True confession from the most vile of theists

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True confession from the most vile of theists

Ladies and gentlemen I would like you all to know that I’m starting this post off by first confessing I am a theistWink and wish to pass a new form of wisdom with no threat of indoctrination.

First of all let me clear the air by stating that most Theists do not think you lack morality. Here are the moral virtues that all of you naturally possess.

Integrity- Includes all spectrums of truthfulness and Justice

Empathy- includes all levels of compassion and understanding

Loyalty- Includes all levels of friendship and trust

Fairness- Includes all levels of equality and reciprocity

Gratitude- Includes all levels of Thankfulness and humility

Respect- includes all courteousness

Responsibility- Includes all levels of Honor and Valor

Resourcefulness- The many levels of tact and wisdom

Reverence- The respect of all life including your own

Unity- Closer connections with all living things

Kindness- All types of loving relationships with all mankind

Hope- The clearest view of optimism

________________________________________________________________________

Theists have but one thing that Atheists choose not to follow. They connect these virtues to an all-encompassing concept. I’ll provide and explain it and you can feel free to not believe it, because it’s your choice and you have the freedom to toss it aside, but at least try to understand it when you prepare for religious debate. Otherwise it sounds like a pointless argument because theists know that you have the moral virtues listed above so we don’t argue about that, we argue about the lack of understanding of the following concepts that the majority of THEISTS (not atheists) believe also exist. AND READ THE EXPLANATIONS BEFORE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS PLEASE. I don’t want to start an argument based on false premises

The Big ‘ole Missing Concept

Purity- The freedom from defilement that comes from a perceived taint or evil in our world

Whether it’s caused by perceived ignorance (Vedic schools of thought and Buddhism & Jainism), Devils (Abrahamic faiths: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity), Uncleanliness of body and spirit (Shintoism and some pagan schools of thought), Turbulence against the way of nature (Daoism), disconnection with the world around you (Most pagan schools of thought), or in some cases just downright lack of discipline (Confucianism) This perceived taint is characterized in religion as the main cause of all misery in the world.

It is perceived that from this taint all conflicts come before us and the best medicine to treat this taint is religion. All religions are different in how they treat this perceived taint and most Abrahamic faiths ask you to turn to God as the treatment, as a way to remove this said taint. The Vedic schools of thought look for introspection and wisdom-seeking (Buddhism and Jainism) and duty (Hinduism). The Shintoists and some Pagan schools of thought require ceremonial purification, prayer, and some exorcism. Daoism seeks to restore a persons flow into the Dao, or way, of nature. Most pagan schools of thought prescribe a reconnection to the natural world around you through many gods (which sometimes are merely used as archetypes and not real physical beings and sometimes not) Confucianism looks to the specific Confucian moral code of law.

Once this taint is removed from the being they become the pure human that they seek to become.

This often begs the question: If the above is true, then why do so many Theists commit acts of horrid inhumane indecency?

My answer is that they haven’t truly purified themselves to their whole potential and blame others and their own faith in response for their own perceived failures. My reason for this answer is that most of these terrorists seek to encompass their hatred for the “so-called” impurity in others when they really see the impurity within themselves. Fear may also be a big problem.

Atheists are lucky in the sense that they see the world as perfect the way it is, and I cannot imagine how liberating it must feel to see the world as it merely is, but in my opinion cruelty, hate, and all ills in the world seem to me as an example of taint and my personal feeling is that taint along with purity do indeed exist.

Using all the 12 Great Virtues of Man that you already have, in my opinion, will get you to that state of purity regardless of what faith you have. And all of the Prophets have preached these virtues at least once in their texts, and I’ll not be the last to admit that Atheists have the greatest of all teachers: Experience. This however doesn’t downplay the other examples from theism and other people’s experiences. Kill the Ego a bit, read the texts thoroughly, and you’ll see a huge pattern between ALL the prophets and religions of the world. They all advocate the 12 virtues in a unique balance. If you follow the virtues for their own sake with all your heart you’ll feel it too: Purity. I bet you all will feel it within your hearts whether or not you believe God exists and if you still don’t believe in gods, it doesn’t matter. At least you do not have to fear him/her/it like some do and you’ll still feel that purity in your life. Feel free to ask any questions, I might have some answers and I’ll be free to answer, though most of you will likely know it for yourself. This is my loving message to you all. You are already saved. Go in peace my friends and if you agree, spread the message.

