How exactly is God merciful?

MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
How exactly is God merciful?

How exactly is the God of the Bible merciful when he created hell in the first place? As far as most sane people are concerned, eternal torture is excessive even for Hitler, let alone for everyone. Wouldn't true mercy involve forgiving unconditionally rather than "sacraficing himself to himself in order to save us from rules he created?"

This is a no bullshit zone by the way.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
MattShizzle wrote: How

MattShizzle wrote:

How exactly is the God of the Bible merciful when he created hell in the first place? As far as most sane people are concerned, eternal torture is excessive even for Hitler, let alone for everyone. Wouldn't true mercy involve forgiving unconditionally rather than "sacraficing himself to himself in order to save us from rules he created?"

This is a no bullshit zone by the way.

 

Let's beat this dead horse some more. What is your true intent with this question? You aren't really asking for a conceptualization of mercy that allows for the existence of hell, are you?

 

 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
I actually dig this

I actually dig this question because it's one of the best ones to let theists demonstrate their need for conflation.

It's actually pretty easy to come up with a version of god who creates hell and is merciful.  All he'd need to do is pull a Bush and pardon someone who deserves hell... say, Scooter Libby.  Give him a commuted sentence, let him into heaven.

That would be a merciful god.

Also, a dumb shit, but merciful, nonetheless.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Of course who is evil enough

Of course who is evil enough to deserve eternal torture? (except the Christian God himself for what he did!) Note this isn't the place to debate God's existance - already plenty of threads for that! I don't believe in that shit, but want to demonstrate how irrational this concept is - if a robber demands your money or your life, and you refuse to give him your money - and he doesn't kill you - does that make the robber a good person? Say he kills 99 people who refuse to pay him but lets one go?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
I hear ya. The question

I hear ya.

The question isn't really about whether or not the Abrahamic god is merciful, but what the word merciful means.

When a normal person says someone is merciful, they mean they have a habit of showing leniency.  A merciful court would be one that often gave lesser sentences than those prescribed by the law.

Yet, when you corner a Christian, they'll change the meaning.  If they can find ANY way to say that god showed any leniency, they'll say, "SEE!!!  He is merciful!"  Even though overall, their god is portrayed as anything but merciful.  They're using a single instance to prove a trait, which is, as we all know, conflation, and a logical fallacy.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
So is a better question

So is a better question this: "If god is merciful, why doesn't he show mercy to everyone?"


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
that wouldn't be mercy,

that wouldn't be mercy, though would it?

I may be wrong on this, but if he "pardoned" everyone, then that wouldn't be mercy, it would be policy.

I think the concept of mercy requires justice to be coherent.  Don't you think?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
wavefreak wrote: So is a

wavefreak wrote:
So is a better question this: "If god is merciful, why doesn't he show mercy to everyone?"

Doesn't that leave the Christian types the opening, "But he does - he gave us Jesus to die for our sins"?

I don't want to give too easy of an out.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Of course true mercy

Of course true mercy wouldn't require a person to believe in such bullshit....


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote: that

Hambydammit wrote:

that wouldn't be mercy, though would it?

I may be wrong on this, but if he "pardoned" everyone, then that wouldn't be mercy, it would be policy.

I think the concept of mercy requires justice to be coherent. Don't you think?

 

Yes. I think justice is a part of the equation. 


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote: wavefreak

jcgadfly wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
So is a better question this: "If god is merciful, why doesn't he show mercy to everyone?"

Doesn't that leave the Christian types the opening, "But he does - he gave us Jesus to die for our sins"?

I don't want to give too easy of an out.

 

Maybe. But it is still a conditional mercy. You have to accept that Jesus is the savior in order for that mercy to be extended. 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
I think there's no trouble

I think there's no trouble with being just and merciful until you start talking about omnis

If god is all-merciful, and all-just, then there is a contradiction.  If he is sometimes merciful, and sometimes just, then fine.

But... if he's merciful and just, then by definition, he can't be all-merciful, or all-just.  Therefore, he's not all powerful.

If he's all merciful, then there is no justice, and he is limited, therefore, not all powerful.

Same for just...

So, he can be neither just nor merciful.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote: I think

Hambydammit wrote:

I think there's no trouble with being just and merciful until you start talking about omnis

If god is all-merciful, and all-just, then there is a contradiction. If he is sometimes merciful, and sometimes just, then fine.

But... if he's merciful and just, then by definition, he can't be all-merciful, or all-just. Therefore, he's not all powerful.

If he's all merciful, then there is no justice, and he is limited, therefore, not all powerful.

Same for just...

So, he can be neither just nor merciful.

 

Ah yes. The dreaded omni properties. It's amazing how quickly things fall apart when those are invoked.


