I am Christian. Should I be atheist?
Offline Hello everyone, I found this site through luck I imagine, after witnessing the Youtube video. First of all as this is my first post I thought it prudent to introduce myself, I’m Tom, I’m from England and yes I am a Christian. First of all I’m interested in people’s comments on my perception of belief and of Christianity itself, I should be revising for my university entry examinations but I can never let a good discussion go! I'm 18 and while my experience of the world is finite, I have the intelligence and the will to be opinionated, and to be able to express my opinions and choose them freely. God is a private matter for me; I don’t speak of it to people except rare occasions such as now, my point being that how can you possibly deny the emotions and the feelings I get from my beliefs? The freedoms and values enjoyed in your countries and my country today are largely based upon those early Christian principles. It is not God who kills people, it is not love, anger or hatred that kills and destroys, but it is man. The will of a man surmounts all religion and thus he uses it to his own ends, men do not do the will of God, they did the will of man in God’s name.
You may have gathered that I’m no fan of organised religion, I belong to no church, and, I give the allegiance of my soul to God and that of my body to my country. Furthermore I believe in evolution, though I am not pretentious enough to stipulate that god doesn’t exist through theories such as these. It simply deepens the mystery, creates layers of knowledge and design that we are only just starting to understand. I have met many physicists who believe in God, they have seen to the ends of the universe and what they found is belief, belief in themselves, in mankind, and in god. Superstition kept people in line, yes fear of God, abused by the powers of the church, but this is again not god, not Christ this is mankind. You may preach humanity, its ideals and principles, and say that they are Bourne out of physiological necessity; you may say that God was used to explain thing science couldn’t and still is. But I put this to you. Would a scientific explanation of Love, and perhaps the response to the loss of Love lessen its impact upon you? Could you understand love and thus deny its significance, what would we become if we understood everything? Mankind isn’t a great species; it’s evolved to be a self-obsessed and morally and intellectually inept in the majority of cases, what gives us the right, what gives you the right to denounce the work of a man who has touched so many people’s lives? Deny the impact of Christ on the world nay on the individual and you deny your own self. Here’s a quote:
Matt. 6:5
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.This reiterates my point of belief being private and not an organised affair to me. I believe because it makes me a better person, it makes me as an individual at peace with myself. Are you all perfect? Do you feel you can reach perfection in your lifetime? No none of us are, the thought of a power, a force that is drives me forward to better myself, to never think too highly of myself, to put myself forward in helping others. Jesus Christ is God within me, deny him to me and you take my humanity, and leave me but an animal.
Cheers guys i'd love some feedback!
Take care
Tom
Should you be an atheist?
A better question is what proof outside of the Bible and testimonials do you have for a belief in god? I used to believe in Santa Clause when I was a child, and it made me feel good knowing that if I was "good" I would receive gifts on Winter Solstice (or you may call it X-Mas).
You need to remove sensationalism from logic, then things should make sense.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
If I didn't believe in the tooth fairy I'd stop brushing my teeth and lose them. If I didn't believe in Santa I wouldn't behave as well. If I didn't believe in the boogeyman I wouldn't be afraid to stay out all night. Get the idea? There is no evidence Jesus ever existed or that a God exists.
The trouble with born again Christians is they're even more annoying the second time around.
Sensationalism from logic? Logic is hard, cold and rigid. It conforms and always does what you want it to do. There is comfort in logic, in knowing. Men who know or who think they know believe themselves superior to those who don't, we've all taken comfort in logic (I've thought it myself). I don't sensationalise what I say, emotions are not logical, they cannot be rationalised, humans cannot rationalise why I believe or what I believe in, nor can they explain why my belief makes me the person I am. Oil doesn’t mix with water, nor does love with logic. A major issue no doubt.
Thanks for the post, Tom. I think you're touching on some valid issues here, and I think you're on track with some of it. Keep digging.
Should you become an athiest? I would say no, not unless you have experienced enough cognitive, emotional, intuitive, and experiencial dissonance so that you cannot help but to become atheist. I think you are right to acknowledge the validity of the feeling intellect. The worldview you should own is one that resonates the best with all the epistemological tools (the ways of knowing) that you possess: not merely empirical evidence which many suggest.
Ockham's Razor is only as sharp as you are.
Hey thanks all for responses, especially flatlanderdox, your reply summarised one of my key issues, much better then I could have hoped to do. (I ramble a lot) I loved ' epistemological' that has made my day, (I’m also a geek). But anyway! As flatlanderdox said, I believe that people cannot always look to logical solutions to situations where logic is removed. There is no logic in the love of men and women; there is no logic therefore in the love of God. (Why would he love a murderer in a logical world?) Let me use an allegory to try explain further, Dark matter for instance. Do you believe in it? Yes. Can you hold it, or see it? No. Infact it exists, how do we know it exists? Well by its influence on other spatial bodies. The same applies in essence with my theory on my own belief. I cannot see God, I cannot touch God nor can I ever hope to understand God. Yet I know he exists through the influence he has had on me, on my life and on the goodness I’ve done (and hope to do) and that of other people. A few bones or books doesn’t control my beliefs, my illogical soul does.
