Miracles at Fatima 1917

AL500
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Miracles at Fatima 1917

 Sapien, I understand you used to be Catholic. Didn't you know that the Blessed Virgin prophesized in 1917 at Fatima that many would leave the Church? You are helping to fulfill that prophesy. What a miracle it would be to the world if you would return to the faith. You have a unique opportunity to make the Church shine before the world. This would be a great witness and victory of the faith to a world that is headed to hell in a hand basket. To the skeptics, I advise you to study Fatima. The miracle of the Sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and many people were healed. All this was reported in the local newspapers. The healings occur to this day. God bless you Sapien. You are my brother. You can do this. Come home. God is waiting with open arms.

fatima.org


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AL500 wrote:  Jacob,

AL500 wrote:

 Jacob, where are atheists being persecuted? Christians are killed and incarcereated falsely everyday where it is illegal in the world or because they say something offense against homosexuals from the pulpit.

AL500, can you tell me the country's where Christians are killed and incarcerated falsely everyday because they say something offense against homosexuals from the pulpit? I am not sure which country's you are talking about. And for the "Christians are killed and incarcereated falsely everyday where it is illegal in the world", that mostly happens in very devout theistic country's. Just not your brand of theists.


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Less than 30 seconds of

Less than 30 seconds of work turned up this nifty little article discussing the supposed "miracle" of incorruptability.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/1995/2.pdf#search=%22Incorruptibility%22

It seems that one of the most famous incorruptables, Saint Bernadette, was infact entombed in a double casket surrounded with sawdust and charcoal. Upon the second exhumation of the body, it was covered in wax and placed in an air-tight glass case. Yeah, defies all logic.

 

The article goes on to look at other supposed incorrupt bodies of both Cathlics and non-Catholics (Buddhists and Hindus also have incorrupt "saints", seen here: http://www.answers.com/topic/incorruptibility-2 ). It's not a "miracle" exclusive to the Catholic church. You can read it for yourself.

 

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AL500
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Evolution is based on

{Mod Edit - this post was made in several different threads and deleted from this one because it has nothing to do with the original topic}

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote: Evolution is

AL500 wrote:
Evolution is based on lies and deceit.

Brilliant! Where most would use the "traditional" approach to debate and present evidence of their claim, you simply make an unsupported statement and expect others to take you at your word. You are an inspiration to the entire community, good sir/madam. I do hope you won't mind if I use your unique approach to rational debate in future threads!

Details of my timeout are posted here.


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AL500 wrote:

AL500 wrote:

Evolution is based on lies and deceit.

 

Creation Scientists debate (refute) Evolutionists. Free Online Videos at Youtube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr6uvUNJLww&mode=related&search=Richard Dawkins and 3,000 other evolutionists refused to debate this manhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL-cORRZdng&mode=related&search=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cffk0zQ33k&mode=related&search=

Ah yes, YouTube. That well known and respected source.

*sigh*

AL500, I respect the debating skills of people like William Lane Craig because I think they are extremely proficient. However, just because they are good debaters does not mean that their case is any more valid merely because they can make it sound more convincing in a controlled, time bound forum.

When OJ Simpson hired the likes of Cochrane, Shapiro and Bailey he was buying people who could talk a good game and knew how to manipulate the 'evidence'. It's exactly them same principle with these debates: where there is some doubt the person who is better versed in public debating techniques will win regardless of who's actually right or wrong.

What is far more relevant in the long game is the sheer weight of supporting evidence and this is firmly in the camp of evolutionary biology. No amount of linguistic fan dancing is going to change that.

This is why debates on these, or indeed other topics, don't interest me aside from the sources they cite. I woud rather find out for myslef than be swayed by the clever words of a glorified snake oil salesman.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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So we're clear: AL500

So we're clear:

AL500 wrote:

First, my definition of God is the Christian theistic definition.

Quote:
Remember, atheism cannot prove God does not exist. Therefore logically, atheists must be opened to the possibility of His existance and the miraculous.

Most atheists ARE open to the idea that A god exists, should ample evidence be presented. Unfortunately for you, that's not really what you're proposing. You are illogically plugging in the christian god here, incorrectly operating under the falsehood that there is any evidence at all supporting the idea that the christian god is any more likely to exist than Amen-Ra, or Balder. Therefore, logically, you're talking out of your ass.

Quote:
You really need to listen to those debates I gave the link to.

You really need to stop posting links to recycled drivel that have been refuted over and over again.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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AL500 wrote:  Vastet, you

AL500 wrote:
 Vastet, you are not thinking rationally.

You are in error, but I certainly understand how an irrational person would see rational arguments as irrational.

AL500 wrote:
You asked me for evidence for the supernatural and I gave it to you.

Now you are directly and personally lying to me, instead of simply passing on the lie of another. Sad.

AL500 wrote:
I even supplied you with the address lol.

San Fransisco? How about you send me gas money too. Not to mention room and board expenses. Oh, and you can explain to my boss why I won't be at work for a few days too.

AL500 wrote:
I find it fascinating that you assert that there are no miracles, then turn around explaining that you don't even know what incorruption is!

I don't know what it is because no theist can explain it. You haven't either, so I find it fascinating that you think this matters.

AL500 wrote:
Let me refresh your memory.

Refresh my memory? Rofl.

AL500 wrote:
An incorrupt saint is a person who has never decomposed. This goes against natural law.

Actually it doesn't. There are literally hundreds of physical and natural explanations for a lack of decomposure in a corpse. Spend a few months working at a morgue and you'll know a few too.

AL500 wrote:
Therefore, it is by definition a miracle. Got it?

Therefore it is not a miracle. Get it?

AL500 wrote:
And the Church has hundreds of them.

That they refuse to submit to scientific study.

AL500 wrote:
  Some of them are centuries old. Read "The Incorruptibles," by Cruz.

See above.

AL500 wrote:
And it just so happens that these incorrupt saints were miracle workers prior to their deaths.

Assertion without evidence.

AL500 wrote:
The proof I offer you is the very fact that THEY ARE INCORRUPT.

Not a miracle.

AL500 wrote:
The greatest proof that they are incorrupt is the fact that they are!

Which is not proof of a miracle, and even if it were, does not prove your god true or false.

AL500 wrote:

You don't have to take my word for it. YOU can go and see them for yourself.

Pay my bills and get the church to release a few of their corpses to a scientific research hospital and I'll prove to you that there's nothing miraculous about them.

AL500 wrote:
YOU can bring your favorite scientist with you.

Pointless. Only so much can be done by visual inspection.

AL500 wrote:
I am terribly sorry to disappoint you but your naturalistic worldview has crumbled to dust!

I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you but your argument collapsed on it's own hot air.

AL500 wrote:
We have evidence of miracles.

Nope.

AL500 wrote:
I have given the sources, books and even locations.

Fiction and fantasy.

AL500 wrote:
You're just to stubborn to investigate because you rule it our prior to investigation.

Nope.

AL500 wrote:
That is not how science is supposed to proceed. Science is supposed to be about investigation. You refuse to investigate because you are just too biased and stubborn in your pre-commitment to naturalism.

Actually the church refuses to allow scientific examination, but you can keep telling yourself this if it makes you feel better.

AL500 wrote:
And you are even violating atheistic philosophy!

There's no such thing as atheistic philosophy.

AL500 wrote:
Atheism does not claim to prove God does not exist. Atheism claims NO BELIEF.

By definition, atheism has nothing to do with belief or lack thereof in miracles.

AL500 wrote:
Since atheism cannot disprove God's existance (they cannot prove a universal negative)

Ah good, you admit your god is a negative.

AL500 wrote:
, then logically miracles are possible!

By definition, a miracle is merely something which cannot be naturally explained by the witnesses. By definition, a miracle can be explained with further knowledge, not by divine imaginings.

AL500 wrote:
ONLY AFTER the atheist has disproven the existance of God (which they cannot do) would they be qualified to assert that miracles can't happen.

I disproved your god a few posts back, so I am in perfect position to assert miracles can't happen according to your logic, which is faulty yet again, since god and miracles are seperate concepts that cannot prove each other without resorting to circular reasoning.

AL500 wrote:
But you take the position miracles can't happen even before you have disproven God's existance!

Strawman semantics. I'll never deny that things happen which we cannot explain. I will however deny that things happen which we will never be able to explain, which is what you think.

AL500 wrote:
Your problem is that you are opperating under the premise that you have disproven God, which you haven't and cannot do.

Except I did. Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. Simple physics law throws your god out the door. And it's merely one of many literal and physical problems with your broken concept of a god.

AL500 wrote:
As for William Lane Craig, it is very clear that you have never listened to one of his debates.

It is very clear to me that you do not understand basic evolution and physics to suggest that Craig is anything but a proven hack.

AL500 wrote:
You just have a penchent for dismissing things prior to examination.

False assertion.

AL500 wrote:
In otherwords, your mind is closed.

Nope, but yours is.

AL500 wrote:
You want to believe the world is flat and that nothing exists but matter.

This is a ludicrous suggestion. Not only am I aware that the earth is round, I'm also aware that matter is made of energy. Please refrain from making such idiotic claims.

AL500 wrote:
But then how do atheists account for the existance of universal abstract and invariant entities?

What nonsense are you talking about now?

AL500 wrote:
They can't. Listen to Bahnsen and Craig.

I already told you they are a waste of my time. Listen to and read Dawkins and Harris.

AL500 wrote:
As for your statement that matter cannot be created, this only proves that you have never heard Craig. Scientists and astrophysicists have universally rejected that idea. Not Christian scientists, ALL scientists including Steven Hawkings. You just don't know what you are talking about.

You don't know what you're talking about. The scientific method of ex nihlio rules out the possibility of a god by occams razor.

AL500 wrote:
Now untill you do your homework and stop expecting me to spoon feed you, I shall not speak to you again.

Anytime you want to stop making a fool of yourself by posting nonsense, feel free. I look forward to it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Chretien
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 I found this short video

 I found this short video clip on youtube of incorrupt saints.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7uPLx8PM8c

“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” -- George Washington


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I doubt very much that helps

I doubt very much that helps his case. But I can't watch it anyway.

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OneGodFurther
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Good story

Heh everyone,

Thank's to all the guy's of RRS, especially the main runner's of the battlefleet, you do some great work.

Am i missing something here. He has provided no source material of any kind and we are trying to refute him. Is this thing happening that day a proven fact or something. I hadn't even heard of it till the other day. It's like it came out of thin air or something. It seem's to have minimal source material so i think the claim's are a bit hollow.


AL500 wrote:

To the skeptics, I advise you to study Fatima.

I will do this with your help.


AL500 wrote:

The miracle of the Sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and many people were healed.

Ok, it sound's like a cool miracle, 70,000 people is amazing.

But

What you just write mean's nothing to me unless you provide source material.

Seeing as you assert "The miracle of the Sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people". Please provide signed source Testimonies of people that claim they where there that day, so the number is not just hearsay. If it is contained in another source(newspaper) please provide source.

Also provide signed Testimonies of the people stating they saw the "Miracle of the Sun" that day. Otherwise how can you assert anykind of number of people that saw or witnessed this miracle.

Please provide evidence of anykind, including newspaper's that you used to create this number.


AL500 wrote:

All this was reported in the local newspapers.

Please provide source's. I also heard that atheist, freemason's and commo's saw this. Please provide source's or how else do you know this.


AL500 wrote:

The healings occur to this day.

Please provide source's so we can start talking about the thing's you claim and unfortunitly i think this will be a point that will be so easily debated wrong by sceptic's that i don't think it is worth us even looking into this. It is so hard for you to prove that a god or virgin mary has any healing power's or that they even exist. First we have to look at what happened that day.


AL500 wrote:

God bless you Sapien. You are my brother. You can do this. Come home. God is waiting with open arms.

Sapien seem's pritty happy where he is. Why not just talk about the thing's you claim above.

I need source's for the claim's above and below, Evidence not Hearsay please:

"But the children had made mention of it prior to their own deaths."
 
And any other claim, like the non-believer's newspaper article, I need a source for that. Otherwise how do i know you didn't just make it up.

Also is there a website where all evidence is catalogued, it should have been done by now. You know like science has a catalogue of evidence for the great story of evolution, you should also have a catalogue of usable evidence for all your supposed miracle's. There should be tonne's of evidence if this is true. If there is none then i can only conclude that the story is lost to history.


AL500 wrote:

His incorrupt relics only proved what everyone knew.

Until we can test the incorruptable's scientifically we have no reason to believe it is a miracle or sign of god working in the world. Please tell me why i should jump to the conclusion that "GOD DID IT" when it could just as easily be a hoax.


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palm, ditch, steal, load,

palm, ditch, steal, load, simulation, missdirection, switch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qQX-jayixQ

 

Statue of liberty dissapears OMG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7GaM3bbtOw

 

Blast off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYTmEVFL_N

 

The difference is they call it entertainment, and you call it miracles.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed link] 


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OneGodFurther

OneGodFurther wrote:


AL500 wrote:

To the skeptics, I advise you to study Fatima.

I will do this with your help.

Welcome, OneGodFurther.  When you get a chance, we'd love it if you'd hop over to General Conversation, Introductions and Humor and introduce yourself.

 Also, don't lose any sleep waiting for a reply from AL500 as that poster is no longer on this site.

 

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Wow...

I just want to say how awesome you are...you're making this stupid theist look reeeal bad. NICE WORK!!! I love your combacks. Nice to have you on our side...lol.


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With the word "miracle" we

With the word "miracle" we usually refer to a violation of the natural laws. The point is that miracles are, by definition, exceptional events, which cannot be reproduced in laboratory. Miracles can then be studied only on the basis of the available records. Of course, the judgement about these records is subjective, and all those who do not want to believe in miracles, will always claim that such records are false or wrong. Many miracles have been scientifically studied, and some information is available also on line.

Personally, I think that the well recorded miracle is the miracle of the sun of Fatima, occurred in October 1917. Some years ago, I read an article on a well known italian newspaper about the miracle of sun at Fatima. I knew nothing about Fatima, except that some children had had a vision of Our Lady. I was really surprised to read that a crowd of 70000 people had seen the sun dancing in the sky for some minutes. As far as the number of witness is concerned, it was the greatest miracle after the passage across the Red Sea! I must say that the thing surprised me so much to leave me rather skeptic.
So I decided to seek more information, and what I have found has convinced me about the supernatural nature of the events of Fatima. First of all, the miracle of the sun at Fatima is quoted also in many different secular encyclopedias, such as the Britannica encyclopedia, where at the item Fatima I have found:

village and sanctuary, Vila Nova de Ourém municipality, Santarém district, central Portugal; it is located on the tableland of Cova da Iria, 18 miles (29 km) southeast of Leiria. Fátima was named for a 12th-century Moorish princess and since 1917 has been one of the greatest Marian shrines in the world, visited by thousands of pilgrims annually. On May 13, 1917, and in each subsequent month until October of that year, three young peasant children, Lucia dos Santos and her cousins Francisco and Jacinta Marto, reportedly saw a lady who identified herself as the Lady of the Rosary. On October 13, a crowd (generally estimated at about 70,000) gathered at Fátima witnessed a "miraculous solar phenomenon" immediately after the lady had appeared to the children.

Since 1910, the portuguese government had started a very hard battle against the Catholic Church: many religious orders were expelled and their property confiscated, new legislation banned the teaching of religion in schools and universities and annulled many religious holidays. Persecution of Catholics in the early years of the republic attracted international attention and brought the new political system into conflict with foreign diplomats, humanitarian organizations, and journalists. The (atheist) director Avelino de Almeida of the government (and very antireligious) newspaper "O Seculo" was present at Fatima on October 17, the day when the three children had foretold that God would have given a miraculous sign. The intention was to write an article to discredit the religious "superstitions" of catholicism. The article, published with the title "Terrifying Event! How The Sun Danced In The Sky Of Fatima" can be found on the site

www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm

In his article, the journalist describes a crowd of biblical dimensions, spread in the fields of Fatima. At a certain point, this immense crowd begins to cry "Miracle! Miracle!" looking at the sun. The journalists describes then an amazed crowd, who cry and pray.

I have tried to analyse these data to see whether it was possible to find a plausible explanation, excluding a divine intervention, but I have found none. No scientifically acceptable explanations exist for such a phenomenon. I do not think it is reasonable to hypothesize a conspiracy of 70000 people, simulating a collective vision. On the other hand, it would not have been possible to hypnotize such a crowd, spread on an area of some square kilometers. Besides it is scientifically impossible, even with the present technology (you can imagine with the technology available in 1917!), to realize an optical illusion like that. Some atheists try to explain this miracle as a banal optical effect; when we look at the sun for a while, we see coloured pulsating spots, or when the clouds move in the sky, they can create the illusion that the sun is moving. Obviously, we all know this, we all have looked at the sun and we all know the effects, we all have seen the clouds moving in the sky. Those who were at Fatima certainly knew this as well. So, unless we hypothesize that at Fatima there were only 70000 idiots, such explanation is not plausible at all. Some then speak about hysterism or suggestion. However, if catholics were all subject to hysteric crisis or they were so easily suggestionable, one couldn't explain why in 2000 years of catholicism there are no other cases of crowds witnessing to having seen such extraordinary phenomena. Actually, there was only the word of three children, and if this was sufficient to suggestionize so much catholics, then whoever claims to have some visions of Our Lady, could easily make a crowd of 70000 catholics to see the sun dancing in the sky. Some then ipothesize that some rare physical phenomenon must have happened at Fatima that day; certainly it should have been a very rare phenomenon! I do not think such ipothesis have any value, but even if it should have been a rare physical phenomenon, the fact that it occurred exactly in the place and in the time predicted by the three children is for me the most evident proof of the supernatural nature of such event. In my opinion, the miracle of Fatima is the best recorded miracle in all history.


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Quote:I have tried to

Quote:
I have tried to analyse these data to see whether it was possible to find a plausible explanation, excluding a divine intervention, but I have found none.

You're an idiot.

 

You realize that the sun isn't a small decoration in the sky, right? And that if the sun 'danced in the sky' (in otherwords, violently started shifting it's position), the Earth would cease being habitable (and, likely, be flung out of the solar system as the whole thing uncoiled)?

Since we're all still here, I'd say that this firmly falsifies the account, no matter how many sheeple claim to have saw it.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Mass Hallucination has

Mass Hallucination has happened.


pauljohntheskeptic
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Gabriel wrote:I have tried

Gabriel wrote:



I have tried to analyse these data to see whether it was possible to find a plausible explanation, excluding a divine intervention, but I have found none. No scientifically acceptable explanations exist for such a phenomenon. I do not think it is reasonable to hypothesize a conspiracy of 70000 people, simulating a collective vision. On the other hand, it would not have been possible to hypnotize such a crowd, spread on an area of some square kilometers. Besides it is scientifically impossible, even with the present technology (you can imagine with the technology available in 1917!), to realize an optical illusion like that. Some atheists try to explain this miracle as a banal optical effect; when we look at the sun for a while, we see coloured pulsating spots, or when the clouds move in the sky, they can create the illusion that the sun is moving. Obviously, we all know this, we all have looked at the sun and we all know the effects, we all have seen the clouds moving in the sky. Those who were at Fatima certainly knew this as well. So, unless we hypothesize that at Fatima there were only 70000 idiots, such explanation is not plausible at all. Some then speak about hysterism or suggestion. However, if catholics were all subject to hysteric crisis or they were so easily suggestionable, one couldn't explain why in 2000 years of catholicism there are no other cases of crowds witnessing to having seen such extraordinary phenomena. Actually, there was only the word of three children, and if this was sufficient to suggestionize so much catholics, then whoever claims to have some visions of Our Lady, could easily make a crowd of 70000 catholics to see the sun dancing in the sky. Some then ipothesize that some rare physical phenomenon must have happened at Fatima that day; certainly it should have been a very rare phenomenon! I do not think such ipothesis have any value, but even if it should have been a rare physical phenomenon, the fact that it occurred exactly in the place and in the time predicted by the three children is for me the most evident proof of the supernatural nature of such event. In my opinion, the miracle of Fatima is the best recorded miracle in all history.

There were photographers in this crowd yet no decent photos exist. There are plenty of crowd photos though. The world's observatories do not record any events related to the Sun on 10-13-1917. Not everyone claimed to see the Sun dance some claimed to see Jesus, Mary or St Joseph. Some saw nothing at all. If it was a real observation all there should have seen it and photos should exist showing in detail the 10 minutes of the alleged events. Show Me Proof. This has all the aspects of a UFO report. Remember WWI was occurring just to the North in France. People many times see what they want to see to support their hope and beliefs in delusions. Argue all you want this is proof but it is not what is called substantial evidence as there were those who saw nothing at all.

 

____________________________________________________________
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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Quote:I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
I have tried to analyse these data to see whether it was possible to find a plausible explanation, excluding a divine intervention, but I have found none.

You're an idiot.

 

You realize that the sun isn't a small decoration in the sky, right? And that if the sun 'danced in the sky' (in otherwords, violently started shifting it's position), the Earth would cease being habitable (and, likely, be flung out of the solar system as the whole thing uncoiled)?

Since we're all still here, I'd say that this firmly falsifies the account, no matter how many sheeple claim to have saw it.

Meh.

I doubt he tried all that hard in his analysis.

I think the extent of it went like this, "It was the Virgin Mary but it could have been God or maybe even Jesus".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Kevin R Brown wrote:You

Kevin R Brown wrote:
You realize that the sun isn't a small decoration in the sky, right? And that if the sun 'danced in the sky' (in otherwords, violently started shifting it's position), the Earth would cease being habitable (and, likely, be flung out of the solar system as the whole thing uncoiled)?

Since we're all still here, I'd say that this firmly falsifies the account, no matter how many sheeple claim to have saw it.

In addition to this, the sun isn't exactly localised.  It's in sight of 50% of the planet at a time.  Surely if anything happened to it, more than just people in one field would see it.  None of the posters who talk in support of these events see them in their full context.

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I find the whole "miracle"

I find the whole "miracle" not only insufficient to constitute any evidence of a higher power, but also a very poor attempt on behalf of a presupposed higher power to attract attention to itself. If there is a god he could surely perform a well documented miracle right here, right now in 2008. Even if he/she/it was only limited to say, one miracle per century (as to not cheapen the miracles) even in 1917 something a lot more substantial should've happened than a "dancing sun" seen by a group of peasant pilgrims. I mean, give me a break. How about healing an amputated leg in front of an audience? Or stopping ice from melting in the summer heat? Or suspending gravity in a constrained area for a while? Now if documented and recorded to happen without human interference, that would get MY attention.

 

If the best a god can do is create some questionable illusionary planetary experience and dry some Portugese mud, than sorry - I remain unimpressed.

 

Let me now ask our dear catholic friends (what are they doing here anyway - winning converts??) this: If you are willing to consider an unexplained phenomenon FOR THE GOOD to be proof of god's existance, then the opposide should be true as well. A healthy person dropping dead on the street for no apparent reason should be proof to you that god does not exist. Holocaust should be proof that god does not exist. I know it's not (to me at least) but it should certainly make a theist question his/her god(s).  So, what do you say? Where was your "Holy Lady"(also a Jewess, coincidently) where Jews were being starved and burned in ovens by the thousands? Was she busy trying to "shake the sun" in front of a bunch of farmers in another village?

 

Forgive my bluntness (or not!) but you've got a lot of guts bargin in here with your theist crap considering how much blood the catholic church has on their hands, how many scandals it was involved in and how many lives it ruined. As Catholics you should hang your heads in shame and just shut up.

 

 

 

What's the difference between Texas and Saudi Arabia? In Texas they execute you for murder, in Saudi Arabia they excecute you for having a Xmass tree.