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
New here and already confused...LOL

Okay...I think it's possible to keep your word and be merciful..... I don't understand the confusion... everyone deserves to go to hell however since Jesus... you only go if you meet certain requirements ..


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
heheh Chrissy. Brave of

heheh Chrissy. Brave of you to jump in on this subject on your first post.

Quote:
I think it's possible to keep your word and be merciful.....

IF, and only if, you're not omnipowerful, all-just, or all-merciful. Are you willing to concede all this?

Quote:
I don't understand the confusion

It's very simple. Mercy involves doing something less than what is deserved. If your god created everything that is, he created humans flawed... in other words, he created us with the capacity to fail to live up to the standards he set for us. Since he did that, HE is the one responsible for our capacity for sin, not us. So, hell is not deserved by anyone, so it can't be mercy to spare someone from it. It's even less mercy if you make the conditions for being spared absurd. Belief in Jesus is absurd.

Quote:
everyone deserves to go to hell however since Jesus...

I'll explain it in detail...

God created the universe.

He created people, knowing full well that they would all fail to live up to his standards.

Then, he let them live for a few thousand years, sparing some Jews if they killed animals properly.

Then, he came to earth, sacrificed himself to himself so he could offer people the chance to believe in him so that they wouldn't burn in hell for the flaws he created them with.

uh huh...

Quote:
you only go if you meet certain requirements ..

and, the only requirement to determine my entire fate as a human is whether or not I believe an absurd story. That sounds pretty fishy to me.

Sorry. I'm not buying it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


todangst
atheistRational VIP!
todangst's picture
Posts: 2811
Joined: 2006-03-10
User is offlineOffline
wavefreak wrote: So is a

wavefreak wrote:
So is a better question this: "If god is merciful, why doesn't he show mercy to everyone?"

 

Seeing as this god is responsible for every parameter of existence in the first place, the better question is: why create a universe that would require a concept like 'mercy' in the first place?

Why create a situation, for which you are necessarily perfectly responsible for, and then create the concept of mercy in order to be merciful to the beings for which you 1) created in the first place and 2) put in a situation requiring mercy in the first place?

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
Haha Okay well because I

Haha Okay well because I don't know how to break it down all fancy like you did (I'm kinda' computer stunted!LOL)...I will answer as much as I can in a few paragraghs....

God created Adam and Eve with the Option we'll say to follow another route.....

They did and eneded up evicted... God did not abandon them there...that's mercy... Most of the Bible in reguards to God's actions are based on logic and consequenses.....

God did not create humans flawed...he created us with a choice.... Jesus had that same choice.... you are not flawed until you make the choice to deviate from prefection.

If you compare it to child rearing.... If I tell my son to never irritate his sister on purpose or he will have to go to his room...and he does.... why would it be wrong for me to then send him to his room? I don't think it would be....

Now this is clearly a REALLY toned down example but it is how I look at it...


Textom
Textom's picture
Posts: 551
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote:

Chrissy wrote:

If you compare it to child rearing.... If I tell my son to never irritate his sister on purpose or he will have to go to his room...and he does.... why would it be wrong for me to then send him to his room? I don't think it would be....

Now this is clearly a REALLY toned down example but it is how I look at it...

Yeah, this isn't the best analogy because you don't have the option to create a child who can't misbehave.

Maybe a closer analogy would be if you put your son in a situation where you *knew* in advance that he would fail--like don't feed him for three days and them put him in a room with a sandwich and tell him not to eat the sandwich. Then you'd wait until he actually ate it (however long that took) and then throw him out in the yard and tell him you're going to give him a spanking in the morning.

Then you send somebody *else* outside--let's say your husband--and have him spank himself in front of your son and say "if you believe I'm taking this spanking for you, then you don't have to get a spanking tomorrow." That would be the mercy part, but your son has to say he accepts your husband's substitute-self-spanking before midnight or else he gets a spanking no matter what. Even if he cries and begs in the morning because he thought your husband's behavior was just crazy, it's too late. He missed his chance to be forgiven for the disobedience of eating the sandwich.

That would be more analogous to the logic of God's mercy.

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
LMAO!!!! Okay, wait a

LMAO!!!!

Okay, wait a second!!! LOL

Um I know that my son IS going to irritate his sister...does that make me a jerk for punishing him for it? Is it only wrong because I "made up the rule"? no...In fact the rule was made up because I knew it would happen.... We came from Adam and Eve's sin... Your analogy wouldn't work because God has not kept us from something we need to live and then taunted us with it only to call our actions to survive a sin. We are a result...not that God didn't know we would eventually exist but he did not choose our existence. We did.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
You're having a bit of

You're having a bit of trouble with the difference between you and your god.

Your god knows everything and is all powerful, right?