I disagree that logic doesn't apply in love - it should at least. For example, a woman who is beaten by her boyfriend should realize it doesn't make logical sense that he really loves her. And if someone is cheating that doesn't show love. Also, of course, you can't really logically love someone who doesn't exist. Again, as the Bible describes God (torturing those who displease him forever) any logic whatsoever would preclude any normal definition of "love."
The trouble with born again Christians is they're even more annoying the second time around.
Yes, perhaps logic should be bourne into love. We should love according to what is logically best for us, suitable for us. It just doesn’t work like that. That’s the complexity behind the human mind that logic will never be able to understand. Logical love (if it even exists) is not spontaneous; it is not essentially 'true' love. Able men are given a choice in life to do as they please, good or bad. Gods love for me is absolute, i have no fear of God, I’m in his love, that’s my point if you give yourself to him and him to you won’t be tortured. An 80 year life of goodness and humility in exchange for eternity of paradise, Is that such a bad deal? I do all my belief alone by the way, my friend’s don’t even know I’m religious; I investigate both aspects of the argument. My mind is open to science (mans best triumph and his worst) yet in the confines of my head, my heart I have my love for God. Unexplainable and illogical, though love is love when you know it, undeniable in its element.
"The same applies in essence with my theory on my own belief. I cannot see God, I cannot touch God nor can I ever hope to understand God. Yet I know he exists through the influence he has had on me, on my life and on the goodness I’ve done (and hope to do) and that of other people." - axarei lavan
Ya... I should have used sensualism: (philosophy) the ethical doctrine that feeling is the only criterion for what is good. You use sensualism to rationalize (employ logic or reason) your belief. (Hope that it's simpler to understand now.)
Thoughts on last part of quote:
Religious people are always giving 'god' credit for what they have done. Why can't you take credit for what you have done? It doesn't matter what has been done, good or bad, it's always attributed to 'god'. If that's the case, why would one need the 10 commandments, 'god' is just going to make things happen regardless, according to that logic.
Or do we believe in freewill now? And what influence does 'god' have on you? I used to be a christian (brainwashed at a young age), he never 'spoke' to me. I never felt 'his' presence. So are you saying that you have voices in your head that are influencing you, if so that is unhealthy mentally.
Final Point:
If your only reason for believing in 'god' is to feel good, then maybe heroin is for you.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
You start by asking if you should be an atheist but then the only argument you give for why you have your beliefs is that you are not hurting anyone by having them. If that’s your only reason for believing then yes you should be an atheist. If the reason is that it makes you feel good then I would still say be an atheist. Whenever you accept things that are counter factual you are opening the door for trouble and getting a warm fuzzy feeling is not a good reason to do that.
I'm calling it. Most theists when they post something like this, you know what happens. So i'm calling it, hope i'm wrong for a change.
"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken
Thank god i'm a atheist!
To answer your question. Yes, I personally think you should be an atheist, however, that's only relevant to me, not you. What you should ask yourself is this: Did Jesus conquor death for your sins? Did Jesus get nailed to a cross and rise from the dead? Do you believe that he worked the miracles that he did? IF you do believe in these, then you are a "christ follower" or "christian". If you are skeptical, don't know the answer then perhaps Christian isn't the right label for you.
I do question, however, why you based God on feeling good. I went to church all the time i grew up with my parents. Head coverings and all, and yes, there were times i thought i was close to God but... in truth, the most compelling reason to have God was because you had someone who loved you. Read the bible a bit closer and it's not really a god of love and mercy, it's simply a construct in your mind. The fact you don't go to church but experience a closeness to God simply means you are searching for something to identify with and trust in, but you are a skeptic of the bible by nature.
Food for thought but questioning is a great way to enlightenment. I respect your courage in this instrospection.
Mark Twain
Hi Drea and welcome to the forums.
When you get a chance, we'd love it if you'd hop over to General Conversation, Introductions and Humor and introduce yourself.
Rational Responders - atheist, atheism, agnostic.