Smile


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Thank for writing these

Thank for writing these thoughtful words. And yet...regardless of how much it is my intention to read and respond, there is one thing on this forum I cannot stand. Black highlights. Honestly, it looks glo-in-the-dark. I assure you, the first unspoken rule of the forum is to never use the highlighters. People hate it. It's hard to read. It gives me eye strain. The second they see it, they will click the back key and never return.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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No problem. I'll pay

No problem. I'll pay attention next time... I'm new to this forum so I'm just gettin the hang of it... Thank you for the tip! Let me repost it without the highlights...

Ladies and gentlemen I would like you all to know that I’m starting this post off by first confessing I am a theist and wish to pass a new form of wisdom with no threat of indoctrination.

 

First of all let me clear the air by stating that most Theists do not think you lack morality. Here are the moral virtues that all of you naturally possess.

Integrity- Includes all spectrums of truthfulness and Justice

Empathy- includes all levels of compassion and understanding

Loyalty- Includes all levels of friendship and trust

Fairness- Includes all levels of equality and reciprocity

Gratitude- Includes all levels of Thankfulness and humility

Respect- includes all courteousness

Responsibility- Includes all levels of Honor and Valor

Resourcefulness- The many levels of tact and wisdom

Reverence- The respect of all life including your own

Unity- Closer connections with all living things

Kindness- All types of loving relationships with all mankind

Hope- The clearest view of optimism

________________________________________________________________________

Theists have but one thing that Atheists choose not to follow. They connect these virtues to an all-encompassing concept. I’ll provide and explain it and you can feel free to not believe it, because it’s your choice and you have the freedom to toss it aside, but at least try to understand it when you prepare for religious debate. Otherwise it sounds like a pointless argument because theists know that you have the moral virtues listed above so we don’t argue about that, we argue about the lack of understanding of the following concepts that the majority of THEISTS (not atheists) believe also exist. AND READ THE EXPLANATIONS BEFORE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS PLEASE. I don’t want to start an argument based on false premises

  The Big ‘ole Missing Concept

Purity- The freedom from defilement that comes from a perceived taint or evil in our world

 Whether it’s caused by perceived ignorance (Vedic schools of thought and Buddhism & Jainism), Devils (Abrahamic faiths: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity), Uncleanliness of body and spirit (Shintoism and some pagan schools of thought), Turbulence against the way of nature (Daoism), disconnection with the world around you (Most pagan schools of thought), or in some cases just downright lack of discipline (Confucianism) This perceived taint is characterized in religion as the main cause of all misery in the world.

It is perceived that from this taint all conflicts come before us and the best medicine to treat this taint is religion. All religions are different in how they treat this perceived taint and most Abrahamic faiths ask you to turn to God as the treatment, as a way to remove this said taint. The Vedic schools of thought look for introspection and wisdom-seeking (Buddhism and Jainism) and duty (Hinduism). The Shintoists and some Pagan schools of thought require ceremonial purification, prayer, and some exorcism. Daoism seeks to restore a persons flow into the Dao, or way, of nature. Most pagan schools of thought prescribe a reconnection to the natural world around you through many gods (which sometimes are merely used as archetypes and not real physical beings and sometimes not) Confucianism looks to the specific Confucian moral code of law.               

Once this taint is removed from the being they become the pure human that they seek to become.

This often begs the question: If the above is true, then why do so many Theists commit acts of horrid inhumane indecency?

My answer is that they haven’t truly purified themselves to their whole potential and blame others and their own faith in response for their own perceived failures. My reason for this answer is that most of these terrorists seek to encompass their hatred for the “so-called” impurity in others when they really see the impurity within themselves. Fear may also be a big problem.

