Miracles at Fatima 1917

AL500
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Miracles at Fatima 1917

 Sapien, I understand you used to be Catholic. Didn't you know that the Blessed Virgin prophesized in 1917 at Fatima that many would leave the Church? You are helping to fulfill that prophesy. What a miracle it would be to the world if you would return to the faith. You have a unique opportunity to make the Church shine before the world. This would be a great witness and victory of the faith to a world that is headed to hell in a hand basket. To the skeptics, I advise you to study Fatima. The miracle of the Sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and many people were healed. All this was reported in the local newspapers. The healings occur to this day. God bless you Sapien. You are my brother. You can do this. Come home. God is waiting with open arms.

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AL500
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Also, when the people walked

Also, when the people walked to the place where the miracle was to occur, it was raining so hard that the mud was almost up to their knees. But after the miracle of the Sun occured, the mud was bone dry. Scientists have said that the energy required to produce that sudden dryness, would be equal to a ten megaton bomb. But of course if this happened everyone would be incinerated. But they weren't. Another miracle in itself.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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Pure gibberish. Group

Pure gibberish. Group hallucination is documented, especially under social pressure as the instance at Fatima was.

And I utterly reject that "scientists said that the energy required to produce that sudden dryness, would be equal to a ten megaton bomb." Now you are simply making shit up.

Get your head out of your ass. Hallucinations and mistaking something that looks like something else as a sign of God is a well known and documented phenomena.

 All Fatima was was this:

On a larger scale.

 

Here's a Skeptical Inquirer article on Fatima:

Politicizing the Virgin Mary:
The Instance of the Madonna of Medjugorje

http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-11/medjugorje.html

Apparently individual experiences of the paranormal can, on some occasions, be shown to arise largely out of the broadest social forces, including even those that result in cross-national warfare.

 

 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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AL500, do you believe in

AL500, do you believe in witches?  I'm assuming that you've heard of the Salem Witch Trials.  This whole Fatima thing is along the same vein. 

Frankly, I find it rather suspect that the third child told people that the virgin Mary had prophesized the other children's death after they had died.   Actually, I find the whole thing suspect.  Sorry, not buying it. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Yellow_Number_Five

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

Pure gibberish. Group hallucination is documented, especially under social pressure as the instance at Fatima was.

Can you show me where goup hallucination is documented? 70 thousand people seeing the exact same thing is a bit of a strech on your part to suggest a group hallucination. Also, it doesn't explain the sudden dryness of the mudd and the documented healings.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
And I utterly reject that "scientists said that the energy required to produce that sudden dryness, would be equal to a ten megaton bomb." Now you are simply making shit up.

You're entitled to your opinion. You just happen to be wrong.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Get your head out of your ass. Hallucinations and mistaking something that looks like something else as a sign of God is a well known and documented phenomena.

Where? 70 thousand people? The ground instantly turns from slush to mudd and healings occured. I agree hallucinations exist, but Fatima was no hallucination. Also, the prophecies the Blessed Virgin gave have been fulfilled. How do you explain that? I think you're desperate and really reaching for a naturalist explanation, but its not going to work here. Sorry.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
  All Fatima was was this:

That's Medjegorji not Fatima. The former definately has supernatural elements to it, but it is not from God.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


AL500
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pariahjane wrote: AL500,

pariahjane wrote:

AL500, do you believe in witches? 

Yes

pariahjane wrote:
Frankly, I find it rather suspect that the third child told people that the virgin Mary had prophesized the other children's death after they had died.   Actually, I find the whole thing suspect.  Sorry, not buying it. 

 

No, she did not. That is false. Please give me a reference don't come in here lying about things.

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AL500 wrote: pariahjane

AL500 wrote:
pariahjane wrote:

AL500, do you believe in witches?

Yes

pariahjane wrote:
Frankly, I find it rather suspect that the third child told people that the virgin Mary had prophesized the other children's death after they had died. Actually, I find the whole thing suspect. Sorry, not buying it.

 

No, she did not. That is false. Please give me a reference don't come in here lying about things.

Excuse me?  Watch what you say.  Since you gave me some bullshit website that is purely about promoting the supposed Fatima miracle, just quickly looked at Wiki.  While I'll take neither for truth (trusting your website is like taking the Bible as god's word).  I'm sure you can figure out how to find the info on Wikipedia on your own.  

I suggest that you try to have a little class when you're on this forum.  Calling people liars right off the bat doesn't exactly make friends. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


AL500
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 I was just told to get my

 I was just told to get my head out of my ass. Did you see me complain?


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AL500 wrote: I was just

AL500 wrote:
I was just told to get my head out of my ass. Did you see me complain?

Um, what?  I didn't tell you to get your head out of your ass.  I told you to get a little class and respect people who haven't disrespected you.  

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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AL500 wrote:

AL500 wrote:
pariahjane wrote:
AL500, do you believe in witches?
Yes

Hold on a second... let me get this off my chest.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Witches!

HAHAHAHA!

 

HA!

Really, this sort of argument needs no more rebuttal than that. Witches... hoo boy. Are we talking Harry Potter type witches? Broomstick witches? Or just goth pagans who commune with earth spirits and paint with menstrual blood and collect crystals? I mean, they're all bullshit, but some are a bit nuttier than others, you know?

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Quote: Didn't you know that

Quote:
Didn't you know that the Blessed Virgin prophesized in 1917 at Fatima that many would leave the Church? You are helping to fulfill that prophesy. What a miracle it would be to the world if you would return to the faith.

So let me get this straight...

 If people leave the church it fulfulls prophesy and prooves christianity is right, if people return to the church it's a miracle and prooves christianity.

Ok, nobody do anything. The only way non-christians can win this is to do absolutely nothing.

Stop! you right there, I saw that, don't you move, you're prooving christianity.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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ParanoidAgnostic

ParanoidAgnostic wrote:

Quote:
Didn't you know that the Blessed Virgin prophesized in 1917 at Fatima that many would leave the Church? You are helping to fulfill that prophesy. What a miracle it would be to the world if you would return to the faith.

So let me get this straight...

If people leave the church it fulfulls prophesy and prooves christianity is right, if people return to the church it's a miracle and prooves christianity.

Ok, nobody do anything. The only way non-christians can win this is to do absolutely nothing.

Stop! you right there, I saw that, don't you move, you're prooving christianity.

