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Faith or Proof?
Posted on: June 8, 2007 - 3:06am
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Faith or Proof?
To theists... Do you believe your beliefs require complete faith or do you believe your beliefs are supported by scientific proof? If so what scientific proof do you have?
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Ahh, ok - what are your beliefs then?
Ignore the christian specific parts of my post and try again.
"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax
Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.
I wouldn't believe it if it were only me that saw it, I would get myself checked into a hospital.
I would not believe an individual reason, I do not trust the human mind enough. Humans are chemical machines that can and are very easily fooled - only facts verifiable by multiple sources will do.
FYI - Years ago I did see god - it was a bright brilliant light and being that seemed to surround me with beams of good will and happiness - I had never felt so in touch with another being in my life... the univese seemed at peace and I seemed important and eternal - I knew there was a life after death... then I came down off the LSD later and realized just how easily my mind can be tricked...5mg of a drug and I saw god... I never touched the stuff after that. Now I think, "just imagine if I had wanted to see him, or I had a minor chemical imbalance due to stress, lack of sleep, constant searching, waking dreams...minor episode of temporal lobe epilepsy...soo many ways to trick a mind."
"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax
Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.
That's interesting...so basically, you don't trust yourself? Now I'm making a deduction of the fact that you wouldn't believe yourself so could I not say you would not be honest with yourself?
OK so I'll append what I just said...not only do you not trust yourself but you'd rather put your trust in others and your truth comes only from others, not yourself.
So you understand what I asked before, if you saw the proof required to believe SOBER (restating what I thought I put the first time)...what then? I'm sure you'll have the same answer so I'm more curious about the first part of this post...and yes I admit I'm making a few assumptions about you but that's only based upon your last post. If I am wrong, by all means correct me.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
I trust myself for minor things, but for proof of the existence of a supernatural being and an origin for the creation of the unvierse, nope - i wouldn't trust myself alone. If I looked up in the sky and I was the only one that saw the stars spelling out the message, I would have to conclude I was insane .
Yes, for information such as this I would not trust only myself. I would be inclined to think I might be right, but I would have to hold judgement until my hyponthesis based on this information was verified by others. I would use scientific method and that requires verification by other sources, falsifiability and reproducability. It's not a matter of only trusting others, it's a matter of trusting the consensus of many over just myself. I once believed Santa Clause was real because I heard bells after midnight on christmas eve...turns out I was wrong.
What is sober? Are you certain you are precieving the world accurately? I understand you believe your observations about god are reasonable, but I also understand that they may not be. God experiences have been produced in a lab with electrodes, temporal lobe epilepsy has given people god experiences, drugs, depression, stress, etc...there are to many explanation that are tangible and measureable for the god experience...to ascribe the feeling of a connection with god to actually being god, is actually the least likely explanation given what science, pharmacology and psychology has uncovered about the human mind. This is why I would need others to verify my assertion for such a belief - our feelings and perceptions are not always valid... other examples are superstitions, ghost stories, alien abductions, fear you are being watched, etc.
"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax
Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.
No I can't claim to have proof of what I have faith in; I've never "seen" God or Jesus. What I have by way of "proof" personally are feelings and convictions of moments when I felt deeply reassured and comforted by my prayers. Essentially, my proof is personal experience coupled with tangible change in my life that I didn't think was possible on my own. You could call it a personal amazement I guess.
I don't think that anything about my faith is uniquely irrational. In my opinion, all faith is inescapably irrational.
Finally, I don't think that faith in God can be considered delusional.
Delusional:
I highlighted the second definition given because I feel that it is highly important in making my point. The point I wish to make is that we all can agree on the fact that, at the present, faith in God cannot be judged as a false belief. I would venture to say that objectively, it is a contingent belief. Therefore, in my mind, I don't see how faith can be considered delusional when it is a contingent belief and not surely false. [In making this point, I am thinking of the 1-7 scale presented by Mr. Dawkins. Whereas, most atheists, would be a 6 on that scale. Therefore, not being certain of God's non-existence and ultimately admitting that faith cannot be a false belief based on the fact that we don't know either way.]
The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller
Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat
Sort of pantheistic, but that eliminates evil if you take Spinoza's point of view. Terms like omniscient and omnipotent don't make sense to me. I have no problem with evolution. I don't consider the bible the "perfect revelation of god to man". I don't believe god is male (or female). I'm not convinced that logic is the sole arbiter of knowledge and truth. I am not convinced either way that a deity influences humanity. I am very sure that we are not the only sentient entities in the whole of existence. I am certain that humanity has fundamental limits on its capacity for knowledge.
Having said all that, would you like to modify your questions in any way? I might be able to give better answers.
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