Atheists are lucky in the sense that they see the world as perfect the way it is, and I cannot imagine how liberating it must feel to see the world as it merely is, but in my opinion cruelty, hate, and all ills in the world seem to me as an example of taint and my personal feeling is that taint along with purity do indeed exist.

 Using all the 12 Great Virtues of Man that you already have, in my opinion, will get you to that state of purity regardless of what faith you have. And all of the Prophets have preached these virtues at least once in their texts, and I’ll not be the last to admit that Atheists have the greatest of all teachers: Experience. This however doesn’t downplay the other examples from theism and other people’s experiences. Kill the Ego a bit, read the texts thoroughly, and you’ll see a huge pattern between ALL the prophets and religions of the world. They all advocate the 12 virtues in a unique balance. If you follow the virtues for their own sake with all your heart you’ll feel it too: Purity. I bet you all will feel it within your hearts whether or not you believe God exists and if you still don’t believe in gods, it doesn’t matter. At least you do not have to fear him/her/it like some do and you’ll still feel that purity in your life. Feel free to ask any questions, I might have some answers and I’ll be free to answer, though most of you will likely know it for yourself. This is my loving message to you all. You are already saved. Go in peace my friends and if you agree, spread the message.            

 

_____


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It appears to still have

It appears to still have the ugly highlighting. Your writing should look like mine if you've done it correctly...

Also, as you are the OP, you have the power to edit the Original Post on this thread. In the top middle, there is an option in a box saying edit. Click on it to change the original post. No need to repost it. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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I'm not too familiar with

I'm not too familiar with BBCode tags and don't know th color codes, you think you can help me out a bit and give me the right color codes? I'm more familiar with HTML coding.

_____


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Did you try copy and paste

Did you try copy and paste into notepad? that should remove any other formatting then copy and paste it back.

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fixed it. Sorry about the

fixed it. Sorry about the trouble. How embarrasing! I'd like to hear what you all think so far because my list may be far from complete. Help me find if there are any more virtues we may add that I might have accidentally left out. I'm still studying myself into ethics and want to add input into it, thus I request a bit of feedback if you can. It would greatly help Smile 

_____


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how did you fix it? just

how did you fix it? just curious because i don't know bbcode either.


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Good post.As it happens I

Good post.
As it happens I think that purity is actually a perversion of moral thinking rather than an ideal and I try to avoid puristic thinking where I can. I think that all forms of idealism can be bad. Obviously we need to have some ideals because we want the world to be a better place, but 'purity' is the sort of ideal that becomes demanding and nitpicky.

When I look back at my life, and at the moments in my life when I feel the most 'pure' about, it's at times when I had no concept of purity or any ideals on my mind, I was just there in the moment, enjoying life as it was. I think that this is what eastern religions/philosophies emphasise when they talk of letting go of attachment and ideals in order to become pure.

This isn't an adovcation of ditching morals and self-critical thinking as these things are necessary for a practical life, but if you're on a search for purity then you must let go of these things.


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bump!

bump! Smiling


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Actually in the preachings

Actually in the preachings of the sermon at Deer Park, Siddhartha Gautama confirmed the existance of suffering (dukkha) and proposed that the alleviation of that suffering could be acheived by disposing of the selfishness that humans tend to act on. That the dwelling on unneeded desires can be quelched by following the eightfold path. Buddhism follows the same ideal that the whole world has the possibility to become "pure" and enlightened.

 

Purity isn't a dirty word, I still think everyone can acheive it. I also think that it is psychologically healthy to engage in religious thought and contemplation. You're correct however that Buddhism proposes that people do NOT take any religious teachings to far to the point that they cannot get out of the routine and enjoy life. To add to your above comment; that quiet reflection you mentioned when you clear your mind and are not reflecting on Purity is typical "insight-seeking" meditation very common in buddhist practice. Consider looking Buddhism up as a philosophy, you might be surprised how much you'd like it. Theravada buddhism can work for good philosophical thought without much mysticism. even the idea of "rebirth" in theravada buddhism can be seen as an awakening of ideas rather than a physical death and rebirth. 

I hope this helped.

Peace.