 

In other words, there is no possible way to falsify this prohphecy. I think you could add that if people stay christians it proves christanity because there are so many christians. This "argument" neccessarily becomes true because he has defined it to be true. It's impossible to be false by defination.


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AL500 wrote: Also, when the

AL500 wrote:
Also, when the people walked to the place where the miracle was to occur, it was raining so hard that the mud was almost up to their knees.

Have you ever tried to walk in mud up to your knees? It's virtually impossible. Someone's standing knee-high in something alright...

Quote:
But after the miracle of the Sun occured, the mud was bone dry.

So, all those people were stuck in knee-high mud casts?

The only miracle that occurred in Fatima in 1917 was that a hoax created almost 100 years ago would still be believed as fact by people today.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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zntneo wrote: In other

zntneo wrote:
In other words, there is no possible way to falsify this prohphecy. I think you could add that if people stay christians it proves christanity because there are so many christians. This "argument" neccessarily becomes true because he has defined it to be true. It's impossible to be false by defination.

You forget, though. Theists consider nonfalsifiability to be a benefit. Seriously, if you keep saying "you can't prove it false", they just lap that right up like it was a communion wafer. You have to explicitly hammer home the point that nonfalsifiability is pretty much an indicator of complete and total bullshit.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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AL500 wrote: Sapien, I

AL500 wrote:

Sapien, I understand you used to be Catholic. Didn't you know that the Blessed Virgin prophesized in 1917 at Fatima that many would leave the Church?

Yeah, back in 1917 people realized people wouldn't buy the church's BS and leave for more intelligent pastures.  This isn't a news flash.  What's amazing is that you still buy the crap you believe.  A bunch of people get delusions and you think that means what they saw was real.  My dad told me of a time when he was in Arizona and saw a weather balloon.  He mentioned how people reported sighting a UFO making all sorts of bizarre movements like a spacecraft might.  Despite those people believing they saw an alien craft still doesn't change the fact it was a weather balloon.

BTW, if you hadn't noticed the sun shines on half the planet so some "miracle" involving the sun wouldn't be visible to a few people on a small geographical location on the planet.  You just killed your credibility.  How do you feel about that? 


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pariahjane

pariahjane wrote:
  

Frankly, I find it rather suspect that the third child told people that the virgin Mary had prophesized the other children's death after they had died.   Actually, I find the whole thing suspect.  Sorry, not buying it. 

But the children had made mention of it prior to their own deaths. The Blessed Virgin said in 1917 that two of the children would soon die. This was fulfilled in 1919. In 1954 they were exzumed and the girl (Jacinta) was found completely incorrupt. This is a sign of sainthood. There are over 260 incorrupt saints in the Catholic church. Read, The Incorruptibles, by Cruz.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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JeremiahSmith wrote: Hold

JeremiahSmith wrote:

Hold on a second... let me get this off my chest.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Witches!

HAHAHAHA!

 

HA!

 Witchcraft is growing in Europe and America. Southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world. I'm not talking about witches on flying brooms. Witchraft is a religion and has even won status in the armed forces.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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pariahjane wrote: Um,

pariahjane wrote:

Um, what?  I didn't tell you to get your head out of your ass.  I told you to get a little class and respect people who haven't disrespected you.  

I wasn't refering to you. It was said by the other poster.

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 The blessed Virgin stated

 The blessed Virgin stated that there would be a loss of faith and people would leave the Church. This has happened in the droves. Since the 1960's it is estimated that around 60% of Catholics have left the Church. This was true in America and especially Europe.

 

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 Actually, I think it was

 Actually, I think it was 40% of Catholics in america. don't quote me on that. I have to find the statistics.

 

It has been alleged that the fact that an unspecified "miracle" had been predicted in advance, the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied nature of the observers as including both skeptics and believers alike, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any causative factor, all reasonably preclude the theory of a mass hallucination. That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometers away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria. (De Marchi 1952b:150, 278–82) Please also keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not easily accept everything. They have a very rigerous process of investigation.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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 And they have accepted the

 And they have accepted the apparitions and miracles of Fatima.


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AL500 wrote: The blessed

AL500 wrote:

The blessed Virgin stated that there would be a loss of faith and people would leave the Church. This has happened in the droves. Since the 1960's it is estimated that around 60% of Catholics have left the Church. This was true in America and especially Europe.

Maybe.... just maybe.....

Whoever prophesized this realized the catholic church was fucked up beyond belief and could see the pedophile priests and the cover ups turning people away.

I tell you I could have prophesized the same thing.... 


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AL500 wrote: The blessed

AL500 wrote:

The blessed Virgin stated that there would be a loss of faith and people would leave the Church. This has happened in the droves. Since the 1960's it is estimated that around 60% of Catholics have left the Church. This was true in America and especially Europe.

Yeah, and Louis Pasteur predicted in 1862 that the belief that flies spontenously arose from poop would decrease too.  Thomas Jefferson predicted that religious belief would decrease in America with the advent of increased education.  Heck, he was right about that as well and that predated your prediction.

Again, people losing a belief in something absurd isn't a divine prediction, it's restating the obvious.  The belief in phrenology was predicted in the 20th century to eventually fall out of favor in the field of criminology.  Sure enough that prediction came true as well.

Do you have a point or is it your intent to convince us that you have a weak grasp on reality?


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I will make a divine

I will make a divine prediction now.  I predict that in the next 100 years Scientology will fade into obscurity, along with Raelinism.

I predicted the obvious, perhaps some deluded Catholic on this forum will hail me as a prophet now.     


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BGH wrote: Maybe.... just

BGH wrote:

Maybe.... just maybe.....

Whoever prophesized this realized the catholic church was fucked up beyond belief and could see the pedophile priests and the cover ups turning people away.

I tell you I could have prophesized the same thing.... 

 

In 1917? She also predicted world war 2, famine, the persecution of the Church and the pope. All of this has occured. She also said that two of the children would soon be with her. They died two years later.

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AL500 wrote:   In 1917?

AL500 wrote:
 

In 1917? She also predicted world war 2, famine, the persecution of the Church and the pope. All of this has occured. She also said that two of the children would soon be with her. They died two years later.

Why not produce something more substantial?  Wars are common, famines are common, popes are always there, and Christians always experience some criticism.  Unless you have something actually worthy of discussion to validate your point you are little more than a troll. 


