I found this example of Theist violence against Atheist just becasue of non-belief.

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I found this example of Theist violence against Atheist just becasue of non-belief.

I found this article for another thread when a theist asked for "one example"(in a rather arrogant tone) of a theist's violence against a non-believer, strictly because they were atheist.

I know the initial argument from theists will be the 'no true scotsman fallacy', I don't buy that one, please don't use it.

I don't think there is an atheist here that will deny that Stalin or Pol Pot were atheist, rather we will argue that the reason those leaders committed atrocities was because of socio-political issues, or power mongering egotistical reasons. Not in the name of atheism.  

This story on the other hand illustrates a theist acting on theistic reasoning, committing a crime endorsed in parts of the bible, quran, and in many church's histories. The act of killing an infidel is even still 'respected' in many places around the world.

 

THE MURDER OF LARRY HOOPER

By Arlene-Marie

December 20, 2005
(Edited for punctuation and clarity.)

On October 18, 2004, Arthur Shelton, a self described Christian and Eagle Scout, murdered his friend and roommate, Larry Hooper, because Hooper didn't believe in God.

On December 18, 2005, after many months of postponements, Arthur Shelton, with his defense attorney, Seymour Swartz, appeared at the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice in Detroit, Michigan, before Judge Gregory D. Bill to face charges of murder in the first degree brought by Assistant Prosecuting Attorney, Christina Guiruis.

The trial began with the taped phone call Arthur Shelton placed to the Taylor police department in Taylor, Michigan, October 18, 2004, at precisely 12:44 AM. Shelton sounded calm and pridefull when he told the dispatcher he had just shot "the devil himself" with a revolver and a shotgun because "he (Hooper) didn't believe in God." Shelton told the dispatcher he was "still armed and ready to shoot again in case he moves. I want to make sure he's gone." When the dispatcher asked how many times he shot the victim Shelton replied, "hopefully enough."

Throughout the 15 minute phone call Shelton often repeated, "I'm a Christian and an Eagle Scout and I wouldn't lie," and "don't worry about me, I'm fine, but he's the devil." The dispatcher struggled to persuade Shelton to lay down his weapon and go outdoors with his arms raised. Shelton resisted, as he feared Hooper might not be "dead enough", but eventually complied.

Dead enough was an understatement. When the police arrived they were confronted with the grizzly scene of Hooper sitting upright on the couch with his head blown away and his brain laying on his hand. The autopsy report presented by the prosecutor was gruesome to be sure, but, for the record, Larry Hooper tested negative for all narcotics and alcohol.

Testimony by the arresting officer and the officers transporting Shelton to the police station revealed that while the officers were interested in gathering details about the incident, Shelton was obsessed with talking about God, the Eagle Scouts and stating he "would not talk to anyone who didn't believe in God but that he would talk to the police because he felt they believed in God."

On the second day of the trial the court played the videotape of the late night interrogation with Arthur Shelton. He appeared calm, cooperative and enjoyed the cookies and milk he was served. Once again Arthur was obsessed about talking about God and the Eagle Scouts. He stated he "was not sorry for a second that he killed Hooper." He stated, "In the eyes of the law I was wrong and will probably spend the rest of my life in prison, but in the eyes of God I have killed an evil person -- the devil himself." And when Arthur took the witness stand in his own defense he reiterated much of the same ideas.

Day three of the trial we heard summary arguments. The defense had little problem proving that Arthur is obsessed with religion, God and Eagle Scouts and pleaded for a verdict of not guilty due to insanity. The prosecution had little problem proving that Arthur was competent, knew the difference between right and wrong and called for a verdict of guilty of murder in the first degree. As this was a wavered trial Judge Bill rendered his verdict quickly -- guilty of second-degree murder with mental illness.

On December 19, 2005, we returned to Judge Bill's court to witness sentencing of Arthur Shelton. The prosecution asked for the 'high end' of punishment - 25 to 45 years, while the defense was still pleading for not guilty due to insanity or, at the very most, a soft sentence at the 'low end' of punishment 15 to 22 years. Judge Bill invited Shelton to make a statement and after fumbling for words Shelton stated he was sorry that Larry was dead but he did a job that had to be done. He stated that he actually, "saw fire and smoke coming from Larry's eyes and knew he was the devil himself."