Ok, then here's another analogy for you.

Suppose you knew with 100% certainty that if you ever had a child, that the child would be born with a horrible disease, and that he would live for 75 years, every moment of which would be excrutiating pain for him.  He would never know any joy.  Only pain and sadness.  There would be absolutely NOTHING that he could do to change that situation.

Would you have that child?

Ok, now... god knew with 100% certainty that Adam and Eve would sin.  He knew with 100% certainty that millions... no... BILLIONS of people would not believe that he had himself killed to sacrifice himself to himself so that they wouldn't go to hell.  He KNEW that because of his creating man, that billions of souls will spend trillions of years in agony.

That is not love, any more than you having the child I described.

If only one person went to hell, then god is evil, because all he had to do was create man in a way that didn't piss him off so much.

Seriously, have you thought about this?  God made man, and then made all these things about man that piss god off.  Then, he told man that all this stuff was really bad, and he shouldn't do it.  Except, every man will do it.  Then, he said, "Ok, all that stuff that pisses me off... don't worry about it.... just try not to do it, and believe that I killed myself so that you wouldn't have to sacrifice goats anymore... well, not you, exactly, but the Jews, because I love them."

sheesh.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
All of your analogys are to

All of your analogys are to an extreme.... you don't have to sin...although it's easy for you, you don't have to do it.... it is not absolute that the child's life would be full of pain and torment...(that's really morbid by the way LOL)....

When God made Adam and Eve...those were the only people he created on purpose... they had the option to sin...and did. So because God does not lie (even if he would want to) he had to keep his word. So now are you upset that he made us at all....or made us with free will...or what is the damage here?


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: All of your analogys

Quote:
All of your analogys are to an extreme....

You don't think omnipowerful and omniscient are extreme?

Quote:
you don't have to sin...

Has anyone ever not sinned?

If you answer, only Jesus was sinless, then you've pretty much killed your argument. If you answer that a man has lived who hasn't sinned, you disagree with the bible.

If people are batting 0 for 20 billion in the living without sinning department, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

Quote:
it is not absolute that the child's life would be full of pain and torment...(that's really morbid by the way LOL)....

It's make believe Chrissy. I can make up any analogy I like, and in my analogy, it's 100% certain. It has to be for the analogy to be good, since you say god is omniscient.

And yes, it is morbid. That's the god you believe in. Welcome to reality.

Quote:
When God made Adam and Eve...those were the only people he created on purpose...

Yes or no questions:

Did he know they would sin? Y/N?

Did he know they would multiply? Y/N?

Did he know every single one of their descendents would sin? Y/N?

Quote:
they had the option to sin...and did.

Yes or no... did he know they would before he created them?

Quote:
So because God does not lie (even if he would want to) he had to keep his word.

Yes or no... did he know they would sin and he would have to keep his word?

Quote:
So now are you upset that he made us at all

Your god is a fairy tale. How could I be mad at him?

Quote:
or made us with free will

If he knows everything that we will do, then free will is an illusion.

Quote:
or what is the damage here?

The damage is that people like you who believe in this evil deity cause people like me no end of trouble trying to legislate your silly morality, and that you and/or your peers want to teach that the earth is 6000 years old, and that you and/or your peers want to squelch scientific research... and ostracize your family members when they don't play along with your little invisible friend.

Do some browsing around this site. You'll read all sorts of things that your religion does that damage me.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Magus
High Level DonorModerator
Magus's picture
Posts: 592
Joined: 2007-04-11
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote: All of your

Chrissy wrote:

All of your analogys are to an extreme.... you don't have to sin...although it's easy for you, you don't have to do it.... it is not absolute that the child's life would be full of pain and torment...(that's really morbid by the way LOL)....

When God made Adam and Eve...those were the only people he created on purpose... they had the option to sin...and did. So because God does not lie (even if he would want to) he had to keep his word. So now are you upset that he made us at all....or made us with free will...or what is the damage here?

 

 

 

OK god knew Adam and eve would not follow god before it created Adam and Eve. It has the power to make them anyway it wanted.  It knew that the way it made them down to the atom would lead to the conclusion that they would eat the fruit.  Every aspect of their creation was governed by this deity, a deity who know even before he assembled them what would happen. If you know the future and are responsible for an objects creation, that means before you created it you know exactly what it will do (you created it in such a way it would do exactly what you predicted).  You are therefore responsible for anything it does. 

only people he created ON PURPOSE???? How exactly does a perfect being do something on accident?   

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
OK god knew Adam and eve

OK god knew Adam and eve would not follow god before it created Adam and Eve. It has the power to make them anyway it wanted.  It knew that the way it made them down to the atom would lead to the conclusion that they would eat the fruit.  Every aspect of their creation was governed by this deity, a deity who know even before he assembled them what would happen. If you know the future and are responsible for an objects creation, that means before you created it you know exactly what it will do (you created it in such a way it would do exactly what you predicted).  You are therefore responsible for anything it does. 

