Judgement

Giant Moth
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Judgement

Question.

 

About judgement, and judging people. Many loudly proclaimed atheist will know full and well to what extent desperate christians will go to defend the prime meaning of their lives. How many times don't you think RRS have been told they will burn in hell, etc?

 

I'm no expert on this subject. I'm no loud proclaimed atheist either, and I havn't put my nose deep in the bible. But about Judgement and judging people, is that not to be left for the old man himself? I'm pretty sure the bible has something to say on this, that god judges people etc. Is it really fair for christians to judge others in his name? This happens too often to be funny, really. Are people so desperate to defend the meaning of their lives(religion), that they need to play god?

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It seems to me that people's

It seems to me that people's need to judge others isn't about defending their faith so much as needing to feel superior.   Whenever people judged me they always seemed to be saying, "SEE!  I'm a better Christian than you and God's gonna love me more than you!  HA!"  A lot of us feel a need from time to time to be better than someone else.  Whether it is scoring highest on a test or becoming prom queen or getting the big promotion, we need to win sometimes whether there is a competition or not.  Although faith shouldn't really have this problem, people still want everyone to know that they are the #1 CHRISTIAN EVER.  "I've read more bible than you."  " Well, I went to church more than you."  "well I pray more", etc...  It is not fair at all, but there it is.  Of course, I could very well be out in left field on this one, but there are my thoughts...

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As I understand it, final

As I understand it, final judgement *is* reserved for the old man himself. I don't remember the exact quote, but Jesus says this. I suppose a Christian should not be saying "you are going to hell" because they don't know how you will be judged. It would be more consistent to say things like "hell is reserved for those whom are so judged" and then lay out the conditions that might bring about such judgment. But many Christians usurp the roll of judge and condemn freely those whom do not conform to their view of what is right.


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wavefreak wrote: As I

wavefreak wrote:
As I understand it, final judgement *is* reserved for the old man himself. I don't remember the exact quote, but Jesus says this. I suppose a Christian should not be saying "you are going to hell" because they don't know how you will be judged. It would be more consistent to say things like "hell is reserved for those whom are so judged" and then lay out the conditions that might bring about such judgment. But many Christians usurp the roll of judge and condemn freely those whom do not conform to their view of what is right.

Nice downplay considering all the violence god allows  in the bible to be done by his followers to outsiders.

Time after time god is complicite to genocide when his followers slaughter others because "God" gave them divine authority to do so If you cant see that in the bible, you must not be reading the words.

Here is the reality. Ancient polythistic and monotheistic writtings reflected the tribalism of the cultures of the time.  Kingships had a"Kill or be killed" "Us vs Them" attitude. So it is no suprise at all that that mentality crept into religions both polytheism and monotheism..

It never occurs to you that your holy book is nothing more than the ancients projection of their own superiority complex written down as mythology baught as fact?

I am not saying to be mean to you. I am merely presenting you with another option rather than the one you currently hold. Did that ever occur to you? 

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I believe that it is

I believe that it is completely natural for humans to judge others, we do it all the time, the first time we meet someone, when we hear statements or opinions of other people. We do it all the time for many reasons. Theists or christians condemning others to hell (if we wish to make this a judgement call) is not really different than someone seeing a gothic person and saying or "judging" them as dark and moody, or seeing a punk and judging them as violent etc etc etc. It is a combination of what we are....humans, and how we are as a society.

Children themselves are very judgmental, observe some kids one day and see how they act and what they say of others. My friends have kids and I have a child, and yes they are judgmental, because they are expressing their opinions, it may be very blunt but it is natural for humans to express ourselves. In the case of christians, it is how they have been taught, that unbelievers, heretics, hedonists etc will burn in hell and that heaven is only for the believer and more specifically for them, not so much as for those that god has decided to select (if i remember correctly for only 144,000 people which actually adds up to 12000 members of each of 12 tribes of israels, but who actually studies this stuff and believes it?) Atheists, christians, buddhists, muslims, hindus etc etc etc all judge, and what do they all have in common.....their humans.