Yes, perhaps logic should be bourne into love. We should love according to what is logically best for us, suitable for us. It just doesn’t work like that. That’s the complexity behind the human mind that logic will never be able to understand. Logical love (if it even exists) is not spontaneous; it is not essentially 'true' love. Able men are given a choice in life to do as they please, good or bad. Gods love for me is absolute, i have no fear of God, I’m in his love, that’s my point if you give yourself to him and him to you won’t be tortured. An 80 year life of goodness and humility in exchange for eternity of paradise, Is that such a bad deal? I do all my belief alone by the way, my friend’s don’t even know I’m religious; I investigate both aspects of the argument. My mind is open to science (mans best triumph and his worst) yet in the confines of my head, my heart I have my love for God. Unexplainable and illogical, though love is love when you know it, undeniable in its element.
i'm not here to deny the existance of god.. god may be out there, maybe not. I am just curious that why are you so sure that by believing that Jesus Christ, the son of god, will ensure you a ticket to heaven? Do you really strongly believe that jewish, muslim or buddihst will be burned in eternal hell fire after they die just because they are not christian?
my point is... why the christian holy bible?? when there is very high possibility that it was written by human being (and not words of god)? I am sure as a christian you have to believe that other religions are not the true religion from god. Why every religion (be it christianity or islam or whatever) has to deny other religions? based on what basis can you claim that your holy bible is the true "words" from god and not the muslim's quran or the jewish holy book?
If there is a god, do you really think he will let the good guy who happens to be non-christian go to hell? And don't you think it's a irony to god if he let a chirtsian serial killer go to heaven (just because he is a believer)?
I have to apologize first before i say this... but if god really needs us to acknowledge him as the omnipotent god in order to let us into the heaven, don't you think he is very insecure with himself? Don't you think If you want people to respect and believe in you, terrifying is not the solution??
In my opinion, if there is a god, non of the religions on earth that force people into believing him, are the true religion from god.
Here! - Here!
axarei lavan,
Then, Atheism is both a delusion and a religion. Secularists literally dominate Europe.
First off if you are a Christian, then read C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity. (Lewis being yet another great British Christian.) Just a note, Atheists surely would have never freed slaves. Remember, evolution promotes slavery.
Lewis was a great thinker that went from agnostic/atheist to Christian. Second stop believing the lie told long enough that Atheism is a rational belief, and that Christians are ignorant.
0 x 0 = Atheism.
Christians have a long history of great thinkers within the Christian Church movement, and yes, just like Atheists and Atheim, they have had a fair share of bad guys amongst them. Not as many as Atheism maybe, but some bad things were done by professing Christians throughout the ages.
I had an atheist over at DebatingChristianity.com come up with a figure of about one-million seven-hundred thousand victims of Christian promoted violence.
Lenin and Stalin with their Marxist Atheism driving their movement killed tens and tens and tens of millions of human beings that dissented of their belif-system. China's atheisys are not far behind. One can only imagine what has happened in other marxist (atheist) countries like Cuba, since as soon as the atheist takes over, we get no info allowed out on what is happening anymore.
Stay a questioning and thinking Christian, and join the long line of intelligent Christiana since the beginning of the Church culture.
And go to Church. You'll find one that suits your liking. One thing about modern-day Christianity, and unlike Atheism, it is wonderously free and diverse.
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
C.S. Lewis was a moron. And equating atheism with communism:
The trouble with born again Christians is they're even more annoying the second time around.
slumber77,
"In my opinion, if there is a god, non of the religions on earth that force people into believing him, are the true religion from god."
That was from you.
Could you please provide one statement in the New Testament writings - that are the current offerings of today - that "force" anyone into believing in God?
I have read that both Jesus and Paul said good things about non-believers.
I'll re-read again today (since it is a fats read) but I'm pretty sure that "forced belief" is not a Christian doctrine presented in the New Testament.
And, if a person doesn't believe in God or hell, the Christian belief-system shouldn't bother any skeptic or freethinker (who oddly, all think exactly the same) the way we see it does on college campuses, politics, or this website.
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
Couldn't have offered a better example of the 21st century "Freethinker" if I'd invented one. The bobbleheads never fail in entertaining.
Foshizzle.
Thanks Matt.
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
Welcome Tom, my fellow Englishman. I do not deny that religion has a lot of emotion attached, I would say you have to work out for yourself what you believe, criticise things, think about things, question yourself. If you remain religious so be it, but at least you will have tried. Which Uni are you going to?
Jacob,
The New Testament writers mention "working out your salavation" and "testing all things and holding fast to the truth."
A writer in the Tanakh (what we non-Judaiam folks call the Old Testament) writes that God said, "Come let us reason together."
Did you know that?
Since you were so good to me in curbing my emotional punch-backs (certainly not civil) could you help out your rather hysterical and incredibly emotional buds on the Freetrhinker/Atheist side?
Denigrating C.S. Lewis is not a good place to find a rational response.
Yours and Drea have been civil and rather mature in responses to the subject matter at hand. Would that it were more common in other non-godians.
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
Is there any particular reason that you're making disingenuious blanket statements about atheism?
Do you have anything to back up this opinion of yours?