I am sure that all these "it" s are to make a point but all I could think of was "It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again." LOL Okay sorry Waaay off topic...

By not making Adam and Eve because he knew the future, would be like not having kids because you knew that one day they would piss you off....

only people he created ON PURPOSE???? How exactly does a perfect being do something on accident?   

I didn't say he did it by accident....

 

 


Magus
High Level DonorModerator
Magus's picture
Posts: 592
Joined: 2007-04-11
User is offlineOffline
Magus wrote: OK god knew


Magus wrote:

OK god knew Adam and eve would not follow god before it created Adam and Eve. It has the power to make them anyway it wanted. It knew that the way it made them down to the atom would lead to the conclusion that they would eat the fruit. Every aspect of their creation was governed by this deity, a deity who know even before he assembled them what would happen. If you know the future and are responsible for an objects creation, that means before you created it you know exactly what it will do (you created it in such a way it would do exactly what you predicted). You are therefore responsible for anything it does.

Chrissy wrote:

I am sure that all these "it" s are to make a point but all I could think of was "It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again." LOL Okay sorry Waaay off topic...

By not making Adam and Eve because he knew the future, would be like not having kids because you knew that one day they would piss you off...

I try not to presume the gender of your imaginary divine being.

Your god also made the tree which it knew would cause them to sin. The snake, the current state of their knowledge and everything it had taught them. Your analogy fails because your god had the power/knowledge to create them differently. You don't have the power/knowledge to create your children differently. If you had the knowledge that your children would piss you off to the point that you would have them suffer for all eternity in hell, would you create them?

Magus wrote:

only people he created ON PURPOSE???? How exactly does a perfect being do something on accident?

Chrissy wrote:

I didn't say he did it by accident....

Sweet, so when you don't do something on purpose how do you do it?

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


ABx
Posts: 195
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Quote: If you compare it to

Quote:
If you compare it to child rearing.... If I tell my son to never irritate his sister on purpose or he will have to go to his room...and he does.... why would it be wrong for me to then send him to his room? I don't think it would be....
(Putting aside the obvious fact that you aren't reputed to be omnipotent, omniscient, all-powerful, all-merciful, all-just, etc.) I think the biggest problem with the analogy is that sending a child to time-out for a few minutes doesn't quite equal the most greusome, morbid, and sadistic torture that goes beyond human imagination, continuing on for all eternity without hope of reprieve, and not just for the person that followed the instinct that he was intentionally given but absolutely every one of his predecessors.

So, to make the analogy more apt, would it be fair to abuse the child in every extreme way possible for the rest of his life, and for the entire lives of all his children, his children's children, and on and on until the extinction of the species?

If you think that's too extreme, then how do you explain hell? What about the original question of this thread? IMO, all you've really done, Chrissy, is to reinforce the point of the original post.


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
ABx wrote:

ABx wrote:

Quote:
If you compare it to child rearing.... If I tell my son to never irritate his sister on purpose or he will have to go to his room...and he does.... why would it be wrong for me to then send him to his room? I don't think it would be....
(Putting aside the obvious fact that you aren't reputed to be omnipotent, omniscient, all-powerful, all-merciful, all-just, etc.) I think the biggest problem with the analogy is that sending a child to time-out for a few minutes doesn't quite equal the most greusome, morbid, and sadistic torture that goes beyond human imagination, continuing on for all eternity without hope of reprieve, and not just for the person that followed the instinct that he was intentionally given but absolutely every one of his predecessors.

First, Hell was not made for humans...It was made fro Satan and his posse! LOLJK

Second, my analogy was only to serve the purpose of making an understandable comparison to the possible mind set of our God....

So, to make the analogy more apt, would it be fair to abuse the child in every extreme way possible for the rest of his life, and for the entire lives of all his children, his children's children, and on and on until the extinction of the species?

How is saying, "Don't do (insert offense) IF YOU DO THEN (insert punishment) WIL happen"..... and then keeping your word a bad thing?.... So now not only do you feel like our God is a jerk for making rules ...he is also unfair for keeping his word and somehow unmerciful by giving offenders a way to redeem themselves.... Gosh, I am really having a hard time following this logic....

If you think that's too extreme, then how do you explain hell? What about the original question of this thread? IMO, all you've really done, Chrissy, is to reinforce the point of the original post.

Not true... I have also learned how to quote people and reply to said quotes Wink

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes.] 


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
Not making these things

Not making these things would have been not giving them free will... therefore in order to continue the free will theme those things are necessary to have in a garden of Eden...