_____


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GGalvez wrote: Actually in

GGalvez wrote:

Actually in the preachings of the sermon at Deer Park, Siddhartha Gautama confirmed the existance of suffering (dukkha) and proposed that the alleviation of that suffering could be acheived by disposing of the selfishness that humans tend to act on. That the dwelling on unneeded desires can be quelched by following the eightfold path. Buddhism follows the same ideal that the whole world has the possibility to become "pure" and enlightened.


I still hold that it is a bad way to look at things.
When you think of things in terms of purity, you are set to notice, and be affected by, the impurities. If this is so, the concept of purity is a source of impurity because it encourages psychological nitpicking and dissatisfaction. I presume that Buddha was talking to people who already had the ideal of purity.

Quote:

To add to your above comment; that quiet reflection you mentioned when you clear your mind and are not reflecting on Purity is typical "insight-seeking" meditation very common in buddhist practice. Consider looking Buddhism up as a philosophy, you might be surprised how much you'd like it.


Hehe! You perhaps noticed I had a little Buddhist influence by my use of words like 'attachment'. I have a book on Buddhism which has been very influential on my outlook on life. It's a good book which deals with common sense philosophy rather than unloading metaphysical superstitions.

Overall, I think that Buddhism over-simplifies things a little and can also idealise things a bit. I think it's a philosophy we can all learn from, but I wouldn't want to subscribe to it totally. So what sort of theist are you? Any particular religion?


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I'd love to tell you, but

I'd love to tell you, but even I'm a little uncertain myself Smiling. I have read almost all the holy texts that have been available from Asatru to Zorastrian texts and what suits me best so far has been a bit of Buddhist and animistic influences.

 

I believe there are things by science that we can't explain yet, I think there are some things we haven't breached as humans. We may find theanswers one day, but upon waiting I do not deny the possible existance of Gods and spirits, but I don't adhere strongly to any doctrine at all. Call me a believer of Theism in general. Smiling

 

I think that it's too soon to deny any possible idea. Maybe there is no Gods at all, but even then, personally I think we all may be part of something much greater, we just haven't reached that point of knowing or understanding what that purpose is. So we should take it one step at a time.

 

The Jungian "collective unconscious" theory addresses why across cultures we all (people) seem to have certain archetypes and ideals that are the same. I find it facinating, really. Archetypes like "the Hero", "the Anima", "the Shadow", and "the Ideal". They call into question the deepest thoughts within our own subconscious. I think that in the end what really counts as I said before are the 12 virtues above. Purity whether it exists or not is measured more by them.

 

Each virtue is equallly important and we must be careful to make sure that we address all of them within ourselves. Without them, we can fall prey to mental disorder and even away from our own humanity. Humans have a tendancy to localize their energy to one of these virtues strongly and may lose perspective to the rest. Localization sometimes varies between culture and between people, but I think what really will help is to seek a balance.

 

So let us hope that we may someday find the answers, that we may end this division amongst us so that we may find Peace.

 

Just a prayer that we may someday find peace

_____


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Quote: Purity- The freedom

Quote:

Purity- The freedom from defilement that comes from a perceived taint or evil in our world

 Whether it’s caused by perceived ignorance (Vedic schools of thought and Buddhism & Jainism), Devils (Abrahamic faiths: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity), Uncleanliness of body and spirit (Shintoism and some pagan schools of thought), Turbulence against the way of nature (Daoism), disconnection with the world around you (Most pagan schools of thought), or in some cases just downright lack of discipline (Confucianism) This perceived taint is characterized in religion as the main cause of all misery in the world.

 

Seems to me most of this can be summed up as UNFOUNDED, TRADITIONAL, UNDESERVED AND SELF-INFLICTED GUILT.

 I do apprieciate your sentiments, I honestly do, but what you are telling me I'm missing is what I've worked so hard to let go.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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It could be summed up as

It could be summed up as guilt, but depending on how you look at it.  I personally think you've nothing to be guilty for. I never said you were missing anything. I said you're likely on the right path if you feel comfortable with yourself and your virtues. Theists just follow the virtues with purity as the final goal in mind. Don't worry about it at all. You're in good shape.

 

Peace.

_____


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i think the key word here

i think the key word here is "perceived". the need to purify yourself can be weighed by what your particular religion has deemed evil. i.e. the christian perceptions of sex, masturbation, homosexuality. if you truly subscribe to the strict christian admonishment of certain sexual behaviors, you will definitely see these things as a threat to your purity. but not all theists hold these dogmas, and so the lens through which they perceive impurity varies among them.

i appreciate your kind comments, by the way Smiling

 

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Yellow_Number_Five

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:

 

Seems to me most of this can be summed up as UNFOUNDED, TRADITIONAL, UNDESERVED AND SELF-INFLICTED GUILT.

I do apprieciate your sentiments, I honestly do, but what you are telling me I'm missing is what I've worked so hard to let go.


Actually, you completely misunderstood him.
Although he's read many texts on religion, you can see that he's interpreted them through Buddhist philosophy. In this philosophy, impurities are what causes disatisfaction and we are encouraged to use common sense to see what they are and let go of them.
The bit in bold would be an example of impurity, and you did the Buddhist thing in letting it go. That's right biatch! You're an implicit Buddhist whether you realise it or not! Sticking out tongue

I think that the main point to be said against his philosophy is that once you consciously think of things in terms of purity, that in itself is a form of impurity because it encourages disatisfaction.
In short, you can think about purity or be pure, but certainly not both at the same time! Hence we should strike it off our list of moral constraints.


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GGalvez wrote:

GGalvez wrote:

It could be summed up as guilt, but depending on how you look at it. I personally think you've nothing to be guilty for. I never said you were missing anything. I said you're likely on the right path if you feel comfortable with yourself and your virtues. Theists just follow the virtues with purity as the final goal in mind. Don't worry about it at all. You're in good shape.

 

Peace.

I agree that it can be summed up as guilt and I also think that is because guilt's precisely what the Gautama was getting at. The human conscience can be ignored but the worst of all suffering comes pretty directly from that ignorance. The conscience is a beautiful thing. If you supress the instinct to follow conscience the guilt you force down won't stay down you will continue to express it in a covert way because that is the nature of humanity, and it gets suffering.

Purity is an idealism and I agree, if anything, it is made up of the principle virtues you put in your OP, especially integrity and kindness. I don't think idealism is a bad thing IMO if anything should be a religion for humanity it's conscientious idealism but thats just MHO.

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I think you over-estimate

I think you over-estimate the coherence and correctness of our conscience. Psychological studies show that the commands that our conscience makes of us are not necessarily moral at all. They tend to be drilled in through our upbringing, based on the commands of our 'superiors' and can often have immoral content.

For instance, a person brought up by racists will likely have a conscience that give racist commands. Look at the Phelpses - they genuinely believe what they do to be right, and not doing it would be to go against their conscience.


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Strafio wrote:

Strafio wrote:
I think you over-estimate the coherence and correctness of our conscience. Psychological studies show that the commands that our conscience makes of us are not necessarily moral at all. They tend to be drilled in through our upbringing, based on the commands of our 'superiors' and can often have immoral content. For instance, a person brought up by racists will likely have a conscience that give racist commands. Look at the Phelpses - they genuinely believe what they do to be right, and not doing it would be to go against their conscience.

Ahh yes The Phelpses I saw an interview debate on youtube recently, I felt dumber for having watched it. I don't think they are an example of people following their conscience, they are more, to me, the example of people who have choked on their guilt in the way I was trying to describe there, and now are just wanting to throw off guilt onto everyone else all day and night cause they are drowning in it (ie It's all your fault. God Hates you because you don't feel my shame). Noone can really tell from the "out here" of their lives what that family may have made enemies of their consciences doing, but I'd take a wild stab in the dark and say if they started out living basic Evangelical Christian lifestyles that probably had a lot to do with it.