I fail to see how anyone could allude to the fact that atheism is anything but diverse - the only thing atheists have in common is a lack of a belief in god. We differ on many other key issues, ideas, life style choices.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
One of the things I have observed about the theist side is that the mere difference of theological opinion can drive people to paroxysms of hatred and disengenous absurdity.
I can feel large clumps of my neurons commiting PCD apoptosis in shock, I can feel my IQ dip after reading that. I have studied evolutionary theory for 10 years now, and in my whole time studying the nuances of molecular evolution, natural selection and population dynamics, I have never heard that. I presume you have some evidence to back up this utterly absurd claim? I presume you have some expertise, some scientific education, some training, some credentials? I should wish to see these before you offer these utterly absurd diatribes. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on the forum.
-If it cannot be expressed in terms of mathematics, it isn't physics!
-Me
"Electricity will take the place of God. Let the peasant pray to electricity. He's going to feel the power of the central authorities more than that of heaven." -Vladimir Lenin 1914
I'm glad to hear that you dont follow cheerleading clubs out go gain members and political power.
However, the issue of any deity is simple, what evidence is there?
The Bible, or any holy book for that matter is not an objective book and certainly was not written as a biology textbook. The stories within discribe a hero who fights on behalf of a chosen people. The stories within contain fantastic claims that if you juxtipose next to Harry Potter you could see the "outside nature" or contrary to nature claims.
If it makes no sense that Peter Pan can litterally fly, why would believing that dirt "POOF" instantaniously turned into bone make any more sense? If you rightly reject that a deity named Thor made thunder and lighting why would your claims be immune to the same logical scrutiny?
It's not a matter of what you believe. Everyone here has heard all the claims before. The key is to ask yourself WHY you accept this and ask yourself WHY you reject the mythological claims of others.
When you understand why you reject, say for example, claims of multiple armed deities, you'll understand why we reject the claim of a disimbdodied being gettting a girl pregnant or human flesh surviving rigor mortis.
The only differeance between you and I is that I reject one more deity claim than you do. When you understand why you reject all those other claims you'll understand why we reject yours as well.
If oil flowed like deity claims gas would cost 10 cents a gallon.
I believe Way of the Master promotes this. Weeell, I've only seen one of their videos, but they seem to love using appeals to emotion. They promote that Darwin was a racists and sexists to undermine his theory (lalala... logical fallacy). I don't think I have to add, that about all people back then were racists and sexists, since it was before the emancipation of women and slaves. The moral zeitgeist was completely different.
Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant
Hey everyone, first of all I apologise for any incoherencies with my previous posts it was 3AM and I had an exam the next day, but now that’s over I believe I can think and type straight.
Jacob Cordingley hey, I’m headed to Manchester University to study business; hopefully it will do me some good!
In response to Brian37’s:
“The Bible or any holy book for that matter is not an objective book and certainly was not written as a biology textbook.”You have highlighted the fundamental chasm between science and belief or religion; this gap will never in our lifetimes be bridged. The same gap exists between science and literature, the logical and the emotional. The thing is, just because you haven’t the evidence for something, or that you don’t believe it, does that mean you should reject any possibility of its existence? By closing your mind to religion, to the possibility of the miracles described in holy books and scripture, you limit your perceptions of the universe as a human. You may accuse theists of being closed minded, yes many are, however the atheism that some of you may adhere to is as closed minded and these theists. For a start I do not believe in the majority of the Old Testament as the literal interactions of God and Mankind, instead I take the word of Jesus in his benevolence and live by those ideals and his example. If the divinity of Jesus is ever disproved it will not be the end of my faith in that man, his example led billions across the world to find comfort. Having belief in nothing but yourself leaves the soul cold and empty I find.
You make reference to Peter Pan, and yes you may find religion trivial, laughable and totally false. Yet the greatest thinkers of the 16th century knew the earth was flat, people were killed for saying the earth wasn’t the center of the universe! How could anything else be true? What a load of rubbish they’d say. They were proved wrong. I’m not saying God will ever be proved or disproved, I’m trying to say that blanket rejection of any theory, or religion or belief system closes your mind to the bigger issues that face humanity. You see Thor for example was the god of Thunder and Lightning or at least symbolised it as was Zeus of the Greek Pantheon; this has been scientifically explained and therefore credibility for those respective religions died out. But a God who stands for love, how can your logic possibly begin to understand that? Your logical way of needing logical evidence to give logical conclusion is based upon preconceptions, on flawed logic. Humans can never reach the pinnacle of existence that is attributed to god, they can never and will never understand as he is said to, and because of this the vain ambition of men to transcend their mortal coils drives them to deny things they cannot understand. You fear what you know not, yet you fear needlessly. I’m a person, a mere mortal I think, question and live as you do. Yet I am at peace with myself as I know I will never be perfect; my imperfections push me forward and through God and the example of Christ I will become a greater human then ever I could have been if I didn