 

 

I try not to presume the gender of your imaginary divine being.

Okay I tell you so you don't have to go to all that trouble to be politically correct.... Our God is a guy...


ParanoidAgnostic
ParanoidAgnostic's picture
Posts: 402
Joined: 2007-05-20
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote: everyone

Chrissy wrote:
everyone deserves to go to hell

So, simply for being born (or conceived or whenever you define the start of life) we deserve eternal unbearable torture? Remembering that our birth was completely out of our control.

A god who made up that set of rules is not just completely unmerciful but completely unjust too.

 

The reason we are born deserving this punishment - original sin. We deserve punishment due to the sins of our ancestors. If we applied this sort of justice then If someone comitted murder we woud lock up for a few years, if they had children we'd lock them up for the same ammount of time, and their children's children etc. How is it just or merciful to be punished for the sins of someone else, even a relative? Is guilt encoded in our genes?

Looking closer, as has been covered. God created Adam and Eve, knowing that they would do what he told them not to. Infact given his omniscience and omnipotence I would argue that he created them precisely so they would disobey him. If you train a dog to piss on the carpet then hit it for doing just that are you being merciful or just? 

Let's look at the rule they broke. They ate a bit of fruit from a tree. It gave them knowledge. Who is harmed? this morality seems very arbitary. It' like a parent making up a rule that their kids are never allowed to read the encyclopedia. Are meaningless rules just? Is punnishing someone for breaking a meaninless rule merciful?

1) God creates 2 human begins designed specifically to break one meaningless rule.

2) They break that rule, god decided that they deserve punishment for this.

3) They reproduce, god further decided that somehow the children have inherited that guilt

 

Where is the justice, or the mercy?

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy, I notice that you

Chrissy, I notice that you completely ignored my post. All I did was ask several very simple Yes/No questions.

Would you answer them with simple yes/no answers?

{edit:  added text of questions}

Yes or no questions:

Did he know they would sin? Y/N?

Did he know they would multiply? Y/N?

Did he know every single one of their descendents would sin? Y/N?

 

Quote:
they had the option to sin...and did.

Yes or no... did he know they would before he created them?

 

Quote:
So because God does not lie (even if he would want to) he had to keep his word.

Yes or no... did he know they would sin and he would have to keep his word?

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Little Roller U...
Superfan
Little Roller Up First's picture
Posts: 296
Joined: 2007-06-27
User is offlineOffline
Nevermond just creating

Nevermond just creating Hell in the first place, God (supposedly) sends ALL sinners to Hell for eternity, regardless of the sin. Be it a Bush- or Hitler-level of sin, or not pracicing the correct religion, or even THINKING about sin, any sin=eternity. I don't understand why some Christians think like this.

I know somewhere in NT it says that thinking about sin is itself a sin, does anyone know where? I don't.

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


Chrissy
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2007-07-03
User is offlineOffline
Sorry I didn't see it....

Sorry I didn't see it.... Yes God knew these people would sin, multiply ect ect...ect...

He created us anyway to give us the opportunity to choose to believe in him, he created us for the ones who would choose him, and thus be with him in the end.


stillmatic
stillmatic's picture
Posts: 288
Joined: 2007-03-29
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote: Sorry I

Chrissy wrote:

Sorry I didn't see it.... Yes God knew these people would sin, multiply ect ect...ect...

He created us anyway to give us the opportunity to choose to believe in him, he created us for the ones who would choose him, and thus be with him in the end.

 But God is all-knowing. He knows before he even created you whether you would end up in heaven or hell. So what you are saying is that God intentionally created some people "wrong" so they would end up in hell and others "right" so they would end up in heaven.

 The real question is whether God is all-merciful on himself for creating life and then sending it to the greatest oven ever invented on purpose.

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien


inspectormustard
atheist
inspectormustard's picture
Posts: 537
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Pfft, obviously god is

Pfft, obviously god is merciful because he doesn't erase his mistakes. Not because he's a proud god and thinks everything he makes is perfect, but because if he started erasing now there wouldn't be anything left when he got done!


simple theist
Theist
Posts: 259
Joined: 2007-05-28
User is offlineOffline
MattShizzle wrote: How

MattShizzle wrote:

How exactly is the God of the Bible merciful when he created hell in the first place? As far as most sane people are concerned, eternal torture is excessive even for Hitler, let alone for everyone. Wouldn't true mercy involve forgiving unconditionally rather than "sacraficing himself to himself in order to save us from rules he created?"

This is a no bullshit zone by the way.

The sentence for commiting one sin is death, by definition of Mercy, anything less then death is merciful. God has given you the chance to get a "get out of hell free card" your choice if you want to take it or not. 