Judge Bill proceeded to tenderly read letters written to him from Shelton's family members pleading for leniency. Shelton sat facing the audience and blew kisses to his tearful and sometimes sobbing family. In the end, the now stern-faced Judge Bill pronounced sentencing -- 25 to 45 years. Shelton was stunned and tried to negotiate the sentence stating, "I'm 50 years old and that is as good as a life sentence." Judge Bill responded, "Mr. Shelton you gave Larry Hooper a life sentence by committing one of the most heinous murders to come before my court." (In a private conversation, the prosecutor, Ms Guirguis, explained that Michigan law requires that Shelton must serve 25 years before being eligible for parole.)

I add now a disgusting chain of events that took place in the courtroom, the hallways, the lobby of the court building, the staircase outside of the courthouse and even the ladies bathroom. George Shiffer and myself attended day one of the trial. Upon arrival we were asked who we were and I gave the court my American Atheist business card. Word that we were Atheists traveled fast in this court room that offered very limited seating and the only others in attendance were 11 members of Shelton's family who immediately began taunting George and me with "the people from hell, evil, and devils." At breaks they waited for us in the hall and continued with more of the same while adding "God loves you" and blowing us kisses and shoving their crosses (worn on chains around their necks) in our faces. Several of the women even followed me into the bathroom and did their best to intimidate me with their crosses. Through it all George and I never flinched, but at the conclusion of the day I reported this taunting to the Officer of the Court who admitted that they were aware of the problem and escorted us to the elevator, past and to the disappointment of the waiting group of 'good Christians'.

On Day two when George and I, together with Joe Milon, entered the court room the taunting began immediately. Within an hour the Judge announced that those making gestures and faces had better cease or they would be removed. For the balance of the day the Christians wore their neck crosses on their backs, as we were seated in the back row, while constantly flopping them about with their hand. When we returned from lunch (without court escort) the Christians were waiting for us on the seventh floor and lunged at us with small signs they had painted -- 'Jesus lives', 'God loves you' -- and, again, thrusted their crosses within 2 or 3 inches from our noses. Tempers flared and a brief shouting match began. Brief because the court officers were there in a flash.

Day three found Atheist Lee Helms in the same taunted position of the previous days though he was not known to the court or the Christians. At the conclusion of the day an officer of the court detained him stating they have been having trouble with 'those people' (Christians) and escorted him to the elevators.

Even with all that behind us, December 19th, the day of sentencing, was still a horrific experience for myself, George Shiffer, Joe Milon, Lee Helms and Marty Maier. When leaving the courtroom the 'Christian' Shelton family lay in wait for us in the hallway. Their tears dried, they surrounded us shouting these comments: "The one good thing of all of this is that another Atheist is dead and the world is better off for it" and "The only good Atheist is a dead Atheist."


Submitted by:

Arlene-Marie
Michigan State Director
American Atheists
amarie@atheists.org
www.michiganatheists.org

O Box 0025
Allen Park, MI 48101

 


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Did they do a phsycological

Did they do a phsycological exam?


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This story disturbs me.  I

This story disturbs me.  I just spent the last 30 minutes trying to find additional information on it and came up with zilch.  Here are my thoughts (keep in mind that it is late and I am tired):

  1. If they were roommates and friends, how did it escalate to this point?  Wouldn't Mr. Shelton have known Mr. Hooper was an atheist?  If he did know, then what caused him to snap like that?
  2. Other than his psycho family, did Mr. Shelton have other friends and/or a job?  There was no mention of this in the article and I suppose it isn't all that significant.  Usually, though, some co-worker or boss gets interviewed/deposed as a character witness - but I could be wrong.
  3. As the Cpt. asked, was there a psychological assessment done? 

 BGH - I know you don't have the answers to these questions, but I am hoping that anyone in the Michigan area will either remember this story or be able to find some info on it.  I tried searching archives and did not find anything from Detroit News, but NewspapersArchive.com came back with a bunch of hits...but they want to charge for the info.  I am cheap.

Just out of curiosity, are there other stories like this?   


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I'm thinking that this story

I'm thinking that this story is fake. I mean obviously some people are crazy but with the lack of info (I couldn't find anything either) I think that this is just an atheist smear. Though the court does exist but I think it deals with DWI's and the like

ttdm.blogspot.com


aiia
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Looks like it is

Looks like it is true:

Michigan prison

Prisoner - ARTHUR EUGENE SHELTON

Current Status: Prisoner Earliest Release Date: 10/17/2031
Assigned Location: Earnest C. Brooks Correctional Facility Maximum Discharge Date: 10/17/2051

Sentence 1
Offense: Homicide - Murder, Second Degree Minimum Sentence: 25 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

Sentence 2
Offense: Weapons - Felony Firearms Minimum Sentence: 2 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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AiiA wrote: Looks like it

AiiA wrote:

Looks like it is true:

Prisoner - ARTHUR EUGENE SHELTON

Current Status: Prisoner Earliest Release Date: 10/17/2031
Assigned Location: Earnest C. Brooks Correctional Facility Maximum Discharge Date: 10/17/2051

Sentence 1
Offense: Homicide - Murder, Second Degree Minimum Sentence: 25 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

Sentence 2
Offense: Weapons - Felony Firearms Minimum Sentence: 2 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

 

Did you hack the FBI files or something? 


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Yeah he haxored ;p   No,

Yeah he haxored ;p

 

No, most counties have their criminal court records online and open to the public (tho at least in mine they make it somewhat hard to fine, but its there).   


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AiiA wrote: Looks like it

AiiA wrote:

Looks like it is true:

Michigan prison

Prisoner - ARTHUR EUGENE SHELTON

Current Status: Prisoner Earliest Release Date: 10/17/2031
Assigned Location: Earnest C. Brooks Correctional Facility Maximum Discharge Date: 10/17/2051

Sentence 1
Offense: Homicide - Murder, Second Degree Minimum Sentence: 25 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

Sentence 2
Offense: Weapons - Felony Firearms Minimum Sentence: 2 years 0 months 0 days
Court File#: 056409-01 Date of Offense: 10/18/2004
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 12/19/2005

 

Link?

 Perhaps I was wrong, it has been known to happen. 

 

ttdm.blogspot.com


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This story got no media

This story got no media attention.

 That's so straaaangeeee. 


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Why would it get media

Why would it get media attention?  It's just one homicide out of the approximately 20,000 that happen each year in the US.  Let's face it, if this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom_murder

isn't getting much media coverage then why would one eccentric moron shooting someone?

This story is no better than the creationist quote mining that goes on.  For a start, the American Atheists are quick to bleat about mistreatment but what the hell were they doing there in the first place?  They guy's dead, it's not as if he needed support.

One idiot shooting an atheist doesn't make all theists bad.  I'm going to bet you that the judge who gave him 25 to 45 years is a Christian.

Sensationalist crap.  That's all. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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The Patrician wrote: Why

The Patrician wrote:

Why would it get media attention? It's just one homicide out of the approximately 20,000 that happen each year in the US. Let's face it, if this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom_murder

isn't getting much media coverage then why would one eccentric moron shooting someone?

This story is no better than the creationist quote mining that goes on. For a start, the American Atheists are quick to bleat about mistreatment but what the hell were they doing there in the first place? They guy's dead, it's not as if he needed support.

One idiot shooting an atheist doesn't make all theists bad. I'm going to bet you that the judge who gave him 25 to 45 years is a Christian.

Sensationalist crap. That's all.

The point of this post was NOT to say, "look at what all the christians do". Rather it was to illustrate that in a thread where a theist asked for ONE example of a christian committing an act of violence against a non-believer for the sole reason of their lack of belief this article was presented and summarily ignored.

The simple fact is when something like this incident is cited the 'no true scotsman fallacy' pops up, or there is denial whether it is true but there is no addressing the fact that this DOES happen. There are faithful believers who use their faith as the justification for heinous acts, whether they are crazy or not.

The judge may have been christian, the murderer may have been bat-shit crazy, there are many other murders committed each year, this says nothing about others of faith... an en masse flood of rationalizations begin. This does nothing to negate the fact that this kind of thing happens, so for a theist to climb on the pedestal and claim it never does, then rationalize it away when presented with the fact that is does is dishonest. The theist should simply admit it does happen but is abhorrent in any case.


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Sorry, BGH, I think I

Sorry, BGH, I think I ignored your point of posting this and got sidetracked.  I would like to hear from some theists on this one, though.  Yes, crazy is crazy, but the fact remains that these types of crimes do happen - SPECIFICALLY because of religious beliefs.

sooooo.....*bump* 


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This is horrible! If this

This is horrible! If this happened here it would be top story in the news. We don't have as high a homicide rate in this country, nor do we have as high a per centage of fundies.