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 I've already given my

 I've already given my argument. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and this has not been refuted.

I find it fascinating that atheists don't believe in God, the easter bunny, tooth fairy and flying spaghetti monster, but they find a troll under every bush.

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AL500 wrote: I've already

AL500 wrote:

I've already given my argument. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and this has not been refuted.

I find it fascinating that atheists don't believe in God, the easter bunny, tooth fairy and flying spaghetti monster, but they find a troll under every bush.

I've already refuted it, you just ignored what I said.  If there was some event with the sun then it would be visible to half the planet and not just a small geographical location.  Since it wasn't then it was a mass delusion. 


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    Shall we check out

    Shall we check out these so called prophecies. Lets start off with the first one.

The war is going to end," Lucia quoted the Blessed Mother as saying, "but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given to you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father."

Ok so we all agree, WWI ended (which it was bound to anyways) and WWII did occur which we all agree was far worse than WWI. Famine (shall we look throughout history for famine, especially when  the prediction is done supposedly during WWI)  and persecutions of the chruch and the holy father, again not really a far strectch here, since protestant churches were rising in Europe. So for a prediction done in 1917, why wasn't the first part reveled until 1940, after the break of WWII? Of course she also mentions Pope Pius XI, which did reign from 1922 - 1939, ummm could this be some future telling of a pope or....self fulfilling prophecy? As for the light part, Sister Lucia supposedly saw the light in 1938 which she said would predict the coming of war, yet it was the aurora borealis that was visible across Europe on Janurary 25th, 1938.  Not some unknown light.

 

    Second prophecy states "When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays [of each month]. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated."

    Ok many believe that this indicates the spread of communisim by Russia. However in 1984 Pope John II consecreated Russia, has there been a great conversion in Russia? umm nope, has there been peace since the consecration? nope many many many little and now of course major war, no world war III but still no peace.

    And of course the third prophecy which was not revealed by Lucia until 1944, which she handed it over to Portugal's Bishop of Leiria. She told him that Our Lady's instructions were that it was not to be revealed to the public until 1960. The Bishop turned over the prophecy to the Vatican. In 1960, Paul John XXIII opened the sealed prophecy and read it, and the faithful anxiously awaited its promised revelation. But it was not to be. In apparent defiance of the Blessed Mother's instructions, the Pope refused to reveal the contents of the prophecy saying, "This prophecy does not relate to my time."

The third prophecy is as follows, translated from portuguese, available online (just google it people) After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God".

This according to Pope John Paul II was his assassination attempt 19 years earlier (as the Pope stated in May 13th 2000) Ok this one is a stretch at best, he didn't die, the city was not in ruins he was not gunned down by Soliders with Bullets and arrows.

So which how are we to take this seriously? So far most of it is told after the facts, or did not happen, or stated to be fulfilled but really hasn't been fulfilled. How can one say that the Fatima prophecies occured. As for the rest of what happened at Fatima, i cannot say, i was not there, is there documented proof? not really new paper clippings about what supposedly occurred, no scientific proof of mud and then drying up instantly, no medical documents of the supposedly sick and then of course healed. Come on really, lets not try to make Fatima true when it clearly fails at it's own prophecies.  This take a huge huge leap of faith and massive lack in logic and reasoning to say it is true and the prophecies are fulfilled.


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The term "miracles" refers

The term "miracles" refers to a delusion based in ignorance. There is no such thing as a miracle. No theist can prove otherwise, no matter how they try.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote: The term

Vastet wrote:
The term "miracles" refers to a delusion based in ignorance. There is no such thing as a miracle. No theist can prove otherwise, no matter how they try.

That statement comes from ideological bias not observation. You merely assume there are no miracles because you have never seen one. I think that's rather presumptuous on your part. In order to make such an assertion, you would have had to exist during all of human history and been everywhere at once to observe no miracles having never taken place. Why don't you interview the 70 thousand witnesses of the miracle of the Sun? Many of them were atheists and renounced atheism .

 

These are free online debates with two of the greatest Christian theistic philosophers of modern times: Greg Bahnsen and William Lane Craig. They debate and refute various atheists. They prove atheism to be irrational. I highly recommend atheists listen to these debates. They are classics.

Theist vs Atheist Debates

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-d/

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D-cubed wrote: I've

D-cubed wrote:

I've already refuted it, you just ignored what I said.  If there was some event with the sun then it would be visible to half the planet and not just a small geographical location.  Since it wasn't then it was a mass delusion. 

 

I've already answered that. First, it does not logically follow that if it was not witnessed by half the world then it equals mass delusion. It was by definition a miracle. It happened in one location. That makes it even more of a miracle. Second, if the Blessed Virgin had intended for the whole world to see it, she would not have stated that the miracle would occur in Fatima. Your explanation also fails to account for the sudden dryness of the mudd, the healings that occured from the blessed Virgin, and the incorrupt body of Sister Lucia.

It has been alleged that the fact that an unspecified "miracle" had been predicted in advance, the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied nature of the observers as including both skeptics and believers alike, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any causative factor, all reasonably preclude the theory of a mass hallucination. That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometers away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria. (De Marchi 1952b:150, 278–82). P

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote: That statement

AL500 wrote:
That statement comes from ideological bias not observation. You merely assume there are no miracles because you have never seen one. I think that's rather presumptuous on your part. In order to make such an assertion, you would have had to exist during all of human history and been everywhere at once to observe no miracles having never taken place. Why don't you interview the 70 thousand witnesses of the miracle of the Sun? Many of them were atheists and renounced atheism . These are free online debates with two of the greatest Christian theistic philosophers of modern times: Greg Bahnsen and William Lane Craig. They debate and refute various atheists. They prove atheism to be irrational. I highly recommend atheists listen to these debates. They are classics.

Vastet wrote:
The term "miracles" refers to a delusion based in ignorance. There is no such thing as a miracle. No theist can prove otherwise, no matter how they try.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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AL500 wrote: BGH

AL500 wrote:
BGH wrote:

Maybe.... just maybe.....

Whoever prophesized this realized the catholic church was fucked up beyond belief and could see the pedophile priests and the cover ups turning people away.

I tell you I could have prophesized the same thing.... 

In 1917? She also predicted world war 2, famine, the persecution of the Church and the pope. All of this has occured. She also said that two of the children would soon be with her. They died two years later.

Nostre Damus predicted a lot of things and some of them came true. He also predicted that the world would come to an end a few years ago, but as far as I'm aware it still exists. I predict that there will be a few large wars, the continued persecution of atheists, the rise of theocratic power in America within the next century. If I'm right, that means I have magical powers of divination. Right? No. It doesn't, it means I'm good at seeing what is around me and trying to work out what it means for the future.


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From this site here,

From this site here, http://religionislies.com/fatimafraud.html#_The_Flop_of_the_Century

 

The Flop of the Century

The greatest alleged miracle of the twentieth century has to be the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917. Some books would have you think that it had no less than 70,000 witnesses (eg. Fatima Revealed and Discarded, page 168). The fussing done about this miracle is a mystery considering that the occultist Vintras prophesied that visions would take place at Tilly-Sur-Seulles in Calvados France and when the prophecy was fulfilled in 1896 many people had aerial visions of Mary and there were miracles in which bizarre contortions of the bodies of visionaries took place. Contortions like that are generally regarded as from Satan no matter how orthodox the doctrine they seem to defend is for they are so pointless and showy. The miracle of the sun was frequently reported at Bayside New York which was not only the focus of apparitions without credibility for years but which was condemned by the Church and which made mincemeat of the authority of the pope. When people imagine the miracle happening when there is no miracle or when the miracle is heretical and therefore from Satan there is no point in taking any implication of such miracles seriously. In other words, you don’t consider becoming a Catholic if you see the sun spinning and turning different colours. It wouldn’t do any harm to consider seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist or your optician.

In July, the Lady told Lucia who wanted her to do a big miracle so that everybody would believe that she would perform the miracle she wanted in October “so that everyone will believe your story”. But everyone did not believe when it happened. Many decided to wait until the Church decided. The Virgin obviously did not want an ecclesiastical investigation! The real Virgin Mary would have. Not everybody even seen the miracle of the sun though the Lady promised they would all see it.

The Lady appeared to the three children in Valinhos the following month. She told them that because of the scepticism of the unbelievers the miracle of October would be less dramatic and great. So she had changed her mind about doing an extremely striking super-miracle and set her Immaculate Heart on a less spectacular one. The less wonderful the miracle is the more reason people have to disbelieve it and yet she said she want the miracle done to make people believe. An all-knowing God does not change his mind for he knows all things and you only change your mind when you realise you have made a mistake. The Virgin broke her promise.

The atmosphere was right for many to say that the solar miracle had happened because even before it people were reporting strange things. Some thought the sky had gone dark in September though Canon Formigao who was the first to support Fatima saw nothing untoward at all (page 51, What Happened at Fatima?).

In October, a crowd of 70,000 had gathered. At the end of the visions, the Lady who had identified herself as the Lady of the Rosary, let the children see Jesus and Joseph and herself in the sun. Lucia shouted for the crowd to look at it and then many of them but not all (page 77, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary) saw the sun spinning or changing colour or both but the accounts do not agree (ibid 78, 80). Now, for the Lady to want the crowd to look at the sun which is very dangerous over visions that might have been hoaxes shows that she was not the Virgin Mary but something else – perhaps something equivalent to a fairy-tale playmate. Despite all the photographers who were present there are no photos of the changes in the sky or any physical evidence. The best the defender can do is produce photos of eclipses in far away lands! (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). When a miracle is given for unbelievers one would expect the Virgin to have done a better job of seeing to it being authenticated.

It seems that a crowd that could have been between 50,000 and 70,000 were at the Cova and were drenched to the skin (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). It seems they were up to their ankles in mud. But when the crowd endured so much discomfort which would only have brought them ridicule if nothing happened it is clear that they were desperate to convince themselves or their companions that they saw something. At that stage there was no miraculous or scientific proof that the children were telling the truth. Most of the people then had no regard for evidence and would lie or convince themselves they saw something when they saw nothing.

Many people would have said they saw something though they did not. The Virgin had said the miracle was for unbelievers and those who saw nothing might have been accused of being so stubborn in unbelief that doing a miracle to convince them would not work.

Also anybody who defended the miracle of the sun was helping to undermine the brutal atheistic government and would have felt that it was their duty to lie for Portugal and the Church. It was popularly believed that if the miracle failed to happen the children would be lynched (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) so there was pressure on people to claim that they saw something.

Many of the people had umbrellas up. Lucia had told them to put down their brollies before the apparition though it was raining (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary) which shows that she was planning an illusion and had touching concern for the old people who could have caught pneumonia. The brollies might have blocked their vision of the sky. It is obvious that not many would have listened to her or even heard her but many would have noticed people taking brollies down and then they would have followed suit. Mc Clure thinks the crowd did not expect to see the sun spinning but they all knew a miracle was promised. Since the crowd was so large and it was hard to see the apparition site they would have realised that any sign would have to take place in the sky and that most obvious orb in the sky, the sun. The ban on using umbrellas alone would have suggested that. But people were seeing strange things in the sun months before the miracle of the sun (page 76, Fatima In Lucia’s own words). The role of suggestion and emotionalism and imagination in the miracle cannot be underestimated. Lucia was able to trigger many of the people in their highly charged emotional state to imagine seeing the sun spin.

The people thought their clothes dried miraculously. They must not have realised that they had not been wet or not noticed that they had dried out which shows what kind of mental state many of them were in. but even today, people claim that Lourdes water dries on their bare skin instantly when they emerge from the baths at Lourdes. That is not true! Skin is waterproof and can dry and drip dry fast anyway.

The Virgin had vowed at Valinhos to convince all that her apparitions were true and from God by performing a great miracle (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). But all in the Cova did not see the miracle of the sun so she lied. The Church lies that the 70,000 did see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) but then we are told that no two people seem to have seen the same thing (page 55, What Happened at Fatima?). “It is clear that only a proportion of the crowd, probably less than half, actually witnessed the miracle. There is some evidence to the effect that only those who were standing in a broad band across the centre of the Cova saw the vision; but the truth of this is now impossible to establish” (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). The Cova was a natural amphitheatre which may mean that the event was a natural illusion caused by the way the sun’s rays were focused by the landscape. This would explain the broad band. The children might have seen it before when they were looking after sheep and planned to have the crowd there that day to see it. Remember Lucia did not roar at the people to look at the sun until she saw the “miracle”.

In a Fortean Picture Library photo in The Book of Miracles some of the people are not looking up at the solar miracle evidently because they have seen nothing and all of the faces looking up are not amazed. There are no open mouths or hands to the mouth. There is nobody showing any sign of fear. This picture tells a lot of the real truth about the solar miracle. Lucia herself did not see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?). So the only one who could prove that the Virgin was appearing did not see the super-miracle. Again, the lady does not care about proving the apparition authentic.

Fr Manuel Pereira da Silva wrote that the sun seemed to have come down to the height of the clouds and began to whirl. The people looked yellow. But if you look up at the sun and pretend you don’t know how high it is it looks as if it is as high as the clouds. And looking at the sun would make it seem to whirl especially when it is a scary thing to look at for we all know what harm it can do to your eyes. The people looked jaundiced because you cannot see colours right if you have just been looking at an excessively bright light.

An account in a newspaper, Ordem, mentioned the sun changing colours and whirling. That can be explained by looking at something too bright for you. It would do strange things to the eyes. The heat mentioned at the time of the miracle was caused by excitement.

Dr Almeida Garret who witnessed the miracle said that did not agree with the people who said the sun turned a dull silver. He remarked how the sun could be looked at without pain but sometimes that can be done. It is easy when you are excited and anxious to see the paranormal before your very eyes.

Steuart Campbell found that a cloud of stratospheric dust could explain the miracle and change the image of the sun and make it easy to look at (The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, Journal of Meteorology, UK, Vol 14, no. 142, October, 1989). The sun could still have been strongly bright depending on where one was standing that day meaning that different people could have seen different things. There is no way of proving that Lucia shouted that the crowd must look at the sun before anything happened. Only a few at the front would have heard her and they might not have seen what Lucia and some of the rest were seeing in the sky for their own imagination and memory would colour their perception of what they thought they were seeing. And you know the way it is with eyewitness reports at occasions like that. Some would misremember her saying to look at the sky before anything happened.

The people at the Cova knew that the children stared into space with few blinks to see their vision which was the traditional practice. When two or more people stare at a strong light source they will be subjected to illusions and different colours and the light changing shape and seeming to come towards them or go away from them. Try it and see. You can make a room seem to fill up with light and colour and things seem to move simply by staring fixedly at the one spot. Many of the people in the crowd wanted to see a vision and they would have stared deliberately and perhaps in eagerness to see something and the illusion started.

Garret said that the clouds seemed to pass behind the sun. But then the miracle of the sun was deceptive for there is no evidence that the sun moved that day except in the eyes of the people. Science can prove that it did not move. Would God do such a dishonest miracle? When the best ever miracle implies that God is a trickster the rest can’t be reliable at all. Some of the people thought the sun was coming at them which scared them witless and could have prevented them from thinking straight. If there had been no miracle they would have imagined there had been. If a layer of clouds obscures the sun the sun can look pearly. Clouds look pearly. The light could be bright enough to make it look like the clouds are moving behind it and not in front. People do not look at the sun so don’t be surprised if these explanations seem too simple to be true.

The solar miracle is dubious because it happened for the sake of the message of Fatima. And the message in one word is reparation, reparation for the sins and unbelievers of the world. This is a message of evil and perversion. If Jesus paid for our sins then there is no need for reparation and he cannot ask for it for it is a sacrifice for us because there are plenty of sacrifices we could be making. The Devil would not do such a miracle nor would a God so the miracle can only be false. The evidence against it is strongest.

The Catholic Church says divine miracles have mostly good fruits. Fatima started the spinning sun trend in religious fanaticism and it has carried on – especially in Medjugorje – and has left many blind or with bad sight or convinced of the truth of silly apparitions since. Plus some who thought at the time of Fatima that the sun was going to fall on top of them were evidently nearly driven to insanity and there could have been a stampede in which people had died for the normal instinct when you see that is to run away. There was no stampede which is evidence that there was no sun seen falling down to earth though some said there was (www.geocities.com/fatimaforagnostics/FAT.12.NEWSPAPER.2.htm). The Christian religion says we must love God totally and our neighbour as ourselves meaning that it is best for all people to serve God alone and to do it by helping others and ourselves not for our sake but for his. This is so unnatural that few do it and so what is the point in Mary’s miracle for its attraction was the display of power and its strangeness. People like to feel that there is a God of power to look after them which is what they want to run after miracles for. But that is quite contrary to the Christian religion which wants them to run after God and nothing else.

When most people wreak havoc over religion though they do not know if it is right or wrong why trust them when they cry, “Miracle”?

Let us finish with an important line in Mc Clure’s wonderful book, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary, “There are surprisingly few convincing accounts of the solar event at Fatima” (page 80). Yet this miracle is the reason for believing in Fatima and it is a weak one.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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AL500, like Brian I'm a

AL500, like Brian I'm a former catholic, so I suppose I'm helping to fulfill this so-called prophecy of yours that the Blessed Priss vomited up in 1917.  Long ago my parents and I (when still catholic) visited fatima. 

I can tell you firsthand -- it is a worthless tourist trap.  There was of course a visitor's center, offering tours and a dozen other ways to spend your cash.  There is any number of flea market trinket shops surrounding the site, selling all kinds of cheap plastic jesus stuff.  The original tree is no longer there because true believers kept pulling of bits of it to take home.  Now people kneel and pray in front of another tree as if it's the real one; wisely the profiteers have fenced this one off.  It was truly pathetic to see that some of these worshippers walked to the site from miles away -- on their knees.

At the base of a church built on the site, rusty pipes jut out of the wall, trickling "holy" water, which people are always washing with or bottling up to take home.  My parents themselves filled a used evian bottle with some of this, which we took home and stuck in the refrigeterator.  Sorry, no healings or other miracles to report.  It eventually got thrown away -- possibly by me.

 If this is what happens to a place when the Molested Virgin drops by for a miracle or two, I'd rather mary, god, the saints, and whoever else would just stay out of town.  Las Vegas would be more spiritually uplifting than such a place.

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This is silly that such an

This is silly that such an absurd story is treated by some as fact.


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AL500 wrote:   I've

AL500 wrote:
 

I've already answered that. First, it does not logically follow that if it was not witnessed by half the world then it equals mass delusion. It was by definition a miracle. It happened in one location. That makes it even more of a miracle. Second, if the Blessed Virgin had intended for the whole world to see it, she would not have stated that the miracle would occur in Fatima. Your explanation also fails to account for the sudden dryness of the mudd, the healings that occured from the blessed Virgin, and the incorrupt body of Sister Lucia.

And your answer is a bullshit answer.  If a guy claims to see a giant UFO hovering over New York City and nobody else sees it then you'll declare it a miracle because nobody else saw this blatently obvious UFO.  The thing about delusions is that people who are not self-deluded won't see it.

There was a wonderful psychological study done where one person (the subject) entered a room with nine other people.  A blatently obvious math question was drawn on a chalkboard.  The nine people gave a wrong answer and the subject who knew the right answer decided to agree with the nine because he thought he must be missing something.  It's no surprise a bunch of ignorant morons can be convinced to see something that doesn't exist.  It could be a math equation, a weather ballon, or a log in a lake which some people claim to be a Loch Ness monster.

It's pathetic that you work so hard to make excuses for your delusions.  You are evidence that your "miracle" is nothing more than people wanting to see something that doesn't exist. 


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Quote:

Quote:
An account in a newspaper, Ordem, mentioned the sun changing colours and whirling. That can be explained by looking at something too bright for you. It would do strange things to the eyes
I think this bears repeating. When I was very young, before I knew it was a bad thing to do, I used to look at the sun (although only for a few seconds at a time). You quickly start developing blind spots, which makes it appear to change colors such as blue, purple, red, with all sorts of other colors mixed in. It then starts to seem like it's moving around, whirling, dipping, and so on, as your eyes try to compensate for the blind spots and you start moving your eyes to avoid the pain. Throw in some strange atmospheric factors, and the illusion could be even more "miraculous".

This is quite far from any kind of supernatural event.


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Two things to bear in mind

Two things to bear in mind AL500:

When you stare at the sun it does appear to change colour and move because you get a ghost image on your retina.  It's your eye reacting to the bright light.

The vision of the 70,000 can be attributed to nothing more than another version of the Emperor's new clothes.  People believe what they want to see, especially if there is a visual stimulus.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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 Jacob, where are atheists

 Jacob, where are atheists being persecuted? Christians are killed and incarcereated falsely everyday where it is illegal in the world or because they say something offense against homosexuals from the pulpit.

 

Vastet, you strike me as a hard boiled atheist. Meaning, you utterly reject everything purporting to be supernatural even before you examine it. This means your mind is made up. Your arguments are NOT I repeat NOT based on observation or evidence, but on philosophical presuppositions, biases and a pre-commitment to naturalism.  There are so many miracles and things that defy normal explanation all over the world its not even funny. Just because your own circle of personal experience has never experienced these things, does not disprove in anyway that they occur. I myself have even seen miracles. I know they exist because I've seen them and nothing you can ever say could change that. Read about Saint Padre Pio. His miracles are well documented. One of his well documented healings was that a girl went to him to be healed of her blindness. She was born blind and without pupils. As they drove into the driveway of the monastery he was located, before she even saw him, she instantly received sight. Keep in mind, she has no pupils. It is scientifically impossible to see without pupils! Her name is Gemma di Giorgi. She is still alive. Many doctors have examined her and affirmed the fact that it is impossible to see without pupils and that this is a miracle. (see Bruno,  Roads to Padre Peo, p.115).

He healed many people. He was totally clairvoyant -- he would know your name and almost everything about you before you spoke to him -- he was seen in the air, he bi-located. He had the stigmata for 40-50 years.

Saint John Maximovitvh (the wonderworker) is another recent example. He also had similar gifts. He's incorrupt in San Francisco, and the Russian Orthodox Church does not embalm people. He's been incorrupt for 31 years, and many miracles happen.

 

Listen to these free online audio debates (Theist vs Atheist). My heroes Greg Bahnsen and William Craig are presented.

Theist vs Atheist Debates (God and Resurrection of Christ)

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-d/

Various Lectures by Christian scholars on God, Jesus, miracles, the Bible, etc.

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-l/#H

 

 

FATIMA

Yes, there has been written anti-Fatima propaganda. Of course there will always be skeptics. People write books and articles everyday.  Alot of their arguments are just lies or are based on inadequate information.

Remember, the people were not expecting a miracle of the Sun. They were expecting only a miracle. The fact that they all witnessed the miracle of the Sun, precludes any possible notion that the event was hallucinatory.  There were peraps one or two people who didn't see anything. But that was because they didn't deserve to. God rewards those who have faith or will have faith. As far as I know, all the atheists who witnessed this event converted to Catholicism.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote: Vastet, you

AL500 wrote:
Vastet, you strike me as a hard boiled atheist. Meaning, you utterly reject everything purporting to be supernatural even before you examine it.

Well you are both right and wrong at the same time. I reject anything called supernatural as it is an incoherant term, which means nothing. I reject your religion as it has been proven false in multiple theatres. Though I don't reject the idea of some kind of god outright. The term has yet to be defined by what it is instead of what it isn't. It cannot logically be rejected as a result.

AL500 wrote:

This means your mind is made up.

Concerning your religion it is. The facts are in, and the fiction doesn't counter it.

AL500 wrote:
Your arguments are NOT I repeat NOT based on observation or evidence, but on philosophical presuppositions, biases and a pre-commitment to naturalism.

False assertion. I have merely witnessed you ignore intellectual evidence presented in coherant format, and therefore won't waste my time writing a 300 word essay simply so you can repeat yourself and ignore reality as you've done with Todangst and Deludedgod.

AL500 wrote:
  There are so many miracles and things that defy normal explanation all over the world its not even funny.

Not one. You're continued inability to provide one proves this further.

AL500 wrote:
Just because your own circle of personal experience has never experienced these things, does not disprove in anyway that they occur.

It has little to do with my own personal experiences, which I suspect dwarf your own. It has everything to do with no miracle ever being recorded and verified.

AL500 wrote:
I myself have even seen miracles.

Hallucinations perhaps.

AL500 wrote:
I know they exist because I've seen them and nothing you can ever say could change that.

Proving without possible argument that you are irrational.

AL500 wrote:
Read about Saint Padre Pio. His miracles are well documented. One of his well documented healings was that a girl went to him to be healed of her blindness. She was born blind and without pupils. As they drove into the driveway of the monastery he was located, before she even saw him, she instantly received sight. Keep in mind, she has no pupils. It is scientifically impossible to see without pupils! Her name is Gemma di Giorgi. She is still alive. Many doctors have examined her and affirmed the fact that it is impossible to see without pupils and that this is a miracle. (see Bruno,  Roads to Padre Peo, p.115).

I just spent 30 minutes looking into this fraud on the off chance you'd named someone I hadn't heard of yet and found nothing. 0 evidence regarding any of the claims surrounding the man. No miracles at all.

AL500 wrote:
He healed many people.

An unsubstantiated lie.

AL500 wrote:
He was totally clairvoyant -- he would know your name and almost everything about you before you spoke to him -- he was seen in the air, he bi-located.

More lies without evidence.

AL500 wrote:
He had the stigmata for 40-50 years.

No proof.

AL500 wrote:
Saint John Maximovitvh (the wonderworker) is another recent example. He also had similar gifts. He's incorrupt in San Francisco, and the Russian Orthodox Church does not embalm people. He's been incorrupt for 31 years, and many miracles happen.

No proof.

AL500 wrote:
Listen to these free online audio debates (Theist vs Atheist). My heroes Greg Bahnsen and William Craig are presented.

Arguments defeated decades and centuries ago. Nothing of value comes from those hacks.

AL500 wrote:
Yes, there has been written anti-Fatima propaganda. Of course there will always be skeptics. People write books and articles everyday.  Alot of their arguments are just lies or are based on inadequate information.

In other words you can't substantiate a single claim of miracle occurance, and resort merely to attempting to discredit well thought jout rejections of these claims with a few words that do nothing to remove the power of the refutations.

AL500 wrote:
Remember, the people were not expecting a miracle of the Sun. They were expecting only a miracle. The fact that they all witnessed the miracle of the Sun, precludes any possible notion that the event was hallucinatory.

Proving you don't know and haven't read the refutations of this miracle claim proven false.

AL500 wrote:
  There were peraps one or two people who didn't see anything. But that was because they didn't deserve to.

*Snort*

AL500 wrote:
God rewards those who have faith or will have faith. As far as I know, all the atheists who witnessed this event converted to Catholicism.

As far as you know, it never happened.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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 Vastet, there are serious

 Vastet, there are serious problems in your arguments. I can't believe you don't see them. First, my definition of God is the Christian theistic definition. Second, it is erroneous on your part to assume that just because you haven't found the evidence of the miracles I reported, that this automatically proves there is no evidence. What kind of miracle are you looking for? I listed well documented miracles. You can go and see them for yourself. That's the best I can do. You said there is no proof that St. John Maximovitch is incorrupt? I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you but you can go see for yourself. He is located at the Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Cathedral on Geary Blvd in San Francisco. As for his miracles and healings, I can give you first hand primary source proof ---the people who knew him. What is your proof that John wasn't clairvoyant? You accused me of lying and yet you never even heard of him untill I mentioned him! He was known to be a saint even before he died. His incorrupt relics only proved what everyone knew. The same applies to Padre Pio. It amazes me that just because you couldn't find proof in 30 minutes you draw the conclusion that what I said was false.  As for deludedgod and the other person you mentioned, they don't listen or are incapable of learning. I don't waste my time with people like that. Remember, atheism cannot prove God does not exist. Therefore logically, atheists must be opened to the possibility of His existance and the miraculous. You act as if you knew He didn't exist. Atheism has never claimed that they know for a fact God does not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief, and as I said, it logically follows that in the atheist worldview they cannot disprove God. Therefore, miracles are possible. Only if you can disprove God would miracles be impossible, and no one has ever done that.

You really need to listen to those debates I gave the link to.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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AL500 wrote:  Vastet,

AL500 wrote:
 Vastet, there are serious problems in your arguments.

No there isn't.

AL500 wrote:
I can't believe you don't see them.

I can't believe you don't see the problems in your arguments, but this is a clue as to how it's possible.

AL500 wrote:
First, my definition of God is the Christian theistic definition.

Which is incoherant.

AL500 wrote:
Second, it is erroneous on your part to assume that just because you haven't found the evidence of the miracles I reported, that this automatically proves there is no evidence.

There is no evidence of any miracle ever existing, and you have yet to prove otherwise. This is the greatest flaw in your own reasoning process.

AL500 wrote:
What kind of miracle are you looking for?

Any kind.

AL500 wrote:
I listed well documented miracles.

You listed unsupported assertions of fantasy. You did not list actual events supported by evidence.

AL500 wrote:
You can go and see them for yourself.

I did. Which is why I know they are unsupported fiction.

AL500 wrote:
That's the best I can do.

Then I guess you're kind of screwed, and I was right from the get go. Another theist bites the dust.

AL500 wrote:
You said there is no proof that St. John Maximovitch is incorrupt?

I said that anything surrounding him claimed to be miraculous is not so. I've never even had a straight and uncontradicted answer as to what incorrupt means yet, so the term is irrelevant.

AL500 wrote:
I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you but you can go see for yourself. He is located at the Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Cathedral on Geary Blvd in San Francisco.

Irrelevant. Nothing miraculous.

AL500 wrote:
As for his miracles and healings, I can give you first hand primary source proof ---the people who knew him.

People are testimony, not evidence. Their testimony is suspect. This is not a court of law, this is science. Your god isn't on trial, it doesn't exist in the first place.

AL500 wrote:
What is your proof that John wasn't clairvoyant?

I don't need any. The burden of proof is on the claimant. You claim he was clairvoyant, you must prove he was. You have yet to do so.

AL500 wrote:
You accused me of lying and yet you never even heard of him untill I mentioned him!

Is a lie that is repeated by an ignorant messenger still a lie? Of course it is.

AL500 wrote:
He was known to be a saint even before he died. His incorrupt relics only proved what everyone knew. The same applies to Padre Pio. It amazes me that just because you couldn't find proof in 30 minutes you draw the conclusion that what I said was false.

Proof of a supernatural miracle would be findable in 5 seconds, and would be known worldwide. A 30 minute search coming up empty is proof there is nothing special to be found.

AL500 wrote:
  As for deludedgod and the other person you mentioned, they don't listen or are incapable of learning.