Also realize that not all Christians believe that God will torture you in hell. Perhaps all torture in Hell comes from Satan who finally gets to rule someplace without God interfering with his plans.  


Textom
Textom's picture
Posts: 551
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Little Roller Up First

Little Roller Up First wrote:

I know somewhere in NT it says that thinking about sin is itself a sin, does anyone know where? I don't.

In Mat 5:28 Jesus says "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."  This statement has been extended and extrapolated by some sects (notably Catholics) to mean that thinking about a sin is just as bad as committing it.

But the more common Protestant teaching is to fudge the relationship between thinking about a sin and actually doing it.  Instead Protestants prefer telling people that they have no control over their behavior, so it's better for them not to think about committing a sin because then they might do it.  It's the old Puritan "people are innately evil" thing.

And also, for the record, the doctrine of original sin is not especially biblical.  According to the Bible, Adam & Eve were thrown out of the garden not because they broke the law, but because God didn't want them to eat from the tree of life (and live forever like himself).  The doctrine of original sin was introduced into Christianity by our old friend Augustine of Hippo, as part of his whole adaptation of Manicheeism to Christianity (matter is evil, people's bodies are made of matter, therefore being born makes you evil).

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


ParanoidAgnostic
ParanoidAgnostic's picture
Posts: 402
Joined: 2007-05-20
User is offlineOffline
simple theist wrote: The

simple theist wrote:
The sentence for commiting one sin is death,

And this is merciful? God made this rule so it is evidence of his mercy. So any sin, eg. lusting after a woman, Any man who has ever felt the biological urge that god built into him is deserving of death.

Once again god makes the worst dictators in history look merciful. 

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
It's also extremely

It's also extremely irrational comparing disciplining childern to hell. The scenario you made to compare with God's laws would be if your son teases his sister you take him out in the yard, douse him in lighter fluid and throw a match on it (and somehow make the pain last forever rather than a few minutes until death.) I sure hope you wouldn't do that.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote: Sorry I

Chrissy wrote:

Sorry I didn't see it.... Yes God knew these people would sin, multiply ect ect...ect...

He created us anyway to give us the opportunity to choose to believe in him, he created us for the ones who would choose him, and thus be with him in the end.

So, it sound to me like you believe your god created humans to be kinda like a science experiment - to see who makes it through the maze and who doesn't.  Of course, that means your god is not all-knowing since he doesn't know who's going to make it and who isn't.

As for a loving, caring god, please read this article by Todangst about Loving Parents. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


ABx
Posts: 195
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Chrissy wrote: ABx

Chrissy wrote:
ABx wrote:

Quote:
If you compare it to child rearing.... If I tell my son to never irritate his sister on purpose or he will have to go to his room...and he does.... why would it be wrong for me to then send him to his room? I don't think it would be....
(Putting aside the obvious fact that you aren't reputed to be omnipotent, omniscient, all-powerful, all-merciful, all-just, etc.) I think the biggest problem with the analogy is that sending a child to time-out for a few minutes doesn't quite equal the most greusome, morbid, and sadistic torture that goes beyond human imagination, continuing on for all eternity without hope of reprieve, and not just for the person that followed the instinct that he was intentionally given but absolutely every one of his predecessors.

Quote:
First, Hell was not made for humans...It was made fro Satan and his posse! LOLJK
Uhm, "LOLJK"? Can you translate to English, please? (This would include elaborating on this point and explaining how it relates to the subject at hand.)

Quote:
Second, my analogy was only to serve the purpose of making an understandable comparison to the possible mind set of our God....
You did so quite well.

Quote:
ABx wrote:
So, to make the analogy more apt, would it be fair to abuse the child in every extreme way possible for the rest of his life, and for the entire lives of all his children, his children's children, and on and on until the extinction of the species?

How is saying, "Don't do (insert offense) IF YOU DO THEN (insert punishment) WIL happen"..... and then keeping your word a bad thing?.... So now not only do you feel like our God is a jerk for making rules ...he is also unfair for keeping his word and somehow unmerciful by giving offenders a way to redeem themselves.... Gosh, I am really having a hard time following this logic....

Nice dodge. You completely avoided my point. I like how to even trivialize torture in hell by removing it and allowing the reader to put in any minor punishment as though it were equal. If you think that other people's analogies are morbid, have you even thought about the concept of hell? Even a little?

So how about addressing the point: How can you be a merciful parent by subjecting your child, and all of his descendants, to extreme torture every day of their lives, for the crime of irritating his sibling?

If god is merciful (see the original post of this thread) then why would he give such extreme punishment for such relatively minor things? Why should someone who simply didn't believe, but otherwise lived a perfectly moral life, get the same punishment as Hitler - eternal torture to the extreme that we could never comprehend the pain and anguish, with no hope of reprieve, ever.