 


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Uh... What about the

Uh... What about the inquisition? Crusades? Salem witch trials? WWII? WWI? -.-


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I actually remember hearing

I actually remember hearing about this when it happened.  I was surprised that it didn't get more press, especially in the atheist circles I was moving around in.  I remember posting something about it elsewhere, and we talked about it briefly, but besides that I didn't hear anything about it.

 When I was reading about it initially, the shooter made some comment to the police that he had had an argument about the existence of god with the guy, and asked if he'd be willing to admit that god existed.  When he refused to admit god existed, the shooter got his gun and shot him.  Later on, after he called the police and was in custody, he commented that "maybe god doesn't exist...I don't know" or something like that.

It reminds me of those people who say that without their belief in god, they would simply murder, rape, etc because there would be no fear of god to stop them.  Those kinds of people chill my spine, because it shows that it is only fear of eternal torture that stops some people from doing harm.  Those types of brain-abnormalities, one would think, would be either naturally selected against, if not sexually selected against...except that the fear of Hell has made some people who don't naturally feel empathy for others behave because of said fear.

Apparently sociopaths have been hiding behind the fear of god long enough to pass on those traits.  Just another reason to try and end theism, I guess

 Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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ShaunPhilly wrote: I

ShaunPhilly wrote:

I actually remember hearing about this when it happened. I was surprised that it didn't get more press, especially in the atheist circles I was moving around in. I remember posting something about it elsewhere, and we talked about it briefly, but besides that I didn't hear anything about it.

When I was reading about it initially, the shooter made some comment to the police that he had had an argument about the existence of god with the guy, and asked if he'd be willing to admit that god existed. When he refused to admit god existed, the shooter got his gun and shot him. Later on, after he called the police and was in custody, he commented that "maybe god doesn't exist...I don't know" or something like that.

It reminds me of those people who say that without their belief in god, they would simply murder, rape, etc because there would be no fear of god to stop them. Those kinds of people chill my spine, because it shows that it is only fear of eternal torture that stops some people from doing harm. Those types of brain-abnormalities, one would think, would be either naturally selected against, if not sexually selected against...except that the fear of Hell has made some people who don't naturally feel empathy for others behave because of said fear.

Apparently sociopaths have been hiding behind the fear of god long enough to pass on those traits. Just another reason to try and end theism, I guess

Shaun

 

Wow.  That's a stretch. Ending theism will eliminate sociopathy? So if I can find a sociopathic athiest, we can conclude that atheism should be eliminated?


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wavefreak

wavefreak wrote:
ShaunPhilly wrote:

I actually remember hearing about this when it happened. I was surprised that it didn't get more press, especially in the atheist circles I was moving around in. I remember posting something about it elsewhere, and we talked about it briefly, but besides that I didn't hear anything about it.

When I was reading about it initially, the shooter made some comment to the police that he had had an argument about the existence of god with the guy, and asked if he'd be willing to admit that god existed. When he refused to admit god existed, the shooter got his gun and shot him. Later on, after he called the police and was in custody, he commented that "maybe god doesn't exist...I don't know" or something like that.

It reminds me of those people who say that without their belief in god, they would simply murder, rape, etc because there would be no fear of god to stop them. Those kinds of people chill my spine, because it shows that it is only fear of eternal torture that stops some people from doing harm. Those types of brain-abnormalities, one would think, would be either naturally selected against, if not sexually selected against...except that the fear of Hell has made some people who don't naturally feel empathy for others behave because of said fear.

Apparently sociopaths have been hiding behind the fear of god long enough to pass on those traits. Just another reason to try and end theism, I guess

Shaun

 

Wow.  That's a stretch. Ending theism will eliminate sociopathy? So if I can find a sociopathic athiest, we can conclude that atheism should be eliminated?

Actually, what he meant was more on the lines of "ending theism will reveal existing socipoathy". His point was this fear of aternal punishment constitutes an artificial barrier to keep certain heinous acts at bay. Sometimes, though, this barrier isn't strong enough, or is reversed, thus the problem above.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


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Basically Wave, what these

Basically Wave, what these guys are saying we will be able to identify sociopaths, they will be sexually selected against, the abnormalities which can cause such harm will cease to exist. Theism may keep it at bay, confine it and hide it, but the traits remain because the difference will not be noted, people may not know their partner has sociopathic tendencies because fear will prevent him from acting on them, whilst it is confined it is not prevented. When a sociopath becomes an atheist he is no longer afraid and it may at first lead to them performing all sorts of heinous crimes, however no one wants to sleep with a nutter never mind procreate with them. The tendency will be wiped out within generations.


wavefreak
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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

 

Wow. That's a stretch. Ending theism will eliminate sociopathy? So if I can find a sociopathic athiest, we can conclude that atheism should be eliminated?

Actually, what he meant was more on the lines of "ending theism will reveal existing socipoathy". His point was this fear of aternal punishment constitutes an artificial barrier to keep certain heinous acts at bay. Sometimes, though, this barrier isn't strong enough, or is reversed, thus the problem above.

 

This is so laughable as to almost not merit a response. Sociopathy (which technically is not an official diagnosis) is characterized by a complete lack of ANY morality. Sociopaths essentially have no concience. How can someone with no concience have ANY sense of guilt let alone connect that to god, heaven and hell?


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wavefreak wrote: This is

wavefreak wrote:
This is so laughable as to almost not merit a response. Sociopathy (which technically is not an official diagnosis) is characterized by a complete lack of ANY morality. Sociopaths essentially have no concience. How can someone with no concience have ANY sense of guilt let alone connect that to god, heaven and hell?

So are you saying the murderer in the article was a 'real' christian, because he connected his actions to god, and hell? 


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wavefreak

wavefreak wrote:
Rigor_OMortis wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

 

Wow. That's a stretch. Ending theism will eliminate sociopathy? So if I can find a sociopathic athiest, we can conclude that atheism should be eliminated?

Actually, what he meant was more on the lines of "ending theism will reveal existing socipoathy". His point was this fear of aternal punishment constitutes an artificial barrier to keep certain heinous acts at bay. Sometimes, though, this barrier isn't strong enough, or is reversed, thus the problem above.

 

This is so laughable as to almost not merit a response. Sociopathy (which technically is not an official diagnosis) is characterized by a complete lack of ANY morality. Sociopaths essentially have no concience. How can someone with no concience have ANY sense of guilt let alone connect that to god, heaven and hell?
I'm not buying either of this, sorry. I don't think sociopaths hide behind religion. Is there any proof that they do? I know that quite a few schizophrenics have religious based delusions but I'm not a psychologist, so I could be wrong. Also, Sociopathy absolutely IS an official diagnosis.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


wavefreak
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more on

more on sociopaths/psychopaths

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

 

 


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I doubt sociopathic

I doubt sociopathic tendancies would be removed from humanity within generations of the abandoment of religion. To say so is to assume that what causes sociopathic tendancies is purely genetic; likely a much disputed claim. I have read no research on this particular condition but the psychologists still can't determine conclusively what causes conditions such as depression or schizophrenia. I'd imagine there's a similar situation with sociopathics, though I could be wrong.


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wavefreak wrote: more on

wavefreak wrote:

more on sociopaths/psychopaths

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html

 

 

Was this in response to my post? Because the link provides evidence that sociopathy is indeed a legitimate diagnosis, which is what I said. (unless I missed something - I did read somewhat quickly)

Anyway, I don't think the shooter was a sociopath and I don't think religion protects sociopaths, in a general sense.

Any psychologists out there for with input? Again, these are just my opinions, I don't feel comfortable talking about something I'm not entirely sure of.

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Quote: This is so laughable

Quote:
This is so laughable as to almost not merit a response. Sociopathy (which technically is not an official diagnosis) is characterized by a complete lack of ANY morality. Sociopaths essentially have no concience. How can someone with no concience have ANY sense of guilt let alone connect that to god, heaven and hell?

Now now, it's not the case to take it directly to that level. Of course a decared sociopath wouldn't have any remorse in doing evil. I'm talking about lesser sociopathic behavior that is transmitted as a pattern and that, at a certain point, through many iterations of atavism, generates behavior of the type that is described by BGH in the article.

I'm sure you would agree that sociopathic behavior shoud be dealt with accordingly, wouldn't you?

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BGH wrote: The point of

BGH wrote:
The point of this post was NOT to say, "look at what all the christians do". Rather it was to illustrate that in a thread where a theist asked for ONE example of a christian committing an act of violence against a non-believer for the sole reason of their lack of belief this article was presented and summarily ignored.

The simple fact is when something like this incident is cited the 'no true scotsman fallacy' pops up, or there is denial whether it is true but there is no addressing the fact that this DOES happen. There are faithful believers who use their faith as the justification for heinous acts, whether they are crazy or not.

The judge may have been christian, the murderer may have been bat-shit crazy, there are many other murders committed each year, this says nothing about others of faith... an en masse flood of rationalizations begin. This does nothing to negate the fact that this kind of thing happens, so for a theist to climb on the pedestal and claim it never does, then rationalize it away when presented with the fact that is does is dishonest. The theist should simply admit it does happen but is abhorrent in any case.

 

Fair comment.  Agreed. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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Rigor_OMortis wrote: I'm

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

I'm sure you would agree that sociopathic behavior shoud be dealt with accordingly, wouldn't you?

 

Well as long as they are theists it's ok.

 

Seriously, linking violence to theism is a red herring. Violence is rooted in our evolutionary past and is almost certainly much, much older than theism.  Removing theism will not address the root cause - that we are violent by nature. All theism has done throughout history is provide a convenient justification for violence. Without addressing our basic capacity for violence, other justifications will arise.

 

I know theists that are genuinely and actively involved in promoting justice, love, compassion, and in general positive contributions to society. I also know theists whom labelling them ass-holes would be generous. The same with atheists. One thing I've noticed as I get older, there are some people that care about making the world a better place and some people that only care for themselves. I have seen these types of people in every setting I've ever been in - regardless of their beliefs and intellectual capacity.

Some people care. And some people are ass holes. 


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BGH wrote: The point of

BGH wrote:

The point of this post was NOT to say, "look at what all the christians do". Rather it was to illustrate that in a thread where a theist asked for ONE example of a christian committing an act of violence against a non-believer for the sole reason of their lack of belief this article was presented and summarily ignored.

The simple fact is when something like this incident is cited the 'no true scotsman fallacy' pops up, or there is denial whether it is true but there is no addressing the fact that this DOES happen. There are faithful believers who use their faith as the justification for heinous acts, whether they are crazy or not.

Let's try to come around back to topic.

As asked in the quote above, why do some theists perpetuate denial that christians could be guilty of heinous crimes in the name of faith, then when presented with evidence of an instance, resort to 'no true scotsman fallacies' or other rationalizations to divert the fact that these things CAN be done in the name of god. Such things can be done for all sorts of reasons.

Why the denial that such people exist in the theistic community? 


wavefreak
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BGH wrote: Why the denial

BGH wrote:

Why the denial that such people exist in the theistic community?

 I wish I knew. Anyone that denies this fact is loopy, IMHO.


ShaunPhilly
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Well, I certainly was not

Well, I certainly was not trying to spark a side debate.  My comment was not meant in complete seriousness, but in retrospect I think it might be a fair question.

I'm not a psychologist either, so don't have any input that would be authoritative in any way.  I would just add that religion does protect those people who aren't moral fro reasons of empathy, but rather out of fear of punishment.  Whether those people are 'sociopaths' or not I don't know. 

Further, when someone realizes that god-belief is unwarrented and thus act unethically, it shows that it was not ethics they were ever interested in, but rather a reward/ avoidance of punishment.

Shaun 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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Quote: Well as long as they

Quote:
Well as long as they are theists it's ok.

 

Seriously, linking violence to theism is a red herring. Violence is rooted in our evolutionary past and is almost certainly much, much older than theism.  Removing theism will not address the root cause - that we are violent by nature. All theism has done throughout history is provide a convenient justification for violence. Without addressing our basic capacity for violence, other justifications will arise.

Glad you understand the point. Indeed, not all theists are bad, actually, I'd say that the vast majority aren't. You do understand that religion is a convenient justification, now add this to my strong belief that religion is a convenient method of control and obedience, and I hope you'll understand my position.

Quote:
Some people care. And some people are ass holes.

Can't fight that. It was, is and will be this way, though I hope it will not apply in the future.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


wavefreak
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Rigor_OMortis wrote: Glad

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Glad you understand the point. Indeed, not all theists are bad, actually, I'd say that the vast majority aren't. You do understand that religion is a convenient justification, now add this to my strong belief that religion is a convenient method of control and obedience, and I hope you'll understand my position.

 

I only have to look at the Inquisition to find support for this position. Sad but true. Religion has and continues to be used for such things.