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Brian37 wrote: wavefreak

Brian37 wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
As I understand it, final judgement *is* reserved for the old man himself. I don't remember the exact quote, but Jesus says this. I suppose a Christian should not be saying "you are going to hell" because they don't know how you will be judged. It would be more consistent to say things like "hell is reserved for those whom are so judged" and then lay out the conditions that might bring about such judgment. But many Christians usurp the roll of judge and condemn freely those whom do not conform to their view of what is right.

Nice downplay considering all the violence god allows in the bible to be done by his followers to outsiders.

Time after time god is complicite to genocide when his followers slaughter others because "God" gave them divine authority to do so If you cant see that in the bible, you must not be reading the words.

Here is the reality. Ancient polythistic and monotheistic writtings reflected the tribalism of the cultures of the time. Kingships had a"Kill or be killed" "Us vs Them" attitude. So it is no suprise at all that that mentality crept into religions both polytheism and monotheism..

It never occurs to you that your holy book is nothing more than the ancients projection of their own superiority complex written down as mythology baught as fact?

I am not saying to be mean to you. I am merely presenting you with another option rather than the one you currently hold. Did that ever occur to you?

 

I was stating my understanding of the theology, not what I personally believe. Hence the phrase "as I understand it" .


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Wishkah311 wrote: It seems

Wishkah311 wrote:
It seems to me that people's need to judge others isn't about defending their faith so much as needing to feel superior.   Whenever people judged me they always seemed to be saying, "SEE!  I'm a better Christian than you and God's gonna love me more than you!  HA!"  A lot of us feel a need from time to time to be better than someone else.  Whether it is scoring highest on a test or becoming prom queen or getting the big promotion, we need to win sometimes whether there is a competition or not.  Although faith shouldn't really have this problem, people still want everyone to know that they are the #1 CHRISTIAN EVER.  "I've read more bible than you."  " Well, I went to church more than you."  "well I pray more", etc...  It is not fair at all, but there it is.  Of course, I could very well be out in left field on this one, but there are my thoughts...

Actually, one psychologist named Adler (can't remember first name) says that our prime motivation is to supeority (more of a sense of being able to do something) and that a pathological person would have an inferoity complex which means they must be superior to people in anyway possible because they feel that they are actually inferior.


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I think its perfectly

I think its perfectly natural to judge people.  Everyone does it.  If I run into some guy at a bar, for example, and he's acting a little shady, or maybe a little pushy, it's going to factor into my opinion of that person and in some ways it may even protect me.  Being a 'bad judge of character' usually gets a person in trouble.

As far as the Bible goes, I believe it is up to god to be the judge.  Like you, I haven't delved too deep into the scripture so I don't want overextend my knowledge. 

Of course, many Christians (and atheists, and muslims, and buddhists, etc) are quick to judge.  When this is pointed out to some theists, you'll often here 'well, they aren't true Christians'.  The irony in this, besides the fallacy, is that the theist making the statement is being rather judgmental himself. 

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wavefreak wrote: Brian37

wavefreak wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

wavefreak wrote:
As I understand it, final judgement *is* reserved for the old man himself. I don't remember the exact quote, but Jesus says this. I suppose a Christian should not be saying "you are going to hell" because they don't know how you will be judged. It would be more consistent to say things like "hell is reserved for those whom are so judged" and then lay out the conditions that might bring about such judgment. But many Christians usurp the roll of judge and condemn freely those whom do not conform to their view of what is right.

Nice downplay considering all the violence god allows in the bible to be done by his followers to outsiders.

Time after time god is complicite to genocide when his followers slaughter others because "God" gave them divine authority to do so If you cant see that in the bible, you must not be reading the words.

Here is the reality. Ancient polythistic and monotheistic writtings reflected the tribalism of the cultures of the time. Kingships had a"Kill or be killed" "Us vs Them" attitude. So it is no suprise at all that that mentality crept into religions both polytheism and monotheism..