I assume you are looking in the mirror when you say this, since you haven't said a single thing to discredit a single thing they've posted. You're an ignoramus who likes to pretend otherwise in the futile hopes that some poor brainless twatwaffle will actually listen to him. Not going to happen on this site. I suggest a theist site if you want naive people to listen to your substanceless posts.

AL500 wrote:

I don't waste my time with people like that.

Of course not. They make you look ridiculous. You don't like looking ridiculous. Most people don't. But the fact that you can't deal with them shows you will never touch the atheist rationale with your fictional theism.

AL500 wrote:
Remember, atheism cannot prove God does not exist.

Of course not. The reverse is also true: Belief in god does not prove there is a god.

AL500 wrote:
Therefore logically, atheists must be opened to the possibility of His existance and the miraculous.

And so they are. Problem is that noone has presented anything proving gods existance and the existance of miracles, therefore belief in them is irrational.

AL500 wrote:
 You act as if you knew He didn't exist.

I know that no god man has invented exists. That includes yours. I don't speak for unwritten concepts of which I have no knowledge.

AL500 wrote:
Atheism has never claimed that they know for a fact God does not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief, and as I said, it logically follows that in the atheist worldview they cannot disprove God.

It would be nice if more theists knew this much. I must give you credit where it's due for acknowledging the reality of the term.

AL500 wrote:
Therefore, miracles are possible.

But none have ever been witnessed and recorded.

AL500 wrote:
Only if you can disprove God would miracles be impossible, and no one has ever done that.

Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed = disproving the christian god.

AL500 wrote:
You really need to listen to those debates I gave the link to.

No I don't. I've read plenty of William Craigs arguments. I could defeat him in debate blindfolded. 15 year old debates with dead people in a gymnasium are of no interest to me.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


AL500
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 Vastet, you are not

 Vastet, you are not thinking rationally. You asked me for evidence for the supernatural and I gave it to you. I even supplied you with the address lol. I find it fascinating that you assert that there are no miracles, then turn around explaining that you don't even know what incorruption is! Let me refresh your memory. An incorrupt saint is a person who has never decomposed. This goes against natural law. Therefore, it is by definition a miracle. Got it? And the Church has hundreds of them.  Some of them are centuries old. Read "The Incorruptibles," by Cruz. And it just so happens that these incorrupt saints were miracle workers prior to their deaths.

The proof I offer you is the very fact that THEY ARE INCORRUPT.

The greatest proof that they are incorrupt is the fact that they are!

You don't have to take my word for it. YOU can go and see them for yourself.

YOU can bring your favorite scientist with you.

I am terribly sorry to disappoint you but your naturalistic worldview has crumbled to dust!

We have evidence of miracles. I have given the sources, books and even locations. You're just to stubborn to investigate because you rule it our prior to investigation. That is not how science is supposed to proceed. Science is supposed to be about investigation. You refuse to investigate because you are just too biased and stubborn in your pre-commitment to naturalism.

And you are even violating atheistic philosophy! Atheism does not claim to prove God does not exist. Atheism claims NO BELIEF. Since atheism cannot disprove God's existance (they cannot prove a universal negative), then logically miracles are possible! ONLY AFTER the atheist has disproven the existance of God (which they cannot do) would they be qualified to assert that miracles can't happen. But you take the position miracles can't happen even before you have disproven God's existance! Your problem is that you are opperating under the premise that you have disproven God, which you haven't and cannot do.

 

As for William Lane Craig, it is very clear that you have never listened to one of his debates. You just have a penchent for dismissing things prior to examination. In otherwords, your mind is closed. You want to believe the world is flat and that nothing exists but matter. But then how do atheists account for the existance of universal abstract and invariant entities? They can't. Listen to Bahnsen and Craig.

As for your statement that matter cannot be created, this only proves that you have never heard Craig. Scientists and astrophysicists have universally rejected that idea. Not Christian scientists, ALL scientists including Steven Hawkings. You just don't know what you are talking about.

 Now untill you do your homework and stop expecting me to spoon feed you, I shall not speak to you again.

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


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Index of Articles on God's

God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen


Rigor_OMortis
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Quote: In 1917? She also

Quote:
In 1917? She also predicted world war 2, famine, the persecution of the Church and the pope. All of this has occured. She also said that two of the children would soon be with her. They died two years later.

I would like to see a prediction on the lines of this:

Jesus: "Remember the Day I was born. In exactly 1938 years from that year, a great nation that you will then call "Germany", allied with two other great nations that you will then call "Japan" and "Italy" will wage war against a vast region that you will then call "Europe" (it's right northwards of you, but you'll realize what "north" is when people that you will call "Chinese" finally invent what you will call "compass&quotEye-wink. These folks from "Europe" will be aided by some folks from "America", but I cannot tell you where "America" is right now, because a one guy named "Christophor Columbus" (yeah, blessed be my name) must discover it 1492 years after the year in which I was born."

Get my point?

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


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AL500 wrote: Witchcraft is

AL500 wrote:
Witchcraft is growing in Europe and America. Southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world. I'm not talking about witches on flying brooms. Witchraft is a religion and has even won status in the armed forces.

A fascinating paragraph.

Either:

a) You believe -- like all human beings who have more cognitive reasoning skills than a houseplant -- that people who call themselves witches don't actually have the ability to cast spells, make curses, summon demons, talk to spirits, or anything like that, in which case you know that the Salem Witch Trials were an instance of mass hysteria and not based on any actual evidence of witchcraft, and thus you would understand the analogy between the witch trials and the events at Fatima.

or

b) You believe that people who call themselves witches are actually capable of performing the supernatural feats of magic that they claim to be able to perform, which not only means you are an idiot but which also means that you have made the rather curious admission that, at least in your mind, there exists a religion besides Christianity which is actually true.

Which is it?

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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AL500 wrote:   These are

AL500 wrote:
 

These are free online debates with two of the greatest Christian theistic philosophers of modern times: Greg Bahnsen and William Lane Craig. They debate and refute various atheists. They prove atheism to be irrational. I highly recommend atheists listen to these debates. They are classics.

Theist vs Atheist Debates

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-d/

Why do you keep posting this? Do you really think it is effective?

It is not a substantial method of arguing your point. 


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This would have been a real

This would have been a real miracle if it had occurred somewhere in the world where people didn't already believe in magical flying virgins.