If god is merciful, then why is saving face more important than not torturing someone (and all of their descendants) for all eternity, for simply doing something that he intentionally made them to do and knew in advance they would do with absolute certainty?

If god is merciful, why make such extreme threats to begin with?

Why put the apple in the middle of the garden to begin with? If it absolutely has to be in there somewhere, why not put it somewhere that he can't reach it?

Quote:
Quote:
If you think that's too extreme, then how do you explain hell? What about the original question of this thread? IMO, all you've really done, Chrissy, is to reinforce the point of the original post.

Not true...

Yes it is.

Very persuasive response, btw.

Quote:
I have also learned how to quote people and reply to said quotes Wink
Obviously not true.


simple theist
Theist
Posts: 259
Joined: 2007-05-28
User is offlineOffline
The child thing doesn't

The child thing doesn't work...For one, It's not equal. A scientific process(thogh I would say God created the mind of the child)  created the child because of an action I did. I did not create the Child. God did create man and can destroy man's soul. I can't destroy a childs soul. There is no way to reach the conclusion that I have the same right to a child that God has to his creation.

Your also ignoring the fact that if you ask God for forgiveness, and actually mean it, he will fogive you and the punishment will not happen. Also the punishment is the second you sin, that second you die. God has allowed you to live beyond that time, allowing you the chance to ask for forgiveness.

 Also God will Judge you Knowing everything. Knowing why you did what you did, knowing if you were sorry for it, knowing if you would ever do it again, etc. I don't have that same knowledge concering children.

 You would have to make me equal to God in order to compare the two situations.


Gauche
atheist
Gauche's picture
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2007-01-18
User is offlineOffline
I have a question about

I have a question about this adam and eve story. Would anyone placed in that situation eat that apple? I mean god created adam and eve knowing that they would eat it, but was it possible for god to create other people who would not have eaten it? So, for example instead of creating adam and eve god would have created jack and barbara, and jack and barbara would have chosen to pass on the apple? Or would anyone in that situation eat it?

It seems to me that either god could have made people who would choose to pass on the apple or he couldn’t. If he could and didn’t then all the blame lies on god obviously (and he’s a pretty sick fucker to boot for subjecting everyone to the results for no reason). But if he couldn’t then there is no blame for anyone. The people were only doing what was unavoidable and neither they nor god could stop it.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


ParanoidAgnostic
ParanoidAgnostic's picture
Posts: 402
Joined: 2007-05-20
User is offlineOffline
Gauche wrote:I have a

Gauche wrote:

I have a question about this adam and eve story. Would anyone placed in that situation eat that apple? I mean god created adam and eve knowing that they would eat it, but was it possible for god to create other people who would not have eaten it? So, for example instead of creating adam and eve god would have created jack and barbara, and jack and barbara would have chosen to pass on the apple? Or would anyone in that situation eat it?

Well if he couldn't then he is far from omnipotent. He could have easily tweaked the personalities of adam and eve to be less inquisitive, more obedient or less trusting of talking snakes.

Alternatively he could have just not created the snake, or kept his private stash somewhere other than the home of 2 people he created knowing they would eat from it.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


ABx
Posts: 195
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
simple theist wrote:

simple theist wrote:

The child thing doesn't work...For one, It's not equal. A scientific process(thogh I would say God created the mind of the child) created the child because of an action I did. I did not create the Child. God did create man and can destroy man's soul. I can't destroy a childs soul. There is no way to reach the conclusion that I have the same right to a child that God has to his creation.

...

Also God will Judge you Knowing everything. Knowing why you did what you did, knowing if you were sorry for it, knowing if you would ever do it again, etc. I don't have that same knowledge concering children.

You would have to make me equal to God in order to compare the two situations.

Erm, yes, thanks for the reinforcement.

So with your comments in mind, how can this god be merciful, knowing everything that he did when he created Adam?

Sounds like a rather degenerate sadist to me. It would be like me cloning a child, giving it the proper genes to have serious authoritarian issues, at the same time building a rather complex torture chamber specifically engineered to maximize the anguish and keep the person alive, and then intentionally putting the grown person in a situation that it will defy authority so that I can spend the rest of my days torturing it. Yes. Very merciful. Oh, but if he accepts me as his ultimate master, vow to spend the rest of eternity worshipping and serving my every desire, ask me for forgiveness and invite me into his mind, then I would forgive him. Except that I might kill everyone he loves just to test his faith once in a while, maybe even his whole city, or even country. Oh, and his descendants are NOT off the hook.

Oh wait! I forgot that I specifically created his DNA to NOT do that kind of thing, so (in addition to the fact that I know the future) I already knew he wouldn't when I created him - HAHAHAHAHAHAH Fuck him! Let the torture begin, and never ever ever end!