It never occurs to you that your holy book is nothing more than the ancients projection of their own superiority complex written down as mythology baught as fact?

I am not saying to be mean to you. I am merely presenting you with another option rather than the one you currently hold. Did that ever occur to you?

 

I was stating my understanding of the theology, not what I personally believe. Hence the phrase "as I understand it" .

And for the reasons I stated there is a problem with "The way you understand it".

Now, ask yourself NOT ME, but yourself this hypothetical question.

HYPOTHETICALLY, "If YOU were God" would you allow any child ever to be raped and murdered?

NOW. Remember, I am not asking you what God says or what God wants or what God does. And " I am not God" is not the issue either.

I AM ASKING YOU WHAT YOU WOULD DO(that is the only thing you need adress in your answer)

Yes or no? Would you allow a child to be raped or murdered if you had God's powers? A simple yes or no will sufice. 

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wavefreak
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Brian37 wrote:   And for

Brian37 wrote:
 

And for the reasons I stated there is a problem with "The way you understand it".

Now, ask yourself NOT ME, but yourself this hypothetical question.

HYPOTHETICALLY, "If YOU were God" would you allow any child ever to be raped and murdered?

NOW. Remember, I am not asking you what God says or what God wants or what God does. And " I am not God" is not the issue either.

I AM ASKING YOU WHAT YOU WOULD DO(that is the only thing you need adress in your answer)

Yes or no? Would you allow a child to be raped or murdered if you had God's powers? A simple yes or no will sufice.

The hypothetical question is useless. It assumes things like omnibenevolence and other absolutes.  This thread is about judgment, not suffering. All I offered was an observation about judgment. Nothing more.

    I cannot answer your question. If I were god, this world would undoubtedly be more fucked up than it already is as I have scarcely the wisdom to run my own life.


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zntneo wrote: Wishkah311

zntneo wrote:
Wishkah311 wrote:
It seems to me that people's need to judge others isn't about defending their faith so much as needing to feel superior.   Whenever people judged me they always seemed to be saying, "SEE!  I'm a better Christian than you and God's gonna love me more than you!  HA!"  A lot of us feel a need from time to time to be better than someone else.  Whether it is scoring highest on a test or becoming prom queen or getting the big promotion, we need to win sometimes whether there is a competition or not.  Although faith shouldn't really have this problem, people still want everyone to know that they are the #1 CHRISTIAN EVER.  "I've read more bible than you."  " Well, I went to church more than you."  "well I pray more", etc...  It is not fair at all, but there it is.  Of course, I could very well be out in left field on this one, but there are my thoughts...

Actually, one psychologist named Adler (can't remember first name) says that our prime motivation is to supeority (more of a sense of being able to do something) and that a pathological person would have an inferoity complex which means they must be superior to people in anyway possible because they feel that they are actually inferior.

Could that be Alfred Adler

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zntneo wrote: Actually,

zntneo wrote:
Actually, one psychologist named Adler (can't remember first name) says that our prime motivation is to supeority (more of a sense of being able to do something) and that a pathological person would have an inferoity complex which means they must be superior to people in anyway possible because they feel that they are actually inferior.

That makes a lot of sense.   

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rexlunae wrote: Could that

rexlunae wrote:
Could that be Alfred Adler

Yes thank you!


simple theist
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If God said "Do [this] and

If God said "Do [this] and you will go to Hell" and you do [this], is it wrong for me to say you are going to Hell? (and we should remember that you aren't seeking forgiveness for any unknown sins since you don't even believe in tGod). God has already said that you are going to Hell, I'm simply informing you what God said.

If it was up to me, I'd let a whole lot more people in Heaven then most Christian's think God would. I think we (christians) can all agree that Hitler is probably going to Hell, but as for the Dalai Lama I don't think one should absolutely say he is going to Hell. So if your doing evil things, I think its ok to say your going to Hell, but I'm not so sure about saying that someone who is loving, kind, always helping people, and is overall more good than most christians is going to Hell.


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Judgement Issues

As someone who doesn't believe that there is an 'Ultimate Something' judging us to some eventual fate I admit this is a complicated topic to address.

 It is in fact both entertaining and depressing to know that the very people who are indeed supposed to 'leave the judging' to the God in thier beloved faith stories, take it upon themselves to do it in his stead (or shall I say very pointedly, absense).

That said, I will go on to express my agreement with people who have already mentioned the notion of human powes of judgement being entirely natural.  It is one of the basic ways we function.  We develope opinions about everything that goes on about us based on many things, such as: personal experience, education, taste and emotion.  One of the things I find the most irritating in any converstation is the phrase 'you have no right to judge me'.  The hell I don't.  In fact, I have every responsibility toward myself to judge you, and further, to act on that judgement.  Everyone else has that same right as well.  Some people just base it off of better influences than others (better information, reasoning, moral standards, etc,.)

"The hardest thing in life to do is to see things as they are, not as you want them to be."

"I do not despise believers. I find then neither rediculous nor pathetic, but I lose all hope when I see that they prefer the comforting fairy tales of children to the cruel hard facts of adults. Better the faith that brings peace of mind than the rationality that brings worry - even at the price of perpetual mental infantilism."
~Michel Onfray in Atheist Manifesto


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simple theist wrote: If

simple theist wrote:

If God said "Do [this] and you will go to Hell" and you do [this], is it wrong for me to say you are going to Hell?

IF being the operative term here, No, it wouldn't be wrong but test the "if" for yourself. I'll help you. give me a quote with precisely such a statement in it. 

 

 

simple theist wrote:

 I think we (christians) can all agree that Hitler is probably going to Hell, but as for the Dalai Lama I don't think one should absolutely say he is going to Hell. So if your doing evil things, I think its ok to say your going to Hell, but I'm not so sure about saying that someone who is loving, kind, always helping people, and is overall more good than most christians is going to Hell.

If only evil were dealt with so simply by one coherent Christian Iconic text. UNfortunately that simply isn't the case and ultimately if any God, it's Giant Moth who has it right.  

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Eloise wrote: IF being the

Eloise wrote:

IF being the operative term here, No, it wouldn't be wrong but test the "if" for yourself. I'll help you. give me a quote with precisely such a statement in it.

A scenerio - A guy decides it would be fun to start killing everyone he meets, assuming someone says he is going to hell while he is still killing everyone he meets (and this person also knows for a fact the guy is guilty) Is it wrong to judge the guy and say he is going to hell?


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simple theist

simple theist wrote:
Eloise wrote:

IF being the operative term here, No, it wouldn't be wrong but test the "if" for yourself. I'll help you. give me a quote with precisely such a statement in it.

A scenerio - A guy decides it would be fun to start killing everyone he meets, assuming someone says he is going to hell while he is still killing everyone he meets (and this person also knows for a fact the guy is guilty) Is it wrong to judge the guy and say he is going to hell?

 I was actually asking for a "God said" quote, so this is kind of off base, but anyway, yeah that'd mean nothing much at all beyond the anger in which it was said, it's otherwise completely irrational, wouldn't it make more sense to damn him to gaol first? save someone some suffering.

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NOt sure what gaol is.

NOt sure what gaol is.

 

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. (HCSB)

 One of the Ten Commandments is Thou shall not kill.


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It seems that a lot of

It seems that a lot of discussion here concerning judgment, has actually been referring to stereotyping.

In Giant Moth's question he is concerned with people passing judgment, not stereotyping.

Let's take a look at the two definitions and compare them. Doing this will make sure that we are all on the same page.

 

Judgment:

  1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.
    1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
    2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
    3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See synonyms at reason.
  2. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.
  3. Law.
    1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.
    2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.
    3. A writ in witness of such an act.
  4. An assertion of something believed.
  5. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.
  6. Judgment The Last Judgment.


Stereotype:

  1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
  2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

[I highlighted the points I felt to be important] 

 

I understand Giant Moth's question be directed to things more along the lines of judgments, not stereotypes. Yet, as many of the disputes in this thread have been going, the dispute seems to be over stereotyping and its correctness and place in human interaction. 

Yet, a judgment such as, "You are an atheist. You must be going to hell." is not a mere stereotype. That is a judgment. If it was a stereotype concerning atheists you would say something alone the lines of, "You are an atheist. You belong to a group that doesn't believe in God." See the difference? 

The additional step that a judgment takes that a stereotype does not, is the imposition of a belief. Therefore, it is wrong to say forming "judgments" is a natural human process like stereotyping. I would venture to argue that in this context, between atheist and theist in a conversation, judging is not natural/correct. You can also extend this to other aspects of human interaction as well, not just atheist and theist interaction.

Stereotyping is forming beliefs about a person or thing possibly belonging to a certain group or class, such as "possibly dangerous person/object" or "possibly poisonous." I don't see classifying between people as "going to Hell" and "going to Heaven" as mere stereotypes as being a correct classification. Why? Well, that's what were discussing isn't it? One way of explaining it, could be that we could actually see through experience if something is dangerous or poisonous or not. We cannot test whether someone is going to Hell or Heaven no matter how hard we pray. If you believe in God, only he could know. The chance of us ever knowing the truth to such a judgment is 0. Therefore, why make it?  

As you may have gathered, I agree with Giant Moth that the big man should do the judging. I hope everyone can at least begin to focus their discussions further to judgment without conflating stereotype with judgment.    

 

 

 

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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jread wrote:   Yet, a

jread wrote:

 

Yet, a judgment such as, "You are an atheist. You must be going to hell." is not a mere stereotype. That is a judgment. If it was a stereotype concerning atheists you would say something alone the lines of, "You are an atheist. You belong to a group that doesn't believe in God." See the difference?


A stereotype must not always be true. All atheists don't believe in God. Thats the definition of atheist. If you call yourself an atheist, you don't believe in God.


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And in the case of a

And in the case of a judgement towards an atheist (or anyone for that matter who is not Christian) is not necessarily true either.

Your implication dripping from your post was amusing.

If you believe that way then more power to you. Enjoy damning more than half the world.  

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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jread wrote:

jread wrote:

And in the case of a judgement towards an atheist (or anyone for that matter who is not Christian) is not necessarily true either.

Your implication dripping from your post was amusing.

If you believe that way then more power to you. Enjoy damning more than half the world.

What I said was:

Quote:
If it was up to me, I'd let a whole lot more people in Heaven then most Christian's think God would. I think we (christians) can all agree that Hitler is probably going to Hell, but as for the Dalai Lama I don't think one should absolutely say he is going to Hell. So if your doing evil things, I think its ok to say your going to Hell, but I'm not so sure about saying that someone who is loving, kind, always helping people, and is overall more good than most christians is going to Hell.
I honestly have no clue what implication you are talking about. I think reading that it appears I implied an atheist might actually be able to make it to heaven. Unless your saying I was wrong in saying Hitler was going to Hell, in which case I would like to hear your defense of Hitler.

 

 

 


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Indeed. I badly

Indeed. I badly misinterpretted what you were saying in your reply to my post. Please accept this as an apology for my being wrong about what you meant.

Just curious, what did you mean in your reply to my post? 

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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jread wrote: Indeed. I

jread wrote:

Indeed. I badly misinterpretted what you were saying in your reply to my post. Please accept this as an apology for my being wrong about what you meant.

Just curious, what did you mean in your reply to my post?

Appology accepted.

You said

Quote:
If it was a stereotype concerning atheists you would say something alone the lines of, "You are an atheist. You belong to a group that doesn't believe in God."
. Saying an atheist doesn't believe in God is not a stereotype. A stereotype must be generally false. So a real example would be "You don't believe in God, therefore you are a murderer." The definition of atheist is one who doesn't believe in God, so it is not a stereotype to say "You are an atheist, therefore you don't believe in God." 


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Ah I see the problem. I'm

Ah I see the problem. I'm not saying that it is a stereotype, I meant to imply that "If" it was a stereotype, then it would look something like how I described. I was just trying to point out how, I see a mere grouping of an atheist with others of the same sort as a proper stereotype. Which could also be further seen as a "true" judgment.

But the point I was trying to make was that if you go beyond stereotyping and say something along the lines of, "If you're an atheist you're going to hell." then you would be doing something wrong/unnatural/incorrect. 

I think simple theist, we see eye-to-eye on this part of the discussion though. Thanks for accepting my apoloy btw.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat


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simple theist wrote:

simple theist wrote:

NOt sure what gaol is.

Jail, if you're from the US.

 

simple theist wrote:

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. (HCSB)

 

Ugh those confounded rewrites..

Okay that passage damns the judger right along with the judged, nice choice. LOL. But it's not any kind of monition really it's consolation: don't take hate to heart, remember he who hates has no age-during life left in him.

****

13Do not wonder, my brethren, if the world doth hate you;

14 we -- we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.

15 Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining,

16 in this we have known the love, because he for us his life did lay down, and we ought for the brethren the lives to lay down;

****

 

simple theist wrote:

One of the Ten Commandments is Thou shall not kill.

But where does it say hell there. Or were you referencing the passages to each other? If you were, it doesn't work, the verse from 1 John is encouraging the reader to love, not hawking fear.

Remedy:

14Afraid in Zion have been sinners, Seized hath trembling the profane: Who doth dwell for us -- consuming fire, Who doth dwell for us -- burnings of the age?

15Whoso is walking righteously, And is speaking uprightly, Kicking against gain of oppressions, Shaking his hands from taking hold on a bribe, Stopping his ear from hearing of blood, And shutting his eyes from looking on evil,

16He high places doth inhabit, Strongholds of rock [are] his high tower, His bread hath been given, his waters stedfast.

 

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wavefreak wrote: Brian37

wavefreak wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

And for the reasons I stated there is a problem with "The way you understand it".

Now, ask yourself NOT ME, but yourself this hypothetical question.

HYPOTHETICALLY, "If YOU were God" would you allow any child ever to be raped and murdered?

NOW. Remember, I am not asking you what God says or what God wants or what God does. And " I am not God" is not the issue either.

I AM ASKING YOU WHAT YOU WOULD DO(that is the only thing you need adress in your answer)

Yes or no? Would you allow a child to be raped or murdered if you had God's powers? A simple yes or no will sufice.

The hypothetical question is useless. It assumes things like omnibenevolence and other absolutes. This thread is about judgment, not suffering. All I offered was an observation about judgment. Nothing more.

I cannot answer your question. If I were god, this world would undoubtedly be more fucked up than it already is as I have scarcely the wisdom to run my own life.

THAT IS A DODGE AND AN UTTER COP OUT! 

You WONT answer my question. But I'll do it for you.

If you have any moral fiber at all, one shred, your answer should be, "If I were god there is no way I would allow a child to be raped or murdered". 

You dont want to answer that question because it shows the absurdity of claiming a god to be "all loving" and "all powerfull". I dont call a being allowing such horrors against a child "all loving" or "all powerfull".

Now, here is what you dont want to consider. Those horrible things are a statistical part of crime and an unfortunate part of reality. There is no need for a devil with a pitchfork rearanging the thoughts in someones head. Sickos commit these crimes for phycological reasons, not superstitious ones.

Bad happens, not as a result of a disimbodied boogieman down below. These horrible things are an unfortunate reality. Just because we call cancer natural, doesnt mean we want it affecting us and we certainly dont atribute cancer to Thor or Apollo. Crime has always been a part of human history. Sane people dont want crime affecting them.

So what is the best way to reduce and minimize horrors like child rape and murder? Use a ouiji board? Use a voodoo doll? Pray to Vishnu? NO, the best way to reduce crimes like this is to study past crimes, past perpitrators and educate children and parents on safty.

There is no need for Superman vs Kriptonite explinations as to why bad happens.

And this does have to do with judgement. Seeing the flaw in "all loving" and "all powerfull" there is no way I could stick my brain in a blender to consider worshiping a being who "judges" when it cant or wont stop a child from being harmed in such a horrific mannor. That would be like making Barny Fife head of the CIA.

"I'm not God" is what you coped out to and is not what I asked you.

I asked YOU what YOU would do.

Your answer should be:

"No I would not allow that if I were god."

Or 

"Yes, I would allow that if I were god." 

 

 

 

 

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simple theist wrote: NOt

simple theist wrote:

NOt sure what gaol is.

 

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. (HCSB)

One of the Ten Commandments is Thou shall not kill.

By the way, there has been large debate about the translations of the Bible (and other things).  For example, it is widely believed now that the commandment is actually "Thou shalt not murder."  One of the main reasons I have a hard time believing the bible is the word of God is because I have studied several foreign languages.  For example, Latin.  Anyone who has ever tried to translate Latin text into a coherent english sentence knows that something is lost in translation.  Some languages have a rather complicated sentence structure (or no structure at all).  The bible has been translated into so many languages just to get to me in English, I know it can't even be close to how it was intended to be written.  It's like playing telephone, only everyone says it in a different language.  I'm not saying that God is all about some killing, but that translation would mean that anyone who has ever hit a patch of black ice and killed someone in a car wreck disobeyed the commandment and will go to hell.  That just doesn't make any sense.  Therefore, judging others based on text that has been translated to the umpteenth power is a bad practice.  Of course we judge others constantly.  I'm doing it right now with some girl I work with.  But why would I judge someone for their sins when I know I have my own skeletons to dance with? 

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Brian37 wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

THAT IS A DODGE AND AN UTTER COP OUT!

You WONT answer my question. But I'll do it for you.

 

You can try, but it will be your answer, not mine.

Quote:

If you have any moral fiber at all, one shred, your answer should be, "If I were god there is no way I would allow a child to be raped or murdered".

Aspersions about my character are not helpful.

Quote:

You dont want to answer that question because it shows the absurdity of claiming a god to be "all loving" and "all powerfull". I dont call a being allowing such horrors against a child "all loving" or "all powerfull".

I don't understand the ideas of all loving or all powerful. I tend to accept the non-cognitivist position that god so defined is logically non-sensical.

 

Quote:

I asked YOU what YOU would do.

Your answer should be:

"No I would not allow that if I were god."

Or

"Yes, I would allow that if I were god."

You want to argue about that Christian "perfect" god. I don't. Sorry.


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Wavefreak:

Wavefreak:

If I may be so bold as to ask, what is your chosen religion? (Just curious. Feel free to tell me to back off or whatever). : )

 

edit:  Also, if you have already stated what your religion is and I didn't get it, let me know and I'll look up anything I don't know about it.

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Wishkah311

Wishkah311 wrote:

Wavefreak:

If I may be so bold as to ask, what is your chosen religion? (Just curious. Feel free to tell me to back off or whatever). : )

 

edit: Also, if you have already stated what your religion is and I didn't get it, let me know and I'll look up anything I don't know about it.

I suppose I have pantheistic tendencies. I have far many more questions than answers. I see contemporary organized religions  as fatally flawed. I consider alot of things as possible, but very little of which I am certain. I think this frustrates some of the members here because they think I'm dodging. It really comes down to a big fat "I don't know".

 

I grew up in Southern California and have been exposed to Eastern religions, Eckankar, and some fringe ideologies. I attended a fundamentalist bible college for a few semesters until I became so utterly appalled and disenchanted that I gave up on it (them?). They were as much a cult as anything they considered cultish.

My sig on my deviant art account (wavefreak.deviantart.com) says it pretty well.

"When God made me He didn't use a mold. I'm freehand baby!"

 


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wavefreak wrote: I suppose

wavefreak wrote:

I suppose I have pantheistic tendencies. I have far many more questions than answers. I see contemporary organized religions as fatally flawed. I consider alot of things as possible, but very little of which I am certain. I think this frustrates some of the members here because they think I'm dodging. It really comes down to a big fat "I don't know".

 

I grew up in Southern California and have been exposed to Eastern religions, Eckankar, and some fringe ideologies. I attended a fundamentalist bible college for a few semesters until I became so utterly appalled and disenchanted that I gave up on it (them?). They were as much a cult as anything they considered cultish.

My sig on my deviant art account (wavefreak.deviantart.com) says it pretty well.

"When God made me He didn't use a mold. I'm freehand baby!"

 

I can certainly relate.  I am a panentheist (in case you didn't already know).  Organized religion seems to have a couple of good ideas, but then they fall short for me.  Anyhow, nice to know I'm not the only less than traditional theist here.   

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Wishkah311 wrote: simple

Wishkah311 wrote:
simple theist wrote:

NOt sure what gaol is.

 

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. (HCSB)

One of the Ten Commandments is Thou shall not kill.

By the way, there has been large debate about the translations of the Bible (and other things). For example, it is widely believed now that the commandment is actually "Thou shalt not murder." One of the main reasons I have a hard time believing the bible is the word of God is because I have studied several foreign languages. For example, Latin. Anyone who has ever tried to translate Latin text into a coherent english sentence knows that something is lost in translation. Some languages have a rather complicated sentence structure (or no structure at all). The bible has been translated into so many languages just to get to me in English, I know it can't even be close to how it was intended to be written. It's like playing telephone, only everyone says it in a different language. I'm not saying that God is all about some killing, but that translation would mean that anyone who has ever hit a patch of black ice and killed someone in a car wreck disobeyed the commandment and will go to hell. That just doesn't make any sense. Therefore, judging others based on text that has been translated to the umpteenth power is a bad practice. Of course we judge others constantly. I'm doing it right now with some girl I work with. But why would I judge someone for their sins when I know I have my own skeletons to dance with?

Sorry, I simply used the first thing I grabbed. Also I think almost every translation I have says kill and not murder. I would also have to argue that in the car scenerio no one killed anyone. The only person I was judging was my mthical guy who started to kill everyone he met. If you kill everyone you meet, Im pretty sure your going to hell, but if your in a car and hit black ice, your not.


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simple theist wrote: Sorry,

simple theist wrote:
Sorry, I simply used the first thing I grabbed. Also I think almost every translation I have says kill and not murder. I would also have to argue that in the car scenerio no one killed anyone. The only person I was judging was my mthical guy who started to kill everyone he met. If you kill everyone you meet, Im pretty sure your going to hell, but if your in a car and hit black ice, your not.

 

I wasn't trying to be an ass about it or anything, just thought I'd put it out there.  As for the translation thing, I don't think anyone has a perfect translation.  That's why everyone's interpretation is different and everyone gets a little confused sometimes... As for judging others, well, it doesn't make sense to judge everyone else for their mistakes, interpretations, and lifestyles.  It isn't our place to "play God."  Of course we all judge others, but I try very hard not to judge whether or not someone will be "damned."  Except for Hitler, but he doesn't count... and Dahmer... and Stalin, okay fine, I do it too : P 

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simple theist wrote: jread

simple theist wrote:
jread wrote:

 

Yet, a judgment such as, "You are an atheist. You must be going to hell." is not a mere stereotype. That is a judgment. If it was a stereotype concerning atheists you would say something alone the lines of, "You are an atheist. You belong to a group that doesn't believe in God." See the difference?


A stereotype must not always be true. All atheists don't believe in God. Thats the definition of atheist. If you call yourself an atheist, you don't believe in God.
 

Yea what he was talking about was a tautology not a stereotype.  An example of a stereotype for atheists would be : Immoral,baby eating, satan worshippers.