I do understand what you mean by saying I'm overstating the coherence of human conscience, though. I tend to believe it starts out healthy and easy to undertsand in our young lives, but it do I agree once it is twisted and bent all out of shape there seems to be no going back for that person. Pardon me for introducing more theology into my argument but I think that is the reason why the theme of forgiveness is included so strongly in the Christian story. It represents the way of going back to that childhood innocence of a healthy conscience which you can work with, not against, but this is something also twisted out of shape by believers, IMO, so I should probably qualify by saying that a bit better. What I think is that by offering forgiveness through their religion those folk were trying to express advocacy of the process of facing your guilt to restore your conscience. Take the Phelpses for example, thay placard their guilt and then turn it projectively away from them where instead the idea of forgiveness suggests tat you don't have to do that and moreover it's not the right way to deal with it. It's unnatural. In the trust that there is forgiveness you can turn the placard to face you and accept that you did wrong, that your conscience spoke against your actions. I think tha perhaps even the most incoherent conscience can respond to this positively simply by accepting not the guilt, exactly, but the ownership of the problem, and then passing over the guilt to deal with the problem in a clearerheaded fashion. So the idea of forgiveness I think is to remove the guilt itself so that you can focus clearly on the problem thinking behind the errancy of your ways instead.

If I go a little deeper into the theology I think that the verse about the holy spirit balsphemy (translated literally) elaborates on this. It says plainly if you speak evil against the holy spirit then you have not forgiveness. It never literally says you won't ever be forgiven, it plainly says on the one hand you have forgiveness on the other hand, forgiveness is not what you have, but instead danger of age-enduring sorrow. I'm not saying that conscience is the holy spirit, I'm more saying that conscience is a part of the encompassing idea it stands for in the text. I feel the best understanding of this verse is if you have done wrong against others then you can be forgiven you can face it with integrity and say No I won't do that any more, but you aren't forgiven if you haven't stopped wronging your own best nature, frankly, you can't be forgiven, you can't go back to a clear and healthy relationship with your own conscience so long as you continue to deny the truth it plainly tells you about yourself.

I hope that wasn't too waffly. Smiling

 

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Forgiveness is only

Forgiveness is only necessary if you feel you've wronged someone.
In the case of real people, if I wrong them then I can feel like I need forgiveness. However, the only way you feel you need forgiveness from a 'God' is if someone convinces you of the guilt through their theology.

Although Christians claim you are forgiven, this forgiveness seems very conditional and still implies that you aren't worthy and aren't doing well enough... it still entails a kind of guilt...
That's why letting go of religion is so liberating.


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Strafio wrote: Forgiveness

Strafio wrote:
Forgiveness is only necessary if you feel you've wronged someone. In the case of real people, if I wrong them then I can feel like I need forgiveness. However, the only way you feel you need forgiveness from a 'God' is if someone convinces you of the guilt through their theology.

 

I'm not sure I agree there. It seems like you're saying that people don't innately have desire for a sense of conciliable closure and I wonder what you base that on. I wholeheartedly agree it isn't necessary for the human to project the source of this resolve into an absolute being, but I won't say that means that we don't need the resolve itself and I am quite sure humanity is capable generating and maintaining it's own burden of guilt in the complete absence of religion. Could you say you've never benefited something at the expense of an unscrupulous act on this planet, or at the expense of this planet itself aka Global warming? Certainly noone can; and without invoking any religious qualifier, we've all complicited some guilt for ourselves and we are regularly made aware of it so why would we need any religion in order to be affected by that in our rational senses. 

 

Strafio wrote:

Although Christians claim you are forgiven, this forgiveness seems very conditional and still implies that you aren't worthy and aren't doing well enough... it still entails a kind of guilt...

 

Frankly I agree there, the christian tenet of forgiveness IMNSHO is a vulgar distortion of a plainly decent principle. Not to mention indecently self-contradictory ie you are worthy of forgiveness therefore you are unworthy, it's a grotesque mind contortion of the most insidious degree. You'd have to ask forgiveness for even considering something so internally destructive to your Lord's creation. 

It is my view that guilt of that kind is irrational and unnatural and I agree that it is best let go of, that doing so is liberating. But at the same time I think that, for many, a realistic and rational concept of forgiveness as a resolve of the psyche with its calm state of conscience may be a necessary replacement.

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