This circular logic stuff is fun Smiling

Quote:
Your also ignoring the fact that if you ask God for forgiveness, and actually mean it, he will fogive you and the punishment will not happen. Also the punishment is the second you sin, that second you die. God has allowed you to live beyond that time, allowing you the chance to ask for forgiveness.
Even if I don't actually believe in god? If I must, then I kinda like Dionysus, can I ask him for forgiveness?


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
God didn't create

God didn't create hell.

Hell isn't a place. It is a non-place. The only thing that is there is your soul. You have awarness only of yourself.   The torment  is  the knowledge that you are separated from  god from all eternity and that you are utterly alone.

God does not send people to hell. They jump.

 

Thought I'd stir the pot for fun. 


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
That would only be true if

That would only be true if everyone believed in god. By not giving evidence for his existance and which incarnation is the real one, he's pretty much making it a circumstance of where a person was born.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Magus
High Level DonorModerator
Magus's picture
Posts: 592
Joined: 2007-04-11
User is offlineOffline
wavefreak wrote: God

wavefreak wrote:

God didn't create hell.

Hell isn't a place. It is a non-place. The only thing that is there is your soul. You have awarness only of yourself. The torment is the knowledge that you are separated from god from all eternity and that you are utterly alone.

God does not send people to hell. They jump.

 

Thought I'd stir the pot for fun.

How can you be seperate from an omnipresent being?  If you are there it is a place. 

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Magus wrote: wavefreak

Magus wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

God didn't create hell.

Hell isn't a place. It is a non-place. The only thing that is there is your soul. You have awarness only of yourself. The torment is the knowledge that you are separated from god from all eternity and that you are utterly alone.

God does not send people to hell. They jump.

 

Thought I'd stir the pot for fun.

How can you be seperate from an omnipresent being? If you are there it is a place.

That's why hell is not a place, silly. If it were a place god would be there. It is a non-place. There is no there there. Consider it as souls are spiritual singularities and hell is akin to a quantum super-position of all souls in the hell state. A super-position  of singularities is still a singularity and as such has no dimensions - so it isn't "there".

You aren't really expecting it to make sense are you?

 


Magus
High Level DonorModerator
Magus's picture
Posts: 592
Joined: 2007-04-11
User is offlineOffline
wavefreak wrote: Magus

wavefreak wrote:
Magus wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

God didn't create hell.

Hell isn't a place. It is a non-place. The only thing that is there is your soul. You have awarness only of yourself. The torment is the knowledge that you are separated from god from all eternity and that you are utterly alone.

God does not send people to hell. They jump.

 

Thought I'd stir the pot for fun.

How can you be seperate from an omnipresent being? If you are there it is a place.

That's why hell is not a place, silly. If it were a place god would be there. It is a non-place. There is no there there. Consider it as souls are spiritual singularities and hell is akin to a quantum super-position of all souls in the hell state. A super-position of singularities is still a singularity and as such has no dimensions - so it isn't "there".

You aren't really expecting it to make sense are you?

 

No, I don't expect it to make sense.  I thought the laws broke down in the singularity, I could be remembering something out of date though.  Have a link to your super-position of singularities statement?

To exist is to exist as something. To exist somewhere is to be in place.  Non-place is incoherent, unless you have a positive definition that wouldn't make it a place. 

Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Magus wrote:

Magus wrote:

 No, I don't expect it to make sense. I thought the laws broke down in the singularity, I could be remembering something out of date though. Have a link to your super-position of singularities statement?

To exist is to exist as something. To exist somewhere is to be in place. Non-place is incoherent, unless you have a positive definition that wouldn't make it a place.

Well, "god exists" is incoherent as is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. So what's the problem with "non-place" being incoherent? That's the fun thing about incoherencies. You can make them up as needed.

 

If you want a coherent definition of god then you might have to accept god as not omni anything.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote: God didn't create

Quote:

God didn't create hell.

Hell isn't a place. It is a non-place. The only thing that is there is your soul. You have awarness only of yourself.   The torment  is  the knowledge that you are separated from  god from all eternity and that you are utterly alone.

God does not send people to hell. They jump.

 

Thought I'd stir the pot for fun.

Just for fun, consider this...

God, as portrayed in the bible, is an asshole.

It would be degrading for me to kiss an asshole's ass for eternity.

Therefore, the "torture" of utter separation from god is actually mercy.

Therefore, I want to go to hell.

Since I want to go to hell, I can do whatever I want on earth, since I'm going there anyway.

Therefore, I will be a total asshole on earth.  This will serve two purposes:

1) I will ensure going to hell.

2) I will likely hasten my appearance there by being a total asshole.

So, you see, god actually encourages freethinkers to be immoral!

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism