and_its_applications_for_evolutionary_mechanisms_indisputable_proof_of_evolution_and_...

Second, Irreducible complexity is, well, pathetic. An example of refuting one of Behe's arguments is given by me here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/blood_clotting_and_evolution_a_critique_of_one_of_behes_four_arguments_of_irreducible_complexity

Third, Irreducibly complex systems, even if they did exist (for which there is no evidence) can be arrived at by evolutionary mechanisms, a feat which is shown by the very impressive results of GA panel experiments.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genalg/genalg.html

Fourth, as shown above, "appears designed" is invalid, because it implies the mechanism in question is too complex or too clever to have been arrived at by natural selection. But any computational biologist, geneticist, or evolutionary biologist will tell you that natural selection is actually a better method of finding solutions to complex problems, as demonstrated by the above link.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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xamination wrote: For me,

xamination wrote:
For me, its not that I can't, its that I don't.

 

I want to simply thank you for your honesty.  I read through each post and by far yours is the most honest.  Out of every atheist that has posted on this website, you have clearly stated why you do not believe.  Out of all the atheists that have attempted explain passages in the Bible, you have done it quite accurately. 

Romans 1:18 - 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Once again we see the absolute truthfulness of God's word.  It is not that atheists cannot believe in God - They simply choose not to.  You choose to suppress the truth.  I am not surprised nor am I angry about this.  I already knew this to be a fact because God's word tells us this.  I have read all of your "intellectual" responses to the question and God's word also addresses this:

Romans 1:22-23 - 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

WHAT IMAGE HAVE YOU DECIDED TO WORSHIP???  For many of you, it is simply your "self proclaimed intellect." 

xamination, again . . . thank you for your honesty. 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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LOL. What is your argument?

LOL. What is your argument? I place it somewhere between an argument from emotion, an argument from dire consequences, and a dash of anti-intellectualism. If you can only respond to arguments by quoting the Bible, you might as well not even bother to discuss, since no-one will isten to you. As astonishing a suggestion as this may be to you, could you try having an original thought? Otherwise, don't post.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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deludedgod wrote: I could

deludedgod wrote:

I could not tell if the OP was suggesting Design as an argument/evidence for God, but if he was or is going to, I'll preempt it. Dylan, if it is not your intention to invoke Design, then I apologize.

 {Again, I don't expect you to read all these, I am just suggesting you may want to think twice about using design]

As a molecular biologist, I am versed in the various crackpot theories of ID, and I have not once been impressed by their hypothesis (Cannot call it theory as in science a theory requires experimentation backing it before it can recieve that title)

Firstly, the suggestions of ID regarding all the "parts" being assembled by God can actually be refuted, as shown by me here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/proteomics_and_its_applications_for_evolutionary_mechanisms_indisputable_proof_of_evolution_and_...

Second, Irreducible complexity is, well, pathetic. An example of refuting one of Behe's arguments is given by me here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/blood_clotting_and_evolution_a_critique_of_one_of_behes_four_arguments_of_irreducible_complexity

Third, Irreducibly complex systems, even if they did exist (for which there is no evidence) can be arrived at by evolutionary mechanisms, a feat which is shown by the very impressive results of GA panel experiments.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genalg/genalg.html

Fourth, as shown above, "appears designed" is invalid, because it implies the mechanism in question is too complex or too clever to have been arrived at by natural selection. But any computational biologist, geneticist, or evolutionary biologist will tell you that natural selection is actually a better method of finding solutions to complex problems, as demonstrated by the above link.

 

 

Maybe I should have said earlier that I don't like Behe's argument any more than you do. Ha ha.

 


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LOL, you had me worried for

LOL, you had me worried for a moment.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Dylan
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BGH wrote: Dylan, I have a

BGH wrote:

Dylan, I have a question.

What is your brain barrier? Why can't you understand the bible is mythology just as the Greeks and Norsemen had theirs? Why can't you understand that everything you attribute to 'god' has a more rational natural explanation? 

Because I have come to a different conclusion from my search for the truth.


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deludedgod wrote: LOL, you

deludedgod wrote:
LOL, you had me worried for a moment.

I didn't know you were a molecular biologist. That's quite an accomplishment.


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Dylan wrote: BGH

Dylan wrote:
BGH wrote:

Dylan, I have a question.

What is your brain barrier? Why can't you understand the bible is mythology just as the Greeks and Norsemen had theirs? Why can't you understand that everything you attribute to 'god' has a more rational natural explanation?

Because I have come to a different conclusion from my search for the truth.

Ahhhh, so you see...... ?

Atheists do not have a heart barrier, rather they have come to a different conclusion in their search for the truth. Making an assertation that atheists "heart barrier" in some way because they do not believe, is equal to making an assertation that theists have a "brain barrier".

Your post was not very well thought out and will not make many friends here.


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On the first page of this

On the first page of this thread, you will see me telling people to ignore the title and focus on the question I made in the first post.


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Dylan wrote: What's Your

Dylan wrote:

What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

Do you see what you asked? You called it a "Heart barrier".

You've actually revealed why you believe.

Now can you tell me why you've "opened your heart" like a barn door to such absurdity?

Can you tell me why you've not questioned, analyzed, or even noticed the irrationality of what was being taught to you? Where you afraid to question the source?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Thank you. TScience is an

Thank you. TScience is an excellent and rewarding career path.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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deludedgod wrote: LOL. What

deludedgod wrote:
LOL. What is your argument? I place it somewhere between an argument from emotion, an argument from dire consequences, and a dash of anti-intellectualism. If you can only respond to arguments by quoting the Bible, you might as well not even bother to discuss, since no-one will isten to you. As astonishing a suggestion as this may be to you, could you try having an original thought? Otherwise, don't post.

I didn't realize that "What's Your "Heart Barrier"? was a molecular biological question.  What makes you more qualified than any other person to answer this?  I simply quoted one of you (an atheist) and thanked him for his honesty.  I wonder . . . what page is it in the Rational Responders playbook is it to simply say theist are anti-intellectuals.  Just like you can give me names of people who are atheists that graduate from the top universities in the world - I could do the same for theists.  It is such a weak argument.  I wonder . . . when did a molecular biologist become an expert in philosophical questions??????  These are two different areas of study. 

Finally, no one will listen?????  Why don't you go and ask some of your other atheists friends if they will listen - they have and they have learned.  Calm down deludedgod - you just might learn something. 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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AiiA wrote: Dylan

AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:

What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

Do you see what you asked? You called it a "Heart barrier".

You've actually revealed why you believe.

Now can you tell me why you've "opened your heart" like a barn door to such absurdity?

Can you tell me why you've not questioned, analyzed, or even noticed the irrationality of what was being taught to you? Where you afraid to question the source?

I have questioned and I have analyzed. Being a Christian doesn't automatically mean you are ignorant of the world around you.


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The reason my brain doesn't

The reason my brain doesn't absorb things like feelings from my heart is because of special epithelial cells called the blood-brain barrier. Molecules larger than about 500 atomic mass units usually can't pass through the barrier, and feelings are usually much larger: incredulity is around 3000-4000 units, depending on what I'm incredulous about, and the desire for a higher being to exist is around 50,000 units. So no matter what I feel in my heart, it would be physically impossible for these things to pass into my brain and become part of my thoughts.

I think that Christianity needs to start scientifically looking into ways to help feelings get past the blood-brain barrier. You might want to find ways to get things like "denial", "incredulity, and "misplaced awe" to be lipid-soluble so they can pass through cell membranes.

Edit: It occurs to me that asking converts to invite Jesus into their heart is going about it the wrong way. Jesus, who we can assume was an average-height Jewish man, would be around 10 to the 28th power atomic mass units, and therefore far too large to be capable of passing through the blood-brain barrier. Therefore, I suggest that Christians stop asking others to invite Jesus into their hearts and instead that they ask others to invite Jesus into their spine, cerebrospinal fluid, or preferably directly into the brain, thus bypassing the barrier entirely.

Edit Part Two: You might want to set up a study analyzing the effectiveness of one's blood-brain barrier as it relates to religious belief. For instance, atheists might have an over-exclusive barrier, filtering out feelings that most people let right into their brains, such as the desire for the universe to care about their lives, while on the other hand, those who are over-incredulous, such as New-Age devotees, Scientologists, and people who read the "Left Behind" series without making fun of it, might have a significantly less effective blood-brain barrier, allowing any feeling that they have to affect their brain.

If such a correlation is found, New Agers and fundamentalists should be warned that they are at a higher risk of infection, and should exercise caution in their daily lives to prevent contracting any infection, such as Staphylococcus or Belief That Jesus Is Coming Real Soon Now, which could spread to their brain.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Dylan wrote: In other

Dylan wrote:
In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

A number of reasons.
First; every god ever presented to me in any fashion is a god I find immoral. I could never follow an immoral god.
Second, no god has ever showed itself or it's super powers to me. All I've ever encountered in my life is perfectly natural stuff. Despite the claims of most every religion suggesting their gods powers are real and affects them.
Third, religions of all flavours seem like nothing more to me than an organized scam. Some of them are more effective than others, but they're all scams.
Finally, I've never needed a god. I resolved any philosophical and/or psychological problems I had with death as a kid. I never needed or had an invisible friend. I was never indoctrinated into a religion, so never had any baggage from one pushing me into belief in the first place. I can't think of other reasons to believe in a god right now or I'd address them as well.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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REVLyle wrote:

REVLyle wrote:

xamination wrote:
For me, its not that I can't, its that I don't.

 

I want to simply thank you for your honesty. I read through each post and by far yours is the most honest. Out of every atheist that has posted on this website, you have clearly stated why you do not believe. Out of all the atheists that have attempted explain passages in the Bible, you have done it quite accurately.

Romans 1:18 - 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Once again we see the absolute truthfulness of God's word. It is not that atheists cannot believe in God - They simply choose not to. You choose to suppress the truth. I am not surprised nor am I angry about this. I already knew this to be a fact because God's word tells us this. I have read all of your "intellectual" responses to the question and God's word also addresses this:

Romans 1:22-23 - 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

WHAT IMAGE HAVE YOU DECIDED TO WORSHIP??? For many of you, it is simply your "self proclaimed intellect."

xamination, again . . . thank you for your honesty.

Lying with Scripture?

The good Christians of the Bush Administration prove Romans 1:18 false - God (if he exists) hasn't punished them but has rewarded them for their acts, which include suppressing the truth. He hasn't rewarded them beyond their dreams of avarice for money and power so many they are feeling God's wrath for not getting more people killed in his name.

As far as Romans 1:22-23,

1. I don't think it's possible to make an image of the intellect

2. I can't exchange what I've never had and since no one has ever had the glory of the immortal God...

I love how Christians claim that "Jesus Christ" is the founder of their religion. Especially when they have to go to Paul of Tarsus to explain it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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REVLyle wrote: I didn't

REVLyle wrote:

I didn't realize that "What's Your "Heart Barrier"? was a molecular biological question. What makes you more qualified than any other person to answer this? I simply quoted one of you (an atheist) and thanked him for his honesty. I wonder . . . what page is it in the Rational Responders playbook is it to simply say theist are anti-intellectuals. Just like you can give me names of people who are atheists that graduate from the top universities in the world - I could do the same for theists. It is such a weak argument. I wonder . . . when did a molecular biologist become an expert in philosophical questions?????? These are two different areas of study.

Finally, no one will listen????? Why don't you go and ask some of your other atheists friends if they will listen - they have and they have learned. Calm down deludedgod - you just might learn something.

Pathetic... You just made an argumentation error. You can't dismiss deludedgod's philosophic arguments with the fact that he's a molecular biologist.

You also straw-manned:

"I wonder . . . what page is it in the Rational Responders playbook is it to simply say theist are anti-intellectuals."

As far as I remember, deludedgod didn't attack against Dylan himself, but he called his ARGUMENT anti-intellectual. Attacking against a person and not hi/her argument is also an argumentation error.

"Just like you can give me names of people who are atheists that graduate from the top universities in the world - I could do the same for theists. It is such a weak argument"

deludedgod didn't say anything about giving names of smart Atheists, and using that to attack Theists. Using authorities to counter-argument is also an argumentation error.

As far as I can tell, he hasn't done a single argumentation error during this thread. The same can't be said about you.

"Calm down deludedgod - you just might learn something."

You, too have much to learn... 

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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Dylan wrote:

Dylan wrote:
AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:

What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

Do you see what you asked? You called it a "Heart barrier".

You've actually revealed why you believe.

Now can you tell me why you've "opened your heart" like a barn door to such absurdity?

Can you tell me why you've not questioned, analyzed, or even noticed the irrationality of what was being taught to you? Where you afraid to question the source?

I have questioned and I have analyzed. Being a Christian doesn't automatically mean you are ignorant of the world around you.

What have you questioned and what were the questions and who did you ask? What method of analysis did you employ?

It is irrelevant whether you are xian or any other creed, you are not devoid of common sense are you? Why have you allowed your reasonability to be overridden by whacko and delirious bullshit? As you develop from birth, you learn practicalities about existence.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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I cannot believe in god

I cannot believe in god anymore than I can believe the sky is green. I have been presented with insufficient evidence, and indeed, evidence to the contrary. While I cannot consider either of these definitive, I will go with what science, reason, and logic have given me.

 Nothing about all my studies of the universe has revealed the necessity of the existence of god, or any evidence for the existence of a god. Similarly, nothing about my studies of philosophy has provided me with a reason to think anything other than that all notions-- God included-- came into existence through the human mind, not the other way around. 

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Explaining the universe by invoking god is like solving an equation by multiplying both sides with infinity. It gives you a trivial solution and wipes away any real information about the original problem.


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REVLyle wrote: Romans 1:18

REVLyle wrote:

Romans 1:18 - 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Once again we see the absolute truthfulness of God's word. It is not that atheists cannot believe in God - They simply choose not to. You choose to suppress the truth. I am not surprised nor am I angry about this. I already knew this to be a fact because God's word tells us this.

I find it interesting that you make a leap from athiests' lack of faith to an active suppression of supposed truth. What is it about your faith that requires feeling persecuted? Isn't life hard enough without inventing problems?

To borrow an analogy from someone: my mom has a yogurt drink that will turn you invisible if you drink it. I wrote a paper describing its effects and collected some stories from people who said they tried the yogurt, turned invisible and had adventures. The snack food industry claims not only that my mom's drink doesn't work (why would they say such a thing? She's so nice, and all those stories from people can't all be wrong.), but they also claim to have some pretzels that allow you to fly after you eat them. They won't sell the pretzels to anyone who also wants to try my mom's yogurt. That's hogwash, though; everyone knows only idiots believe pretzels can make you fly. What would it take for you to want my mom's yogurt drink? It's really good, and being invisible is really cool. I can give you the paper and the stories, if that would help.

Have you ever wondered why it is that at least two of the three "religions of the book" have directions purportedly from god that direct believers to (at the very least) ignore nonbelievers?

 

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AiiA wrote: Dylan

AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:
AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:

What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

Do you see what you asked? You called it a "Heart barrier".

You've actually revealed why you believe.

Now can you tell me why you've "opened your heart" like a barn door to such absurdity?

Can you tell me why you've not questioned, analyzed, or even noticed the irrationality of what was being taught to you? Where you afraid to question the source?

I have questioned and I have analyzed. Being a Christian doesn't automatically mean you are ignorant of the world around you.

What have you questioned and what were the questions and who did you ask? What method of analysis did you employ?

It is irrelevant whether you are xian or any other creed, you are not devoid of common sense are you? Why have you allowed your reasonability to be overridden by whacko and delirious bullshit? As you develop from birth, you learn practicalities about existence.

 

It shouldn't really matter to you who I asked and what I asked. You can only assume that what you call "whacko and delirious bullshit," I have considered and found it not to be whacko and delirious bullshit.


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Dylan wrote: AiiA

Dylan wrote:
AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:
AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:

What's Your "Heart Barrier"?

In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

Do you see what you asked? You called it a "Heart barrier".

You've actually revealed why you believe.

Now can you tell me why you've "opened your heart" like a barn door to such absurdity?

Can you tell me why you've not questioned, analyzed, or even noticed the irrationality of what was being taught to you? Where you afraid to question the source?

I have questioned and I have analyzed. Being a Christian doesn't automatically mean you are ignorant of the world around you.

What have you questioned and what were the questions and who did you ask? What method of analysis did you employ?

It is irrelevant whether you are xian or any other creed, you are not devoid of common sense are you? Why have you allowed your reasonability to be overridden by whacko and delirious bullshit? As you develop from birth, you learn practicalities about existence.

 

It shouldn't really matter to you who I asked and what I asked. You can only assume that what you call "whacko and delirious bullshit," I have considered and found it not to be whacko and delirious bullshit.

If you ask other Christians about Christianity, you're only going to get pro-Christian information. That's one of the reasons why Strobel's books are crap - he only got one side of the story.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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AiiA wrote: Why have you

AiiA wrote:
Why have you allowed your reasonability to be overridden by whacko and delirious bullshit?

I'm tellin' ya, man, it's the blood-brain barrier. Dude just needs better endothelial cells. 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Dylan wrote: It shouldn't

Dylan wrote:
It shouldn't really matter to you who I asked and what I asked. You can only assume that what you call "whacko and delirious bullshit," I have considered and found it not to be whacko and delirious bullshit.
You are asking why I do not believe (the "heart barrier" ), in turn, I'm asking how, who, why the natural mechanisms of questioning reality has been striped from you. But not only is your natural inclination to evaluate reality been taken from you, it is a specified slice of reality - for example you believe in an invisible entity named "god" but you do not believe in an equally preposterous entity named "invisible fire breathing dragon".
How is it that you eliminated this so called barrier to your heart?

Perhaps the problem is that you are too afraid or too lazy or too proud to consider your theistic beliefs more thoroughly and comprehensively?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Larty wrote: REVLyle

Larty wrote:
REVLyle wrote:

I didn't realize that "What's Your "Heart Barrier"? was a molecular biological question. What makes you more qualified than any other person to answer this? I simply quoted one of you (an atheist) and thanked him for his honesty. I wonder . . . what page is it in the Rational Responders playbook is it to simply say theist are anti-intellectuals. Just like you can give me names of people who are atheists that graduate from the top universities in the world - I could do the same for theists. It is such a weak argument. I wonder . . . when did a molecular biologist become an expert in philosophical questions?????? These are two different areas of study.

Finally, no one will listen????? Why don't you go and ask some of your other atheists friends if they will listen - they have and they have learned. Calm down deludedgod - you just might learn something.

Pathetic... You just made an argumentation error. You can't dismiss deludedgod's philosophic arguments with the fact that he's a molecular biologist.

You also straw-manned:

"I wonder . . . what page is it in the Rational Responders playbook is it to simply say theist are anti-intellectuals."

As far as I remember, deludedgod didn't attack against Dylan himself, but he called his ARGUMENT anti-intellectual. Attacking against a person and not hi/her argument is also an argumentation error.

"Just like you can give me names of people who are atheists that graduate from the top universities in the world - I could do the same for theists. It is such a weak argument"

deludedgod didn't say anything about giving names of smart Atheists, and using that to attack Theists. Using authorities to counter-argument is also an argumentation error.

As far as I can tell, he hasn't done a single argumentation error during this thread. The same can't be said about you.

"Calm down deludedgod - you just might learn something."

You, too have much to learn... 

1.  I did not dismiss deludedgod's philosophical view - Unless I am mistaken - he has not even given one.  He has given a scientific opinion as to why he does not believe in God.  I simply do not believe that because he is a biologist - he can simply dismiss mine.

2.  Go back and read the thread.  Who attacked who????  deludedgod attacked me by stating I should not post unless I have an original thought and states that what I have written is either from emotion or dire consequences, and anti-intellectual.  (I believe that makes one of you argumentation errors)  He did not discuss the scripture nor did he discuss the philosophical answer given by xamnination (For me, its not that I can't, it's that I don't.)  I will be waiting to see your post telling him that he had an argumentation error. 

3.  I also did not use authorities to support my view.  The only thing I did was state facts.

A.  Xamination's answer to the question - why don't you believe in God

B.  The Bible's word on that issue - right out of Romans

C.  Thanked Xamination for his honesty.

My point is that simply because he is a molecular biologist doesn't mean that he is also an expert in the field of philosophy and therefore who is he to begin stating what is intellectual and what is not concerning worldviews and beliefs.  Lost of intellectuals adhere to the scriptures as God's word.  The fact that he does not believe in God and the Bible does not make all those who do - anti-intellectuals.  (THAT IS THE STRAW MAN.  SIMPLY SAY THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD ARE ANTI-INTELLECTUALS)  I have several degrees and many years in academia - I do not believe with my heart only.

4.  Deludedgod wrote:  If you can only respond to arguments by quoting the Bible, you might as well not even bother to discuss, since no-one will listen to you.  How absurd is this?  The site is flooded by atheists who misquote scriptures all the time attempting to prove a point, but I cannot use it to make my point????  If that is not a sense of superiority, what is?  By the way, some HAVE listened and changed their view.  Lastly, I was not responding to an argument - I was thanking a person for being honest and showing how scripture completely backed up his answer.

5.  I am learning everyday.  Kind of intellectual isn't it?

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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At this point, I'm really

At this point, I'm really interested in this new evidence you have, Dylan. Frankly, I don't care who you got your beliefs from, or about your brain barrier, or heart barrier.

I suggest that whatever evidence you're going to present is old hat to all of us. We're going to show you that it's old hat, and refute it logically. Then, you're still going to believe.

This, Dylan, is a brain block. Once we have come to some common ground that you have a brain block, it might be worth asking why. But, until you realize that you have a compulsion to believe in irrational concepts, all this speculation is kind of useless.

So, could we go ahead and get this out of the way? Show us your logical reasons for believing in god so that we can show you that they're not logical after all. Then we can talk about brain blocks or heart blocks to your heart's content.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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AiiA wrote: Dylan

AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:
It shouldn't really matter to you who I asked and what I asked. You can only assume that what you call "whacko and delirious bullshit," I have considered and found it not to be whacko and delirious bullshit.
You are asking why I do not believe (the "heart barrier" ), in turn, I'm asking how, who, why the natural mechanisms of questioning reality has been striped from you. But not only is your natural inclination to evaluate reality been taken from you, it is a specified slice of reality - for example you believe in an invisible entity named "god" but you do not believe in an equally preposterous entity named "invisible fire breathing dragon".
How is it that you eliminated this so called barrier to your heart?

Perhaps the problem is that you are too afraid or too lazy or too proud to consider your theistic beliefs more thoroughly and comprehensively?

Can you get the notion out of your head that tells you if somebody is Christian, they haven't looked at all the evidence? That if they looked at it scientifically, they can't possibly be Christian? Because that's a false statement.

 


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Hambydammit wrote: At this

Hambydammit wrote:

At this point, I'm really interested in this new evidence you have, Dylan. Frankly, I don't care who you got your beliefs from, or about your brain barrier, or heart barrier.

I suggest that whatever evidence you're going to present is old hat to all of us. We're going to show you that it's old hat, and refute it logically. Then, you're still going to believe.

This, Dylan, is a brain block. Once we have come to some common ground that you have a brain block, it might be worth asking why. But, until you realize that you have a compulsion to believe in irrational concepts, all this speculation is kind of useless.

So, could we go ahead and get this out of the way? Show us your logical reasons for believing in god so that we can show you that they're not logical after all. Then we can talk about brain blocks or heart blocks to your heart's content.

 

I can assure you that I, open-heartedly (and open-scientifically), will listen to what you have to say.

Just look for my upcoming blog.


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Dylan wrote: AiiA

Dylan wrote:

AiiA wrote:
Dylan wrote:
It shouldn't really matter to you who I asked and what I asked. You can only assume that what you call "whacko and delirious bullshit," I have considered and found it not to be whacko and delirious bullshit.
You are asking why I do not believe (the "heart barrier" ), in turn, I'm asking how, who, why the natural mechanisms of questioning reality has been striped from you. But not only is your natural inclination to evaluate reality been taken from you, it is a specified slice of reality - for example you believe in an invisible entity named "god" but you do not believe in an equally preposterous entity named "invisible fire breathing dragon".
How is it that you eliminated this so called barrier to your heart?

Perhaps the problem is that you are too afraid or too lazy or too proud to consider your theistic beliefs more thoroughly and comprehensively?

Can you get the notion out of your head that tells you if somebody is Christian, they haven't looked at all the evidence?

Hahahaha But that's just IT! What evidence?
Quote:
That if they looked at it scientifically, they can't possibly be Christian? Because that's a false statement.
Caught you. You've never looked at it scientifically. "Opening your heart" is about emotions not science.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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JeremiahSmith wrote: The

JeremiahSmith wrote:

The reason my brain doesn't absorb things like feelings from my heart is because of special epithelial cells called the blood-brain barrier. Molecules larger than about 500 atomic mass units usually can't pass through the barrier, and feelings are usually much larger: incredulity is around 3000-4000 units, depending on what I'm incredulous about, and the desire for a higher being to exist is around 50,000 units. So no matter what I feel in my heart, it would be physically impossible for these things to pass into my brain and become part of my thoughts.

I think that Christianity needs to start scientifically looking into ways to help feelings get past the blood-brain barrier. You might want to find ways to get things like "denial", "incredulity, and "misplaced awe" to be lipid-soluble so they can pass through cell membranes.

Edit: It occurs to me that asking converts to invite Jesus into their heart is going about it the wrong way. Jesus, who we can assume was an average-height Jewish man, would be around 10 to the 28th power atomic mass units, and therefore far too large to be capable of passing through the blood-brain barrier. Therefore, I suggest that Christians stop asking others to invite Jesus into their hearts and instead that they ask others to invite Jesus into their spine, cerebrospinal fluid, or preferably directly into the brain, thus bypassing the barrier entirely.

Edit Part Two: You might want to set up a study analyzing the effectiveness of one's blood-brain barrier as it relates to religious belief. For instance, atheists might have an over-exclusive barrier, filtering out feelings that most people let right into their brains, such as the desire for the universe to care about their lives, while on the other hand, those who are over-incredulous, such as New-Age devotees, Scientologists, and people who read the "Left Behind" series without making fun of it, might have a significantly less effective blood-brain barrier, allowing any feeling that they have to affect their brain.

If such a correlation is found, New Agers and fundamentalists should be warned that they are at a higher risk of infection, and should exercise caution in their daily lives to prevent contracting any infection, such as Staphylococcus or Belief That Jesus Is Coming Real Soon Now, which could spread to their brain.

                                             

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Dylan wrote: Hambydammit

Dylan wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

At this point, I'm really interested in this new evidence you have, Dylan. Frankly, I don't care who you got your beliefs from, or about your brain barrier, or heart barrier.

I suggest that whatever evidence you're going to present is old hat to all of us. We're going to show you that it's old hat, and refute it logically. Then, you're still going to believe.

This, Dylan, is a brain block. Once we have come to some common ground that you have a brain block, it might be worth asking why. But, until you realize that you have a compulsion to believe in irrational concepts, all this speculation is kind of useless.

So, could we go ahead and get this out of the way? Show us your logical reasons for believing in god so that we can show you that they're not logical after all. Then we can talk about brain blocks or heart blocks to your heart's content.

I can assure you that I, open-heartedly (and open-scientifically), will listen to what you have to say.

Just look for my upcoming blog.

Let us know when it's up. Hopefully the act of having to write out these "evidences" you have for the existence the Christian God and god in general will show you that their is no evidence.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


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Dylan wrote: In other

Dylan wrote:
In other words, why can't you believe in a God?

It goes against everything I've ever learned or experienced ever, ever.
We have the same name, you and I.


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Quote: I certainly had no

Quote:
I certainly had no feeling for harmony, and Schoenberg thought that that would make it impossible for me to write music. He said, 'You'll come to a wall you won't be able to get through.' So I said, 'I'll beat my head against that wall. John Cage

YES!!

I have immense respect for both Schoenberg and Cage.  The irony of this quote astounds me.  Schoenberg, who broke through so many theoretical boundaries, and made non-diatonicism into something accessible to the contemporary ear, being a stick in the mud when Cage suggests that even the very concept of harmony was questionable.

I performed one of Cage's prepared piano pieces in college.  Don't bother asking how difficult it was to procure a piano to prepare.  It was an amazing experience, though.  I can't say I ever fully understood the theory of the piece.  My expertise was always in post-romantic applications of diatonicism (Rachmanninof, et al.) but damn, these guys were both amazing!

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I can't understand why

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas.  I'm frightened of the old ones.  ~John Cage


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I could just geek out on

I could just geek out on Cage all day.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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